After reading through all the information, which was surprising to see that in-depth and amount (good job Kabam), I feel like all the time invested in this whole process and reveal was very much... wasted?
The changes were always reported as being minor changes/tweaks to the champs and not champ breaking, but it all seems so minimal or trivial in some cases that the changes are just annoying. So all this anxiety and waiting, just to annoy the players, and then have them go through selling back champs and waiting to get them given back weeks later.
The general opinions on these changes aren't overwhelmingly negative or positive on any one champ, and are mostly a resounding "....eh ok I guess that's a kinda good or kinda bad change.... but.... why bother at all for most of this?".
I would say that the response to Cull's changes seem to be the most negative with the majority now looking at selling him back and not using him outside of Arena, which can't be the response Kabam was hoping for previously one of the MOST hyped champs to be released (major dropped ball there).
I would also say that the response to Human Torch;s seem to be the most positive, where they appropriately made changes to make their effort seem worth it.
I personally feel like this time invested should have been to drastically improve champs like what was done with Old Man Logan, Venom, Carnage, Colossus. Hate or love the changes made to those previously underperforming, you at least feel the scope of work completed is comparable to the time and hype around it. These changes feel like you took your car to Pimp My Ride, and when you got it back all they did was add a fake hood scoop and filled it up with Silver grade gas instead of Bronze.
Kabam largely focused on the wrong champs and the ones they rightfully should have been working on they didn't do enough to make them a hit with the players. The days of spending money, grinding arena and buying featured crystals is over, because if this is the process we have to look forward to for champs in the game then I'd rather just kind of coast through the game to get them without too much investment.... and hopefully that doesn't make me question why I'm playing a game I just want to coast through.
With the recent clears of Abyss, I'm now concerned that Kabam's going to focus their next re-balancing on the champs that were used to get through this content thought to take months for initial clears. Doctor Doom, Aegon might NOT BE WORKING AS INTENDED in the near future. Also Kabam might re-re-revisit Human Torch after seeing how INSANELY quickly he's able to meltdown Abyss Mephisto..... I N S A N E L Y Q U I C K L Y !!!!!!
Now.... get on to the more important work and buff the champ we all voted for... HULKBUSTER!!!!!! Get back some good PR on your name Kabam!!!!
@Kabam Miike@DNA3000 made a very important observation that you haven't responded to, I will keep tagging you till you do, something looks off about that stuff he pointed out. We need some clarity from you guys.
Far as the "data" I think it is skewed and you are not looking at it properly. I have used my 5/65 namor for months and can tell you his regen sucks, it only shows up when I am about to die..... To say it's over powered is hilarious. Then again, this is coming from the same group who said Abyss isn't meant to be completed in months, yet has been 100% in 36 hors. My point is, the people modifying , changing , representing the game are out of touch and its hilarious to the community. I can make just about graph/report look at certain way, the question is absolute/relative. I can prove Ketchup is more dangerous than creatine, I just have to look at certain data, use certain resources, omit certain information and I can make ketchup look horrible for the body.
Far as the rebalances, it is what it..... I am not mad at them. Cull is pointless beyond 6.1 unless you want to drain your units.
Maw - who cares, seriously?
A slight buff to torch, cool.
My issue is you/kabam think it is ok to do this / make changes without proper compensation. You are doing the BARE minimum.
What you should do: 1) Anyone who has got them/ranked them - give them a gift / compensation that is above avg. Here is some caviler crystals, here are some units, here are some sigs etc. This "sell your champ back" is weak and is beyond low level customer service.
2) Anyone sells them it turns into generic supplies - again, you are changing things b/c your dev team and testing team are not working with whoever is planning this game out and clearly there is disconnect between departments in your company. We shouldn't suffer in any way shape or form, or feel mislead. Cutting anyone's regen by 50% you have just opened the door for some huge issues down the road. Can't wait for doom to be nerfed or "toned down".
