So about those prices….they suck lol given the general response I suppose that’s a given tho. So if you’re gonna keep prices this high(which again why???) I’d HOPE you’re gonna increase potion size and allow players better access to more loyalty than they’re getting atm bc players are gonna struggle getting enough for both potions AND boosts at this point. Not everyone is down to spending units(and some people cash) to compete in these war seasons. …granted I never understood the need to separate AQ and AW potions anyway.
Therein lies the fundamental problem. Not to disregard how people feel about these changes, because people have the right to their opinion. As long as the game is a "Freemium"-style game, people will have the ability to advance faster and better through spending. The game guarantees everyone can play for free. What it doesn't guarantee is that everyone will be able to compete at the highest levels for free. We can't always expect to be at the top without spending. That's pretty much a universal truth with games that allow for spending. As unfair as people think it is, that's just how it goes.
What is so surprising is the numbers they used were before the compensation started, which was the START of proliferation of r3s in war. Who is incharge of these delusional decisions? now exclusively r3s are used in war, with r4s as well. 9.5 heals NOTHING. Upon that, you have delayed the start of these potions to AFTER war season start, so we are starting with ZERO potions. Incompetence at its finest, what a joke of a change. To think i actually had hope in this announcement. You guys just killed the flourishing war scene.
We did not ignore the inflation of HP from Rank 3 to Rank 4, and included those in our calculations. We based it on the average number of potions used, then inflated for the change.
Well it wasn’t properly calculated.
I’m not going to argue that this is significantly better than last week’s situation but then that’s not really saying much. Honestly the largest issue here is the potency of potions. Even the level 5 potions take a bit out of your item cap when you’re using some like Apoc, who is probably my most used attacker.
One of the significant problems that I see here is that I can buy 4 potions if I win - I’m in T1 so I get a decent level loyalty by the looks of it - but further down the rankings it’s a sorry story, especially as these are the players who die far more regularly.
This will actually kill war for the lower tiers even more than higher tiers unless access to loyalty is further increased or prices are reduced; ideally both.
So about those prices….they suck lol given the general response I suppose that’s a given tho. So if you’re gonna keep prices this high(which again why???) I’d HOPE you’re gonna increase potion size and allow players better access to more loyalty than they’re getting atm bc players are gonna struggle getting enough for both potions AND boosts at this point. Not everyone is down to spending units(and some people cash) to compete in these war seasons. …granted I never understood the need to separate AQ and AW potions anyway.
Therein lies the fundamental problem. Not to disregard how people feel about these changes, because people have the right to their opinion. As long as the game is a "Freemium"-style game, people will have the ability to advance faster and better through spending. The game guarantees everyone can play for free. What it doesn't guarantee is that everyone will be able to compete at the highest levels for free. We can't always expect to be at the top without spending. That's pretty much a universal truth with games that allow for spending. As unfair as people think it is, that's just how it goes.
I don't disagree - but wouldn't it be nice if they just had one game mode where non-spenders could compete with spenders at the highest level? The older this game gets, the more (it seems) they want to nickel and dime the player base. We already know they plan to monetize the hell out of Battlegrounds.
I am not an AW fan, but I've at least found it more fun and engaging when I haven't had to allocate resources to the mode. The best thing they could do for AW is to keep providing the boosts and pots weekly. We know it won't happen, but it would keep people engaged rather than running for the hills (which, for the record, I doubt will actually happen).
@GroundedWisdom get out of this thread, you don’t have the experience to comment on war issues, do you even play war?
We took the Season off because we organized too late. Normally we do. I've been a voice on War as long as I've been on the Forum. I was in the first Beta for them. I've had numerous suggestions on them. I don't need to provide a resume, but since you asked...I'm not going anywhere. Perhaps you could disagree in a more mature manner.
So about those prices….they suck lol given the general response I suppose that’s a given tho. So if you’re gonna keep prices this high(which again why???) I’d HOPE you’re gonna increase potion size and allow players better access to more loyalty than they’re getting atm bc players are gonna struggle getting enough for both potions AND boosts at this point. Not everyone is down to spending units(and some people cash) to compete in these war seasons. …granted I never understood the need to separate AQ and AW potions anyway.
Therein lies the fundamental problem. Not to disregard how people feel about these changes, because people have the right to their opinion. As long as the game is a "Freemium"-style game, people will have the ability to advance faster and better through spending. The game guarantees everyone can play for free. What it doesn't guarantee is that everyone will be able to compete at the highest levels for free. We can't always expect to be at the top without spending. That's pretty much a universal truth with games that allow for spending. As unfair as people think it is, that's just how it goes.
