take this back to your developers @Kabam Miike because this is exactly what needs to be avoided.
defender kills were allegedly removed to prevent the feeling of discouragement, and as AW continues to have more and more of this type of stuff, there will be more feelings of discouragement from the entirety of AW, not just a single node. you can continue to try to keep telling us that it's not about the money, but that's the only explanation that makes sense now.
I think this is a classic example of understanding the words, but not the spirit, of a complaint. This superficially addresses the problem of MD-everywhere, by handing the players a much more nasty alternative. @Kabam Miike basically told us what is going on here when he said that node 24 is working fine, you just have to bring the right attacker. They made AW into you pick the "right" defender and you win, unless the other side picks the "right" attacker and then you lose. Which is kind of a move-counter-move gameplay option but an extremely reductive one, and fundamentally no different from the thorns nodes they got rid of in AW for I can't imagine what reason now.
And the hilarious part about this...remember about a year ago when Kabam claimed they wanted all champions to be on more of an even playing field? "We want people to be able to rank the people they like and for them to be useful." Well, node 24 is the new thorns with minimal ways to get around it. Very disingenuous IMO.
I don't want to hit them where it isn't warranted, when there are so many fair reasons to hit them. When Kabam says they want all champions to be useful, I'm pretty sure they mean that the way I would mean that (pretty sure, not absolutely sure, since I don't apparently speak Kabamish natively) which is that they want every champion to have some reasonable use somewhere. That doesn't mean every champion should be equally good everywhere.
More directly problematic is the fact that these node buffs only do something if they are strong enough to cause players to switch from diverse defenses to blockade defenses, because without defender kills or a reasonable attacker performance metric the only good replacement for a diverse defender is a blockade defender. And blockade defenders are the evil **** children of two problems Kabam claimed to be trying to solve: the over-abundance of OP mystic defenders, and their own stated "attacker surrender" problem. Eliminating defender kills might encourage an attacker to continue to attack, but those attacks will still be completely futile if they bring the "wrong attacker."
If mystic wars was a problem, I don't see how high regen on 42 is not a problem. The fact that Kabam felt mystic wars was a problem but high regen on 42 is not a problem suggests someone at Kabam believes that the players felt it was boring to be killed by Magik over and over again because of Limbo, but being blockaded at 42 over and over again won't be boring because we won't be sure which high regen defender will be blockading us each time.
This is a textbook example of datamining gone amok. Kabam perceives the players are bored with getting killed by the same defenders repeatedly so they try to change the metric that measures that, thinking that if we are killed over and over on the same node by eight different defenders instead, that's better even though to the players those eight situations are perceived identically. The data doesn't reflect the nature of the problem.
Why is everyone complaining! If I'm willing to spend more than others I deserve to win! Plain and simple! Still beat the boss even though it took me 15 times. *sarcasm*
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
months about this problem and it still persists thats very inconsistent and very odd. If it takes you this long to try and fix it "work on it" as you say and yet there is still problems there is a major disturbance in this game. All players are noticing and yet you don't even acknowledge you're at fault where is the consistency? Where is the logic ? What is even going on with kabam recently? Its been highly unprofessional and you know it. When can we the player catch a break. I love this game but this is ridiculous and absurd.
This discussion will be as useless as the last, unfortunately. Thousands of replies with good content from players who want a good, fun, challenging, and competitive game were FULLY ignored. The only thing more ridiculous than aw2.0 is the iterative process of adding a few new buffs and constantly saying "we're getting closer". And as long as we're just getting closer but not there yet, we really can't possibly look at war rewards yet. That comes at the end. *wink, wink*
If you can't see they don't care about your input now, you never will. This is the game parents play with children.. Child wants to go to the park, parent says we need to do this and this and then we'll see if we can go. This is the relationship we're all in now. Being placated to death while you watch your favorite game fall apart for moronic reasons while trolls and sad wannabe mods spam their unknowledgeable takes.
So save your breath. The plan is already laid out and we're marching towards it. You honestly think it takes 2 weeks of monitoring war and meetings/discussions to come up with the idea of adding a few nodes? Pfft. That's ridiculous even for them.
If you don't like this ridiculous **** we're having to deal with... Just reply with "defender kills". Forever. Because anything else is wasting your time. Hell, that's wasting time too but at least it'd be fun to see a thread full of those replies and it'd make it a little more difficult for the trolls to respond.
Oh yeah. You want things to be done differently? Say so with your wallet.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
You're omitting the part about having a penalty for Kills and Reviving, which is exactly what I was saying. Defense will always be emphasized. That will remain that way, and was stated by them. What is not present is the metrics that allow said attempts to determine the Win. The avenue has changed.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
You're omitting the part about having a penalty for Kills and Reviving, which is exactly what I was saying. Defense will always be emphasized. That will remain that way, and was stated by them. What is not present is the metrics that allow said attempts to determine the Win. The avenue has changed.
