You know there must be a number of defenders a team must place in order to guarantee a win. What I mean is that if you take the time to do the math I am sure there is a threshold of defenders place that can not be over come regardless of the diversity of the other team or their rating. Just figure that number out and place accordingly
I am hesitant to rank up any more champs until there is a solid understanding as to what about the new format/scoring will be changed in order to rectify this mess. I have already r5d War Machine and Groot (both of which I never thought I would have) purely because we didn't have any for our "diverse" defense. Although its very slim (in my opinion) that they modify the diversity setting, I'm 100% screwed if they do because now I have these 2 goons sitting at R5.
Hoping for a sure response as to the action being taken, sooner then later.
You know there must be a number of defenders a team must place in order to guarantee a win. What I mean is that if you take the time to do the math I am sure there is a threshold of defenders place that can not be over come regardless of the diversity of the other team or their rating. Just figure that number out and place accordingly
seriously ,loads of people have already done the math an posted about it in the aw15.0 official thread
This is the second war in the row both teams cleared 96-100% of the each map!
There is not a single difficult OR challenging node on the map until the mini bosses and even those can be too easy at times.
Perhaps the critical nodes, when I make a mistake, I get hit 2-4 times and half of my health is gone, but that's only one of my attackers.
As said before, it no longer matters which champion goes on which node. It's all about the same.
Both Classic Spider-Man and Night Crawler are super easy on any node but Stun Immune. There are only two stun immune nodes in the entire map, one of which is the boss node! Really? Where is the challenge???
As also mentioned here before, it's become about diversity. Since it doesn't matter which champion one places, it just makes sense to coordinate each player to place a unique champion, no matter what rank, as long as it's unique. The opponent is still going to get easily to the miniboss cluster and kill the boss.
I urge you, Kabam, to re-think the entire map in terms of nodes. There was a set of champions by nature only good for defence and the nodes enhanced each of their abilities respectively. Do it again. Go over your current and future champions, determine which are defensive and which are offensive and redo the nodes to enhanced the defensive abilities of them and to counter the abilities of common attackers!!! How simple!!!
It's such a stupidity that you came up with!! I appreciate the thought about teleportation, but that added in account makes it even easier to both alliances clear 96-100% every single time! There is not a single node that would stop the alliance in progress or slow the progress!!
If you don't want to bother, I guess the war could become just a passive waiting game about which alliance places more unique champions! LOL just place them and wait through the now-removed-attack phase to see who placed more of them. LOL
You tell us to be respectful - but how about respecting our in-game efforts??? This was a clear win for us in the game play, yet the opponent placed more unique champs and WON losing in every other aspect of the game.
If this is the way you respect us, then go screw yourselves! That's a middle finger to us. How else am I supposed to be saying it without being rude and impolite and dishonest??
I'm not using coarse language, so don't think of banning me. I'm just offended and honest and I am not interested in being politically correct here when you're waving your finger in front of our faces again.
Kabam, have you not tried to THINK about the new map before rolling it out??
You need to hire someone with basic math skills!!!! LOL IT's all about 100 unique defenders and higher exploration than your opponent with the rest on par!!! If everything is on par, defender rating will decide.
Look at this:
2 group tier 4 war (usually around 500k PI defender rating):
BattleGroup Clear: 20,000 PTS per group = 40,000 PTS
Exploration: 600 PTS per 1% = 60,000 PTS
Defenders Placed: 50 PTS per 1 = 5,000 PTS
Defender Rating: 2 PTS per 1k of PI = 1,000 PTS per 500k PI
Attacker Kills: 150 PTS per kill = 15,000 PTS
Diversity: 125 PTS per champ = 12,500 PTS
This means, that in order to win, each alliance MUST make sure they have 100 unique defenders of highest possible PI PLUS clear 100% or be ahead by as much as possible.
Doing that grants 118,500 PTS
Doing that BUT placing no defence grants 115,000 PTS, in which case their opponent would have to place 71 or less unique defenders for this alliance with NO DEFENCE to win.
Won in every category but lost the war because our opponents placed fewer opponents.
