Alliance War Feedback [Merged Threads]

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  • AxeCopFireAxeCopFire Posts: 1,115 ★★★
    Phantom wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    Phantom wrote: »
    ZzyzxGuy wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    ZzyzxGuy wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    Phantom wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    1 Attacker Kill = 150 points
    1 5k PI Repeat Defender Placed = 10+50 = 65 points
    1 5k PI Diverse Defender Placed = 125+10+50 = 185 points

    If you don't want alliances that place no defense to win, the solution is simple: Don't place repeat defenders.

    I have Nightcrawler as one of my top champs. I ranked him up solely for for defense, because defender diversity didn't matter. Now it does. You're telling me that my decision to use rare resources and make Nightcrawler one of my few champs that I actually use was a waste?

    No I'm telling you that if you don't want alliances that place no defense to win, the solution is simple: Don't place repeat defenders.

    It doesn't work that way man... You can have a full 150 man defense that has every champ in the game, but if they don't give you enough opponents to fight, you wont get enough points to win.

    Here's what you just said in math terms:

    150 is greater than 185.

    I hope that you can see your error there.

    I think you don't understand the scoring system.

    By placing only 30 defenders, you are taking away 18K potential points for the opponent which far outweighs the points gained from diversity, rating and placement on a 150 man defense.

    I think you don't understand the scoring system.

    Possible points gained from attacker kills = 22,500

    Possible points gained from defenders placed = 27,750 (based on an average of 5k per defender)

    You are using math to describe an impossible scenario.

    You are saying that in one BG, an alliance has 50 unique champs all over 5K rating.

    That's very true. Not only is it hard to believe that everyone in every BG (except very high tier alliances) has 5 champs over 5k, but that they're never repeated.

    If you placed 150 diverse 3 star champs (50 unique per BG) that were 2k PI each, you would score 26,850 for defenders, so as you can see the PI matters very little.

    But again, if this strategy is used, it means that almost all of the champs that we all ranked up because they were great AW defenders are now useless. Even if this strategy would work, Kabam screwed us all over by ensuring that our champs that we worked hard to upgrade can't be used to win anymore.

    It's not that they can't be used. 1 per BG can be still be used. It's that the risk and reward must be weighed if you wish to use more beyond that limit of 1 per BG.
  • unknownunknown Posts: 378
    Ron_H wrote: »
    I saw this comming as soon as they announced defender kill points were removed and attack kills increased. Kabam tought they came up with a way to get us to spend more potions and revives..but it backfired.

    Not placing def gives you a big head start on points compared to actually placing a defence. Besides that.. def placement was a fun strategic part of AW.. Thats gone out the window now.

    Way to go to.. "fix" things that that didnt need a fix instead of fixing things that actually need to be fixed.Theres actually a saying.."if it aint broke dont fix it".. well i gues now its another thing on kabams "To do list"

    kabam actually helped us by making it easier to do war and NOT having to spend resources or money. Thanks kabam, you actually helped out our wallets.
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
  • unknownunknown Posts: 378
    Have every defender in your war be different no matter how bad. It outscores the not placing strategy.

    wrong
  • PhantomPhantom Posts: 228
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    Phantom wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    Phantom wrote: »
    ZzyzxGuy wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    ZzyzxGuy wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    Phantom wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »
    1 Attacker Kill = 150 points
    1 5k PI Repeat Defender Placed = 10+50 = 65 points
    1 5k PI Diverse Defender Placed = 125+10+50 = 185 points

    If you don't want alliances that place no defense to win, the solution is simple: Don't place repeat defenders.

    I have Nightcrawler as one of my top champs. I ranked him up solely for for defense, because defender diversity didn't matter. Now it does. You're telling me that my decision to use rare resources and make Nightcrawler one of my few champs that I actually use was a waste?

    No I'm telling you that if you don't want alliances that place no defense to win, the solution is simple: Don't place repeat defenders.

    It doesn't work that way man... You can have a full 150 man defense that has every champ in the game, but if they don't give you enough opponents to fight, you wont get enough points to win.

    Here's what you just said in math terms:

    150 is greater than 185.

    I hope that you can see your error there.

    I think you don't understand the scoring system.

    By placing only 30 defenders, you are taking away 18K potential points for the opponent which far outweighs the points gained from diversity, rating and placement on a 150 man defense.

    I think you don't understand the scoring system.