3) Listen to your player base and keep the regen the same for namor, seriously..... you should buff culls block prof....
4) Have more meetings with your development team, testing team etc. and you should hire 1/2 youtubers who play the game..... when things like "cyclops is the best player, abyss won't be beat for months, all heavy have the same cadence etc. are said, we lose 100% confidence there is a clue in the company driving this boat.
What you have done: 1) You have completely reinforced the slippery slope of sales/loot-box/bait and switch "feelings" and it will continue. I can't wait for 4-6 months when its time to tweak doom's block proficiency/power control etc. While its not a bait and switch b/c you didn't mess with anyone too much, you are walking up to the line.
When you tweaked namors regen it was just another example of you will do what you want and who cares. Personally, I can tell you I am going on a spending strike for the next 6 months. Y0u have eliminated all trust and at this point, it is not shame on you guys as a company, it is shame on me for spending money. Between how bots, the spending event and punishments were handled and now this... it just shows how reactionary you are as a company. I love the game, just done with giving money. When I pay you, I am voting I agree with the direction... this is entertainment. The fact I am annoyed by this, I can't spend a cent more.
I genuinely would say, if I felt like you guys went above and beyond in dealing with this, I would feel differently.
I have namor 5/65 sig 200 and Ill keep him
Cull 5/65 sign 90ish, Ill sell him and we won't ever go past that r3.
I'm generally okay with how this particular batch turned out. The only problem I have is this wording in the announcement: "All Champion rank up decisions you make are made with the knowledge that rebalance changes can occur down the road, and if compensation is given it may differ."
The biggest issue with all of this seems to be the long periods of not knowing what's going on, which champions are going to be targeted, and the general uneasiness a player may have when making rank up decisions. You all know that people either spend thousands of dollars, units they have spent time grinding, or arenas for days to obtain a certain new champ. Now you're confirming in this vague legalese that people still won't know which champions are being looked at, why they weren't tested effectively on release, how long a timeline may look like, and even not knowing if they will get their resources back similar to how you've done this batch. And as nice as it is that you've opened it up to giving back awakening gems and stones and dupes, people still spent thousands of dollars or time equivalent to obtain new awesome champs that may or may not function the same somewhere down the line.
The whole problem was the vagueness, the not knowing, the open ended overhanging possibility that if a new champion is awesome and powerful, that they may get changed. It leaves ambiguity on rank up decisions. It makes me still not want to buy any early access bundles, or cav crystals for new champs. I know I'm not alone on that feeling either.
So while I can say job well done overall on this rollout, there's still a giant question mark over every future champ and the initial problem of it all remains.
I haven’t had namor long and only ranked him to r4 because of the impending changes so haven’t used him much but from what I have seen the regen isn’t game altering so by halving it it’s going to be near useless, bit like red hulks on sp2. All it’s going to do is make it less desirable to run him with suicides. Not really sure why it was felt this change was needed despite all the graphs.
after people have run the changes for the trial period is there a final review? Or is this the final decision on changes and either take it or leave it?
This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.
If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming
I haven’t had namor long and only ranked him to r4 because of the impending changes so haven’t used him much but from what I have seen the regen isn’t game altering so by halving it it’s going to be near useless, bit like red hulks on sp2. All it’s going to do is make it less desirable to run him with suicides. Not really sure why it was felt this change was needed despite all the graphs.
after people have run the changes for the trial period
They said they would look at feedback after we've had a chance to use him but won't consider comments prior. Like we can't look at the champ we've been using and know that half the already weak regen is near pointless. Like you said makes it less desirable to run him with suicides despite being marketed as optimal to run with suicides.
I agree 100% they marketed him on the strength of his regen so it seems somewhat poor form to make a major change to that component I honestly don’t see how it adds to the rebalance but I guess people are just going to have to try it and see.
