Alliance Wars Discussion 2.0

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  • linuxlinux Posts: 278
    Hey All,

    Since so much has changed since we first introduced the new Alliance Wars Map and scoring method, most of the information contained within is no longer relevant. We're starting a new discussion thread on Alliance Wars here.

    You can still find the old thread archived here.

    My response is to this comment:

    While these refinements will bring us even closer to where we want the mode to be, we aren’t done yet.
    (from page 118 of the thread)

    I want to be clear: The changes you have made are not moving the AW mode towards where I want it to be. What Kabam wants may be different from what I want, but this is most emphatically not what I want. Do Not Want.

    I've now played T1 nodes (as well as T2-T4, and T12+ in another alliance); my path has been OK. But in our last war, one of the other BGs was stacked with lots of difficult defenders (duplicates & all -- it felt like a return to mystic wars, except that there are some other defenders who are equally nasty on some of the act 5 nodes). This is not a fun map. You've managed to make it alternate between being too easy and too hard -- but it's not hard in the sense of rewarding good play, it's hard in the sense of rewarding the right champs and willingness to spend to push. Defender kills provides a low cost way to record who played better -- and given that exploration was always worth much more than a kill (or a couple) -- it was never a rational decision to stop attacking unless you were sure that you couldn't beat the node ... imo that's exactly when you should make the decision not to attack.

    Neither the diversity nor the blockade strategy is interesting or fun, and those are the two options as things stand.
  • MikeHockMikeHock Posts: 1,720 ★★★★
    edited November 2017
    Why or better question who made this node design it’s already annoying to get RNG on your side against NC but a node giving him full immunity as well really?qaz2k6jhquzu.png

    There was a similar node like that in the last AW Map, it made any hero "immune to negative status effects" and it included mirror image as well. It's a challenge. You can still incinerate, you can still shock. You can bring heroes who minimize evade.
  • MikeHock wrote: »
    Why or better question who made this node design it’s already annoying to get RNG on your side against NC but a node giving him full immunity as well really?qaz2k6jhquzu.png

    There was a similar node like that in the last AW Map, it made any hero "immune to negative status effects" and it included mirror image as well. It's a challenge. You can still incinerate, you can still shock. You can bring heroes who minimize evade.
    It depends on the tier, our team still has the full immunity node.u4whljjjaj67.png
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    MikeHock wrote: »
    Why or better question who made this node design it’s already annoying to get RNG on your side against NC but a node giving him full immunity as well really?qaz2k6jhquzu.png

    There was a similar node like that in the last AW Map, it made any hero "immune to negative status effects" and it included mirror image as well. It's a challenge. You can still incinerate, you can still shock. You can bring heroes who minimize evade.
    It depends on the tier, our team still has the full immunity node.u4whljjjaj67.png

    Tier 3+ is debuff immune
  • Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    If you are fighting a weaker alliance, diversity isn't the way to go. Someone in the thread repeatedly attempted to make the dubious claim that a motivation for removing defender kill points was that 6* defenders would generate too much kills. That assertion was laughable, but ironically in 16.0 that becomes an interesting question to ponder. How many people playing in remotely competitive alliances think that the 16.0 version of war doesn't make this situation massively worse? How many want to start seeing 6* Green Goblins and Magiks on defense with the current map?

    Once a defender gets strong enough and sits on a strong enough node, it doesn't matter if it gets defender kill points or not. It doesn't matter if it gets diversity points or not. It just straight up kills the attackers on the other side and causes them to give up trying.

    I think if you have the right defenders for the right nodes, if you think the other side is significantly weaker, you should ignore diversity and place blockade. For all other nodes and all other champs you should just place for diversity first and rating second. But "the right defenders on the right nodes" is basically 14.0 again, just a less fun version of it.
  • MenkentMenkent Posts: 524 ★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    performance art

    Yes, this is exactly it. If anyone on their end seriously played these changes never would have been made. Or if they'd listened to community feedback at any time over the past months. Or if they'd done a beta test for a major change (except they don't play and thus didn't realize it was a major change). Or et cetera.
  • TomieCzechTomieCzech Posts: 79
    edited November 2017
    @Kabam Miike

    Do you ever read the feedback from the forum?

    You guys at Kabam keep fiddling with the war mode yet the feedback is still the same! What does it mean?

    A - Keep going, this is the right direction.
    B - Hold on a sec, it doesn't seem to work. Let's change the direction.

    Which one do you think it is?? B maybe????

    Or do you only listen just to the one whiner who complained about losing his first champ on the first node, so you removed the defender kills and made it so every team now clears 100% and 1-25 pts in defender rating now decides each war???

    After reading all the feedback you guys should read, I think you are just a bunch of people who need medical attention in regards of your mental health. I don't think any healthy individual would be able to get where you are with such detailed and amazing feedback your player base has been feeding you with.

    Pathetic and sad - especially considering you've been receiving it free of charge. You don't need to pay any smart individual or team to test the game mode for you before you release it to us.
  • Menkent wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    performance art

    Yes, this is exactly it. If anyone on their end seriously played these changes never would have been made. Or if they'd listened to community feedback at any time over the past months. Or if they'd done a beta test for a major change (except they don't play and thus didn't realize it was a major change). Or et cetera.

    MMO developers live in a very strange trap that I sort of understand but not really. This trap goes like this:

    1. Calculations don't always tell the whole truth, so you have to test.

    2. Tests don't always tell the whole truth, so you have to see what the live players think.

    3. Once it is live you can't really make dramatic changes.


    There's a corollary called the feedback paradox.

