I can't believe this thread is still going. Prestige matchmaking is obviously a terrible idea lol
Prestige matchmaking was always a terrible idea. And threads like this will go on and on. Mid skilled Paragons are quitting massively BGs at the moment, out of frustration. Most are doing only the daily objectives. The higher skilled Paragons that will left on next seasons, will find themselves fighting each other at low VT brackets, as happens to mid skilled Paragons now 😂😂😂 The prays are stepping out, and the predators will gradually find themselves sweating from Bronze3. Then a big MCOC YouTuber will finally make a video about the unfair Prestige matchmaking, and Kabam will be pressed to change it, or change VT at all. None of the big YTs does it now, and I suspect that’s mainly because of two reasons: 1. They aren’t personally affected, since most of them are highly skilled, and 2. Even if they see the problem, they need to cater to lower accounts, since those are giving them the most views. That’s why they did videos about sandbagging problem, because it was affecting their main audience, lower/mid level players. But now silence like there is not any problem at all. Yet no one of the big YTs has the guts to do a video for that (apart from AlBundyRules, but his channel is still small to influence situations like this, but anyway hats off to him). I hope any of the “big guys” prove me wrong 🤔
Since you're all about BGs being unfair for a specific group of players atm (which I don't disagree with) let's hear your completely unbiased solution that won't create any other issues for other players lol.
I’ve proposed various solutions, including keeping Prestige matchmaking in first VT tiers and gradually loosened up to Gold tiers. Another solution would be “kick starts” based on previous season placement to avoid the miss matches, but I can understand this is very hard to implement. Others have made proposals too, including making another VT for lower accounts with lesser rewards, which I think will create more reactions than any other solution. I personally believe no ones Paragon intention is to stomp repeatedly UC accounts at VT, but they aren’t going to sit and watch UC accounts placing higher in a competitive mode. This shouldn’t happen and you know it 😉
Those three could potentially work indeed. I guess I was wrong, some of you aren't as delusional as AlBundyRules after all lol.
Oh no I agree completely, smaller accounts shouldn't be getting to GC before the bigger ones. I have no issues with any of the changes you've proposed there and I'm sure most lower players wouldn't either.
Respect to all the people that keep responding to @ItsClobberinTime , but I dont understand where you get the stamina to keep doing so. He is obviously immune to arguments, and only doing his own trolling crusade and spamming up all the post about Battlegrounds. Therefore I stopped reading them. Just checked in here to see if there was an interesting discussion going on, but no. Same same. Only @ItsClobberinTime spamming as usual.
Everyone likes to hide behind the grey area that the system allows it and it isn't explicitly prohibited, but wrong is wrong. I learned that in primary school.
Is that the same primary school where you learned the definition of fair that you posted for us? Cause that didn't work out very well for you.
I know what fair is. Expecting to take out the weakest Players in Bronze 3 because it's too much to take people on in your own Title range ain't it.
You keep saying stuff like this but there are certainly a lot of us that have nothing to gain from a matchmaking overhaul but still desperately want one bc it's obvious to us how ridiculous the current system is. I just looked at my last 25 matches and I have a 92% win rate still currently with one of those two losses being a disconnect. Since the mode went live I've had anywhere from a 85-95% win rate through VT, I'm not struggling in the slightest.
You keep talking about not wanting favoritism with matching but what you actually seem to want is favoritism for one group but not the other. Random matching isn't favoritism for anyone regardless of whether it does give an advantage. That advantage is created by having multiple groups of people in the same competition. This nonsense some of you keep spouting about VT "being for everyone and the competition is GC" is just that, nonsense. The whole mode is for everyone to play but that doesn't mean everyone, or actually anyone, is guaranteed a certain amount of progress within it bc it is in its entirety a competitive mode. You just want to remove the competition from it to favor one group.
I'm all for separating the groups completely and having different reward brackets (good luck selling worse rewards to those you're feigning to be an advocate for), or the much easier sell of just staggering the starting position of different groups and then free for all matching.