I don't disagree - but wouldn't it be nice if they just had one game mode where non-spenders could compete with spenders at the highest level? The older this game gets, the more (it seems) they want to nickel and dime the player base. We already know they plan to monetize the hell out of Battlegrounds.
I am not an AW fan, but I've at least found it more fun and engaging when I haven't had to allocate resources to the mode. The best thing they could do for AW is to keep providing the boosts and pots weekly. We know it won't happen, but it would keep people engaged rather than running for the hills (which, for the record, I doubt will actually happen).
The issue is the competitive nature of War. Would it be nice? Sure. In fact, there are some areas that people compete for free. Very few that spending alone dominates. I hear you, I'm just saying it's how it is.
They arent fixing it. They just added the mid season update for Alliance quest and included the same potion design in the notes. This company is the most fraudulent company out there. Absolute joke
They are in fact working on what I would describe as substantive changes to the potion system. However, in my opinion they rushed the first announcement without properly vetting it, and it contained huge errors in data and design as a result. I don't think they want to make the same mistake twice, and are being extra cautious before releasing any information about the changes being contemplated and reviewed.
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
I’ve heard something different.
What have you heard? Because my information comes from a pretty reliable source.
My information comes from direct knowledge of what the changes will be. I suspect your reliable source is leaking intermittent random information from a very extensive and complex discussion.
The reason why this stuff takes as long as it does is because it isn't enough to just say the devs are wrong. You have to figure out why they are wrong, how they arrived at the wrong numbers, because you can't just tell them two is wrong, it should be eight, and then they can just pencil eight in there. There has to be a system, a logic that generates the eight. You have to hash out which guiding principles led the devs to two, and what we have to replace them with that will lead them to an eight. And there were several principles built into the original announcement that needed to be isolated, discussed, and replaced by general agreement.
This takes time, this takes a lot of work, and this is easy to mischaracterize from the outside. Personally, I'm a chatter box. If it was up to me, I would be posting regular updates on the process itself. But that's not for me to do. Absent that, I can say that the people on the outside saying how easy it should be to just "change the numbers" with a snap of the fingers and "fix" the system simply have no understanding of how any of this works, or how much effort the players with direct feedback channels are expending to try to work with the devs to improve things. That's not Kabam being intransigent, that's just the reality of development. You have to make a logical case, backed up with strong evidence, and build consensus to change things, because every game change, even the horrible ones, were also generated from the same foundation. If that foundation is flawed, it is not enough to point out its flaws. You have to replace it with something better.
In any case, everyone will be able to judge for themselves soon enough.
So they announced the "fix" and it does sound alot like what I explained. Loyalty increase of 54k per win, a limit of 5 you can purchase...oh but they did give us a 1 day timer for the reset...God bless, with all that loyalty they are giving out per win the 1 day timer is sooo clutch
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
1. Potions are not limited to seven per week. They are limited to forty per day on a sliding cost scale. Even if we only count the largest solo and team potions as the most efficient ones, and even if we only count the initial two that start with lower stepped costs, that's still four per day or twenty eight per week, which in no universe rounds to about seven.
2. Loyalty increase was substantial. Unless you could increasing total loyalty earned by a factor of three on average to be not substantial. On top of that, loyalty isn't just increased for wins, it also increases for losses which means alliances do not need to win at a high percentage to benefit from the loyalty gains. Above Normal difficulty the loyalty earned from losses is about twice as high as it used to be for wins. I would consider that substantial.
If what you described and what was announced sounds similar to you, I'm not sure what would sound different. A billion loyalty per war and a fifty potion limit per minute?
Again if you don’t win you start to losing alot so the system how flaw stop defending Kabam now I’m tierd of it I’m pretty sure you in CCP but don’t said this is golden because it ain’t I’m ready to leave the game again can’t hav faith in Kabam.
Whether someone likes the updated system depends on a lot of factors. The shift away from glory is going to help a lot of players who can now hold onto more glory, provided they can keep up with loyalty. Low to intermediate potion users are likely to come out ahead. High potion users are likely to be more constrained with this system. That's something I think should be further tackled, but specific numbers would be helpful.
The argument I've made is that balancing around averages is fraught with problems, specifically because potion use ranges across a very wide range of different situations. But how many people are in those situations, and what they are specifically doing to try to manage those situations is not something datamining can really fully articulate. If players want to see further changes to the system, the best thing to do would be to be specific. What were you doing before, specifically. What do you think you'll have to do now, specifically. What's the gap between the two.
