I think there is sort of an inherent issue with ‘endgame players’. There comes a point where your roster can pretty much counter everything, it’s just a matter of having the time/units. Abyss for example.
I firmly believe there is a tipping point.
A point where no matter how difficult the content is, you’re going to be able to do it. Because our rosters are continually growing, vertically and horizontally. Eventually nothing feels niche because we have all the counters. If there is a niche right that requires a ‘bad champ’ we’ve probably got the resources to take them up to a decent rank without it hurting us too much.
To me this tipping point occurs when you’re pretty much caught up on content.
Being honest, I’m not sure Kabam can actually release content that would satisfy the gluttons for punishment. No matter how difficult it is, chances are we’ll have it done in a couple of weeks. I do think we need more challenging content, 7.1 and V6 were a lot of fun, but they were easy. They weren’t absolute cake walks, but they weren’t act 6 either. Nor should they be
I never want to see a return to act 6. Ever. The difficulty in that content didn’t come from the complexity of the fights or the skill requirement, it came down to perpetual roster checks. Which doesn’t satisfy either camp. You have endgame players barely feeling the nicheness and progressing players being constantly hindered.
I don’t know if there is an answer here. There has been so much discussion over the past few weeks about difficulty but no one seems to have solutions. I don’t either. I don’t know if there is. Personally, I’ve got a pretty stacked account at this point, at least horizontally. I felt 7.1 could have been more difficult but I don’t mind if it stays how it is, because I had fun
Anyway, ramble over. I broadly agree with you puff, but not entirely
I think there is sort of an inherent issue with ‘endgame players’. There comes a point where your roster can pretty much counter everything, it’s just a matter of having the time/units. Abyss for example.
I firmly believe there is a tipping point.
A point where no matter how difficult the content is, you’re going to be able to do it. Because our rosters are continually growing, vertically and horizontally. Eventually nothing feels niche because we have all the counters. If there is a niche right that requires a ‘bad champ’ we’ve probably got the resources to take them up to a decent rank without it hurting us too much.
To me this tipping point occurs when you’re pretty much caught up on content.
Being honest, I’m not sure Kabam can actually release content that would satisfy the gluttons for punishment. No matter how difficult it is, chances are we’ll have it done in a couple of weeks. I do think we need more challenging content, 7.1 and V6 were a lot of fun, but they were easy. They weren’t absolute cake walks, but they weren’t act 6 either. Nor should they be
I never want to see a return to act 6. Ever. The difficulty in that content didn’t come from the complexity of the fights or the skill requirement, it came down to perpetual roster checks. Which doesn’t satisfy either camp. You have endgame players barely feeling the nicheness and progressing players being constantly hindered.
I don’t know if there is an answer here. There has been so much discussion over the past few weeks about difficulty but no one seems to have solutions. I don’t either. I don’t know if there is. Personally, I’ve got a pretty stacked account at this point, at least horizontally. I felt 7.1 could have been more difficult but I don’t mind if it stays how it is, because I had fun
Anyway, ramble over. I broadly agree with you puff, but not entirely
How a out a champion boss type fight with Karnak where you have to Dex 5 specials evry 1% dmaage you deal to remove indestructible? Also give Force of Will and 100k attack points. Also unblockable and unstoppable entire fight
Within the realms of reason.
Although yous would probably still find a way to complain it was too easy. It would also kill the game.
I have beaten every endgame content which aren't permanent such as the challenge this month but if it's Kabam intention to focus on non-permanent content then it's just wrong. So wrong. Because it's easy to forget and ignore. Permanent contents are what we can't ignore. It's the step that everyone needs to walk through.
i reckon perhaps using some lower ranked champions can make things harder
I personally don’t see the point in having to use lower ranked or rarity champions in anything other than things like the 4* challenge MEQ because it defeats the whole purpose of the game which is the development of a wide and powerful roster.