I feel like annihilus buff was not even a buff. As an owner of a 6* annihilus, I've tried to make him playable as an attacker but the numbers are too low. I can definitely say that he's still gonna be useless in offense, so it would be nice to maybe increase his initial attacking characteristics or increase duration of his debuffs to make him be able to convert them into fury
Links at the bottom of the Announcement post to the individual champion rebalance posts (which are being posted as "Spotlights" in that forum section).
Can't comment on most, but I'm disappointed that maw gets so little. He'll still be a complete joke on attack and, pending testing, will still be a pretty situational defender. Would have been nice to give him at least something like an offensive ability. Immune to reversed controls or something?
Something funny to point out...I have yet to see anyone use Cull or Namor in the Abyss. Seems to me if both of these champs are so OP, you would see them clearing paths in the Abyss. hmmm
The big problem I had with this information dump was that the individual champion rebalance information threads really came across as saying 'hey we wanted the champ to be like this, here's the data that says they're not, and here's how we're gonna rebalance them to be closer to what we wanted. deal with it'. Or at least, that's how the wording of it came across to me, and potentially others will feel the same way. I'd much appreciate it if Kabam looked at rewording future champion rework information threads to make it more apparent that they are seeking community opinion for and against the rework ideas, and that they may not represent the final ability rebalancing. This would probably mean you'd probably need to post the first draft of this information maybe as much as 3 months before the rebalancing changes are released (even if it's just say a 'we're thinking we want to make cull hit harder than he does now at the start of his ramp but not as hard as he currently does at the end of it' thread with a bit of data included). MAKE IT OBVIOUS THAT YOU WANT THE COMMUNITY TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS ON THESE IDEAS AND THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE CHANGES DEPENDING ON COMMUNITY FEEDBACK. Then the final draft for the balance changes are released at a similar time to now (about 2-4 weeks before the changes go live). Again, this round of rebalancing did come across as more of a 'here's the changes we're gonna make and that's final' announcement than any of the other big changes. I don't believe that this was your intent however, so I just want to say I think you may have come across the wrong way, and this is how I think you could improve this whole system so that your intent is not misinterpreted as much.
(lol there's probably a way I could have said this without it being as wordy or anything... oof I really need to get better at that. If someone could quote this post and make a TL;DR response, that would be much appreciated)
Something funny to point out...I have yet to see anyone use Cull or Namor in the Abyss. Seems to me if both of these champs are so OP, you would see them clearing paths in the Abyss. hmmm
Tbh I think that’s why they decided to nerf, I mean rebalance them cos they thought people would be using them to clear the Abyss so it’s quite funny in a way that no one is. Still annoying I opened loads of my t4 crystals to try get mutant cat to rank namor and as usual got every class but then traded about 21 of them with the trade in facility to finally get the 3 mutant t4cc I needed. It’s all that waste you don’t get back if you accept the chance to downgrade. But congratulations to the people who ranked Cull and get to get all their resources back 😁
I think I can speak for many people but overall impression to me is: "Is that what we're waiting for after six months and several post-phoning?". It is has been a real let-down. I can be wrong, but I truly wonder if the developers took it serious. Like, Annihilus is not even a buff at all.
Following the info released what are you guys all doing with your namors?
I think HT changes are good. Just needs that sig ability buff.
Inv woman needed a buff for sure.
Annihilus still won’t be touched. He needs another look
Cull. I never used him anyway but I think that block prof will always be a pain.
Ebony I would like to play as can imagine what it will do for him at this stage
My Namor is going to 5/65. That rebalancing is fine in my book. Others might disagree, but I understand what they did and why they did it. It's not gonna crush the character
Gonna +1 this.
My Namor has been 5/65 sig200 for a month or so now, and since then has gotten me through a good chunk of content with significantly fewer units spent (namely several paths in 6.1-6.2 and a unitless V2 exploration). In my eyes, he’s accomplished the purpose for which I ranked him, and I’d made my peace with the fact that he’d be tuned down.