I'm also omitting the part where the dinosaurs ruled the Earth, and then a big meteor killed them all. In the current 16.0 iteration defender kill points are irrelevant to blockades because a successful blockade almost always wins due to the intrinsic loss of points past the blockade and the likelihood of the bosses being to expensive to bring down while the links are still up.
It doesn't matter if a blockade wins because it generates points, or a blockade wins because the other side cannot progress. It is still a win generated by placing a defender capable of generating a lot of kills. It is just the extreme end of the scale. Why this is considered reasonable by Kabam when defender kill points are considered unreasonable is inexplicable to (almost) everyone.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
this is one of the rare moments that i disagree with you simply because you're arguing from within their system and their system is what we want changed.
and we have AQ as a modality for working as a team for points, we want a way where AW is competitive and is a constant back and forth instead of static numbers like defender rating, defender diversity, or exploration. having an opponent revive should be a penalty.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
You're omitting the part about having a penalty for Kills and Reviving, which is exactly what I was saying. Defense will always be emphasized. That will remain that way, and was stated by them. What is not present is the metrics that allow said attempts to determine the Win. The avenue has changed.
I'm also omitting the part where the dinosaurs ruled the Earth, and then a big meteor killed them all. In the current 16.0 iteration defender kill points are irrelevant to blockades because a successful blockade almost always wins due to the intrinsic loss of points past the blockade and the likelihood of the bosses being to expensive to bring down while the links are still up.
It doesn't matter if a blockade wins because it generates points, or a blockade wins because the other side cannot progress. It is still a win generated by placing a defender capable of generating a lot of kills. It is just the extreme end of the scale. Why this is considered reasonable by Kabam when defender kill points are considered unreasonable is inexplicable to (almost) everyone.
I'm not debating it endlessly. There is a difference because the issues caused by Defender Kills that were the reason they were removed still stand. Regardless of what the majority thinks, the problems existed. Enough for them to remove them and keep them out. Spending is no more an issue than it was previously. People have always been spending. Difference is people can't penalize the other team with a Loss for doing so. I'm about done debating whether it was a problem or not.
What problems were they which existed @GroundedWisdom? What problems were caused by defender kills? The fact that they were removed is not evidence that there was a problem. Also, spending does become an issue when it becomes increasingly the only way to win. This habit of defending everything Kabam does is leading you down some strange paths lol.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
You're omitting the part about having a penalty for Kills and Reviving, which is exactly what I was saying. Defense will always be emphasized. That will remain that way, and was stated by them. What is not present is the metrics that allow said attempts to determine the Win. The avenue has changed.
I'm also omitting the part where the dinosaurs ruled the Earth, and then a big meteor killed them all. In the current 16.0 iteration defender kill points are irrelevant to blockades because a successful blockade almost always wins due to the intrinsic loss of points past the blockade and the likelihood of the bosses being to expensive to bring down while the links are still up.
It doesn't matter if a blockade wins because it generates points, or a blockade wins because the other side cannot progress. It is still a win generated by placing a defender capable of generating a lot of kills. It is just the extreme end of the scale. Why this is considered reasonable by Kabam when defender kill points are considered unreasonable is inexplicable to (almost) everyone.
Grounded wisdom,
The devils advocate, Kabam doesn't deserve!
But back on the topic of alliance war.
Defender kills... Bring them back... I want to feel the sting of disappointment wen I fail. That feeling makes u Wana get better...
Wats the point in playing a fighting game if u don't Wana win, win well, be the best.
War is about winning ur matches, making sure ur opponent suffers in defeat(defender kill points were great at that)... And bragging about ur alliance's skill.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
#defender kills
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
#defender kills
I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
I don’t see the point in repeatedly posting screenshots where teams have lost despite having way more kills because there’s no way of knowing whether they would have lasted the same way if defender kills counted.
A few wars ago I reached the boss and one of my champs had less than 200 health yet, so I decided to go in, evade at the start and get as many intercept hits in as I could before I lost my champ. I wouldn’t have done this if defender kills counted.
That’s not to say I agree with kabam’s decision (I don’t), but constantly giving examples of wars that have been lost ‘unfairly’ is pretty irrelevant when the other team is playing within the rules of the new system.
I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
Ive got an idea how we could possibly datamine without a doubt whether the majority of players are for or against the current war setup and if we believe defender kills caused such a problem to warrant removal from scoring.
Reintroduce the original AW system alongside the current one. Alliances can choose 1 or the other to participate in. IMO, I dont think it would take that long to get a definitive answer, but lets say we run it for about 2 months(which is similar to the time its taking for the "iterations"). The number of participants and contested wars in each should paint a clear picture on which the player base is more interested in wouldn't you say?