Be ready for some kabam Diversity flag bearers who will tell you " Well you dint place enough DIVERSE (Useless) champs so you lost get on with it" . Not sure why few of them want to continue with this crappy setup instead of fixing it.
In my opinion war needs to be completely changed from what it is now.
Just a couple of tweeks will not be sufficient.
The whole set-up is rubbish. I dont think that i can honestly say there is one area of AW that has been improved in this new AW system.
Every aspect of AW is significantly worse then it was in the old system.
Even down to the fact that you can see which character the defending champion is and how strong they are.
War is suppose to be about skill, strength and intellect. its suppose to be challenging but its also suppose to be fair. The better team should be able to win through these elements.
Mainly War is suppose to be fun f or the people playing it, if it is not fun then what is the point?
Nobody wants to play if it isn't fun hey
The smarter teams won these wars so intelligence was used
It's supposed to be about coordination of the team and fighting skill. Not about crunching numbers. That's not fun. I've already crunched them and I am 100% sure it won't be ANY fun, only routine energy waiting and moving forward. Something like doing Heroic quest on autoplay in order to get to the more fun master quest, except there is no autoplay for the war...
In my opinion war needs to be completely changed from what it is now.
Just a couple of tweeks will not be sufficient.
The whole set-up is rubbish. I dont think that i can honestly say there is one area of AW that has been improved in this new AW system.
Every aspect of AW is significantly worse then it was in the old system.
Even down to the fact that you can see which character the defending champion is and how strong they are.
War is suppose to be about skill, strength and intellect. its suppose to be challenging but its also suppose to be fair. The better team should be able to win through these elements.
Mainly War is suppose to be fun f or the people playing it, if it is not fun then what is the point?
Nobody wants to play if it isn't fun hey
The smarter teams won these wars so intelligence was used
Just because you have knowledge of a crappy system doesn't mean system isn't ****.
War used to be a sub-par game mode. I was looking forward to the changes. Somehow, it got worse.
Nothing was wrong with the Points system, Kabam. I don't know how you got this idea into your head. The only thing we complained about was the rewards, the occasional long wait to find an opponent, and every once in awhile some guy would say the map was getting boring. That's it! All you had to do was:
1. Slightly increase rewards - biggest issue - not done
2. Tweak the map - not too important, but a good idea - done
3. Take a look at opponent search rates - low priority - not done
That's literally all you had to do. But what did you do?
1. Tweak the map - this is what we wanted - the map is slightly worse, but it's fine
2. Promote Defender Diversity - not what we wanted - pretty bad idea
3. Remove Defender Kills - not what we wanted - worst idea ever; ruins War completely
As was stated by @TomieCzech, nice work by the way, you can place no defenders at all and yet be 3,500 points away from perfection. Really? You have to play almost entirely perfectly to beat a team that uses this strategy.
Also, not only is the process flawed, it's completely unrealistic to what "War" actually is. You have to defend yourself as well as attack. This setup allows for the War to be played more like a video game with loopholes than a battle. That's not fun for anyone on the receiving end of this nonsense.
Today we lost because the other team had placed less defenders than us. They had placed 130 and we had placed 150. We had 2% more exploration, but they had killed 20 more defenders than we did so naturally they had more points and won. You don't even need to place any defenders. How can the other team win if there are no defenders to kill? Something needs to be done about this.
How money hungry are you KAGAn? I mean seriously? I think with all the ppl playing this game, and the fact that netmarble took n interest in your company, that you guys are making a good profit to be forcing us to spend de spend de spend. Do you guys realize your prices are ridiculous and for honestly nothing in return. 135 ruins for $5 is the biggest ripoff I can think off. And if we want to actually buy some worth their cash. We have to fork over $20. Come on. Idk whose in charge of marketing but lowering your prices would bring in more revenue. Think about it. Ppl would be willing to fork over $1.99 for 135 ruins and that means more ppl spending. Now you have destroyed one of the most epic parta of this game with that new pathetic excuse you guys call a MAP. Like everybody is saying and others are definitely thinking. There is no point in creating a great defense. It doesn't matter at all anymore. You guys practically shot yourselves in the foot with that one. The old map would inspire ppl to better their heroes which would lead to them actually spending. Now it's just a race to the finish. And not even a fun race. Seems more like a forced reason to do a war just for the lame rewards that come with it. I mean come on. At least change somethings in the game if you plan on continuing with these horrible changes. Better chances at containing ruins in arena crystals. Less 2* on premium crystals. Actually receiving 3* 4* 5* shards in shard crystals. And actually listening to your devoted players who without, you guys would be nothing more than another sad attempt at a game that failed. Yeah, u guys made a great game. And we've shown our appreciation by continuing to play and bringing in new ppl to play. So how about u guys take time to actually understand our complaints and doing something about it. I bet you anything it will work in your favor in the end.