"This sucks because its pay to win and impossible to do war and too expensive" might be true, but it is also not going to change anything without specifics. The changes incorporate a lot of specific situations. If you want yours to be heard, you have to make the case specifically.
73k and 84.5k health...players could ONLY use the 14k compensation potions to heal. We're not allowed to use the 6k glory potions or we'd risk iteming out *on chip damage alone*.
If you fight Doom on Node 26 using Apoc and lose half your 84k health, you can't spend 7 items on 6k potions cause you might have another 3-4 fights left. You need to use the 14s...and even that was stretching the limits. I know skilled players with heavy duty Herc assignments ending rough wars with 0-5 items remaining just on 14k potions..
6k weren't usable at all, and 9.5k is not enough cause it takes 9 and 10 items to heal these r4s.
14k potions are a minimum at this point, and they need to be as cheap as the 6ks were. The meta has changed (you changed it, we didn't), we can't play like it's 2019 anymore.
These changes don't work, please take it back and fix it.
EXACTLY this. We dont want your piddy 9k pots, give us the bigger ones for cheaper, or reduce healthpools across everything evenly so we can use said piddly potions.
What is so surprising is the numbers they used were before the compensation started, which was the START of proliferation of r3s in war. Who is incharge of these delusional decisions? now exclusively r3s are used in war, with r4s as well. 9.5 heals NOTHING. Upon that, you have delayed the start of these potions to AFTER war season start, so we are starting with ZERO potions. Incompetence at its finest, what a joke of a change. To think i actually had hope in this announcement. You guys just killed the flourishing war scene.
We did not ignore the inflation of HP from Rank 3 to Rank 4, and included those in our calculations. We based it on the average number of potions used, then inflated for the change.
So tell me Miike, r4 apoc, unboosted, is 52k health. boosted, 70-80k health. The potions you guys are offering us, heal 9.5k. One near death/death bankrupts us now? healing him also equates to 3 wins in war. What sort of calculations/justifications has the team done?
That's not the question we set out to answer. The question was "How many Glory Potions did Summoners use on a regular basis". That is what we based our calculations on. People were not regularly fully healing their Champions with potions they got from the Glory store.
Why was that the question addressed though? I don't think that that's the correct question to ask for 2 reasons.
1. There were complaints about healing system before compensation started. It could be and is very likely that people were not healing completely due to the system in place at the time. So if you are building off a flawed system then the current one which is supposed to be scaled to the previous one would be flawed as well.
2. As others have pointed out this is not to even mention the changes that have undergone to AW, since the time data is being drawn from, such as attacker bans.
They arent fixing it. They just added the mid season update for Alliance quest and included the same potion design in the notes. This company is the most fraudulent company out there. Absolute joke
They are in fact working on what I would describe as substantive changes to the potion system. However, in my opinion they rushed the first announcement without properly vetting it, and it contained huge errors in data and design as a result. I don't think they want to make the same mistake twice, and are being extra cautious before releasing any information about the changes being contemplated and reviewed.
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
I’ve heard something different.
What have you heard? Because my information comes from a pretty reliable source.
My information comes from direct knowledge of what the changes will be. I suspect your reliable source is leaking intermittent random information from a very extensive and complex discussion.
The reason why this stuff takes as long as it does is because it isn't enough to just say the devs are wrong. You have to figure out why they are wrong, how they arrived at the wrong numbers, because you can't just tell them two is wrong, it should be eight, and then they can just pencil eight in there. There has to be a system, a logic that generates the eight. You have to hash out which guiding principles led the devs to two, and what we have to replace them with that will lead them to an eight. And there were several principles built into the original announcement that needed to be isolated, discussed, and replaced by general agreement.
This takes time, this takes a lot of work, and this is easy to mischaracterize from the outside. Personally, I'm a chatter box. If it was up to me, I would be posting regular updates on the process itself. But that's not for me to do. Absent that, I can say that the people on the outside saying how easy it should be to just "change the numbers" with a snap of the fingers and "fix" the system simply have no understanding of how any of this works, or how much effort the players with direct feedback channels are expending to try to work with the devs to improve things. That's not Kabam being intransigent, that's just the reality of development. You have to make a logical case, backed up with strong evidence, and build consensus to change things, because every game change, even the horrible ones, were also generated from the same foundation. If that foundation is flawed, it is not enough to point out its flaws. You have to replace it with something better.
In any case, everyone will be able to judge for themselves soon enough.