I can't believe this thread is still going. Prestige matchmaking is obviously a terrible idea lol
Prestige matchmaking was always a terrible idea. And threads like this will go on and on. Mid skilled Paragons are quitting massively BGs at the moment, out of frustration. Most are doing only the daily objectives. The higher skilled Paragons that will left on next seasons, will find themselves fighting each other at low VT brackets, as happens to mid skilled Paragons now 😂😂😂 The prays are stepping out, and the predators will gradually find themselves sweating from Bronze3. Then a big MCOC YouTuber will finally make a video about the unfair Prestige matchmaking, and Kabam will be pressed to change it, or change VT at all. None of the big YTs does it now, and I suspect that’s mainly because of two reasons: 1. They aren’t personally affected, since most of them are highly skilled, and 2. Even if they see the problem, they need to cater to lower accounts, since those are giving them the most views. That’s why they did videos about sandbagging problem, because it was affecting their main audience, lower/mid level players. But now silence like there is not any problem at all. Yet no one of the big YTs has the guts to do a video for that (apart from AlBundyRules, but his channel is still small to influence situations like this, but anyway hats off to him). I hope any of the “big guys” prove me wrong 🤔
Since you're all about BGs being unfair for a specific group of players atm (which I don't disagree with) let's hear your completely unbiased solution that won't create any other issues for other players lol.
Separate brackets for roster strengths.
I suggested that one on another thread myself too so I agree with that one. I was asking @Greekhit though, he just complains and complains but doesn't really suggest any viable solutions.
TO be fair, that is the company's job to do. You think the company cares what we say here? when the complaints hit a threshold, they wil ldo something about it.
Everyone likes to hide behind the grey area that the system allows it and it isn't explicitly prohibited, but wrong is wrong. I learned that in primary school.
Is that the same primary school where you learned the definition of fair that you posted for us? Cause that didn't work out very well for you.
I know what fair is. Expecting to take out the weakest Players in Bronze 3 because it's too much to take people on in your own Title range ain't it.
You keep saying stuff like this but there are certainly a lot of us that have nothing to gain from a matchmaking overhaul but still desperately want one bc it's obvious to us how ridiculous the current system is. I just looked at my last 25 matches and I have a 92% win rate still currently with one of those two losses being a disconnect. Since the mode went live I've had anywhere from a 85-95% win rate through VT, I'm not struggling in the slightest.
You keep talking about not wanting favoritism with matching but what you actually seem to want is favoritism for one group but not the other. Random matching isn't favoritism for anyone regardless of whether it does give an advantage. That advantage is created by having multiple groups of people in the same competition. This nonsense some of you keep spouting about VT "being for everyone and the competition is GC" is just that, nonsense. The whole mode is for everyone to play but that doesn't mean everyone, or actually anyone, is guaranteed a certain amount of progress within it bc it is in its entirety a competitive mode. You just want to remove the competition from it to favor one group.
I'm all for separating the groups completely and having different reward brackets (good luck selling worse rewards to those you're feigning to be an advocate for), or the much easier sell of just staggering the starting position of different groups and then free for all matching.
Ditto. I may not have the strongest roster (top accounts) but have a winrate of 90%+ But I've watched alliance mates struggle to get through. Which I understand. being Paragon isnt about "skill". it is just natural progression. There is no "skill" gate. with enough patience, yo ucan get through content and rank up champs. But having to face stiff opposition, incredibly tough rosters over and over, and failing to get the string of wins required to progress is incredibly frustating. Personally, i dont have my marathon sessions anymore since every match is quite intense. While i dont have a problem with that, this is an exact throwback to the prestige war matchmaking. Different brackets for same rewards have NO PLACE in competition. Everyone faces the same opposition. thats how it should be.
I love all this chat but let's face it, Kabam will not change anything soon. They gain money over frustration, it's all over the game. You lose? use your victory shield then, they're here for that reason. You don't have VC? well buy some with your trophies, wait, you can buy only one per week but as many as you want with units, here is the link to the unit store. As long as player will play BG, and I'm one of those "unlucky" Paragon facing other stacked Paragon accounts, then nothing will change.
I think it's more likely people will simply quit playing bg. I have.
The rewards aren't close to being worth what I'd need to spend to get anywhere.
Also I think we've confirmed in another thread that matchmaking is likely based on total hero rating which I'd say stacks up with the matches I get.
At 2.9m I'm getting matched with people as low as 2.3 and as high as 4.2 so it's a pretty wide range
It's quickly becoming a time vs rewards cost-benefit analysis with a heap of frustration thrown on top.
I'm not opposed to that. I just don't want the newest Players in the competition being trampled in the first few Brackets. That's my concern. There's too much of a gap for it to even be considered fair, regardless of the status quo. People are having issues as a Paragon coming up against more advanced Paragons and justifying letting them match with UC Players in the same breath. If someone fights their way up and punches to their own ceiling, that's one thing. Making them stonewall at the beginning is another. I'd rather them limit access to BGs than see that happen for people. They'd get upset for a time, and they'd get over it. Better that than laughing at their struggles because they're fuel for others in Bronze 3
Why do the newest players deserve to advance easier than the longest and best players in the game? Why should they think that they deserve to compete in a mode that EVERYONE is in the same pool and fighting for the same rewards?