I'm willing to bet if you guys were to give us the option of choosing the new map vs the old one and old form of AW. Hands down the old map would get more activity. Trust.
How about offer rankdown tickets to compensate for the changes needed for diversity. Most people ranked up the champs that are great for defense. Now people are stuck for a while with those same champs that were dedicated for war defense.
i have to say, much like the others, that the new AW really sucks. You made it so simple that there is not much of a challenge.
First don't show the class/star of the champs that are placed on defense. This includes the mini bosses.
You removed defender kills which was a big factor into why we ranked and placed certain champs. It balanced the playing field. No you can revive or restart as often as you like at no penalty. That's ****. You keep rewarding those with no skill over those who use skill to clear the board.
So now you think that lowering the points for attacker kills will make a difference? It won't. Why not also increase the points given for each defender placed.
You seriously need to fix this system. I much rather have the old scoring system with the new board.
On the whole diversity applying across all bgs:
IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. There are only 107 unique champs at the moment.
Leave it as is now, per bg. It was hard enough to find 50 unique defenders for my bg.
Also, alliances without a classic ultron (LoL) or Immortal IF, or even a recently released champs won't stand a chance against big spenders alliances. Even at 100% each, the skill won't matter, big spenders will win due to more diverse champs.
They want these forums to be constructive and positive but man you guys at kabam make it very hard to do so. This AW update doesn't need a tweak it needs to go in the trash. The mode is called Alliance War the winner should be decided on skill not someones abilty to rank 5 joe fixit and put him in on defense which gets 0 kills. Defender kills should 100% matter and if they don't then ban items used. Think about the longevity of this game instead of your bottom line for once or you guys run the risk of more players exiting the community.
Just bring back defender kills, do away with the portal cost, make more unique an challenging nodes. Otherwise imo war is and will always be trash in the current format.
I think kabam should add new rule:
players who not place their defense unable to attack.. This rule will effect opponents who not place their defence in full.. What you guys think?
Thier new "fix" still has a major flaw, it's better not place a duplicate defender. Legitimate question to Kabam, are you suggesting that if we have the option to place 5 defenders (2 being unique and 3 duplicated) you want us to only lay those 2 unique ones? The math of the adjustment you rolled out still encourages this
Wow, what a joke on us! Incredible that Kabam is making the same 12.0 mistake in not listening to its players. Again they will lose players and it will be too late to stop the loss. Strategy reduced from knowing each champs specials and abilities, how they play them on node, and building paths to reduce reviving to... "Diversity"? The level of incompetence is astounding.
@Kabam Miike I just saw your latest update. I am having really difficult times wrapping my head around the fact your team probably worked few weeks on the new war and yet it took me 10 minutes to open excel and put the numbers in to find out it's totally broken!!! What's happening at Kabam? The amount of game data you have available to your team to work with and yet you release a major war overhaul that is broken from the start at its fundamental principles of scoring system. Bugs would be understandable, but this is really too much to comprehend.
Again, I hope you have more corrections in your sleeves because even with this correction, the nodes are still pointless - no challenge there, not difficult to fight. So far both wars were just under 100% exploration both teams with barely any kills. About as fun as fighting heroic event quest at PI 365k.
Thier new "fix" still has a major flaw, it's better not place a duplicate defender. Legitimate question to Kabam, are you suggesting that if we have the option to place 5 defenders (2 being unique and 3 duplicated) you want us to only lay those 2 unique ones? The math of the adjustment you rolled out still encourages this
You should still place dupes. They get 50p for killing it, but you get 50p for placing it + points for it's rating. So it's a net positive for every champ placed.
