Alliance Wars Discussion 2.0

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  • KwAmOnKwAmOn Posts: 79
    See why I encourage all to stop trying to respond to someone that does not represent the view of the majority? Let it be. He has his point, and that is that. Let's move on and only comment on people bringing ideas to improve.
  • Moises_HMoises_H Posts: 72
    Moises_H wrote: »
    No door was closed. I'm still here. I'm just not engaging in a discussion about what Tier I'm in or what Rank my Champs are in relation to Defender Kills. I said I have experience organizing Wins. I also said it's entirely possible to

    You just conjectured what I said. I said larger Allies would most often win regardless. Meaning they have the Rosters to do so. All this talk about skill when it was a metric that affected the entire schematic. Crude example. Allies with a 6 Mil Rating going up against Allies of a 12 Mil Rating in Tier 1. Not an actual example, but it highlights the point that the Matches were horribly mismatched. You can call it skill because they died less to get there, but it threw the entire system off. For the longest time, people have maintained that Prestige is all that matters, and Rating doesn't make a difference. Kabam has mentioned that a great deal of factors can be determined by Rating, and I've said multiple times that Rating is a reflection of progression in the game because it signifies time and effort. I've said since the changes have taken place that the Tiers would be more in line with our Rating, and the Matches would reflect that by being closer to our Ally's Rating. For the most part, that's been the case. I'm not saying that the Ally must automatically win because their Rating is larger. I'm saying they are more apt to win, especially when the Match is far off. There is no logical reason why Allies should be Matched with others 2, 3 times their size. Call it skill, call it what you want. Time and effort in an Ally is reflected in its Rating.

    Everyone is always taking what you say out of context or misinterpret what you say, yet you reply back with a whole lot of garbage and fluff and then prove the other persons point by saying the same thing but with different words. If it wasn’t so frustrating it would be hilarious.

    I really hope Kabam brings back defender kills just so I can see you scramble and try and convince yourself and everyone else that you have always been in favour of defender kills as it’s the only fair tie breaker
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,422 ★★★★★
    I've been expressing my views. People have different opinions. I'm sorry if that's outside the logic of the majority, but I'm also not looking at it from the perspective that those metrics are absolutely necessary. I've already said they could readd them and I'd still be against them. It has nothing to do with siding with Kabam. The issues with them speak for themselves. Issues that very few can see because they're arguing for them. I've been accused of repeating the same thing, but the majority of other comments we've heard revolve around Defender Kills, or suggestions that equate the same thing. Which is equally as repetitive. I'm all for hearing different suggestions if there are any. Thus far, all I've seen are suggestions to the same effect. Save for a few I've said I would have no issues with. If people want to dog on me because I have a different view, it doesn't affect me. However, the conversation is not going much further until we get past Defender Kills. That's no more my doing than anyone else's.
  • Defender kills is the only viable solution to fix war(or an equivalent metric for performance). Anything else mentioned here is basically wasted forum space. Kabam won't bring them back though, because they don't care to listen to us. They might as well comment on here that defender kills are not coming back regardless of what is posted here and close the thread.
  • Happy Thanksgiving
  • LocoMotivesLocoMotives Posts: 1,200 ★★★
    Omni wrote: »
    Happy thanksgiving @GroundedWisdom. I hope no one mistook you for a turkey today because your attitude is fowl.

    That’s terrible, and I’m a dad.
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    No door was closed. I'm still here. I'm just not engaging in a discussion about what Tier I'm in or what Rank my Champs are in relation to Defender Kills. I said I have experience organizing Wins. I also said it's entirely possible to have a high success rate if you plan accordingly, and play within the range of the capability of your Ally. It's about finding the sweet spot where your Ally functions best, opening Wars at times where you know people are free, and sometimes not running Wars 3 times a week. We don't like losing. I didn't say what Tier I'm in because it doesn't matter. When we're talking about the War system that affects all Players, that is what I'm addressing, i.e. Defender Kills, Diversity, etc.

    Defender kills should be returned diversity failed. TOP alliances dont see diverse defenses anymore and no one can match our defender ratings. Its a for sure win especially when we manipulate who we fight.

    As was mentioned, the significance of Diversity and Defender Rating is intended to be tie breakers more than anything. If the lineup is still the same, all that does is highlight why Defender Kills are best removed. As for Rating, that's pretty much how it should be. Larger Allies will win regardless. Quite plainly, Allies with lower Ratings really shouldn't be in the highest Tiers.