“For example, a quest for Thronebreakers(or a different requirement) that entails Act 6 level opponents with challenging nodes that aren’t very niche, but still very challenging. But with some sort of twist, like an itemban, or a limit of a 1 or 2 champion team limit, or a gate that allows only 3*s or below. Any combination of something like that. “
You want 300-400k healthpools done with 3*’s? It sounds like you just want to make everyone have a miserable time playing the game, the direction they’re currently going is fine. Like the several posts mentioned before, clear the content with lower ranked champs or with bad champs. You mentioned you had the top villains so Ofcourse you’re going to faceroll through the content, why not do the entire exploration with 4*’s? Not going to lie, the forums is getting way too toxic lately with all these complaints, but what can you expect when you clear content as soon as it arrives instead of pacing yourself and perhaps using weaker champs for the extra challenge?
I can see where OP is coming from, I think that the speed which so many of us finished Act 7 is a bit of an anomaly, there’s not going to be any other times where we’re just handed the keys to roll a whole chapter essentially for free because of the compensation. I think that the difficulty will come back, we’ve got used to Act 6’s brutality pre-nerf, so this is easy for us, but it’s probably about right if Act 6’a difficulty curved naturally from Act 5 without the insane spike. What it has done is made so many of us very good players compared to what we were during Act 5. A lot of us don’t even flinch at an 80-90k PI champion now, no matter the nodes we just go to the drawing board, so there’s been a quite an attitude shift from the more endgame players. I expected 7.1 to come in easy as it’s their first real foray into ‘fun but challenging’ content, and it is a very fine balance between fun but hard and just dumb.
Also, I 100% agree on the rewards - I need about 30 T2A to use up my T5B.
I think there is sort of an inherent issue with ‘endgame players’. There comes a point where your roster can pretty much counter everything, it’s just a matter of having the time/units. Abyss for example.
I firmly believe there is a tipping point.
A point where no matter how difficult the content is, you’re going to be able to do it. Because our rosters are continually growing, vertically and horizontally. Eventually nothing feels niche because we have all the counters. If there is a niche right that requires a ‘bad champ’ we’ve probably got the resources to take them up to a decent rank without it hurting us too much.
To me this tipping point occurs when you’re pretty much caught up on content.
Being honest, I’m not sure Kabam can actually release content that would satisfy the gluttons for punishment. No matter how difficult it is, chances are we’ll have it done in a couple of weeks. I do think we need more challenging content, 7.1 and V6 were a lot of fun, but they were easy. They weren’t absolute cake walks, but they weren’t act 6 either. Nor should they be
I never want to see a return to act 6. Ever. The difficulty in that content didn’t come from the complexity of the fights or the skill requirement, it came down to perpetual roster checks. Which doesn’t satisfy either camp. You have endgame players barely feeling the nicheness and progressing players being constantly hindered.
I don’t know if there is an answer here. There has been so much discussion over the past few weeks about difficulty but no one seems to have solutions. I don’t either. I don’t know if there is. Personally, I’ve got a pretty stacked account at this point, at least horizontally. I felt 7.1 could have been more difficult but I don’t mind if it stays how it is, because I had fun
Anyway, ramble over. I broadly agree with you puff, but not entirely
How a out a champion boss type fight with Karnak where you have to Dex 5 specials evry 1% dmaage you deal to remove indestructible? Also give Force of Will and 100k attack points. Also unblockable and unstoppable entire fight
Within the realms of reason.
Although yous would probably still find a way to complain it was too easy. It would also kill the game.
Yous?
Also realm of reason didn't stop them from designing MRsin or Mordo or the collecter
Scottish term. Habit.
And they aren’t good fights. That’s why I said I don’t want to see a return to act 6. Niche or BS might be challenging but it’s not a good challenging. As I said, it doesn’t satisfy either champ, to be honest I’ve got no idea what point you’re trying to get at here
A middle ground might be a good idea. Just have 2 or 3 paths in the quest be like act 7 is now (only heard about it not played it yet) and make 3-4 paths more geared towards true endgame players. This way. Players like me, who like to progress but or not really that good or don`t have a big wallet can see the content and get some nice smaller progression rewards. And the top dogs can explore the quest quickly and can get a sense of struggle. Players like me can then start to explore when the new content gets released.