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
#defender kills
I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
On every disagreement between the players and Kabam that I have seen you have been on the Kabam side. You are kind of the lone voice here. You are on the Kabam side whether you call it that or not. You talk about being against defensive kills and many problems that they cause but the only reason given by Kabam is a joke. What reasons? It was never about enjoyment watching the other team die per se, and if you like, the harder map is bringing that back. It was about war. Beating another alliance by playing the game better. Alliances that win by out potioning have often posted that they find the win unsatisfying. "Gaining more points as a team" in the current iteration means out potioning or having higher defensive pi. How is that fun. Guess you failed to be done endlessly debating though.
The 1 and only time Kabam listened (even partially) to the player base was when we cared enough to cooperate. If we are as passionate about the status of AW as we seem to be, then show Kabam we stand together on the issue. An all-stop on playing AW will send the message. Are you ready to commit to the ideas you have been complaining about?
@Lurker I for one believe that an "all stop" is THE only action that could have any chance to get Kabams attn as it has proved in the past. Only problem I see currently is that despite the complaints, allys have been consistently playing AW. I would hope I'm wrong, but not so sure the entire community is willing to come together and forgo the rewards and gameplay in order to get our msg across.
War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.
Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
#defender kills
I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
War has always been about skill and defender kills, all the way back to beta when there were 2* wars and Trojan wars. Whoever died the fewest times would win. That was the point, to determine who had the best skills. It didn't matter if it was 50 fights or just one, whoever made it through with the least amount of ko's would be the winner.
The only issue with defender kills was you took one when you timed out or got disconnected. The newest iteration with harder nodes isn't going to change anything. People will still be discouraged after loosing their team on some jacked up node and will see that the rewards don't equal the cost of items used so they will stop trying. Instead of giving defender kill points, you're forfeiting exploration points. If both teams create equal roadblocks and are stuck with the same amount of exploration, defender rating will still be the only determining factor.
The whole meta is just like AQ, whoever has the highest prestige gets the top prize. Nobody wins wars anymore, they are just given rank rewards in a two rank system. It is not competitive as the results are as scripted as professional wrestling. We want to have the ability to control the outcome with skill, not by buying units for boosts and mastery resets.
Comments
take this back to your developers @Kabam Miike because this is exactly what needs to be avoided.
defender kills were allegedly removed to prevent the feeling of discouragement, and as AW continues to have more and more of this type of stuff, there will be more feelings of discouragement from the entirety of AW, not just a single node. you can continue to try to keep telling us that it's not about the money, but that's the only explanation that makes sense now.
"Alliance Wars are working as intended"
SMH.
I don't want to hit them where it isn't warranted, when there are so many fair reasons to hit them. When Kabam says they want all champions to be useful, I'm pretty sure they mean that the way I would mean that (pretty sure, not absolutely sure, since I don't apparently speak Kabamish natively) which is that they want every champion to have some reasonable use somewhere. That doesn't mean every champion should be equally good everywhere.
More directly problematic is the fact that these node buffs only do something if they are strong enough to cause players to switch from diverse defenses to blockade defenses, because without defender kills or a reasonable attacker performance metric the only good replacement for a diverse defender is a blockade defender. And blockade defenders are the evil **** children of two problems Kabam claimed to be trying to solve: the over-abundance of OP mystic defenders, and their own stated "attacker surrender" problem. Eliminating defender kills might encourage an attacker to continue to attack, but those attacks will still be completely futile if they bring the "wrong attacker."
If mystic wars was a problem, I don't see how high regen on 42 is not a problem. The fact that Kabam felt mystic wars was a problem but high regen on 42 is not a problem suggests someone at Kabam believes that the players felt it was boring to be killed by Magik over and over again because of Limbo, but being blockaded at 42 over and over again won't be boring because we won't be sure which high regen defender will be blockading us each time.
This is a textbook example of datamining gone amok. Kabam perceives the players are bored with getting killed by the same defenders repeatedly so they try to change the metric that measures that, thinking that if we are killed over and over on the same node by eight different defenders instead, that's better even though to the players those eight situations are perceived identically. The data doesn't reflect the nature of the problem.
Well they should feel shame. Noobs.
The great irony here is that Kabam is doing a better job of mooting your position than I ever could. 15.0 AW was in fact a diversity-fest because the difficulty was too low and defender kill points were eliminates causing the best strategy to be full diversity. But ever since then every change has been to crank up node difficulty to the point where 16.0 doesn't just surpass 14.0 in map strength, it almost certainly surpasses 11.0. Kabam is trying to fix diversity-fest with blockade-o-rama and it appears to be working: alliances are moving towards blockade strategies where they have the right defenders. And blockade defenses are about focusing entirely on kills. It is just that instead of getting points for them, the object is to make the defense impassable and cause the other side to give up playing against them altogether.
