Alliance Wars Discussion 2.0

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  • MSRDLDMSRDLD Posts: 685 ★★★
    ^ 224 defender kills and lost. lmao.

    If Wars weren't necessary so we could get Loyalty I wonder how many alliances would still do them.
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 999 ★★★
    If both teams 100% the map, they should both be rewarded for that. Just like in AQ with the boss kill rewards, there should be something extra given to alliances that clear the map, like grandmaster shards or something.
    The current rewards have stayed the same even though we were told 5* shards would be made more available. Right now there is no incentive to use items when it's clear that you cannot win. Adding extra rewards would change that. Nobody wants to blow their glory, valor, or units when you get the same rewards for not using them.
    You can save that currency for much better things. The way defender rating is working as a "tie breaker" is a joke. Wars are predetermined before attack phase starts. Especially now, with all info on defenders easily accessible, you can easily calculate whether or not you will win before even joining the fight. It seems the more the player base asks for one thing, the harder the developers fight against it. It seems like an ego thing. It's really sad.
  • MSRDLDMSRDLD Posts: 685 ★★★
    They see that above graphic, see that the winner was the one with higher defender rating and defender diversity, and say

    "Alliance Wars are working as intended"

    SMH.
  • Raganator wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    I think this is a classic example of understanding the words, but not the spirit, of a complaint. This superficially addresses the problem of MD-everywhere, by handing the players a much more nasty alternative. @Kabam Miike basically told us what is going on here when he said that node 24 is working fine, you just have to bring the right attacker. They made AW into you pick the "right" defender and you win, unless the other side picks the "right" attacker and then you lose. Which is kind of a move-counter-move gameplay option but an extremely reductive one, and fundamentally no different from the thorns nodes they got rid of in AW for I can't imagine what reason now.

    And the hilarious part about this...remember about a year ago when Kabam claimed they wanted all champions to be on more of an even playing field? "We want people to be able to rank the people they like and for them to be useful." Well, node 24 is the new thorns with minimal ways to get around it. Very disingenuous IMO.

    I don't want to hit them where it isn't warranted, when there are so many fair reasons to hit them. When Kabam says they want all champions to be useful, I'm pretty sure they mean that the way I would mean that (pretty sure, not absolutely sure, since I don't apparently speak Kabamish natively) which is that they want every champion to have some reasonable use somewhere. That doesn't mean every champion should be equally good everywhere.

    More directly problematic is the fact that these node buffs only do something if they are strong enough to cause players to switch from diverse defenses to blockade defenses, because without defender kills or a reasonable attacker performance metric the only good replacement for a diverse defender is a blockade defender. And blockade defenders are the evil **** children of two problems Kabam claimed to be trying to solve: the over-abundance of OP mystic defenders, and their own stated "attacker surrender" problem. Eliminating defender kills might encourage an attacker to continue to attack, but those attacks will still be completely futile if they bring the "wrong attacker."

    If mystic wars was a problem, I don't see how high regen on 42 is not a problem. The fact that Kabam felt mystic wars was a problem but high regen on 42 is not a problem suggests someone at Kabam believes that the players felt it was boring to be killed by Magik over and over again because of Limbo, but being blockaded at 42 over and over again won't be boring because we won't be sure which high regen defender will be blockading us each time.

    This is a textbook example of datamining gone amok. Kabam perceives the players are bored with getting killed by the same defenders repeatedly so they try to change the metric that measures that, thinking that if we are killed over and over on the same node by eight different defenders instead, that's better even though to the players those eight situations are perceived identically. The data doesn't reflect the nature of the problem.
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    Why is everyone complaining! If I'm willing to spend more than others I deserve to win! Plain and simple! Still beat the boss even though it took me 15 times. *sarcasm*
  • OnlyOneAboveAllOnlyOneAboveAll Posts: 383 ★★
    edited November 2017
    For real though. We won our last war cause we outspent them. Or they decided not to spend. Rescources I mean. Mostly lol
  • months about this problem and it still persists thats very inconsistent and very odd. If it takes you this long to try and fix it "work on it" as you say and yet there is still problems there is a major disturbance in this game. All players are noticing and yet you don't even acknowledge you're at fault where is the consistency? Where is the logic ? What is even going on with kabam recently? Its been highly unprofessional and you know it. When can we the player catch a break. I love this game but this is ridiculous and absurd.
  • NinjaWarrior99NinjaWarrior99 Posts: 317
    chunkyb wrote: »
    This discussion will be as useless as the last, unfortunately. Thousands of replies with good content from players who want a good, fun, challenging, and competitive game were FULLY ignored. The only thing more ridiculous than aw2.0 is the iterative process of adding a few new buffs and constantly saying "we're getting closer". And as long as we're just getting closer but not there yet, we really can't possibly look at war rewards yet. That comes at the end. *wink, wink*

    If you can't see they don't care about your input now, you never will. This is the game parents play with children.. Child wants to go to the park, parent says we need to do this and this and then we'll see if we can go. This is the relationship we're all in now. Being placated to death while you watch your favorite game fall apart for moronic reasons while trolls and sad wannabe mods spam their unknowledgeable takes.