Respect to all the people that keep responding to @ItsClobberinTime , but I dont understand where you get the stamina to keep doing so. He is obviously immune to arguments, and only doing his own trolling crusade and spamming up all the post about Battlegrounds. Therefore I stopped reading them. Just checked in here to see if there was an interesting discussion going on, but no. Same same. Only @ItsClobberinTime spamming as usual.
Absolutely agree, zero point in responding to him, it's just like when he was spamming up nonstop on the sandbagging posts a while back.
It's impossible to take him serious when he so quickly gets into insults and name calling with anyone who disagrees with him. Not sure why someone would think hurling insults and names at those who disagree with them would help their argument.
Also, contrary to popular belief, I have no desire to beat up on Cavs and UCs. I want to be facing Paragon matches, at the correct ladder rung for my roster and skill level. In literally every other game/sport/contest/race/whatever that starts everyone at the same place, the best participants quickly pace themselves ahead of the rest and end up fighting each other by the mid/end of it.
Can you imagine running a marathon where the amateurs only had to run 13 miles and the pros had to do the full 26? Yeah, some of the best pros would end up beating the amateurs, but not all of them would.
All was said here but nothing will be changed unless some big youtube will start talking about. Kabam does not care. No reaction for biggest thread on forum. Victory shields are implemented for a reason. In time more people start complaining bcos they will upgrade their prestige accidently and they will be punished for progression in game (sic!). Maybe after that something will be changed. Untill that time all paragons matches in VT regardless of division will be as it should be in diamond and vibranium, all TB matches will be as it should be in platinium and gold and all cavs matches will be as in silver and bronze.
I'm not opposed to that. I just don't want the newest Players in the competition being trampled in the first few Brackets. That's my concern. There's too much of a gap for it to even be considered fair, regardless of the status quo. People are having issues as a Paragon coming up against more advanced Paragons and justifying letting them match with UC Players in the same breath. If someone fights their way up and punches to their own ceiling, that's one thing. Making them stonewall at the beginning is another. I'd rather them limit access to BGs than see that happen for people. They'd get upset for a time, and they'd get over it. Better that than laughing at their struggles because they're fuel for others in Bronze 3
Why do the newest players deserve to advance easier than the longest and best players in the game? Why should they think that they deserve to compete in a mode that EVERYONE is in the same pool and fighting for the same rewards?
Advance faster. The first 2 or 3 Brackets is what I'm talking about and your argument is they're advancing faster because they would have a fair chance at starting out? No offense, but that's a sad argument. They're advancing period. Considering they're not going to get anywhere after that, that's not advancing faster than anyone. That's having SOME reason to play. I find it completely selfish that people are butthut about even Matches when they can't even stand to fight their own. That's neither here nor there. The fact that people who are advancing in the competition are crying about some new Players getting a few Shards is pathetic.
That's not what it's about. It's about not letting people who vastly overpower them trample them at the gate. If you're offended by that, then that's sad.
I need a break from this conversation because I'm losing composure. There's competitiveness, and then there's greed. There should absolutely be some kind of mitigating factor starting out. Someone who is at the lowest end has no business coming up against the highest at the start of the competition. You stop and compare the difference, and if you can use Rewards to justify that, you're not using reason in my opinion. That's how I feel.
I need a break from this conversation because I'm losing composure. There's competitiveness, and then there's greed. There should absolutely be some kind of mitigating factor starting out. Someone who is at the lowest end has no business coming up against the highest at the start of the competition. You stop and compare the difference, and if you can use Rewards to justify that, you're not using reason in my opinion. That's how I feel.
I stopped reading after your first sentence here (about taking break from conversation). All I can say is that after your over a hundred responses on multiple threads on this BG matchmaking topic, is THANK YOU!
Respect to all the people that keep responding to @ItsClobberinTime , but I dont understand where you get the stamina to keep doing so. He is obviously immune to arguments, and only doing his own trolling crusade and spamming up all the post about Battlegrounds. Therefore I stopped reading them. Just checked in here to see if there was an interesting discussion going on, but no. Same same. Only @ItsClobberinTime spamming as usual.