Someone only reading the forums is going to see the complaints about 100% at the top tiers and people spending their way past blockades and defender rating points deciding wars, and think the problem is still the same as it was in 15.0. But it is not. Kabam is turning war into a binary kill-fest where kills are the only thing that matters, but the only measure of effectiveness is for the other side to completely surrender or run out of money.
You're totally wrong about war. War will be shifting to blockades, and outside of the very top performers blockades are going to work very often. And blockades are a defense strategy that screams "you died more than us so we're better than you." And Kabam is deliberately making it so. @Kabam Miike's "right attacker" statement all but proves it.
Defender Kills
You're omitting the part about having a penalty for Kills and Reviving, which is exactly what I was saying. Defense will always be emphasized. That will remain that way, and was stated by them. What is not present is the metrics that allow said attempts to determine the Win. The avenue has changed.
I'm also omitting the part where the dinosaurs ruled the Earth, and then a big meteor killed them all. In the current 16.0 iteration defender kill points are irrelevant to blockades because a successful blockade almost always wins due to the intrinsic loss of points past the blockade and the likelihood of the bosses being to expensive to bring down while the links are still up.
It doesn't matter if a blockade wins because it generates points, or a blockade wins because the other side cannot progress. It is still a win generated by placing a defender capable of generating a lot of kills. It is just the extreme end of the scale. Why this is considered reasonable by Kabam when defender kill points are considered unreasonable is inexplicable to (almost) everyone.
this is one of the rare moments that i disagree with you simply because you're arguing from within their system and their system is what we want changed.
and we have AQ as a modality for working as a team for points, we want a way where AW is competitive and is a constant back and forth instead of static numbers like defender rating, defender diversity, or exploration. having an opponent revive should be a penalty.
I double dog dare you.
What problems were they which existed @GroundedWisdom? What problems were caused by defender kills? The fact that they were removed is not evidence that there was a problem. Also, spending does become an issue when it becomes increasingly the only way to win. This habit of defending everything Kabam does is leading you down some strange paths lol.
I'm rooting for you there.
The devils advocate, Kabam doesn't deserve!
But back on the topic of alliance war.
Defender kills... Bring them back... I want to feel the sting of disappointment wen I fail. That feeling makes u Wana get better...
Wats the point in playing a fighting game if u don't Wana win, win well, be the best.
War is about winning ur matches, making sure ur opponent suffers in defeat(defender kill points were great at that)... And bragging about ur alliance's skill.
There's no skill in buying a win...
Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
#defender kills
I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
A few wars ago I reached the boss and one of my champs had less than 200 health yet, so I decided to go in, evade at the start and get as many intercept hits in as I could before I lost my champ. I wouldn’t have done this if defender kills counted.
That’s not to say I agree with kabam’s decision (I don’t), but constantly giving examples of wars that have been lost ‘unfairly’ is pretty irrelevant when the other team is playing within the rules of the new system.
On every disagreement between the players and Kabam that I have seen you have been on the Kabam side. You are kind of the lone voice here. You are on the Kabam side whether you call it that or not. You talk about being against defensive kills and many problems that they cause but the only reason given by Kabam is a joke. What reasons? It was never about enjoyment watching the other team die per se, and if you like, the harder map is bringing that back. It was about war. Beating another alliance by playing the game better. Alliances that win by out potioning have often posted that they find the win unsatisfying. "Gaining more points as a team" in the current iteration means out potioning or having higher defensive pi. How is that fun. Guess you failed to be done endlessly debating though.
Kabam awarded them the win because Kabam earned more money from them.
Actually, the logic should be that you guys be awarded the win because you guys earned more money for Kabam. 😇
Or maybe just call it Roster Wars.
War has always been about skill and defender kills, all the way back to beta when there were 2* wars and Trojan wars. Whoever died the fewest times would win. That was the point, to determine who had the best skills. It didn't matter if it was 50 fights or just one, whoever made it through with the least amount of ko's would be the winner.
The only issue with defender kills was you took one when you timed out or got disconnected. The newest iteration with harder nodes isn't going to change anything. People will still be discouraged after loosing their team on some jacked up node and will see that the rewards don't equal the cost of items used so they will stop trying. Instead of giving defender kill points, you're forfeiting exploration points. If both teams create equal roadblocks and are stuck with the same amount of exploration, defender rating will still be the only determining factor.
The whole meta is just like AQ, whoever has the highest prestige gets the top prize. Nobody wins wars anymore, they are just given rank rewards in a two rank system. It is not competitive as the results are as scripted as professional wrestling. We want to have the ability to control the outcome with skill, not by buying units for boosts and mastery resets.