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Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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  • Options
    Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    edited September 2019
    Dizzy said:

    This means champions like Black Widow, Warlock, etc. would be eligible for adjustments, but it's not supposed to affect champions entering the basic before October (e.g., Cull, Ronin, Ebony Maw, Namor, Invisible Woman), who were also conveniently the champions released BEFORE your announcement, when people already went hard to pull them.

    Yeah but doesn't the mention of tweaking of Human Torch and Annihilus given you an indication of those champs that come after him being looked at to be tweaked?

    C'mon dude.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do
    I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    dot_ditto said:

    .

    GroundedWisdom said:


    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie.

    Again with this claim ..
    again with the simple, respectively request ..
    "Please show US the numbers."

    We'd like to see that data please.

    thanks!
    I don't have the power to do so. You're free to ask them, but I highly doubt they're about to release the code.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,687 Guardian
    edited September 2019
    DrZola said:

    I think you lost me with that last sentence.

    Champs that damage like Cull (and I won’t name them because the last thing I want to do is put them in the crosshairs, although I’m confident you know which champs I mean) aren’t champs in the actual game played by actual players?

    Dr. Zola

    That should be parsed as saying "every other champion that you think can generate the same or more damage as Cull isn't actually generating the same or more damage as Cull when you look at the activity of all players playing those champions in the game."

    What specifically they are measuring when they refer to "outdamaging" is a separate question. There are a number of possibilities. Simply adding up all the damage a champion does in the game wouldn't be reasonable for a number of reasons. It is more likely an adjusted damage output relative to certain constraints.

    Is it possible the datamining is looking at the wrong thing? That's possible. The problem is virtually every game developer I'm aware of considers data mining to be highly proprietary: they don't share the data or precise methodology with anyone, sometimes not even with their own designers. That makes it difficult to contradict the data, or convince the devs they should ignore it. In all my time working with game developers I've only managed that trick once, and it required an arsenal of information I don't think even exists at the moment for MCOC.
  • Options
    Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    Also on the flipside, Ebony Maw owners are going to get a buff, they're gonna be happy with that.

    You can't have it both ways.

    If some champs are going to get a buff, some can be tuned down. Kabam doesn't get more money for doing this, they're just making sure the game is well balanced and not out of whack.

    I still don't see where the issue is.

    Cull's still going to be one of the top damage dealer in the game. Just be happy you've pulled him. Spare the thoughts for those who don't even have him.
  • Options
    KoperBoyKoperBoy Posts: 210 ★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    So utility doesn't mean a thing?
  • Options
    M1k0rinM1k0rin Posts: 605 ★★
    Can u guys just in 1 time announce all champ that u want to nerf? If u announce it one by one, and before that player already spend their money and resources that they collect for long time to rank those champ and only to find those champ getting nerf and didnt get any rdt... Thats super not fair.

    Except if u guys will give refund and rdt for all champ that u nerf, but come on be realistic, you wont.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do
    I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.
    I thing I’ve learnt about numbers is that they don’t lie but they can be deceiving, and this is a prime example of this
    More is more. Higher than any other is higher than any other. Even the most inept Dev (...and I'm certainly not implying they are.) can tell the difference between one number being higher than another.
  • Options
    Nichoas_1Nichoas_1 Posts: 142 ★★
    When you guys first announced “balance changes” I knew what you really meant. You meant if you thought champions were overpowered that you would be nerfing them one by one. Well you guys have not disappointed. What you have done is upset the majority of your player base though. Let me tell you something Mikey, I personally spent to obtain my 6* cull obsidian. I barely use him but figured at rank 2 he’d be way more practical in use. So I was saving to rank him after spending to get him. Then I see this. YOU CAN NOT LET PEOPLE SPEND HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON CAVALIER CRYSTALS THEN RUIN THE PRODUCT PEOPLE WERE PURCHASING!!!! This is nothing short of ROBBERY. I promise if you nerf my only new meta 6* champion that I will legitimately wipe this game off my phone and NEVER play it again. Are you prepared to start losing all your spenders? Cause that’s about to happen. No one wants to waste money on a product that won’t work as it originally was put out on the shelves unless you improve it. That’s not what you’re doing with this champion. I promise you I’ll be leaving and I won’t be the only one. Stop messing with champs that are already good because you might lose some money on the back end. That’s shady business, Mikey. You made your money on the front end. You don’t get to mess with things like this. Period. Don’t do it. Heed the warning or you’re gonna feel it in your pockets
  • Options
    trey92008trey92008 Posts: 101 ★
    edited September 2019
    Kabam Miike said:

    Hey all,

    I know there will be a lot of questions about Rank Down Tickets and Compensation for changes, and there already are some. As a reminder, we did say that we will approach these on a case by case basis, and will not be able to make any comments on this yet, because we don't know what Cull's balance pass will look like at all yet.