The fact that this is coming from someone who kept spamming threads back then because he needed sandbagging to compensate for his lack of skill as stated on his "Sandbagging in BGs should be okay" post is absolutely hilarious lmao. And no, I'm not trolling anyone here, I'm simply suggesting solutions to the problem (which other people have suggested as well). Keep telling yourself that though💀
I can't believe this thread is still going. Prestige matchmaking is obviously a terrible idea lol
Prestige matchmaking was always a terrible idea. And threads like this will go on and on. Mid skilled Paragons are quitting massively BGs at the moment, out of frustration. Most are doing only the daily objectives. The higher skilled Paragons that will left on next seasons, will find themselves fighting each other at low VT brackets, as happens to mid skilled Paragons now 😂😂😂 The prays are stepping out, and the predators will gradually find themselves sweating from Bronze3. Then a big MCOC YouTuber will finally make a video about the unfair Prestige matchmaking, and Kabam will be pressed to change it, or change VT at all. None of the big YTs does it now, and I suspect that’s mainly because of two reasons: 1. They aren’t personally affected, since most of them are highly skilled, and 2. Even if they see the problem, they need to cater to lower accounts, since those are giving them the most views. That’s why they did videos about sandbagging problem, because it was affecting their main audience, lower/mid level players. But now silence like there is not any problem at all. Yet no one of the big YTs has the guts to do a video for that (apart from AlBundyRules, but his channel is still small to influence situations like this, but anyway hats off to him). I hope any of the “big guys” prove me wrong 🤔
Since you're all about BGs being unfair for a specific group of players atm (which I don't disagree with) let's hear your completely unbiased solution that won't create any other issues for other players lol.
Separate brackets for roster strengths.
I suggested that one on another thread myself too so I agree with that one. I was asking @Greekhit though, he just complains and complains but doesn't really suggest any viable solutions.
TO be fair, that is the company's job to do. You think the company cares what we say here? when the complaints hit a threshold, they wil ldo something about it.
Never said it was our job. Maybe, maybe not, who knows. Costs nothing to suggest a solution if you already had one in mind though.
Respect to all the people that keep responding to @ItsClobberinTime , but I dont understand where you get the stamina to keep doing so. He is obviously immune to arguments, and only doing his own trolling crusade and spamming up all the post about Battlegrounds. Therefore I stopped reading them. Just checked in here to see if there was an interesting discussion going on, but no. Same same. Only @ItsClobberinTime spamming as usual.
Absolutely agree, zero point in responding to him, it's just like when he was spamming up nonstop on the sandbagging posts a while back.
It's impossible to take him serious when he so quickly gets into insults and name calling with anyone who disagrees with him. Not sure why someone would think hurling insults and names at those who disagree with them would help their argument.
I haven't really called you any names or insulted you in a very long time. You're just mad because every single time you have an argument with me you run out of counter arguments, and then you just start malding. You start making passive aggressive remarks but I can't call you any names cause then I'm in the wrong right? Lmao the joke writes itself.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
I'm not opposed to that. I just don't want the newest Players in the competition being trampled in the first few Brackets. That's my concern. There's too much of a gap for it to even be considered fair, regardless of the status quo. People are having issues as a Paragon coming up against more advanced Paragons and justifying letting them match with UC Players in the same breath. If someone fights their way up and punches to their own ceiling, that's one thing. Making them stonewall at the beginning is another. I'd rather them limit access to BGs than see that happen for people. They'd get upset for a time, and they'd get over it. Better that than laughing at their struggles because they're fuel for others in Bronze 3
Why do the newest players deserve to advance easier than the longest and best players in the game? Why should they think that they deserve to compete in a mode that EVERYONE is in the same pool and fighting for the same rewards?
Advance faster. The first 2 or 3 Brackets is what I'm talking about and your argument is they're advancing faster because they would have a fair chance at starting out? No offense, but that's a sad argument. They're advancing period. Considering they're not going to get anywhere after that, that's not advancing faster than anyone. That's having SOME reason to play. I find it completely selfish that people are butthut about even Matches when they can't even stand to fight their own. That's neither here nor there. The fact that people who are advancing in the competition are crying about some new Players getting a few Shards is pathetic.
That's not what it's about. It's about not letting people who vastly overpower them trample them at the gate. If you're offended by that, then that's sad.
I'm going to start out giving you credit where it's due. Despite a significant amount of floundering on how match making could be resolved, you have at least stayed consistent in one fundamental area, which is you want larger accounts beating up on smaller accounts.
Let's start with that...
I know you've said the sports analogies don't really hit the mark for you, but they are the most applicable analogy to be made.
There's is no sporting event, in the world, where people are handicapped when competing for the same rewards.
Some have suggested "kick starting" folks. I wouldn't personally advocate for that, but there is an associative logic to it though in NASCAR and Indy racing. Someone starts in first and someone starts last. That's determined before every race (not every season) through a qualifying session. Come race day though, everyone still competes against everyone else, and odds are, the faster car is gonna win. What that means though, is if I qualify poorly and and start near the bottom, you're still gonna face me. It doesn't solve your issue.