    Yeah why win on skill lol.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,422 ★★★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    No door was closed. I'm still here. I'm just not engaging in a discussion about what Tier I'm in or what Rank my Champs are in relation to Defender Kills. I said I have experience organizing Wins. I also said it's entirely possible to have a high success rate if you plan accordingly, and play within the range of the capability of your Ally. It's about finding the sweet spot where your Ally functions best, opening Wars at times where you know people are free, and sometimes not running Wars 3 times a week. We don't like losing. I didn't say what Tier I'm in because it doesn't matter. When we're talking about the War system that affects all Players, that is what I'm addressing, i.e. Defender Kills, Diversity, etc.

    Defender kills should be returned diversity failed. TOP alliances dont see diverse defenses anymore and no one can match our defender ratings. Its a for sure win especially when we manipulate who we fight.

    As was mentioned, the significance of Diversity and Defender Rating is intended to be tie breakers more than anything. If the lineup is still the same, all that does is highlight why Defender Kills are best removed. As for Rating, that's pretty much how it should be. Larger Allies will win regardless. Quite plainly, Allies with lower Ratings really shouldn't be in the highest Tiers.

    Yeah why win on skill lol.

    Why go back to the other lineup if it doesn't require skill?
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    It does require skill to get past Nodes. Difference is, no one is losing for dying. Kills are not necessary for skill. Been saying that all along.

    How many expert tier fights have you done? Its easy especially with blade Minis n bosses are solo'd.
  • chunkybchunkyb Posts: 1,435 Content Creator
    edited November 2017
    What does "kills are not necessary for skill" mean?

    Sorry. Keyboard went stupid
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,422 ★★★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    It does require skill to get past Nodes. Difference is, no one is losing for dying. Kills are not necessary for skill. Been saying that all along.

    How many expert tier fights have you done? Its easy especially with blade Minis n bosses are solo'd.

    Clearly it's not easy for everyone, or people wouldn't be placing repeat blockades in spite of the fact that there are no Kill metrics. The argument is not about skill at all. It's about penalizing the opponent for dying and winning with Kills.
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    It does require skill to get past Nodes. Difference is, no one is losing for dying. Kills are not necessary for skill. Been saying that all along.

    How many expert tier fights have you done? Its easy especially with blade Minis n bosses are solo'd.

    Clearly it's not easy for everyone, or people wouldn't be placing repeat blockades in spite of the fact that there are no Kill metrics. The argument is not about skill at all. It's about penalizing the opponent for dying and winning with Kills.

    So it's better to penalize skilled players?
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    It does require skill to get past Nodes. Difference is, no one is losing for dying. Kills are not necessary for skill. Been saying that all along.

    How many expert tier fights have you done? Its easy especially with blade Minis n bosses are solo'd.

    Clearly it's not easy for everyone, or people wouldn't be placing repeat blockades in spite of the fact that there are no Kill metrics. The argument is not about skill at all. It's about penalizing the opponent for dying and winning with Kills.

    So it's better to penalize skilled players?
    War isn't about who is better because they died less. Never has been. It's about Points. Winning because you have the most Points. Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that people are being penalized by having no Defender Kills.

    Isn't it called war? I didn't know it was called alliance defender rating battle. I guess I'm wrong. Most wars are won by ratings not actual fighting and skill. So I guess your right.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,422 ★★★★★
    It's about Points. It really doesn't matter where the Points come from. It's also called Alliance Wars. Not Personal Skill Wars. Allies work together to gain the most Points, and gain the Win. However the Points come. Somehow it's become a gauge of how skilled Players are because they took personal stock in Kills, but all those Kills amount to at the end of the day are Points. The metrics no longer exist, and it still takes skill to complete, whether people agree with that or not. The point of War is not to separate those who do and do not die. It's to work as an Ally to try and gain the most Points. As I said before, this debate is going nowhere because we have very different views so I'm not going to keep stating my own over and over with this aspect of the conversation. It's called War. That doesn't mean we're on the beaches of Normandy counting heads lost.
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    It's about Points. It really doesn't matter where the Points come from. It's also called Alliance Wars. Not Personal Skill Wars. Allies work together to gain the most Points, and gain the Win. However the Points come. Somehow it's become a gauge of how skilled Players are because they took personal stock in Kills, but all those Kills amount to at the end of the day are Points. The metrics no longer exist, and it still takes skill to complete, whether people agree with that or not. The point of War is not to separate those who do and do not die. It's to work as an Ally to try and gain the most Points. As I said before, this debate is going nowhere because we have very different views so I'm not going to keep stating my own over and over with this aspect of the conversation. It's called War. That doesn't mean we're on the beaches of Normandy counting heads lost.