I think there is sort of an inherent issue with ‘endgame players’. There comes a point where your roster can pretty much counter everything, it’s just a matter of having the time/units. Abyss for example.
I firmly believe there is a tipping point.
A point where no matter how difficult the content is, you’re going to be able to do it. Because our rosters are continually growing, vertically and horizontally. Eventually nothing feels niche because we have all the counters. If there is a niche right that requires a ‘bad champ’ we’ve probably got the resources to take them up to a decent rank without it hurting us too much.
To me this tipping point occurs when you’re pretty much caught up on content.
Being honest, I’m not sure Kabam can actually release content that would satisfy the gluttons for punishment. No matter how difficult it is, chances are we’ll have it done in a couple of weeks. I do think we need more challenging content, 7.1 and V6 were a lot of fun, but they were easy. They weren’t absolute cake walks, but they weren’t act 6 either. Nor should they be
I never want to see a return to act 6. Ever. The difficulty in that content didn’t come from the complexity of the fights or the skill requirement, it came down to perpetual roster checks. Which doesn’t satisfy either camp. You have endgame players barely feeling the nicheness and progressing players being constantly hindered.
I don’t know if there is an answer here. There has been so much discussion over the past few weeks about difficulty but no one seems to have solutions. I don’t either. I don’t know if there is. Personally, I’ve got a pretty stacked account at this point, at least horizontally. I felt 7.1 could have been more difficult but I don’t mind if it stays how it is, because I had fun
Anyway, ramble over. I broadly agree with you puff, but not entirely
How a out a champion boss type fight with Karnak where you have to Dex 5 specials evry 1% dmaage you deal to remove indestructible? Also give Force of Will and 100k attack points. Also unblockable and unstoppable entire fight
Within the realms of reason.
Although yous would probably still find a way to complain it was too easy. It would also kill the game.
Yous?
Also realm of reason didn't stop them from designing MRsin or Mordo or the collecter
Scottish term. Habit.
And they aren’t good fights. That’s why I said I don’t want to see a return to act 6. Niche or BS might be challenging but it’s not a good challenging. As I said, it doesn’t satisfy either champ, to be honest I’ve got no idea what point you’re trying to get at here
I'm talking to the masochist summoners. Honestly I don't know any fight in game excpet champion (10%)and GM that is challenging . All the rest are just a question of whether you have the right champ(obviously otherwise it'll be challenging)
That’s the point I’m kind of trying to make. I think there are other challenging fights, but so many ‘difficult’ fights are just having the right counters. Which in an endgame roster, they’ll probably have, so the difficulty is lost. That’s why I’m not sure if Kabam can actually make the difficult content endgamers seem to want. Abyss wouldn’t even be that bad if it weren’t for the kill switch. Even that is about having the right champs
The final 10% of the champion, pre nerf, I actually think is the route they should go down. Fights with a fairly high skill requirements rather than a roster requirement. Most mystics, slow champs, even Kamala Khan and Squirrel girl can do that fight. It’s the timing and spacing that makes it difficult. If they’re making ‘endgame content’, that’s the direction I want them to lean. But not go as far as no retreat, that was insane
If Kabam can manage to release this stuff in parallel to other's, I just see one solution- BREAKER OF THRONES difficulty side event every 2 months where anybody else won't be able to even enter that quest.But yeah rewards still need to be balanced there.But something like access to 1 6 star nexus and 1 featured six star in just 5k shards for each and other stuffs like tier 5 class catalyst fragments,tier 2 alphas,tier 1 alpha according to Kabam's perspective.