So they announced the "fix" and it does sound alot like what I explained. Loyalty increase of 54k per win, a limit of 5 you can purchase...oh but they did give us a 1 day timer for the reset...God bless, with all that loyalty they are giving out per win the 1 day timer is sooo clutch
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
1. Potions are not limited to seven per week. They are limited to forty per day on a sliding cost scale. Even if we only count the largest solo and team potions as the most efficient ones, and even if we only count the initial two that start with lower stepped costs, that's still four per day or twenty eight per week, which in no universe rounds to about seven.
2. Loyalty increase was substantial. Unless you could increasing total loyalty earned by a factor of three on average to be not substantial. On top of that, loyalty isn't just increased for wins, it also increases for losses which means alliances do not need to win at a high percentage to benefit from the loyalty gains. Above Normal difficulty the loyalty earned from losses is about twice as high as it used to be for wins. I would consider that substantial.
If what you described and what was announced sounds similar to you, I'm not sure what would sound different. A billion loyalty per war and a fifty potion limit per minute?
@DNA3000 this is one argument you cannot justify. The potions are small, too expensive, and arent worth using. Giving real time situations where kabam systems DO NOT WORK. The numbers are pulled from the wrong times, the inflation rate is wrong.
We can give real time situations where this system fails and wont work as it has over the last few months. The compensation potions began a completely different meta, along with the usage of potions. A simple example is my own alliance, we were chill in war till the compensation meta, and are now duking it out in p1.
When designing a system, you consider the extreme conditions, which in this case is the high tier alliance war meta, and then see usage there first to see if the use case succeeds. This iteration fails spectacularly because the devs decided to extrapolate off the average of the playerbase, which is such a harebrained move it is almost laughable.
I can write an essay if you ask to balance the load across players because that is totally based off war maps, lane placements, and rosters.
@Kabam Miike please let the dev team note that this system is dead on arrival. Maybe ask your new hire Jnik to see how much he heals at SSX first before pushing such a system into place.
They arent fixing it. They just added the mid season update for Alliance quest and included the same potion design in the notes. This company is the most fraudulent company out there. Absolute joke
They are in fact working on what I would describe as substantive changes to the potion system. However, in my opinion they rushed the first announcement without properly vetting it, and it contained huge errors in data and design as a result. I don't think they want to make the same mistake twice, and are being extra cautious before releasing any information about the changes being contemplated and reviewed.
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
I’ve heard something different.
What have you heard? Because my information comes from a pretty reliable source.
My information comes from direct knowledge of what the changes will be. I suspect your reliable source is leaking intermittent random information from a very extensive and complex discussion.
The reason why this stuff takes as long as it does is because it isn't enough to just say the devs are wrong. You have to figure out why they are wrong, how they arrived at the wrong numbers, because you can't just tell them two is wrong, it should be eight, and then they can just pencil eight in there. There has to be a system, a logic that generates the eight. You have to hash out which guiding principles led the devs to two, and what we have to replace them with that will lead them to an eight. And there were several principles built into the original announcement that needed to be isolated, discussed, and replaced by general agreement.
This takes time, this takes a lot of work, and this is easy to mischaracterize from the outside. Personally, I'm a chatter box. If it was up to me, I would be posting regular updates on the process itself. But that's not for me to do. Absent that, I can say that the people on the outside saying how easy it should be to just "change the numbers" with a snap of the fingers and "fix" the system simply have no understanding of how any of this works, or how much effort the players with direct feedback channels are expending to try to work with the devs to improve things. That's not Kabam being intransigent, that's just the reality of development. You have to make a logical case, backed up with strong evidence, and build consensus to change things, because every game change, even the horrible ones, were also generated from the same foundation. If that foundation is flawed, it is not enough to point out its flaws. You have to replace it with something better.
In any case, everyone will be able to judge for themselves soon enough.
So they announced the "fix" and it does sound alot like what I explained. Loyalty increase of 54k per win, a limit of 5 you can purchase...oh but they did give us a 1 day timer for the reset...God bless, with all that loyalty they are giving out per win the 1 day timer is sooo clutch
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
1. Potions are not limited to seven per week. They are limited to forty per day on a sliding cost scale. Even if we only count the largest solo and team potions as the most efficient ones, and even if we only count the initial two that start with lower stepped costs, that's still four per day or twenty eight per week, which in no universe rounds to about seven.
2. Loyalty increase was substantial. Unless you could increasing total loyalty earned by a factor of three on average to be not substantial. On top of that, loyalty isn't just increased for wins, it also increases for losses which means alliances do not need to win at a high percentage to benefit from the loyalty gains. Above Normal difficulty the loyalty earned from losses is about twice as high as it used to be for wins. I would consider that substantial.
If what you described and what was announced sounds similar to you, I'm not sure what would sound different. A billion loyalty per war and a fifty potion limit per minute?