    How does it not seperate them with this setup?

    Bigger alliances get automatic wins cuz they have more diversity and higher ratings. We can't be beat by lower alliances which creates a huge imbalance in the game. I haven't lost a war since the new setup LOL.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 19,422 ★★★★★
    So you're saying lower Allies were beating you before? Pretty sure that wouldn't be the case the majority of the time regardless. We had Allies that were placed in vastly sparse Matches and the Tiers were not at all in tune with an Ally's size or power. I'm really quite done with the debate right now. It's not going anywhere.
  • Balm82Balm82 Posts: 177
    I get the whole Diversity idea however removing defender kills is none sense. We have won 2/10 AW's on defender rating. but 10/10 on the number of deaths we have had. Either make the nodes super hard so we cant 100% or put in a small amount of points for defender kills 10 points per kill would have won me 7 of the last AW's.
  • linuxlinux Posts: 262
    KwAmOn wrote: »
    See why I encourage all to stop trying to respond to someone that does not represent the view of the majority? Let it be. He has his point, and that is that. Let's move on and only comment on people bringing ideas to improve.

    For me, the issue isn't posters who have unpopular or unpopular opinions -- I want to hear their perspectives. The issue I have is with poster(s) who use trolling techniques (change the subject; make it personal; obviously implausible claims; promising to change; repetitive posts; etc) and who appear to post with an intention other than actually participating in a discussion.

    More on topic: our past wars (T1-T2, more the top of T2, currently 2065 after losing 2), in terms of cleared BGs in the past 7 wars:

    2v3 3v3 3v3 3v3 2v3 3v3 2v3

    So I guess they're making progress on preventing 3x3 100% results -- it was only 4/7 of this set. Progress? The only problems are (1) losing or winning on tie breakers sucks and (2) the mode isn't fun; we do it anyway for loyalty (66555 AQ in this alliance), and because it does provide some shards, but it's not fun.
  • linuxlinux Posts: 262
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    What? Not even sure what you said. Theres no skill to win required in AW currently. High defender rating and 150 diverse defense is an auto win. Outcome already decided before the match starts. Its not a contest or a war its predetermined outcomes that you can't overcome with skill. But you win all wars and compete in expert tier so you should already know.

    We have faced a few alliances who stacked one BG with a number of "difficult" defenders -- 4/55 jugs on buffet, GG on masochism, mephisto, etc. One match in particular we had a few players who started AWO with the wrong champs (embarrassing given that they're revealed at the start, but that'll change eventually) and literally couldn't finish their paths.

    So blockade is a plausible strategy at least with tier 1 nodes -- and against alliances which us it, it takes some skill and some luck to get past them.

    With most defenders though, the map is a joke. And the idea that this brings diversity is only partially correct.

    I'm told that in my BG, the past 12 wars have all had an OG spidey (almost all the 7 I've seen have been 4/55s) on the unblockable L1 miniboss node. They did have different sig levels, maybe that can stand in for diversity?
  • Lmao. Yes gw, in old war... It was totally possible for a lower rated alliance to beat a higher rated alliance. The reason is that word you hate... Skill. My alliance specialized in beating alliances that were 3m higher than us. We never actually beat a +4 alliance but we got really, really close. And you know what? Even tho the matchup sucked, it was fun as hell. Those guys were scared and embarrassed and tried like hell to recruit us every time. Because of skill.

    See the matchup issues would have been much easier to fix directly than screwing up wars. And they'd have made everyone happier instead of making every competitive player miserable.

    Either way. Skill is a real thing. It's something competitive players hone. Not getting dead is part of that skill. Stop trying to strip skill from the equation and replace with collecting and r4ing every champ.
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    I didn't strip skill from the equation. I said Defender Kills are not necessary for skill. Taking shots at me won't change the fact that they're gone. The argument is false because it's not about skill at all. It's about the Wins people gained from Kills. You could just as easily make the statement that people have to use skill now because they can't rely on Kills for the Wins. Depends on what perspective you look at, I suppose.

    Well competitive alliances want skill back in the game. We aren't casual gamers that play map 3.

    How do you make the argument that skill is needed now? KILLS DONT COUNT so you can die 15x with no penalty so just buy the wins as long as your alliance has a higher rating. Listen we get the white knight trolling thats going on, congrats! Going against the majority on every issue just to create a hostile environment. But kabam allows it so its really on them. Most players want defender kills to return, the majority of their paying customers want it returned but free casual players are the one that get the say even though they don't keep the game going by spending.

This discussion has been closed.