There would be exploration reward and 16 paths but you won't be able to do more than 2 paths a week(FOR 8 paths you can only use 4 stars).you will be provided 1 generic 4 star rank 4 to 5 gem each month.So,it would be pretty engaging for 2 months and after you finish there,you will have another content ready. (Toughness of the fight would be decided according to your feedback)
My opinion here is the end game players are a small minority of the overall player base and Kabam are releasing content which caters to the enjoyment of the majority.
With rosters like yours, I’d imagine practically all content will be easy as you have counters for literally everything.
My opinion here is the end game players are a small minority of the overall player base and Kabam are releasing content which caters to the enjoyment of the majority.
With rosters like yours, I’d imagine practically all content will be easy as you have counters for literally everything.
But everyone will eventually catch up to where endgame players are now. That's the thing with permanent content. If you can't do it now, you'll get there eventually.
I don't agree with the Act 6 philosophy, but the attitude of telling the highest spending backet of the game "tough luck, we don't care because there are so few of you" is terrible. In fact, it's a great way to kill the game.
I’m not saying that I agree with it, I’m just saying what I think Kabam are trying to do based on their last few content releases.
And to play devils advocate, I’d argue it would be worse for Kabam to lean towards the harder (act 6) side with new content as that would put off the larger majority of the player base.
Also, how do you know ALL end-gamers are in the highest spending bracket? I wouldn’t be surprised if the players you’re associating with that bracket make up even 5% of the entire player base. I assume by endgame you mean all content completed in the game.
I'm not an Endgame player, I'm F2p, I don't grind arena and I'm not a particularly great player. I'm not even Thronebreaker as I don't have any R3s. Having completed 7.1 and v6, I found them both to be enjoyable, especially 7.1 However neither of them were super challenging, and I think the people with stacked rosters of R3 6 stars will have very few problems getting through that content.
So I understand why people want more difficult content, although I find it hard to sympathise with their cause because so many of them keep trying to belittle the achievements of others by bragging about how the content was a joke to them, and saying that they're just giving the rewards away. You're just making yourselves seem as if you're unable to comprehend the idea that other people could have different experiences to you, it's really not helping your case.
I think the best way to challenge Endgame players is to have content that locks you from using any items. When you've done everything in the game and have a full stash of items you can just use a revive and keep going if you mess up in a quest, it's hard to feel that there's any danger of you "losing" which might make the quest seem boring. If you can't bring items in then you have to actually play well instead of falling back on your stash. Of course it needs to be difficult too, even for R3 6 stars.
As for the rewards, they need to be exciting to endgame players but not be so good that they push the game on too fast. People never seem to be able to get the two together, it's either materials to R4 a 6 star, which would totally unbalance the game or profile pics and titles, which are not enticing at all. I think the best solution to this problem is to have trophy champs (or parts of trophy champs like they did with Platpool) as the rewards for these super hard Endgame quests. Since you can't just buy your way through this content it would make the champs seem more like trophies.
I think Weapon X is a good standard for future trophy champs. He's an alternate version of a character that's more readily available, so people can't complain that they can't get that character. Weapon X is also a good champ that looks fun to play and can be brought into tough content like act 6. However he isn't a game changing champion and no one is going to be complaining that they can't finish a certain peice of content without weapon X. He's a desirable prize that is worth ranking up and will have a place in your roster, but is far from a neccesity to have.
So to sum up, what we need is permanent (or maybe on a yearly rotation) content aimed at R3 6 stars that locks you out of using items and offers a new trophy champ at the same standard as weapon X as the central reward (you can stick other rewards in there too like a bit of t5cc and 6* Shards but the trophy champ is the main draw) for full exploration. The content should be challenging for everyone that attempts it, something that will take multiple attempts for even the top players, (apart from maybe Swedeah, I don't think anything could challenge him) and preferably force you to learn a new technique, in fact that should be the focus of the quest. Kabam could release a couple of these a year, and make it explicit that these are for endgame players.