I'm confused @DNA3000 are you actually in agreement with this change? Because if you really do play on p1 then you must be working for kabam with all this pro kabam talk. It does take a genius to see that the player base was screwed here. Simply leaving this the way it was was a better resolution versus this change. We can all agree(except maybe yourself as a pro kabam player) that mcoc has a ton of other issues they can focus on as this update did not warrant their time and resources. Of course it is obvious to focus on the most efficient potions as their is an item limit. With that being said the cost of those potions would be around 160k per day. While winning 3 wars a week gets you 162k of loyalty a week. Let's add that 1k a week for hitting help, because that scale has been around forever and needs no update. 169k of loyalty per week. How exactly are we able to purchase potions daily? Just because they "gave" us the ability to purchase potions doesn't mean they actually gave us the currency to do so. Let's now assume you don't purchase 5 in a day to avoid the scale increase. You can purchase one a day for a total of 140k and 2 extra on 2 days for a total of 45k...this gives you 9 potions for a a cost of 185k. Remember you have to win every war and get 169k weekly, so you can't afford that 9th potion. You have 8 potions of 9.5k hp for 3 wars. Roughly 3 per war....of course you wouldn't be able to afford Grey boosts or class boosts with this method. I'm not asking for a billion on loyalty, but being realistic they did not make these potions accessible to us simply by offering them.
@DNA3000 with the growing health pools in the game this is the perfect time to take away our ability to use glory 😤
@DNA3000 You want specific case, here goes. A tier 5 alliance winning 2 wars out of 3 every week (above average) gets 75k loyalty with the new system. Thats 3 heal pots and 1-2 buffs per week. That means those player will have access to 1 heal pot and 0.7 buff per war!
In what world does that make sense? Data collection and fancy math is all good and well but common sense should still prevail at some point.
i guess this system will expand the gap between casual and pro player fast In other words, its all about money. You might think we love your generous change 7 to 1 day and pray to kabam... guess no But i also think you don't care about it, change the title of the game, KCOM - kabam contest of money
They arent fixing it. They just added the mid season update for Alliance quest and included the same potion design in the notes. This company is the most fraudulent company out there. Absolute joke
They are in fact working on what I would describe as substantive changes to the potion system. However, in my opinion they rushed the first announcement without properly vetting it, and it contained huge errors in data and design as a result. I don't think they want to make the same mistake twice, and are being extra cautious before releasing any information about the changes being contemplated and reviewed.
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
I’ve heard something different.
What have you heard? Because my information comes from a pretty reliable source.
My information comes from direct knowledge of what the changes will be. I suspect your reliable source is leaking intermittent random information from a very extensive and complex discussion.
The reason why this stuff takes as long as it does is because it isn't enough to just say the devs are wrong. You have to figure out why they are wrong, how they arrived at the wrong numbers, because you can't just tell them two is wrong, it should be eight, and then they can just pencil eight in there. There has to be a system, a logic that generates the eight. You have to hash out which guiding principles led the devs to two, and what we have to replace them with that will lead them to an eight. And there were several principles built into the original announcement that needed to be isolated, discussed, and replaced by general agreement.
This takes time, this takes a lot of work, and this is easy to mischaracterize from the outside. Personally, I'm a chatter box. If it was up to me, I would be posting regular updates on the process itself. But that's not for me to do. Absent that, I can say that the people on the outside saying how easy it should be to just "change the numbers" with a snap of the fingers and "fix" the system simply have no understanding of how any of this works, or how much effort the players with direct feedback channels are expending to try to work with the devs to improve things. That's not Kabam being intransigent, that's just the reality of development. You have to make a logical case, backed up with strong evidence, and build consensus to change things, because every game change, even the horrible ones, were also generated from the same foundation. If that foundation is flawed, it is not enough to point out its flaws. You have to replace it with something better.
In any case, everyone will be able to judge for themselves soon enough.
So they announced the "fix" and it does sound alot like what I explained. Loyalty increase of 54k per win, a limit of 5 you can purchase...oh but they did give us a 1 day timer for the reset...God bless, with all that loyalty they are giving out per win the 1 day timer is sooo clutch
Well from the information that we have heard Kabam 100% wants to keep the potions limited to 7 purchased per week with loyalty. No cap on unit purchases of course. Also the loyalty price won't change but there will be an increase in loyalty given for a win. However, do not expect the increase to be substantial.
1. Potions are not limited to seven per week. They are limited to forty per day on a sliding cost scale. Even if we only count the largest solo and team potions as the most efficient ones, and even if we only count the initial two that start with lower stepped costs, that's still four per day or twenty eight per week, which in no universe rounds to about seven.
