general thread to comment on rebalances [Merged Threads]

Not sure if i'm blind or not but didn't see a link to comment just the individual champ rebalances. Was wondering if there was 1 combined for discussion purposes.

Comments

Colonaut123

I'm gonna be very honest with you guys here. You're right that this shouldn't have taken this long, and these changes are very small. But this was done as a direct result of the reaction that players had to the announcement of Cull's rebalance. We always tried to make it clear that rebalance changes are meant to be small, and only make a few changes to numbers here and there, but understandably, players didn't know what that meant for Cull, and were scared of what it would be in the end.

So, we wanted to make sure that we made you all more comfortable with the idea of Balance changes, and show you why we do them. Human Torch and Annihilus's balance changes were basically ready by the time we announced we're putting a pause on it. But in order to gather the data and present it in a player facing manner for all of these Champs, we needed to take some time.

We made it very clear that these are not Reworks, and that these changes should not change your perception of a Champion if you love them.

Going forward, if our players feel they're more comfortable with these, maybe we will be much quicker with them, but from what many of you have told me, you like the context, you like the data, and you like that we took our time to actually think about the changes.

Small is fine for Cull and HT, but bad for Maw and Annihilus. I pulled two times 5* Ebony Maw and he's absolutely useless. The ramp-up is too long and not rewarding enough. The data showed he's bad and he remains there. Are we a joke to Kabam?

Zuko_ILC

I'm gonna be very honest with you guys here. You're right that this shouldn't have taken this long, and these changes are very small. But this was done as a direct result of the reaction that players had to the announcement of Cull's rebalance. We always tried to make it clear that rebalance changes are meant to be small, and only make a few changes to numbers here and there, but understandably, players didn't know what that meant for Cull, and were scared of what it would be in the end.

So, we wanted to make sure that we made you all more comfortable with the idea of Balance changes, and show you why we do them. Human Torch and Annihilus's balance changes were basically ready by the time we announced we're putting a pause on it. But in order to gather the data and present it in a player facing manner for all of these Champs, we needed to take some time.

We made it very clear that these are not Reworks, and that these changes should not change your perception of a Champion if you love them.

Going forward, if our players feel they're more comfortable with these, maybe we will be much quicker with them, but from what many of you have told me, you like the context, you like the data, and you like that we took our time to actually think about the changes.
Small is fine for Cull and HT, but bad for Maw and Annihilus. I pulled two times 5* Ebony Maw and he's absolutely useless. The ramp-up is too long and not rewarding enough. The data showed he's bad and he remains there. Are we a joke to Kabam?

Not every champ is supposed to be great on offense. Maw is a great defender.

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Neotwism

@Zuko_ILC There is a big difference in a champ that's great on offense and a champ that has extremely limited offensive capabilities. Maw is so poor on offense that there is no reason anyone would waste a roster spot on him. The rebalance did nothing to change anyone's perception of him. When 3* champs can do more damage than a 5* champ there is a problem. The rebalance did nothing to correct this problem. He doesn't have to be great at attacking, but he should be able to hit harder than 3* champs.

Whathappened

@Zuko_ILC There is a big difference in a champ that's great on offense and a champ that has extremely limited offensive capabilities. Maw is so poor on offense that there is no reason anyone would waste a roster spot on him. The rebalance did nothing to change anyone's perception of him. When 3* champs can do more damage than a 5* champ there is a problem. The rebalance did nothing to correct this problem. He doesn't have to be great at attacking, but he should be able to hit harder than 3* champs.

There should never, I repeat never, be 5 star champs that can be out damaged by several 3 stars. I realized that some powerful champs even as a 3 can skew results but his damage is so horrible he's almost like having a 3 * with a high health pool. That's a shame.

Zuko_ILC

@Zuko_ILC There is a big difference in a champ that's great on offense and a champ that has extremely limited offensive capabilities. Maw is so poor on offense that there is no reason anyone would waste a roster spot on him. The rebalance did nothing to change anyone's perception of him. When 3* champs can do more damage than a 5* champ there is a problem. The rebalance did nothing to correct this problem. He doesn't have to be great at attacking, but he should be able to hit harder than 3* champs.
There should never, I repeat never, be 5 star champs that can be out damaged by several 3 stars. I realized that some powerful champs even as a 3 can skew results but his damage is so horrible he's almost like having a 3 * with a high health pool. That's a shame.

His damage isn't that bad. Also if you know how to use him the opponent can literally never gain a bar of power. Just because you don't know how to use a champ to take full advantage of their abilities doesn't make them a bad champ. Hes actually quite fun to play watching the cpu miss you constantly and punishing them.

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Beels

this healing nerf for namor is a big joke. now he heals 1.5% on average which is close to negligible you may as well remove it all together. champion's sp1 heals about 4%. and red hulk's sp2 heals 5%. if you want to balance a character you bring him down in line with top equivalent , not bring him down to the ground. this is called pure nerfing.

Voltolos

this healing nerf for namor is a big joke. now he heals 1.5% on average which is close to negligible you may as well remove it all together. champion's sp1 heals about 4%. and red hulk's sp2 heals 5%. if you want to balance a character you bring him down in line with top equivalent , not bring him down to the ground. this is called pure nerfing.