Major sport analogies, like football, baseball, and basketball have been talked to death, so I'm going to skip them.
The new analogy I'm going to use here is boxing. In that, everyone fights in a weight class. No questions, end of story. Sure everyone gets a prize, but the notable prize is that heavyweight champ.
Whether you can admit it or not, this is the system you want. Rewards would have to be adjusted (decreased) for the lower weight classes, but you get the piece of mind of knowing you're not gonna be knocked out repeatedly by a guy that outweighs you by 80lbs. It will inevitably lead to complaints from those lower weight classes, and the solution to that is to let people decide on their own what weight class they want to fight in (but you can't go below your class). So now if a light weight fighter wants a chance at heavy weight rewards, he can have it, but he has to know he's probably fighting all heavy weights. Conversely, a heavy weight cannon decide to fight in a light weight class. Each individual makes that choice at the start of the season...no competing in multiple classes, and no going back until the start of the next season.
Essentially, now each summoner decides the rewards they want to compete for. They can try heavyweight, likely getting much less from a better pot, or they can stay in their weight class, likely getting more of a worse pot.
That's the end of my analogies, but now I'm going to reiterate a few key components that you've continued to overlook.
1) I am not advocating for beating up lower accounts. I am advocating for FAIR competition, which means if we're competing for the same rewards, we're subject to fighting one another. No one gets an easier path than others, not even for a short period of time. I think most of the top accounts agree here....they want fairness, not punching bags.
2) This is all about rewards. I say that because you've gone on record stating you don't care. I struggle to believe that you honestly mean that, but if you do, I can guarantee that you're alone in that view point. This is absolutely all about rewards, because they are currently some of the best in the game, and that's WHY we play the game...get rewards, get better. No one is playing with 2*r1 champs for years on end simply because they like it.
3) This solution completely addresses sandbagging. That needs to be pointed out, cause you continue to bring up that sandbagging is how we got here. You're not wrong, but it's a dead topic, because it's been resolved, albeit in a poor design, which is what we're talking about fixing now.
So if you've taken the time to read this, please tell me where I'm wrong that "weight classes" are the best way to fundamentally fix BGs.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Better Rewards in Bronze and Silver? That's what we're talking about. Giving people a chance to start out without getting unreasonably overpowered.
I'm not opposed to that. I just don't want the newest Players in the competition being trampled in the first few Brackets. That's my concern. There's too much of a gap for it to even be considered fair, regardless of the status quo. People are having issues as a Paragon coming up against more advanced Paragons and justifying letting them match with UC Players in the same breath. If someone fights their way up and punches to their own ceiling, that's one thing. Making them stonewall at the beginning is another. I'd rather them limit access to BGs than see that happen for people. They'd get upset for a time, and they'd get over it. Better that than laughing at their struggles because they're fuel for others in Bronze 3
Why do the newest players deserve to advance easier than the longest and best players in the game? Why should they think that they deserve to compete in a mode that EVERYONE is in the same pool and fighting for the same rewards?
Advance faster. The first 2 or 3 Brackets is what I'm talking about and your argument is they're advancing faster because they would have a fair chance at starting out? No offense, but that's a sad argument. They're advancing period. Considering they're not going to get anywhere after that, that's not advancing faster than anyone. That's having SOME reason to play. I find it completely selfish that people are butthut about even Matches when they can't even stand to fight their own. That's neither here nor there. The fact that people who are advancing in the competition are crying about some new Players getting a few Shards is pathetic.
That's not what it's about. It's about not letting people who vastly overpower them trample them at the gate. If you're offended by that, then that's sad.
I'm going to start out giving you credit where it's due. Despite a significant amount of floundering on how match making could be resolved, you have at least stayed consistent in one fundamental area, which is you want larger accounts beating up on smaller accounts.
Let's start with that...
I know you've said the sports analogies don't really hit the mark for you, but they are the most applicable analogy to be made.
There's is no sporting event, in the world, where people are handicapped when competing for the same rewards.
Some have suggested "kick starting" folks. I wouldn't personally advocate for that, but there is an associative logic to it though in NASCAR and Indy racing. Someone starts in first and someone starts last. That's determined before every race (not every season) through a qualifying session. Come race day though, everyone still competes against everyone else, and odds are, the faster car is gonna win. What that means though, is if I qualify poorly and and start near the bottom, you're still gonna face me. It doesn't solve your issue.
Major sport analogies, like football, baseball, and basketball have been talked to death, so I'm going to skip them.