The deciding factor will be diversity once the fix is in. So guys who spend on new champs will win. Zero skill required.
I am going to give this one more week. If this is the way that alliance wars are going to be going forward then I am done with this game. What a ridiculously poor concept and implement.
I think kabam should add new rule:
players who not place their defense unable to attack.. This rule will effect opponents who not place their defence in full.. What you guys think?
I think kabam should add new rule:
players who not place their defense unable to attack.. This rule will effect opponents who not place their defence in full.. What you guys think?
absolutely... if you don't place defense you shouldn't be able to attack. Easiest possible fix.
Well, that's the general rule in my Ally, and that was my initial suggestion, but I can see that may be a bit harsh to implement overall. I think their response to lower Attack Kills was pretty apt.
The post in announcements said the scoring change would go in effect tomorrow, then said the way diversity was scored would be changed as soon as possible. Can we get clarification on whether this is tomorrow or with the next update ? I'm sure changing points is a simple change and can be hot fixed, but diversity may require additional coding and won't be available until 15.1 rolls out ? We all know how long things remain as a fix in progress.
I actually think it makes more sense to have diversity scoring be per group. How does the placement of a champ in group 1 affect anyone in group 2 or 3? It doesn't. By having diversity counted throughout the alliance as was initially intended essentially forces other groups to use horrible defenders to maximize diversity. Leaving it as per group gives more flexibility to each group while still giving insentive to not bring duplicate champs.
Comments
Hoping for a sure response as to the action being taken, sooner then later.
seriously ,loads of people have already done the math an posted about it in the aw15.0 official thread
This is the second war in the row both teams cleared 96-100% of the each map!
There is not a single difficult OR challenging node on the map until the mini bosses and even those can be too easy at times.
Perhaps the critical nodes, when I make a mistake, I get hit 2-4 times and half of my health is gone, but that's only one of my attackers.
As said before, it no longer matters which champion goes on which node. It's all about the same.
Both Classic Spider-Man and Night Crawler are super easy on any node but Stun Immune. There are only two stun immune nodes in the entire map, one of which is the boss node! Really? Where is the challenge???
As also mentioned here before, it's become about diversity. Since it doesn't matter which champion one places, it just makes sense to coordinate each player to place a unique champion, no matter what rank, as long as it's unique. The opponent is still going to get easily to the miniboss cluster and kill the boss.
I urge you, Kabam, to re-think the entire map in terms of nodes. There was a set of champions by nature only good for defence and the nodes enhanced each of their abilities respectively. Do it again. Go over your current and future champions, determine which are defensive and which are offensive and redo the nodes to enhanced the defensive abilities of them and to counter the abilities of common attackers!!! How simple!!!
It's such a stupidity that you came up with!! I appreciate the thought about teleportation, but that added in account makes it even easier to both alliances clear 96-100% every single time! There is not a single node that would stop the alliance in progress or slow the progress!!
If you don't want to bother, I guess the war could become just a passive waiting game about which alliance places more unique champions! LOL just place them and wait through the now-removed-attack phase to see who placed more of them. LOL
Kabam, I want my rewards!
BattleGroup Clears - 2:2
Explored - 99.5:98.0 %
Defenders Placed - 100:100
Defender Rating - 515,122:488,428
Defender Diversity - 42:90
Attacker Kills - 100:98
Defender Kills - 77:20
Participants - 20:20
AND WE LOST!!!!!!!!
You tell us to be respectful - but how about respecting our in-game efforts??? This was a clear win for us in the game play, yet the opponent placed more unique champs and WON losing in every other aspect of the game.
If this is the way you respect us, then go screw yourselves! That's a middle finger to us. How else am I supposed to be saying it without being rude and impolite and dishonest??
I'm not using coarse language, so don't think of banning me. I'm just offended and honest and I am not interested in being politically correct here when you're waving your finger in front of our faces again.
You need to hire someone with basic math skills!!!! LOL IT's all about 100 unique defenders and higher exploration than your opponent with the rest on par!!! If everything is on par, defender rating will decide.