“For example, a quest for Thronebreakers(or a different requirement) that entails Act 6 level opponents with challenging nodes that aren’t very niche, but still very challenging. But with some sort of twist, like an itemban, or a limit of a 1 or 2 champion team limit, or a gate that allows only 3*s or below. Any combination of something like that. “
You want 300-400k healthpools done with 3*’s? It sounds like you just want to make everyone have a miserable time playing the game, the direction they’re currently going is fine. Like the several posts mentioned before, clear the content with lower ranked champs or with bad champs. You mentioned you had the top villains so Ofcourse you’re going to faceroll through the content, why not do the entire exploration with 4*’s? Not going to lie, the forums is getting way too toxic lately with all these complaints, but what can you expect when you clear content as soon as it arrives instead of pacing yourself and perhaps using weaker champs for the extra challenge?
OR. OR. OR. He said OR. "Any combination of something like that", was something th hat was also said. Read before jumping down throats
Not sure why people think every endgame player did abyss in a week? Even took me like 2 months, and we have players in my alliance who haven’t finished it.
Also, for the people that disagree, what do you suggest endgame players do in their spare time then? What SHOULD they be doing? Summer of Pain was promised and delayed.
Comments
I firmly believe there is a tipping point.
A point where no matter how difficult the content is, you’re going to be able to do it. Because our rosters are continually growing, vertically and horizontally. Eventually nothing feels niche because we have all the counters. If there is a niche right that requires a ‘bad champ’ we’ve probably got the resources to take them up to a decent rank without it hurting us too much.
To me this tipping point occurs when you’re pretty much caught up on content.
Being honest, I’m not sure Kabam can actually release content that would satisfy the gluttons for punishment. No matter how difficult it is, chances are we’ll have it done in a couple of weeks. I do think we need more challenging content, 7.1 and V6 were a lot of fun, but they were easy. They weren’t absolute cake walks, but they weren’t act 6 either. Nor should they be
I never want to see a return to act 6. Ever. The difficulty in that content didn’t come from the complexity of the fights or the skill requirement, it came down to perpetual roster checks. Which doesn’t satisfy either camp. You have endgame players barely feeling the nicheness and progressing players being constantly hindered.
I don’t know if there is an answer here. There has been so much discussion over the past few weeks about difficulty but no one seems to have solutions. I don’t either. I don’t know if there is. Personally, I’ve got a pretty stacked account at this point, at least horizontally. I felt 7.1 could have been more difficult but I don’t mind if it stays how it is, because I had fun
Anyway, ramble over. I broadly agree with you puff, but not entirely
Although yous would probably still find a way to complain it was too easy. It would also kill the game.
You want 300-400k healthpools done with 3*’s? It sounds like you just want to make everyone have a miserable time playing the game, the direction they’re currently going is fine. Like the several posts mentioned before, clear the content with lower ranked champs or with bad champs. You mentioned you had the top villains so Ofcourse you’re going to faceroll through the content, why not do the entire exploration with 4*’s? Not going to lie, the forums is getting way too toxic lately with all these complaints, but what can you expect when you clear content as soon as it arrives instead of pacing yourself and perhaps using weaker champs for the extra challenge?
I think that the difficulty will come back, we’ve got used to Act 6’s brutality pre-nerf, so this is easy for us, but it’s probably about right if Act 6’a difficulty curved naturally from Act 5 without the insane spike. What it has done is made so many of us very good players compared to what we were during Act 5. A lot of us don’t even flinch at an 80-90k PI champion now, no matter the nodes we just go to the drawing board, so there’s been a quite an attitude shift from the more endgame players.
I expected 7.1 to come in easy as it’s their first real foray into ‘fun but challenging’ content, and it is a very fine balance between fun but hard and just dumb.
Also, I 100% agree on the rewards - I need about 30 T2A to use up my T5B.
And they aren’t good fights. That’s why I said I don’t want to see a return to act 6. Niche or BS might be challenging but it’s not a good challenging. As I said, it doesn’t satisfy either champ, to be honest I’ve got no idea what point you’re trying to get at here
Players like me can then start to explore when the new content gets released.