The new analogy I'm going to use here is boxing. In that, everyone fights in a weight class. No questions, end of story. Sure everyone gets a prize, but the notable prize is that heavyweight champ.
Whether you can admit it or not, this is the system you want. Rewards would have to be adjusted (decreased) for the lower weight classes, but you get the piece of mind of knowing you're not gonna be knocked out repeatedly by a guy that outweighs you by 80lbs. It will inevitably lead to complaints from those lower weight classes, and the solution to that is to let people decide on their own what weight class they want to fight in (but you can't go below your class). So now if a light weight fighter wants a chance at heavy weight rewards, he can have it, but he has to know he's probably fighting all heavy weights. Conversely, a heavy weight cannon decide to fight in a light weight class. Each individual makes that choice at the start of the season...no competing in multiple classes, and no going back until the start of the next season.
Essentially, now each summoner decides the rewards they want to compete for. They can try heavyweight, likely getting much less from a better pot, or they can stay in their weight class, likely getting more of a worse pot.
That's the end of my analogies, but now I'm going to reiterate a few key components that you've continued to overlook.
1) I am not advocating for beating up lower accounts. I am advocating for FAIR competition, which means if we're competing for the same rewards, we're subject to fighting one another. No one gets an easier path than others, not even for a short period of time. I think most of the top accounts agree here....they want fairness, not punching bags.
2) This is all about rewards. I say that because you've gone on record stating you don't care. I struggle to believe that you honestly mean that, but if you do, I can guarantee that you're alone in that view point. This is absolutely all about rewards, because they are currently some of the best in the game, and that's WHY we play the game...get rewards, get better. No one is playing with 2*r1 champs for years on end simply because they like it.
3) This solution completely addresses sandbagging. That needs to be pointed out, cause you continue to bring up that sandbagging is how we got here. You're not wrong, but it's a dead topic, because it's been resolved, albeit in a poor design, which is what we're talking about fixing now.
So if you've taken the time to read this, please tell me where I'm wrong that "weight classes" are the best way to fundamentally fix BGs.
Right. So give people the ability to pummel lower Accounts, by choice? That only serves whoever feels like taking it easy at the expense of others.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Better Rewards in Bronze and Silver? That's what we're talking about. Giving people a chance to start out without getting unreasonably overpowered.
Well you withdrawing from this conversation lasted almost 2 hours.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Better Rewards in Bronze and Silver? That's what we're talking about. Giving people a chance to start out without getting unreasonably overpowered.
Well you withdrawing from this conversation lasted almost 2 hours.
Everyone likes to hide behind the grey area that the system allows it and it isn't explicitly prohibited, but wrong is wrong. I learned that in primary school.
Is that the same primary school where you learned the definition of fair that you posted for us? Cause that didn't work out very well for you.
I know what fair is. Expecting to take out the weakest Players in Bronze 3 because it's too much to take people on in your own Title range ain't it.
You keep saying stuff like this but there are certainly a lot of us that have nothing to gain from a matchmaking overhaul but still desperately want one bc it's obvious to us how ridiculous the current system is. I just looked at my last 25 matches and I have a 92% win rate still currently with one of those two losses being a disconnect. Since the mode went live I've had anywhere from a 85-95% win rate through VT, I'm not struggling in the slightest.
You keep talking about not wanting favoritism with matching but what you actually seem to want is favoritism for one group but not the other. Random matching isn't favoritism for anyone regardless of whether it does give an advantage. That advantage is created by having multiple groups of people in the same competition. This nonsense some of you keep spouting about VT "being for everyone and the competition is GC" is just that, nonsense. The whole mode is for everyone to play but that doesn't mean everyone, or actually anyone, is guaranteed a certain amount of progress within it bc it is in its entirety a competitive mode. You just want to remove the competition from it to favor one group.
I'm all for separating the groups completely and having different reward brackets (good luck selling worse rewards to those you're feigning to be an advocate for), or the much easier sell of just staggering the starting position of different groups and then free for all matching.
Ditto. I may not have the strongest roster (top accounts) but have a winrate of 90%+ But I've watched alliance mates struggle to get through. Which I understand. being Paragon isnt about "skill". it is just natural progression. There is no "skill" gate. with enough patience, yo ucan get through content and rank up champs. But having to face stiff opposition, incredibly tough rosters over and over, and failing to get the string of wins required to progress is incredibly frustating. Personally, i dont have my marathon sessions anymore since every match is quite intense. While i dont have a problem with that, this is an exact throwback to the prestige war matchmaking. Different brackets for same rewards have NO PLACE in competition. Everyone faces the same opposition. thats how it should be.