    So save your breath. The plan is already laid out and we're marching towards it. You honestly think it takes 2 weeks of monitoring war and meetings/discussions to come up with the idea of adding a few nodes? Pfft. That's ridiculous even for them.

    If you don't like this ridiculous **** we're having to deal with... Just reply with "defender kills". Forever. Because anything else is wasting your time. Hell, that's wasting time too but at least it'd be fun to see a thread full of those replies and it'd make it a little more difficult for the trolls to respond.

    Oh yeah. You want things to be done differently? Say so with your wallet.

    Defender Kills
  • FAL7ENFAL7EN Posts: 297
    If an alliance feels they need to spend just to beat another alliance then I feel they deserve to win.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,057 ★★★★★
    edited November 2017
    War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.

    Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
    #defender kills
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 23,641 ★★★★★
    War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.

    Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
    #defender kills

    I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.
  • I don’t see the point in repeatedly posting screenshots where teams have lost despite having way more kills because there’s no way of knowing whether they would have lasted the same way if defender kills counted.

    A few wars ago I reached the boss and one of my champs had less than 200 health yet, so I decided to go in, evade at the start and get as many intercept hits in as I could before I lost my champ. I wouldn’t have done this if defender kills counted.

    That’s not to say I agree with kabam’s decision (I don’t), but constantly giving examples of wars that have been lost ‘unfairly’ is pretty irrelevant when the other team is playing within the rules of the new system.
  • WOKWOK Posts: 468 ★★

    I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.

    Ive got an idea how we could possibly datamine without a doubt whether the majority of players are for or against the current war setup and if we believe defender kills caused such a problem to warrant removal from scoring.

    Reintroduce the original AW system alongside the current one. Alliances can choose 1 or the other to participate in. IMO, I dont think it would take that long to get a definitive answer, but lets say we run it for about 2 months(which is similar to the time its taking for the "iterations"). The number of participants and contested wars in each should paint a clear picture on which the player base is more interested in wouldn't you say?
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,057 ★★★★★
    War is about Points. Working together as a team to gain more Points. It's not about who dies less. "You died more than us so we're better than you.", is not the focus of Wars. The metrics used to include Defender Kills. Now they don't. Which means the issue is where the Points are coming from, and including a different element that accommodates interaction. The focus has been on Defender Kills so long that people have lost sight of the fact that the point is to make it as far as you can as a team, and have the best chance at a collective Win. People may take pride in those numbers, but the only thing that matters is the Points. Penalizing Kills and Item Use is not fair or sensible. Not in the extreme that it was. We need to have suggestions outside of Defender Kills. At the end of the day it's about working as a team for Points. Not shaming the opponent for having to Revive.

    Maybe they shouldn't call it war if it's not about not dying lol. It's War! War is about conquest, not points. I feel like there are some things game related where you can be against the overwhelming opinion of the player base and still be right. I was against the complaining about the Boss Rush and said it would take ten minutes and I got mocked on the forum... turns out I was right. I was for the willpower nerf and the end of the perfect block team and got killed by the majority and it turns out that that was for the best. Kabam isn't always wrong. You seem to take the Kabam line wherever it goes, however, and in this case it's caused you to argue a point that really doesn't make sense. The bottom line for war is really about whether it's fun or not. For the overwhelming majority of the player base, this version of war isn't war and isn't fun. We've had enough iterations to see where it's going and we don't want to go there. We like the old version better. We like the first flawed change better then the current version and find that subsequent iterations have made it worse. We don't want a spend to win war, and say what you want, but in the old version we beat the hell out of some big spenders and laughed at their wasted potion spree. Because skill and defender kills. In what way is penalizing kills not sensible in war lmao. Read that sentence you wrote. It's war but dying shouldn't matter? Anyway, war should be for the players and the players have spoken. We want defender kills and we aren't going to stop wanting defender kills, and no iteration that allows alliances to use all their items to beat a better group is going to satisfy us.
    #defender kills

    I am not "taking Kabam's side". I happen to agree with the removal of them, and there are many reasons for that. There is a great deal I'd like to say on the matter, but I'm not interested in adding fuel to the fire. If the only enjoyment people got out of War was watching the opponent die more, that's a problem in and of itself. Since you speak about enjoyment, that's what you're saying. In actuality, it's not about enjoyment. It's about the Wins that Defender Kills gave. All the talk about skill and enjoyment is pretty one-sided to me. War has never been about Defender Kills. Not by design. It became that over time, as new Champs and Nodes allowed for greater Kills. Sorry that you feel I don't make sense, but I'm editing because my plain thoughts would no doubt get people going, and I'm ready to move on in the discussion. They're gone. It's time to move on.

    On every disagreement between the players and Kabam that I have seen you have been on the Kabam side. You are kind of the lone voice here. You are on the Kabam side whether you call it that or not. You talk about being against defensive kills and many problems that they cause but the only reason given by Kabam is a joke. What reasons? It was never about enjoyment watching the other team die per se, and if you like, the harder map is bringing that back. It was about war. Beating another alliance by playing the game better. Alliances that win by out potioning have often posted that they find the win unsatisfying. "Gaining more points as a team" in the current iteration means out potioning or having higher defensive pi. How is that fun. Guess you failed to be done endlessly debating though.
This discussion has been closed.