2. Loyalty increase was substantial. Unless you could increasing total loyalty earned by a factor of three on average to be not substantial. On top of that, loyalty isn't just increased for wins, it also increases for losses which means alliances do not need to win at a high percentage to benefit from the loyalty gains. Above Normal difficulty the loyalty earned from losses is about twice as high as it used to be for wins. I would consider that substantial.
If what you described and what was announced sounds similar to you, I'm not sure what would sound different. A billion loyalty per war and a fifty potion limit per minute?
Again if you don’t win you start to losing alot so the system how flaw stop defending Kabam now I’m tierd of it I’m pretty sure you in CCP but don’t said this is golden because it ain’t I’m ready to leave the game again can’t hav faith in Kabam.
Whether someone likes the updated system depends on a lot of factors. The shift away from glory is going to help a lot of players who can now hold onto more glory, provided they can keep up with loyalty. Low to intermediate potion users are likely to come out ahead. High potion users are likely to be more constrained with this system. That's something I think should be further tackled, but specific numbers would be helpful.
The argument I've made is that balancing around averages is fraught with problems, specifically because potion use ranges across a very wide range of different situations. But how many people are in those situations, and what they are specifically doing to try to manage those situations is not something datamining can really fully articulate. If players want to see further changes to the system, the best thing to do would be to be specific. What were you doing before, specifically. What do you think you'll have to do now, specifically. What's the gap between the two.
"This sucks because its pay to win and impossible to do war and too expensive" might be true, but it is also not going to change anything without specifics. The changes incorporate a lot of specific situations. If you want yours to be heard, you have to make the case specifically.
If Kabam where’s transparent. There’s didn’t drop this’ll information one week when there walking away from the forums and what you do is just argument for the sick of it my point it 20k is a lot of loyalty and if you lose multiple AW you can’t getting and a wining streak again I’m talking for not hige tier. But middle tier. Can’t and honestly don’t hav a clue how this’ll calculate when in the first place it wrong to only heard from CCP because I’m in shock how so many from CCP things this is right but oh well all there can said is those overhyped a champion it simple dumb
The numbers in this update are fundamentally wrong. I’ve said before that I don’t mind the idea of separating AW and AQ stores and rewards, I think that if done correctly it’ll benefit players massively. I get that that’s the idea behind this, the execution, however is all wrong.
One of the amazing things about the war compensation is that we’ve not had to worry about choosing between game modes as part of my resource juggling. That’s the potential that the loyalty store has but at these prices war is not only going to be extremely difficult for top tier alliances but virtually impossible for lower tier alliances who are going to be able to get a single potion per week.
What needs to happen is that level 5 potions, possibly level 6, need to be in the loyalty store and the prices need to be slashed. At the moment loyalty is used not only for potions but also power boosts which are used in other parts of the game but also mastery cores are there too.
This really needs to be revisited properly. Over half of my alliance has said that this won’t be sustainable for them long term and they’ll play on a far more casual basis when the compensation stops unless there’s serious reform and it’s a similar story from all of the people in the various alliances that I keep in contact with around the P1-masters range. The likes of @Agent_X_zzz will be able to confirm a similar story right at the top of the AW tree.
It’s not difficult to fix this but action needs to be taken as soon as possible.
This was the first season I tracked all my items. Let's not overlook that the Grey Boosts very much so decrease the overall Potion use. Kabam is giving those out weekly like candy and I used sooo many that significantly decreased my overall potion total in Season 32. While I had a decent season and went deathless, a few deaths greatly change that potion use/cost. Deathless is nice but not typical. Die'n a few times in war while happen for most - we are human and make mistakes, assignment mistakes, or just need to do something that just isn't ideal.
Going 6-6 in Tier 1 lets you buy 24 of the 20k Lvl4 Health Potions across the season from the Loyalty Win/Losses. This doesn't account account for any loyalty to be spent on Grey 3min boosts or Class Boosts. Two 9.5k heals per war is so little...
We should have access to buy Lvl5 HPs in the Loyalty Store
Nice that we can get up to x5 potions but the cost is high and looking forward to what additional methods for gaining loyalty will be cause we need it. And make it fun! Hitting the 'Help 10' button x10 is NOT FUN and 1k Loyalty per day is so small. Make some more objectives which are meaningful around being in alliance, being in an alliance long-term (longer you stay the more you can earn - you know... the definition of 'Loyal'), add Loyalty to SA, to the 3-day alliance events, etc.