But it looks like his rebalancing is fairer than I’d expected. I’m not too fussed about the regen decrease, as my main source of regen for Namor came from max WP + suicides while attacking. His increased ramp up time is something I’ll have to see for myself once the update goes live, but on paper it doesn’t seem too drastic a change at all. Pleasantly surprised.
I think that is an issue. Players who ranked him up and completed content with him, can now just regain their resources. In the meanwhile, I wil not have the same advantages in the future. That's why these rebalances should be released much earlier, so players have the least exploited benefit from it.
I think I can speak for many people but overall impression to me is: "Is that what we're waiting for after six months and several post-phoning?". It is has been a real let-down. I can be wrong, but I truly wonder if the developers took it serious. Like, Annihilus is not even a buff at all.
I'll agree that on paper, the Annihilus buff doesn't sound as impressive as it could be however I am willing to take it on faith that if after the Buffs go live and we're still not seeing that wow factor that the dev team was pushing for, it'd be a lot easier for them to tweak him up then to tweak him down.
anihilus buff isnt really gonna do anything. sp1 lock on stifle needs longer duration, this will not affect defense but on offense u have chance to gain atleast some form of burst damage on sp2 after sp1. may b make it every sp1 increases stifle duration by 2 seconds. so after few sp1s you have a chance to stack some stifles,reqch sp2 and convert all 10 furies and have some damage for these 18 seconds. these will not make his damage any where near to those Op champs but gives him something to do offensively
I think I can speak for many people but overall impression to me is: "Is that what we're waiting for after six months and several post-phoning?". It is has been a real let-down. I can be wrong, but I truly wonder if the developers took it serious. Like, Annihilus is not even a buff at all.
I'll agree that on paper, the Annihilus buff doesn't sound as impressive as it could be however I am willing to take it on faith that if after the Buffs go live and we're still not seeing that wow factor that the dev team was pushing for, it'd be a lot easier for them to tweak him up then to tweak him down.
Nope, this rework is permanent. Kabam missed a chance.
OK being a faithful member of this game and having been both F2P and Buying stuff i will say this Balances are only what we take from them.i don't agree on the re balancing of any champion (Nerf or Buff) but i am willing to give benefit of the doubt with this one as i was not around pre 12.0 so i cannot speak on that . i do however own all champions that are on the re balancing radar and will do my testing. if i find they are worse then i will have the option to sell said champs . and from that point i will become a F2P player once again. the BEST way to have your voice heard is to STOP!!!!! giving them money .
This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.
I think for the players to understand how this process is working, it is important to understand the data being presented. I posed three questions that I believe are fundamentally important for any player to understand these announcements: without these being clarified there's no way for a player to make reasonable use of the information being used to support the rebalance changes, or really understand what the devs are looking at when making them.
Question two: why does the data seem to show the same champion with radically different damage output in two different graphs that appear to be described as showing the same thing?
Question three: are we really comparing apples to apples when the data seems to lump together different ranks and tiers of every champion and comparing directly to each other?
Comments
The changes were always reported as being minor changes/tweaks to the champs and not champ breaking, but it all seems so minimal or trivial in some cases that the changes are just annoying. So all this anxiety and waiting, just to annoy the players, and then have them go through selling back champs and waiting to get them given back weeks later.
The general opinions on these changes aren't overwhelmingly negative or positive on any one champ, and are mostly a resounding "....eh ok I guess that's a kinda good or kinda bad change.... but.... why bother at all for most of this?".
I would say that the response to Cull's changes seem to be the most negative with the majority now looking at selling him back and not using him outside of Arena, which can't be the response Kabam was hoping for previously one of the MOST hyped champs to be released (major dropped ball there).
I would also say that the response to Human Torch;s seem to be the most positive, where they appropriately made changes to make their effort seem worth it.