My complete though process and situation in one comment. Rip my ally mates with top prestiges.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Better Rewards in Bronze and Silver? That's what we're talking about. Giving people a chance to start out without getting unreasonably overpowered.
That is what you and some others are talking about but is not what the person I responded to was talking about. Based on his comment, was pretty clear he doesn't think he should have to go against stronger rosters in any tier (to include in GC from how I read his post).
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
In all those examples, they also don't go for the same rewards which is the issue many of us have. Lower accounts are able to get all victory track rewards and even GC rank rewards without having to face any of the stronger accounts that in many cases are getting worse rewards because of far harder matches.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Better Rewards in Bronze and Silver? That's what we're talking about. Giving people a chance to start out without getting unreasonably overpowered.
That is what you and some others are talking about but is not what the person I responded to was talking about. Based on his comment, was pretty clear he doesn't think he should have to go against stronger rosters in any tier (to include in GC from how I read his post).
Fair. I don't agree with that. I think there needs to be a point where ELO takes over. I just think there should be a reasonable start.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
Agree 100%. But each one of your examples is a scenario where the prizes get more valuable as you go up the rungs of each of those sports/leagues. Pee Wee football players don’t get Super Bowl rings or the Lombardi trophy any more than Little Leaguers win the World Series. That’s the distinction many of the reasonable people here are trying to make.
Agree 100%. But each one of your examples is a scenario where the prizes get more valuable as you go up the rungs of each of those sports/leagues. Pee Wee football players don’t get Super Bowl rings or the Lombardi trophy any more than Little Leaguers win the World Series. That’s the distinction many of the reasonable people here are trying to make.
Dr. Zola
There seem to constantly be people jumping in and making strawman arguments that one sides 'just wants Paragon vs Uncollected', while the other side 'only wants Uncollected getting better rewards than Paragons'. It is more nuanced than that, as your analogy shows.
Taking the analogy further, the current matchmaking structure essentially has Little League/High School/Major League baseball playing in their respective leagues, but a Little League win is treated equally as a Major League win. All these leagues then enter the same Playoffs to win the same World Series. A 16-0 Little League team could win the World Series while a 14-2 Major League Team is left behind in the Divisional round.
Agree 100%. But each one of your examples is a scenario where the prizes get more valuable as you go up the rungs of each of those sports/leagues. Pee Wee football players don’t get Super Bowl rings or the Lombardi trophy any more than Little Leaguers win the World Series. That’s the distinction many of the reasonable people here are trying to make.
Dr. Zola
There seem to constantly be people jumping in and making strawman arguments that one sides 'just wants Paragon vs Uncollected', while the other side 'only wants Uncollected getting better rewards than Paragons'. It is more nuanced than that, as your analogy shows.
Taking the analogy further, the current matchmaking structure essentially has Little League/High School/Major League baseball playing in their respective leagues, but a Little League win is treated equally as a Major League win. All these leagues then enter the same Playoffs to win the same World Series. A 16-0 Little League team could win the World Series while a 14-2 Major League Team is left behind in the Divisional round.
Completely lost me on this analogy. But first, you completely left out a major part of the chain in baseball leagues which includes A, AA, AAA. These minor leagues are where people start off after high school or college while trying to hit the majors.
They compete for far lower rewards than those in a major league team. Those in little league and high school and even college are competing for no real individual rewards at all other than a team achievement in that individual grouping based on the competition they are going against.
In every single competitive sport in the world that has legitimate fan bases there are rules to make thing’s competitive and hence somewhat fair. We don’t have heavyweight male champions fighting bantamweight female fighters. We don’t have little league teams going against major league teams. We don’t have junior varsity football teams going against nfl teams. All of you guys with whale accounts defending your right to have easy fights against low level guys should be ashamed and have a little more dignity than that. Any defending of the way the matchups are is ludicrous. Anyone with a brain can see it’s lopsided. Thats the facts and any further argument is flat out lying to justify your easy wins. BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
Would the heavyweight champion and the bantamweight fighter fight for the same title? No, your analogies make absolutely no sense. If anything, you just gave perfect examples of why nobody can have fair matches 100% of the time, we're competing for the exact same rewards. For something like that to work we would need different tiers for each player based on progression and adjust rewards accordingly for each tier. That way UC only face UC, Cav only Cav, TB only TB and Paragon only Paragon, the higher the progression the better the rewards. This of course is something that's extremely unlikely to happen because they would have to rework the entire VT system (and GC as well unless they just straight up make GC restricted for anyone that isn't TB or Paragon)
Comments
Oh no I agree completely, smaller accounts shouldn't be getting to GC before the bigger ones. I have no issues with any of the changes you've proposed there and I'm sure most lower players wouldn't either.