What is so surprising is the numbers they used were before the compensation started, which was the START of proliferation of r3s in war. Who is incharge of these delusional decisions? now exclusively r3s are used in war, with r4s as well. 9.5 heals NOTHING. Upon that, you have delayed the start of these potions to AFTER war season start, so we are starting with ZERO potions. Incompetence at its finest, what a joke of a change. To think i actually had hope in this announcement. You guys just killed the flourishing war scene.
We did not ignore the inflation of HP from Rank 3 to Rank 4, and included those in our calculations. We based it on the average number of potions used, then inflated for the change.
So tell me Miike, r4 apoc, unboosted, is 52k health. boosted, 70-80k health. The potions you guys are offering us, heal 9.5k. One near death/death bankrupts us now? healing him also equates to 3 wins in war. What sort of calculations/justifications has the team done?
That's not the question we set out to answer. The question was "How many Glory Potions did Summoners use on a regular basis". That is what we based our calculations on. People were not regularly fully healing their Champions with potions they got from the Glory store.
The reason for that is because the glory store potions were already outdated before the compensation started. Outside of the very top end of alliance war where there are players who are consistently finishing all of their paths with 90% everybody used these health potions all season and had to ration them so carefully between war and AQ. One bad war could genuinely ruin your entire season. That wasn’t sustainable then when we were primarily using 5* and it certainly isn’t now when nobody even has 5* on their team unless it’s for a synergy.
What a joke 😂😂 has anyone at kabam actually ever played a T1 war before? If they did I’m certain they would realize this change is bad for everyone
I’d like all of the devs to make an alliance and see where they place. Watching them item out for P4 would prove all of the lack of thought that went into this update.
Sad to see my favourite game mode ruined. Stop talking about "the calculations" and start using your eyes. The only way to get potions is in the loyalty store and 1 win in T1 gives enough for 2 potions. The lower you get in the tiers the more you are screwed. The game is supposed to be fun, you guys have made it impossible to enjoy AW. Allowed to use 15 items but could only realistically use 4? Thats insane.
The calculations done to decide the insane price dont mean someone thought about it, they mean someone mashed their calculator until a number popped up and said thatll do. Do you guys even want people playing your game? Jeez, I love this game but its pretty difficult when changes like this are somehow given the green light.
This coming season will be the last for a large portion of your player base, and its one of the main things many people even play for.
The purchase limit and availability issue was indeed solved with the changes, however it seems like the issue of cost was never addressed/in mind.
Prior to the changes and compensation players have always used loyalty to purchase class boosts and invuln/powerstart/regen boosts and no one buying them regularly could have built up a loyalty stash, now potions are also added to loyalty cost and what was done was simply multiplying the loyalty gained per war by 5 times, thats it?
I doubt your data will show much changes next season while compensation is still going on, but when thats gone, we all know what will happen to the numbers in AW. Then you will realize how much good faith will be needed to draw players back into the mode.
Out of pocket alliance potions are entry fees that will never work. You don't seem to realize it (or refuse to acknowledge it), but many players already spend $3000-$4000 a year on deals just to maintain their spot on a team, why are you risk all of that on something so silly like a potion tax?
Exactly. Dying in AW is and should be THE penalty and the one that matters. Everything else is monetization.
Comments
As long as the game is a "Freemium"-style game, people will have the ability to advance faster and better through spending. The game guarantees everyone can play for free. What it doesn't guarantee is that everyone will be able to compete at the highest levels for free.
We can't always expect to be at the top without spending. That's pretty much a universal truth with games that allow for spending. As unfair as people think it is, that's just how it goes.
I’m not going to argue that this is significantly better than last week’s situation but then that’s not really saying much. Honestly the largest issue here is the potency of potions. Even the level 5 potions take a bit out of your item cap when you’re using some like Apoc, who is probably my most used attacker.
One of the significant problems that I see here is that I can buy 4 potions if I win - I’m in T1 so I get a decent level loyalty by the looks of it - but further down the rankings it’s a sorry story, especially as these are the players who die far more regularly.
This will actually kill war for the lower tiers even more than higher tiers unless access to loyalty is further increased or prices are reduced; ideally both.
I am not an AW fan, but I've at least found it more fun and engaging when I haven't had to allocate resources to the mode. The best thing they could do for AW is to keep providing the boosts and pots weekly. We know it won't happen, but it would keep people engaged rather than running for the hills (which, for the record, I doubt will actually happen).
I've been a voice on War as long as I've been on the Forum. I was in the first Beta for them. I've had numerous suggestions on them. I don't need to provide a resume, but since you asked...I'm not going anywhere.
Perhaps you could disagree in a more mature manner.