    1. We don't discuss things not yet announced.

    2. Once it is announced, it's too late to stop it from happening.

  • MenkentMenkent Posts: 524 ★★★
    @TomieCzech he reads it. I got a warning last week for what he perceived as name calling. But the thread isn't apparently here to gather feedback. It's to keep all out whining about what a mess they've made of war in one place so the forum doesn't get cluttered with new threads every day.
  • TomieCzechTomieCzech Posts: 79
    That's just pathetic. I often wonder why do I still bother playing this game, when all I'm getting lately is middle finger from Kabam. I've never experienced anything like this, so blunt and offensive, thinking we won't notice anything while they're #@&$ing us over. Why do you guys bother? Lol
  • FAL7ENFAL7EN Posts: 297
    You’re doing great Kabam team! Keep up the good work, I love the changes!!
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,057 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    If you are fighting a weaker alliance, diversity isn't the way to go. Someone in the thread repeatedly attempted to make the dubious claim that a motivation for removing defender kill points was that 6* defenders would generate too much kills. That assertion was laughable, but ironically in 16.0 that becomes an interesting question to ponder. How many people playing in remotely competitive alliances think that the 16.0 version of war doesn't make this situation massively worse? How many want to start seeing 6* Green Goblins and Magiks on defense with the current map?

    Once a defender gets strong enough and sits on a strong enough node, it doesn't matter if it gets defender kill points or not. It doesn't matter if it gets diversity points or not. It just straight up kills the attackers on the other side and causes them to give up trying.

    I think if you have the right defenders for the right nodes, if you think the other side is significantly weaker, you should ignore diversity and place blockade. For all other nodes and all other champs you should just place for diversity first and rating second. But "the right defenders on the right nodes" is basically 14.0 again, just a less fun version of it.

    @DNA3000 I think your posts are generally fantastic but I don't think you are right on this one. If you drop down for a low AW rating you are fighting on much easier nodes. High alliances that do this are going to 100% the map against weaker opponents on weaker nodes so it wouldn't make sense to try to stop the opponent. You are guaranteed the win with a higher offensive rating and the opponent probably won't push anyway knowing the scoring system gave them an unwinnable match. Plus you can still make the hardest nodes nasty even with diversity when you have that kind of team. We have never jumped. Still slogging it out in tier 1, but I know lots of people who have.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,057 ★★★★★
    The crazy thing is that a lot of alliances have scrapped diversity and are placing best defense as they always did, in which case what was the point of all this? War is so broken right now. The first "iteration" post acknowledged that the players weren't enjoying the new version of war. Later posts indicate that we are getting closer to the goal. That makes no sense as clearly the player base is no happier. I know it's hard to admit you were wrong and scrap what you are doing, but making defender kills your hill to die on makes no sense when it's clear that your paying customers want them. Your War experiment has failed. It's failed in every way in which it is possible to fail. It's a failure. It sucks. No one likes it. Bring back the old war and bring back defender kill. Keep the new map if you like, I don't care.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,057 ★★★★★
    @GroundedWisdom you were out on the topic of defender kills last time we spoke and wouln't even state your "reasons" why you thought they caused problems. I think they know that their current version of war is garbage and they don't want to eat crow and aren't bringing back defender kills for that reason, but I do think they will eventually have to suck it up and do the right thing. In the mean time, you can keep championing your no defender kills without a good alternative stance. #Defender Kills
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 23,642 ★★★★★
    Spamming Defender Kills is not helping anything. I've listed many reasons why they're an issue. This Thread is a continuation of the previous one, and I've discussed it at length. It really doesn't matter what reasons I state because they're not heard regardless. What matters is they are no longer present, and there was reason enough to remove them.
  • AcanthusAcanthus Posts: 447 ★★★
    Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    Kabam already modified the matchmaking, you only play against other shell alliances. Source: past 10 wars
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 23,642 ★★★★★
    Acanthus wrote: »
    Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    Kabam already modified the matchmaking, you only play against other shell alliances. Source: past 10 wars

    That's conspiracy. There's been no mention of altering Matchmaking.
  • The meta of AW is now a total cluster. It's amazing how manage to continually make it worse with each update @Kabam Miike

    Node 24 alone, just LOL
  • AcanthusAcanthus Posts: 447 ★★★
    edited November 2017
    Acanthus wrote: »
    Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    Kabam already modified the matchmaking, you only play against other shell alliances. Source: past 10 wars

    That's conspiracy. There's been no mention of altering Matchmaking.

    But it clearly happened. Ask any shell alliance about their recent wars. We've matched the same 16+ million rated alliance 3 times in 5 wars in tier4
    Our AW history: 14.5 mil, 13 mil, 16 mil("Alliance 1"), 14.5 mil, 16 mil("Alliance 1"), 13 mil, 16 mil("Alliance 1"), 13 mil("Alliance 2"), 16 mil, 13 mil("Alliance 2"). Does this look like like tier 4 to you?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 23,642 ★★★★★
    Acanthus wrote: »
    Acanthus wrote: »
    Lurker wrote: »
    Buffing nodes and trying to make it "hard" to 100% the map will lead to only 1 thing. Shell alliances. It will eventually be cheaper for strong alliances to drop down and beat the weaker alliances with their guaranteed "defender rating win" (without buying the items kabam wants us to buy) causing weaker alliances to spend less on items when they have 0% chance to win. Alliance war will still not be any fun but thank god I have an excuse to rank up 5 of my trash champs!

    Kabam already modified the matchmaking, you only play against other shell alliances. Source: past 10 wars

    That's conspiracy. There's been no mention of altering Matchmaking.

    But it clearly happened. Ask any shell alliance about their recent wars

    First of all, I don't condone it so I'm not interested in conversing with the results of it. Secondly, I'm not subscribing to conspiracy. They are not changing the Matchmaking subversively. It's just conjecture based on results. Perhaps karmic even. If they didn't list a change, it wasn't made.
This discussion has been closed.