Namor is way better than Champion in every other regard and neither Rulk nor Champ can use their regen without sacrificing some damage output

Beels

i am not arguing who is better. i gave example of 2 champs who have small heals and their healing is better than namor. and speaking of losing damage output, they already reduced his damage output.

my pt is i got a champ. they said his damage is op and they need to balance his damage. fine. so why did they nerf his healing too when it is average at best?

DNA3000

this healing nerf for namor is a big joke. now he heals 1.5% on average which is close to negligible you may as well remove it all together. champion's sp1 heals about 4%. and red hulk's sp2 heals 5%. if you want to balance a character you bring him down in line with top equivalent , not bring him down to the ground. this is called pure nerfing.

1. Red Hulk's heal is triggered by using Special 2, which means Red Hulk can't trigger that heal nearly as often as Namor (or The Champion) can trigger his heal.

2. While The Champion triggers his heal on SP1, that comes at the cost of a persistent charge which means in effect The Champion is trading damage for heal when he heals. Namor loses nothing when he triggers a heal, as the heal happens automatically when any special attack is used. Furthermore The Champion gets no heal at all if he has less than four persistent charges. To consistently have four or more persistent charges on attack while burning charges to get heals from SP1 generally means you're refraining from using any other special attacks, which is another offensive disadvantage.

3. Namor has an additional advantage in that he has the ability to trigger his specials more often than normal when in Imperious Rex mode, which means that Namor gets to use his heal even more often than The Champion. This is separate from the fact that Namor's heal triggers on any special attack and not just on one specific one.

Comparing the numbers out of context is simply not a reasonable comparison between any champions much less these three.

DNA3000

i am not arguing who is better. i gave example of 2 champs who have small heals and their healing is better than namor. and speaking of losing damage output, they already reduced his damage output.

my pt is i got a champ. they said his damage is op and they need to balance his damage. fine. so why did they nerf his healing too when it is average at best?

GroundedWisdom

Which means he is essentially indestructible when used properly. That's not exactly a goal.

RogerRabs

i am not arguing who is better. i gave example of 2 champs who have small heals and their healing is better than namor. and speaking of losing damage output, they already reduced his damage output.

my pt is i got a champ. they said his damage is op and they need to balance his damage. fine. so why did they nerf his healing too when it is average at best?

Maybe I was not picking up on something in game, but his regen with suicides on never felt all that potent. Their data is hard to understand without knowing what methods were used to gather it.

DNA3000

i am not arguing who is better. i gave example of 2 champs who have small heals and their healing is better than namor. and speaking of losing damage output, they already reduced his damage output.

my pt is i got a champ. they said his damage is op and they need to balance his damage. fine. so why did they nerf his healing too when it is average at best?

Maybe I was not picking up on something in game, but his regen with suicides on never felt all that potent. Their data is hard to understand without knowing what methods were used to gather it.

I'm simply stating their reasons for making the change: the poster implied Kabam only mentioned his damage and not his healing, but the announcement lays out the case for healing being much higher than intended.

But I can't specifically make any statements about how correct their data or analysis is, because they haven't addressed any of my questions regarding the data. I actually have more questions, but it seems pointless to ask more when they are contingent on the first three and Kabam has been completely silent on them.

I can theorize, however, that there might be a couple things going on. First, Namor's heal might be benefiting from Angela syndrome. It is easy to use, it is just there, it requires no special tactics, so at least for many players the heal gets leveraged more than some other champions, like the aforementioned Red Hulk. Second, advanced players might be getting a lot of mileage out of Imperius Rex, which can dramatically increase the amount of specials used. Third, their data shows heal rate, not total healing. If Namor is ending fights much quicker than most champs, that could amplify the healing rate.

Consider a high end player driving Namor. You might expect that many fights are ending when they reach Imperius Rex and then spamming specials rapidly. This ends the fight, and at that point they might have generated a lot of healing right at the end of the fight. A short fight with a burst of healing could generate very high (relatively speaking) Heal/Sec numbers, even if the actual amount of heal was lower than other champions.

One last thing, if you look at the graph it appears to me that while Namor is among the top regen champs in terms of ranking (it looks like way more champs are below Namor than above Namor) his healing isn't among the top regen champs in terms of actual healing. The strongest healers in the data seem to have up to twice his healing. So Namor's healing appears to be about in the middle of the range of healing that exists. To put it another way, Namor's healing isn't wildly higher than the average healer, instead Namor beats most champions healing by a moderate amount. So when you're watching Namor's heal in-game, you might not see anything dramatically higher than other champions. The fact that it is as good or better - even by a small amount - than most champions is the thing that concerns the devs, because Namor shouldn't be better than most champs on something he wasn't supposed to be particularly good at in the first place.

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Beels

because they said his healing among the highest then it's true for sure. according to their charts (and ofcourse data can't be biased when you are data mining) namor's healing is almost the median in all scenarios which is slightly above the average. when you nerf an attribute it must be op which is outside of the chart or at least on top of the chart. his healing was ok nothing op so why did they make it bad.