The argument I've made is that balancing around averages is fraught with problems, specifically because potion use ranges across a very wide range of different situations. But how many people are in those situations, and what they are specifically doing to try to manage those situations is not something datamining can really fully articulate. If players want to see further changes to the system, the best thing to do would be to be specific. What were you doing before, specifically. What do you think you'll have to do now, specifically. What's the gap between the two.
"This sucks because its pay to win and impossible to do war and too expensive" might be true, but it is also not going to change anything without specifics. The changes incorporate a lot of specific situations. If you want yours to be heard, you have to make the case specifically.
You guys are so out of touch it isn't even funny. @Kabam Miike
1. There were complaints about healing system before compensation started. It could be and is very likely that people were not healing completely due to the system in place at the time. So if you are building off a flawed system then the current one which is supposed to be scaled to the previous one would be flawed as well.
2. As others have pointed out this is not to even mention the changes that have undergone to AW, since the time data is being drawn from, such as attacker bans.
We can give real time situations where this system fails and wont work as it has over the last few months. The compensation potions began a completely different meta, along with the usage of potions. A simple example is my own alliance, we were chill in war till the compensation meta, and are now duking it out in p1.
When designing a system, you consider the extreme conditions, which in this case is the high tier alliance war meta, and then see usage there first to see if the use case succeeds. This iteration fails spectacularly because the devs decided to extrapolate off the average of the playerbase, which is such a harebrained move it is almost laughable.
I can write an essay if you ask to balance the load across players because that is totally based off war maps, lane placements, and rosters.
@Kabam Miike please let the dev team note that this system is dead on arrival. Maybe ask your new hire Jnik to see how much he heals at SSX first before pushing such a system into place.
If you never lose any health, then you’ll never need to get potions! 🤔
@DNA3000 with the growing health pools in the game this is the perfect time to take away our ability to use glory 😤
In what world does that make sense? Data collection and fancy math is all good and well but common sense should still prevail at some point.
In other words, its all about money.
You might think we love your generous change 7 to 1 day and pray to kabam... guess no
But i also think you don't care about it, change the title of the game, KCOM - kabam contest of money
One of the amazing things about the war compensation is that we’ve not had to worry about choosing between game modes as part of my resource juggling. That’s the potential that the loyalty store has but at these prices war is not only going to be extremely difficult for top tier alliances but virtually impossible for lower tier alliances who are going to be able to get a single potion per week.
What needs to happen is that level 5 potions, possibly level 6, need to be in the loyalty store and the prices need to be slashed. At the moment loyalty is used not only for potions but also power boosts which are used in other parts of the game but also mastery cores are there too.
This really needs to be revisited properly. Over half of my alliance has said that this won’t be sustainable for them long term and they’ll play on a far more casual basis when the compensation stops unless there’s serious reform and it’s a similar story from all of the people in the various alliances that I keep in contact with around the P1-masters range. The likes of @Agent_X_zzz will be able to confirm a similar story right at the top of the AW tree.
It’s not difficult to fix this but action needs to be taken as soon as possible.
Going 6-6 in Tier 1 lets you buy 24 of the 20k Lvl4 Health Potions across the season from the Loyalty Win/Losses. This doesn't account account for any loyalty to be spent on Grey 3min boosts or Class Boosts. Two 9.5k heals per war is so little...
We should have access to buy Lvl5 HPs in the Loyalty Store
Nice that we can get up to x5 potions but the cost is high and looking forward to what additional methods for gaining loyalty will be cause we need it. And make it fun! Hitting the 'Help 10' button x10 is NOT FUN and 1k Loyalty per day is so small. Make some more objectives which are meaningful around being in alliance, being in an alliance long-term (longer you stay the more you can earn - you know... the definition of 'Loyal'), add Loyalty to SA, to the 3-day alliance events, etc.
The calculations done to decide the insane price dont mean someone thought about it, they mean someone mashed their calculator until a number popped up and said thatll do. Do you guys even want people playing your game? Jeez, I love this game but its pretty difficult when changes like this are somehow given the green light.
This coming season will be the last for a large portion of your player base, and its one of the main things many people even play for.
This game is so broken. AQ and AW are both awful game modes.
Prior to the changes and compensation players have always used loyalty to purchase class boosts and invuln/powerstart/regen boosts and no one buying them regularly could have built up a loyalty stash, now potions are also added to loyalty cost and what was done was simply multiplying the loyalty gained per war by 5 times, thats it?
I doubt your data will show much changes next season while compensation is still going on, but when thats gone, we all know what will happen to the numbers in AW. Then you will realize how much good faith will be needed to draw players back into the mode.