The final 10% of the champion, pre nerf, I actually think is the route they should go down. Fights with a fairly high skill requirements rather than a roster requirement. Most mystics, slow champs, even Kamala Khan and Squirrel girl can do that fight. It’s the timing and spacing that makes it difficult. If they’re making ‘endgame content’, that’s the direction I want them to lean. But not go as far as no retreat, that was insane
BREAKER OF THRONES difficulty side event every 2 months where anybody else won't be able to even enter that quest.But yeah rewards still need to be balanced there.But something like access to 1 6 star nexus and 1 featured six star in just 5k shards for each and other stuffs like tier 5 class catalyst fragments,tier 2 alphas,tier 1 alpha according to Kabam's perspective.
There would be exploration reward and 16 paths but you won't be able to do more than 2 paths a week(FOR 8 paths you can only use 4 stars).you will be provided 1 generic 4 star rank 4 to 5 gem each month.So,it would be pretty engaging for 2 months and after you finish there,you will have another content ready.
(Toughness of the fight would be decided according to your feedback)
With rosters like yours, I’d imagine practically all content will be easy as you have counters for literally everything.
And to play devils advocate, I’d argue it would be worse for Kabam to lean towards the harder (act 6) side with new content as that would put off the larger majority of the player base.
Also, how do you know ALL end-gamers are in the highest spending bracket? I wouldn’t be surprised if the players you’re associating with that bracket make up even 5% of the entire player base. I assume by endgame you mean all content completed in the game.
Having completed 7.1 and v6, I found them both to be enjoyable, especially 7.1
However neither of them were super challenging, and I think the people with stacked rosters of R3 6 stars will have very few problems getting through that content.
So I understand why people want more difficult content, although I find it hard to sympathise with their cause because so many of them keep trying to belittle the achievements of others by bragging about how the content was a joke to them, and saying that they're just giving the rewards away. You're just making yourselves seem as if you're unable to comprehend the idea that other people could have different experiences to you, it's really not helping your case.
I think the best way to challenge Endgame players is to have content that locks you from using any items. When you've done everything in the game and have a full stash of items you can just use a revive and keep going if you mess up in a quest, it's hard to feel that there's any danger of you "losing" which might make the quest seem boring. If you can't bring items in then you have to actually play well instead of falling back on your stash. Of course it needs to be difficult too, even for R3 6 stars.
As for the rewards, they need to be exciting to endgame players but not be so good that they push the game on too fast. People never seem to be able to get the two together, it's either materials to R4 a 6 star, which would totally unbalance the game or profile pics and titles, which are not enticing at all. I think the best solution to this problem is to have trophy champs (or parts of trophy champs like they did with Platpool) as the rewards for these super hard Endgame quests. Since you can't just buy your way through this content it would make the champs seem more like trophies.
I think Weapon X is a good standard for future trophy champs. He's an alternate version of a character that's more readily available, so people can't complain that they can't get that character. Weapon X is also a good champ that looks fun to play and can be brought into tough content like act 6. However he isn't a game changing champion and no one is going to be complaining that they can't finish a certain peice of content without weapon X. He's a desirable prize that is worth ranking up and will have a place in your roster, but is far from a neccesity to have.
So to sum up, what we need is permanent (or maybe on a yearly rotation) content aimed at R3 6 stars that locks you out of using items and offers a new trophy champ at the same standard as weapon X as the central reward (you can stick other rewards in there too like a bit of t5cc and 6* Shards but the trophy champ is the main draw) for full exploration. The content should be challenging for everyone that attempts it, something that will take multiple attempts for even the top players, (apart from maybe Swedeah, I don't think anything could challenge him) and preferably force you to learn a new technique, in fact that should be the focus of the quest. Kabam could release a couple of these a year, and make it explicit that these are for endgame players.
Also, I definitely agree with you OP.