    Also, remember that these changes are restricted to Tuning updates, and are will not change any abilities or utility. Our intention is that if you love your Champion now, you should still love them after.

    Kabam Miike said:

    Hey all,

    I know there will be a lot of questions about Rank Down Tickets and Compensation for changes, and there already are some. As a reminder, we did say that we will approach these on a case by case basis, and will not be able to make any comments on this yet, because we don't know what Cull's balance pass will look like at all yet.

    Also, remember that these changes are restricted to Tuning updates, and are will not change any abilities or utility. Our intention is that if you love your Champion now, you should still love them after.

    We love the champs we rank because of the dmg / utility / usefulness they posses at the time of rank up.

    Been playing since the beginning. I can deal with 12.0, the constant bugs, champs being released then changed AFTER their feature cav crystals are released.. but changing a champs usefulness after I’ve used rare resources to rank them up is the last straw.

    This is how you alienate a fan base my friend. I implore you to reconsider, this is a course of action I will not tolerate.
  • Options
    NiteAndDaeNiteAndDae Posts: 670 ★★★
    This comes AFTER you had the cull crystals on sale and people whaled out? The optics are terrible on this one. Honestly, forget the RDTs, I would want a refund on the crystals bought.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    KoperBoy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    So utility doesn't mean a thing?
    Not when you're talking about raw Damage numbers, no. The statement was that he does more than the other heavy dealers.
  • Options
    Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    xxxOmega_Redxxx1 said:

    I spent $200 on Cav Crystals for a chance to get Cull. I didn’t. I knew about his damage output due to your CCP. If I knew he was going to get nerfed, I wouldn’t have spent that money. Am I going to get compensation...no. Am I ever going to spend money for new Champions ever again...no.

    This business model is borderline criminal. Make a highly desirable product, advertise the highly desired product, make lots of money, change the product to be less desirable, then make a new desirable product and repeat.

    So the fact that they're risking people spending less on Cav Crystals should tell you that they care more about the balance of the game than making more money.

    They could very easily come up with OP champs every 2 weeks (with no promise of a retune), and rake in $millions.

    But instead they have signalled that they will tweak them - this surely is gonna make people spend less.

    But they're doing it anyway so that the game is balanced going forward and there is longevity.

    How can you blame them for that?
  • Options
    HSenpaiHSenpai Posts: 92 ★
    JohnHS said:

    HSenpai said:

    While making changes pls buff Claire. Her debuffs are insanely weak and make her almost unusable against a lot of champs. Her only redeeming factor is a half decent regen that makes up for her low hp, low armour and low resistances. Pls make her a more viable champ for endgame content

    She's not a DOT champ. She's got solid base damage, her SP3 actually hits very hard at 20 charges, she's got power control and massive regen, plus a fantastic nullify and a bunch of immunities. She's fine as she is. Damage isn't everything (which is why the Cull nerf is stupid. Utility is more important.)
    It is important if u bring her to AW. What happens if the defender has will power. It’s a tonne of free healing for them. It’s worse than joe fixit was hitting ppl for 50k hits and then still being full health because wp was stronger than his bleeds. Claire has 15 dmg per tic debuffs. Gives defender insta heal :(
  • Options
    borntohulaborntohula Posts: 447 ★★★
    I’m sorry. This is the final straw for me as well. After thinking and comparing for ages, I have very recently taken up Cull to R5, and I can assure you he’s a one trick pony. He deals damage. At that, he is really, really good. But he’s not game breaking in any way, shape or form. In fact, after having ranked him I don’t even think he’s necessarily in the top five. Useful for monthly events, sure makes light of those, and some tough fights after ramping him up, but not the be all, end all champion that some others (Blade springs to mind) were in the past. So many champs are objectively better.

    If this is yet another investment gone awry [I also took bugged Supreme as a six star to rank two] that’s finally it for me. I’m done. I don’t even want to go into great detail on this subject. It’s just not the way a game should be run. I find it entirely unbelievable that nobody in development knew how hard this champ would hit. That’s just inconceivable to me. If I design a jet engine, I shouldn't be surprised if it can power a plane.

    Barring rank down tickets and additional compensation for anyone who spent a ton of time and/or units to get Cull, I will not spend another eurocent on this game. Pinky promise.
This discussion has been closed.