    Possible points gained from attacker kills = 22,500

    Possible points gained from defenders placed = 27,750 (based on an average of 5k per defender)

    You are using math to describe an impossible scenario.

    You are saying that in one BG, an alliance has 50 unique champs all over 5K rating.

    That's very true. Not only is it hard to believe that everyone in every BG (except very high tier alliances) has 5 champs over 5k, but that they're never repeated.

    If you placed 150 diverse 3 star champs (50 unique per BG) that were 2k PI each, you would score 26,850 for defenders, so as you can see the PI matters very little.

    But again, if this strategy is used, it means that almost all of the champs that we all ranked up because they were great AW defenders are now useless. Even if this strategy would work, Kabam screwed us all over by ensuring that our champs that we worked hard to upgrade can't be used to win anymore.

    It's not that they can't be used. 1 per BG can be still be used. It's that the risk and reward must be weighed if you wish to use more beyond that limit of 1 per BG.

    And you've explicitly stated that it isn't worth it, because duplicating champs means your chances to win fall drastically.

    Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that only two people per BG have ranked up the same champ. Let's just say Nightcrawler as an example, because I can abbreviate it as NC. Now, two is probably way lower than the actual number of duplicate champs, but I'm just going to prove my point even further by using such a low number. Only one person is screwed out of a rank up on a champ that they can't place. Most times, the rank that's been wasted is r4 or r5. I'll keep being kind and say r4 for all of them. So, only one person per BG is screwed. There are 3 BGs. 3 people per alliance are screwed. But there's tons of alliances. I'll be as kind as possible and today that there are literally only 1,000 alliances with those 3 BGs.

    1 screwed r4 rank up per BG
    x
    3 BGs
    x
    1,000 alliances
    =
    3,000 wasted rank ups

    Now, take the 3,000 wasted rank ups x the 3 t4bc. That's 9,000 wasted Tier 4 Basic Catalysts. Kabam has wasted nearly 10,000 of these catalysts, and most users find these as extremely valuable.

    But remember, that's based on the lowest assumptions. We're giving Kabam so much benefit of the doubt that it's staggering. This is assuming that:
    -none of the rank ups were to r5
    -only one person per BG misses out on one champ
    -there's only 1,000 alliances out there

    What are those odds? Probably somewhere below zero. But even if we take that bare minimum, Kabam has wasted 9,000 of one of the most prized possessions in the game. That's stupid.
  • AxeCopFireAxeCopFire Posts: 1,115 ★★★
    Yes, you are correct that there are people who will feel screwed. However, feeling screwed doesn't affect the final score of an alliance war.
  • unknownunknown Posts: 378
    And you enjoyed them before? There was so much BS in the map before with lame ass rewards, tier 1 thorns with duped iceman on, yeah no thanks. Old map/method was stale and boring. Not saying this is perfect but reverting things doesn't seem like a solution

    youre right, but this is worse than what we had, so reverting would actually be a positive in this case.
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    edited September 2017
    How about having attacker diversity points too lol. God forbid they make a section of this game where you can use every champ in the game to play with usefully.
    Post edited by Kabam Vydious on
  • DD2DD2 Posts: 309 ★★★
    Before giving out any suggestions, realize what's going to happen.

    Kabam rarely makes things BETTER for us, so if you keep asking for CHANGE thinking they'll help us, they won't. They'll change things for their benefit and add nothing that we want, so in the end we'll be losing.

    In a month or two Kabam will screw us even more while pretending to say that they "listened!".
  • DL864DL864 Posts: 781 ★★★
    Kabam will fix this once thier data tells them they are not making as much money off of the new system vs the old. How they will fix it. My guess is they will make the nodes much harder and make a steep penalty for not placing a full defense.
  • StingerbkStingerbk Posts: 158 ★★
    Man my next war my alliance aren't placing any defenders, just mini bosses, thanks for the info guys, makes our lives a lot easier, very easy quickie 5* and 4* shards. Kabam great work on this one.
  • Etaki_LirakoiEtaki_Lirakoi Posts: 480 ★★
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
    Pretty sure there's only 106 characters in the game, including up to King-pin/Medusa and Kang/Thanos/Vision/Deadpool.
  • CorpsmanCorpsman Posts: 54
    When was the last time Kabam added or changed anything to the game that wasn't glitched or messed up in some way. They don't test anything, just throw it out and hope it's ok. The quality of this game has been trash for the past year if not more. Don't spend on this trash.
  • BOO8sBOO8s Posts: 52
    g9oq0jpcuoox.jpg
    yzuvtffef9tc.png
    Here is us losing because opponent places less defenders and a screen grab from another thread where someone lost to 0 defenders. Duh duh duhhhh
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 1,037 ★★★
    This will eventually balance itself out. Once people start getting beat by alliances who are placing fewer defenders, they will start doing the same. Then it becomes based on defender rating only, or a possible tie where neither alliance gets the victory rewards.