I personally feel like this time invested should have been to drastically improve champs like what was done with Old Man Logan, Venom, Carnage, Colossus. Hate or love the changes made to those previously underperforming, you at least feel the scope of work completed is comparable to the time and hype around it. These changes feel like you took your car to Pimp My Ride, and when you got it back all they did was add a fake hood scoop and filled it up with Silver grade gas instead of Bronze.
Kabam largely focused on the wrong champs and the ones they rightfully should have been working on they didn't do enough to make them a hit with the players. The days of spending money, grinding arena and buying featured crystals is over, because if this is the process we have to look forward to for champs in the game then I'd rather just kind of coast through the game to get them without too much investment.... and hopefully that doesn't make me question why I'm playing a game I just want to coast through.
With the recent clears of Abyss, I'm now concerned that Kabam's going to focus their next re-balancing on the champs that were used to get through this content thought to take months for initial clears. Doctor Doom, Aegon might NOT BE WORKING AS INTENDED in the near future. Also Kabam might re-re-revisit Human Torch after seeing how INSANELY quickly he's able to meltdown Abyss Mephisto..... I N S A N E L Y Q U I C K L Y !!!!!!
Now.... get on to the more important work and buff the champ we all voted for... HULKBUSTER!!!!!! Get back some good PR on your name Kabam!!!!
Far as the "data" I think it is skewed and you are not looking at it properly. I have used my 5/65 namor for months and can tell you his regen sucks, it only shows up when I am about to die..... To say it's over powered is hilarious. Then again, this is coming from the same group who said Abyss isn't meant to be completed in months, yet has been 100% in 36 hors. My point is, the people modifying , changing , representing the game are out of touch and its hilarious to the community. I can make just about graph/report look at certain way, the question is absolute/relative. I can prove Ketchup is more dangerous than creatine, I just have to look at certain data, use certain resources, omit certain information and I can make ketchup look horrible for the body.
Far as the rebalances, it is what it..... I am not mad at them. Cull is pointless beyond 6.1 unless you want to drain your units.
Maw - who cares, seriously?
A slight buff to torch, cool.
My issue is you/kabam think it is ok to do this / make changes without proper compensation. You are doing the BARE minimum.
What you should do:
1) Anyone who has got them/ranked them - give them a gift / compensation that is above avg. Here is some caviler crystals, here are some units, here are some sigs etc. This "sell your champ back" is weak and is beyond low level customer service.
2) Anyone sells them it turns into generic supplies - again, you are changing things b/c your dev team and testing team are not working with whoever is planning this game out and clearly there is disconnect between departments in your company. We shouldn't suffer in any way shape or form, or feel mislead. Cutting anyone's regen by 50% you have just opened the door for some huge issues down the road. Can't wait for doom to be nerfed or "toned down".
3) Listen to your player base and keep the regen the same for namor, seriously..... you should buff culls block prof....
4) Have more meetings with your development team, testing team etc. and you should hire 1/2 youtubers who play the game..... when things like "cyclops is the best player, abyss won't be beat for months, all heavy have the same cadence etc. are said, we lose 100% confidence there is a clue in the company driving this boat.
What you have done:
1) You have completely reinforced the slippery slope of sales/loot-box/bait and switch "feelings" and it will continue. I can't wait for 4-6 months when its time to tweak doom's block proficiency/power control etc. While its not a bait and switch b/c you didn't mess with anyone too much, you are walking up to the line.
When you tweaked namors regen it was just another example of you will do what you want and who cares. Personally, I can tell you I am going on a spending strike for the next 6 months. Y0u have eliminated all trust and at this point, it is not shame on you guys as a company, it is shame on me for spending money. Between how bots, the spending event and punishments were handled and now this... it just shows how reactionary you are as a company. I love the game, just done with giving money. When I pay you, I am voting I agree with the direction... this is entertainment. The fact I am annoyed by this, I can't spend a cent more.
I genuinely would say, if I felt like you guys went above and beyond in dealing with this, I would feel differently.