Beels

Namor's healing is strongest when he is low on health. and i understand that scenario terrifies kabam because one can revive 20% and heal up to 50% fast which is bad for business. a good solution for all is to make it a flat 3% all around.

GroundedWisdom

I doubt it has anything to do with Pot sales.

Zuko_ILC

@Zuko_ILC There is a big difference in a champ that's great on offense and a champ that has extremely limited offensive capabilities. Maw is so poor on offense that there is no reason anyone would waste a roster spot on him. The rebalance did nothing to change anyone's perception of him. When 3* champs can do more damage than a 5* champ there is a problem. The rebalance did nothing to correct this problem. He doesn't have to be great at attacking, but he should be able to hit harder than 3* champs.
There should never, I repeat never, be 5 star champs that can be out damaged by several 3 stars. I realized that some powerful champs even as a 3 can skew results but his damage is so horrible he's almost like having a 3 * with a high health pool. That's a shame.
His damage isn't that bad. Also if you know how to use him the opponent can literally never gain a bar of power. Just because you don't know how to use a champ to take full advantage of their abilities doesn't make them a bad champ. Hes actually quite fun to play watching the cpu miss you constantly and punishing them.
Please do show some examples of you using him the right way. I love the silly defense of awful champs saying if you just knew how to use them correctly they aren't bad. Nobody is saying he isn't fun, but fun doesnt equal effective and Maw is not an effective champ to use. You're welcome to put on a showcase and prove everyone wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

You can watch Brian Grant's video. It's already show cased. You're welcome to go on YouTube and do your own search. Honestly you want him buffed until you face him on defense then you will probably be one of the first ones saying he needs nerfed. Hes a defensive character in the game. If you want offensive character dont use him. It's pretty simple.

DNA3000

because they said his healing among the highest then it's true for sure. according to their charts (and ofcourse data can't be biased when you are data mining) namor's healing is almost the median in all scenarios which is slightly above the average. when you nerf an attribute it must be op which is outside of the chart or at least on top of the chart. his healing was ok nothing op so why did they make it bad.

According to the chart, Namor's healing is not near the median. As I stated above, it is near the middle of the range of healing represented. But that's not the median. And it isn't the average either. It is higher than most champions on the chart, which makes Namor among the highest in terms of their relative rank.

Of course there are questions surrounding the data, but you seem to be confused about what median and average mean. The median value is the value such that about half the champions would fall below that point and the other half above. Clearly, much fewer data points are above Namor as below. And the average value typically references the mean value, which is the sum of all the healing rates divided by the number of champions datamined. Namor lies about in the center of range of the data, which is in this context generally a meaningless statement to make. Basically, it says that there's some champs with much higher healing. Which would be significant if Namor was intended to be a strong healer, but immaterial if Namor was intended to have only moderate healing.

Your statement that "when you nerf an attribute it must be op" fails to account for the fact that it is champions that are balanced, not abilities. A champion is a collection of abilities that work together, and an ability that is fine on one champ might be too powerful on another champ. If your view of game balance was correct, we could make a champion by taking all of the abilities in the game that are the second strongest in their category and place all of them on one champion and he'd be fine, because none of his abilities would be "outside the chart" or "on top of the chart." But of course that's ridiculous. A champ designed to have strong power control should be near the top of the power control charts. But a champ designed to have other strong abilities and weak power control shouldn't suddenly be at the top of the power control charts and also at the top of the other charts he's intended to be strong on.

Bigdawg

My roster of about 30 5 star champions has about 6 god tier or above fighters. I am far far far from the "top 10%" of players. Like other have said above there are are so many OG toons that need revamped. (which makes up the majority of my roster) Howard the duck, iron patriot, both black Panthers, both daredevils ect. 80% or more of my 5 star roster will never go beyond rank 1 as they are because they have not been changed, either since their release, or to keep with the evolution of this game and have little to no utility/survivability in high end game content. Nor am I in a top tier alliance so as a ftp player resources are far to rare and to valuable to rank up every single one I get, which would be a near waste in long term play.

Beels

thanks for the statistics 101 reminder @DNA. but still it seems you got my pt.
regarding the other pt that a champ is a collection of abilities, it is exactly my argument but I am looking at it from a different angle. Namor was a fun champ he damages he heals he negates damage. then kabam said his damage is too op they need to rebalance it, they didn't mention anything about his healing. what they did they reduced his dps a little and destroyed his healing. this removed fun aspect of namor to me. I don't mind if they want to reduce his damage more. i just want him fun character again.

GroundedWisdom

People said the same thing about Cull. Increase BP if you're going to lower his output. Only, that's not the point of these. They have a relative standard they're using and they're making small adjustments based on their findings. I'm sure if you asked people what they wanted, they would want stronger Champs, more Regen, more Damage, more BP, etc.

Icejr

@Kabam Miike The Answer Is “Dont Do It”
Lol

Ebony maw Already Lost His Weight even with Buffs ,He was Deserve better i believe,

Who Knows Who Are coming Next to lose There Weight even with buffs 😜😜😜