Look at this:
2 group tier 4 war (usually around 500k PI defender rating):
BattleGroup Clear: 20,000 PTS per group = 40,000 PTS
Exploration: 600 PTS per 1% = 60,000 PTS
Defenders Placed: 50 PTS per 1 = 5,000 PTS
Defender Rating: 2 PTS per 1k of PI = 1,000 PTS per 500k PI
Attacker Kills: 150 PTS per kill = 15,000 PTS
Diversity: 125 PTS per champ = 12,500 PTS
This means, that in order to win, each alliance MUST make sure they have 100 unique defenders of highest possible PI PLUS clear 100% or be ahead by as much as possible.
Doing that grants 118,500 PTS
Doing that BUT placing no defence grants 115,000 PTS, in which case their opponent would have to place 71 or less unique defenders for this alliance with NO DEFENCE to win.
PURE PATHETIC AND EMBARRASSING!
Be ready for some kabam Diversity flag bearers who will tell you " Well you dint place enough DIVERSE (Useless) champs so you lost get on with it" . Not sure why few of them want to continue with this crappy setup instead of fixing it.
It's supposed to be about coordination of the team and fighting skill. Not about crunching numbers. That's not fun. I've already crunched them and I am 100% sure it won't be ANY fun, only routine energy waiting and moving forward. Something like doing Heroic quest on autoplay in order to get to the more fun master quest, except there is no autoplay for the war...
Just because you have knowledge of a crappy system doesn't mean system isn't ****.
Nothing was wrong with the Points system, Kabam. I don't know how you got this idea into your head. The only thing we complained about was the rewards, the occasional long wait to find an opponent, and every once in awhile some guy would say the map was getting boring. That's it! All you had to do was:
1. Slightly increase rewards - biggest issue - not done
2. Tweak the map - not too important, but a good idea - done
3. Take a look at opponent search rates - low priority - not done
That's literally all you had to do. But what did you do?
1. Tweak the map - this is what we wanted - the map is slightly worse, but it's fine
2. Promote Defender Diversity - not what we wanted - pretty bad idea
3. Remove Defender Kills - not what we wanted - worst idea ever; ruins War completely
As was stated by @TomieCzech, nice work by the way, you can place no defenders at all and yet be 3,500 points away from perfection. Really? You have to play almost entirely perfectly to beat a team that uses this strategy.
Also, not only is the process flawed, it's completely unrealistic to what "War" actually is. You have to defend yourself as well as attack. This setup allows for the War to be played more like a video game with loopholes than a battle. That's not fun for anyone on the receiving end of this nonsense.
I'm willing to bet if you guys were to give us the option of choosing the new map vs the old one and old form of AW. Hands down the old map would get more activity. Trust.
First don't show the class/star of the champs that are placed on defense. This includes the mini bosses.
You removed defender kills which was a big factor into why we ranked and placed certain champs. It balanced the playing field. No you can revive or restart as often as you like at no penalty. That's ****. You keep rewarding those with no skill over those who use skill to clear the board.
So now you think that lowering the points for attacker kills will make a difference? It won't. Why not also increase the points given for each defender placed.
You seriously need to fix this system. I much rather have the old scoring system with the new board.
IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. There are only 107 unique champs at the moment.
Leave it as is now, per bg. It was hard enough to find 50 unique defenders for my bg.
Also, alliances without a classic ultron (LoL) or Immortal IF, or even a recently released champs won't stand a chance against big spenders alliances. Even at 100% each, the skill won't matter, big spenders will win due to more diverse champs.
players who not place their defense unable to attack.. This rule will effect opponents who not place their defence in full.. What you guys think?
Again, I hope you have more corrections in your sleeves because even with this correction, the nodes are still pointless - no challenge there, not difficult to fight. So far both wars were just under 100% exploration both teams with barely any kills. About as fun as fighting heroic event quest at PI 365k.
You should still place dupes. They get 50p for killing it, but you get 50p for placing it + points for it's rating. So it's a net positive for every champ placed.
The deciding factor will be diversity once the fix is in. So guys who spend on new champs will win. Zero skill required.
Well, that's the general rule in my Ally, and that was my initial suggestion, but I can see that may be a bit harsh to implement overall. I think their response to lower Attack Kills was pretty apt.