I have namor 5/65 sig 200 and Ill keep him
Cull 5/65 sign 90ish, Ill sell him and we won't ever go past that r3.
The biggest issue with all of this seems to be the long periods of not knowing what's going on, which champions are going to be targeted, and the general uneasiness a player may have when making rank up decisions. You all know that people either spend thousands of dollars, units they have spent time grinding, or arenas for days to obtain a certain new champ. Now you're confirming in this vague legalese that people still won't know which champions are being looked at, why they weren't tested effectively on release, how long a timeline may look like, and even not knowing if they will get their resources back similar to how you've done this batch. And as nice as it is that you've opened it up to giving back awakening gems and stones and dupes, people still spent thousands of dollars or time equivalent to obtain new awesome champs that may or may not function the same somewhere down the line.
The whole problem was the vagueness, the not knowing, the open ended overhanging possibility that if a new champion is awesome and powerful, that they may get changed. It leaves ambiguity on rank up decisions. It makes me still not want to buy any early access bundles, or cav crystals for new champs. I know I'm not alone on that feeling either.
So while I can say job well done overall on this rollout, there's still a giant question mark over every future champ and the initial problem of it all remains.
after people have run the changes for the trial period is there a final review? Or is this the final decision on changes and either take it or leave it?
Don’t do it. Cancel it all.
@DNA3000 is there a link to a rebalances announcement or something? I can’t see one anywhere 🤷♂️
Links at the bottom of the Announcement post to the individual champion rebalance posts (which are being posted as "Spotlights" in that forum section).
I'd much appreciate it if Kabam looked at rewording future champion rework information threads to make it more apparent that they are seeking community opinion for and against the rework ideas, and that they may not represent the final ability rebalancing. This would probably mean you'd probably need to post the first draft of this information maybe as much as 3 months before the rebalancing changes are released (even if it's just say a 'we're thinking we want to make cull hit harder than he does now at the start of his ramp but not as hard as he currently does at the end of it' thread with a bit of data included). MAKE IT OBVIOUS THAT YOU WANT THE COMMUNITY TO GIVE THEIR OPINIONS ON THESE IDEAS AND THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE CHANGES DEPENDING ON COMMUNITY FEEDBACK. Then the final draft for the balance changes are released at a similar time to now (about 2-4 weeks before the changes go live).
Again, this round of rebalancing did come across as more of a 'here's the changes we're gonna make and that's final' announcement than any of the other big changes. I don't believe that this was your intent however, so I just want to say I think you may have come across the wrong way, and this is how I think you could improve this whole system so that your intent is not misinterpreted as much.
(lol there's probably a way I could have said this without it being as wordy or anything... oof I really need to get better at that. If someone could quote this post and make a TL;DR response, that would be much appreciated)
But congratulations to the people who ranked Cull and get to get all their resources back 😁
I'll agree that on paper, the Annihilus buff doesn't sound as impressive as it could be however I am willing to take it on faith that if after the Buffs go live and we're still not seeing that wow factor that the dev team was pushing for, it'd be a lot easier for them to tweak him up then to tweak him down.
I bet if you ask the devs they would have loved to have been able to rebalance Blade after he was released.
Balances are only what we take from them.i don't agree on the re balancing of any champion (Nerf or Buff) but i am willing to give benefit of the doubt with this one as i was not around pre 12.0 so i cannot speak on that . i do however own all champions that are on the re balancing radar and will do my testing. if i find they are worse then i will have the option to sell said champs . and from that point i will become a F2P player once again. the BEST way to have your voice heard is to STOP!!!!! giving them money .
For reference:
Question one: what do you mean by "player skill?"
Question two: why does the data seem to show the same champion with radically different damage output in two different graphs that appear to be described as showing the same thing?
Question three: are we really comparing apples to apples when the data seems to lump together different ranks and tiers of every champion and comparing directly to each other?