    I'm sure kabam will do something about this, possibly taking war down again to redo the rules. They could make a set defender to attacker ratio, where you are limited to 1 attacker for 0-2 defenders, 2 for 3-4 defenders, and 3 for 5. This would make it much harder for an alliance to 100% a map with a full defense.

    It's still a gamble placing less than a full defense. You may come across someone with a very strong one and be forced to spend to win since it all on hangs on the premise of getting 100% completion. They may as well just give bonus points for items used instead since skill is no longer the deciding factor.
  • f9_absf9_abs Posts: 126
    I am just waiting for kabam to come back and say this is violation of their ToS by players because of yet another design flaw which they didn't think about, and bunch of players will be banned as aftermath. o:)

    Does anyone remember that it was this forum who pointed out to kabam that this new format will make the "detect" masteries useless? Talk about excellent designers, developers and testers kabam has.
  • PhantomPhantom Posts: 228
    edited September 2017
    It's kinda hard to have diverse defenders when there aren't any defenders.
  • MikeHockMikeHock Posts: 2,054 ★★★★
    rwhack wrote: »
    Hey there everyone,

    Thanks for taking the time to leave feedback about this. I'm going to go ahead and keep this thread open for everyone to tag in on, but please remember to be constructive when posting and to be mindful.

    I'll be merging threads over so we can keep things organized.

    It's hard to be constructive here. When it was released we said getting rid of attacker kills was a bad idea we were ignored and they explained why we were wrong. We were told this was beta tested...I can't see how that is possible. When you reboot AW and not placing a defense is a strategy to win how do we say how poorly conceived it is when we said it to start with and we were dismissed? AW is one of the few non monotonous things in the game. Map 6 in AW is interesting but the 60 minute timers make it a no go regularly. Most of our requests and concerns are met with indifference or dismissed.

    -AW is broken without attacked kills. We said this at the release. Alliances winning because they didn't place a defense is proof.
    -60 minute timers in AQ make this a job not a game.
    -storage capacity for all catalysts and ISO is too small. It was OK when taking a 4 star to r5 was a big deal. Very few are worth it.
    -The beta testing is substandard to say it politely
    -t4b and t1a accumulation is too slow with the emphasis on 5 stars.

    All of these things have been said for quite some time. Every single one ignored or dismissed.

    Great post. Needs to be repeated and highlighted.
  • EgeCEgeC Posts: 128
    edited September 2017
    EgeC wrote: »
    qhsg7bam7t6g.jpg

    Wonder why this wasn't posted yet. OP is on reddit. Easy to find. I won't post a link there. Here are some (hopefully not insulting) questions to Kabam:
    - What was the reason to remove defender kills points?
    - Do you realize the current status of the game may make people skip placing defense champs?
    - Do you realize that without any defense to fight, AW loses ALL its purpose, fun?
    - Do you realize that this will distance people from your game?
    - Do you have any ideas to fix it because WE WANT to be involved. Obviously, your way of thinking doesn't exactly fit how the community wants to play this game.

    Why can't I edit my own post?? Anyways, the screen was posted above by somone else, didn't see.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 26,724 ★★★★★
    It's highly doubtful that they will revert the system. The most logical solution is if people join a War, they need to place in order to participate.
  • MastaChief117MastaChief117 Posts: 113
    edited September 2017
    Hey there everyone,

    Thanks for taking the time to leave feedback about this. I'm going to go ahead and keep this thread open for everyone to tag in on, but please remember to be constructive when posting and to be mindful.

    I'll be merging threads over so we can keep things organized.

    What's the point. We can be constructive but there's no point if this criticism doesn't go anywhere. There are so many things that went wrong with this AW update.

    Defender Kill Points NEED to return. There is no point in bringing in great defenders for AW if they contribute 0 points. AW was such a unique feature in MCoC. It was almost like a chess game for those of us who placed defense. Now we have people winning AW by not even placing defense. I'm sure this wasn't the intention so please bring back defender kill points.

    Defender Diversity Points should either be removed or contribute less points the the overall score. Defender Diversity adds nothing to AW, it is simply an incentive to bring a Star Lord to defense. I know the intention was to encourage players to use different defenders but, to be quite honest, if champions weren't being used for defense before, it's because they weren't good defenders. Some champions are attackers, some champs are defenders and that's perfectly fine! That's what kept those champions relevant in the game.

    Those two are the biggest problem right now but there are a few other problems. Nodes should really get upgraded. Thorns was removed but there should have been new nodes introduced in it's place. Even if those nodes were from Act 5, they would have made AW fun and interesting. People know how to deal with those nodes so they wouldn't be game breaking.

    Whoever these beta testers are, they should really be replaced. These people need to understand the game enough to be able to distinguish a good idea from a bad one. The fact that people on the forums have better feedback and ideas than those beta testers show they probably aren't doing a good job.

    I'm writing this out of frustration. I've been playing this game since it's start and that's the only reason I have stayed. This game was better YEARS ago, and that's typically not a good sign. I don't know how long this game has but I'd much rather it end before it gets any worse. I'd perfer to remember how insanely fun and amazing this game was than to see it become more broken and less fun in the future.
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
    Pretty sure there's only 106 characters in the game, including up to King-pin/Medusa and Kang/Thanos/Vision/Deadpool.

    Forgetting Kang, Thanos, Ultrop Prime and Immortal Iron Fist among others I'm sure. Count them up on the character chart Kabam gave us.
  • Etaki_LirakoiEtaki_Lirakoi Posts: 480 ★★
    edited September 2017
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
    Pretty sure there's only 106 characters in the game, including up to King-pin/Medusa and Kang/Thanos/Vision/Deadpool.

    Forgetting Kang, Thanos, Ultrop Prime and Immortal Iron Fist among others I'm sure. Count them up on the character chart Kabam gave us.
    I literally just said I included Kang and Thanos, also all the other guys were included, only 106 in the game dude.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,661 ★★★★★
    It was predicted that alliances would win wars by placing fewer wars before AW went live. It turns out these predictions were correct and AW has become a joke. I have people considering quitting the game as AW is one of the main things that keeps them playing. AW was already becoming a joke with alliance swapping. Kabam needs to make AW great again.
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
    Pretty sure there's only 106 characters in the game, including up to King-pin/Medusa and Kang/Thanos/Vision/Deadpool.

    Forgetting Kang, Thanos, Ultrop Prime and Immortal Iron Fist among others I'm sure. Count them up on the character chart Kabam gave us.
    I literally just said I included Kang and Thanos, also all the other guys were included, only 106 in the game dude.

    My bad
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    JRock808 wrote: »
    linux wrote: »
    AxeCopFire wrote: »

    While it is correct that you believe that, it is incorrect that that is true. Please count the number of diverse champs in your next war, and compare it to the final diversity score and you will see that you are wrong.

    Ok man. Have fun, I'm done here.

    I can assure you that the system is not as described in the initial announcement. I believe it is as Jeff described, though my data doesn't let me completely eliminate the possibility that Miike was wrong about how 4* and 5* Hulks are counted as one. I carefully recorded all our champs in our last war, and we were not dinged for 2 of 3 duplicates (failing to count duplicates at different * levels could also explain it, but so could treating different BGs separately).

    The data I see makes it look more likely that you're wrong and @JazzyJeff1981 is correct. Regardless, the announcement from Kabam is clearly incorrect in some way as there are screenshots of alliances getting 124 diversity points ... and there aren't that many champs.

    There are not 119 champions in the game, much less 125. Enjoy.
    c6ntcmeknzzn.jpg

    There are actually exactly 119 champs in the game. Still missing 6 to make 125 by end of year. We know this already from champ roster Kabam released a month or so ago.
    Pretty sure there's only 106 characters in the game, including up to King-pin/Medusa and Kang/Thanos/Vision/Deadpool.

    Forgetting Kang, Thanos, Ultrop Prime and Immortal Iron Fist among others I'm sure. Count them up on the character chart Kabam gave us.
    I literally just said I included Kang and Thanos, also all the other guys were included, only 106 in the game dude.

    There are actually 114 characters out of 120. Not sure where I got 125 from lol.
This discussion has been closed.