You keep talking about not wanting favoritism with matching but what you actually seem to want is favoritism for one group but not the other. Random matching isn't favoritism for anyone regardless of whether it does give an advantage. That advantage is created by having multiple groups of people in the same competition. This nonsense some of you keep spouting about VT "being for everyone and the competition is GC" is just that, nonsense. The whole mode is for everyone to play but that doesn't mean everyone, or actually anyone, is guaranteed a certain amount of progress within it bc it is in its entirety a competitive mode. You just want to remove the competition from it to favor one group.
I'm all for separating the groups completely and having different reward brackets (good luck selling worse rewards to those you're feigning to be an advocate for), or the much easier sell of just staggering the starting position of different groups and then free for all matching.
But I've watched alliance mates struggle to get through. Which I understand.
being Paragon isnt about "skill". it is just natural progression. There is no "skill" gate. with enough patience, yo ucan get through content and rank up champs.
But having to face stiff opposition, incredibly tough rosters over and over, and failing to get the string of wins required to progress is incredibly frustating. Personally, i dont have my marathon sessions anymore since every match is quite intense.
While i dont have a problem with that, this is an exact throwback to the prestige war matchmaking. Different brackets for same rewards have NO PLACE in competition. Everyone faces the same opposition. thats how it should be.
It's impossible to take him serious when he so quickly gets into insults and name calling with anyone who disagrees with him. Not sure why someone would think hurling insults and names at those who disagree with them would help their argument.
Can you imagine running a marathon where the amateurs only had to run 13 miles and the pros had to do the full 26? Yeah, some of the best pros would end up beating the amateurs, but not all of them would.
In time more people start complaining bcos they will upgrade their prestige accidently and they will be punished for progression in game (sic!). Maybe after that something will be changed.
Untill that time all paragons matches in VT regardless of division will be as it should be in diamond and vibranium, all TB matches will be as it should be in platinium and gold and all cavs matches will be as in silver and bronze.
They're advancing period. Considering they're not going to get anywhere after that, that's not advancing faster than anyone. That's having SOME reason to play. I find it completely selfish that people are butthut about even Matches when they can't even stand to fight their own. That's neither here nor there. The fact that people who are advancing in the competition are crying about some new Players getting a few Shards is pathetic.
That's not what it's about. It's about not letting people who vastly overpower them trample them at the gate. If you're offended by that, then that's sad.
And no, I'm not trolling anyone here, I'm simply suggesting solutions to the problem (which other people have suggested as well). Keep telling yourself that though💀
Maybe, maybe not, who knows. Costs nothing to suggest a solution if you already had one in mind though.
You start making passive aggressive remarks but I can't call you any names cause then I'm in the wrong right? Lmao the joke writes itself.
BTW i win most of my fights so not sour grapes. Just facts
Let's start with that...
I know you've said the sports analogies don't really hit the mark for you, but they are the most applicable analogy to be made.
There's is no sporting event, in the world, where people are handicapped when competing for the same rewards.
Some have suggested "kick starting" folks. I wouldn't personally advocate for that, but there is an associative logic to it though in NASCAR and Indy racing. Someone starts in first and someone starts last. That's determined before every race (not every season) through a qualifying session. Come race day though, everyone still competes against everyone else, and odds are, the faster car is gonna win. What that means though, is if I qualify poorly and and start near the bottom, you're still gonna face me. It doesn't solve your issue.
Major sport analogies, like football, baseball, and basketball have been talked to death, so I'm going to skip them.
The new analogy I'm going to use here is boxing. In that, everyone fights in a weight class. No questions, end of story. Sure everyone gets a prize, but the notable prize is that heavyweight champ.
Whether you can admit it or not, this is the system you want. Rewards would have to be adjusted (decreased) for the lower weight classes, but you get the piece of mind of knowing you're not gonna be knocked out repeatedly by a guy that outweighs you by 80lbs. It will inevitably lead to complaints from those lower weight classes, and the solution to that is to let people decide on their own what weight class they want to fight in (but you can't go below your class). So now if a light weight fighter wants a chance at heavy weight rewards, he can have it, but he has to know he's probably fighting all heavy weights. Conversely, a heavy weight cannon decide to fight in a light weight class. Each individual makes that choice at the start of the season...no competing in multiple classes, and no going back until the start of the next season.
Essentially, now each summoner decides the rewards they want to compete for. They can try heavyweight, likely getting much less from a better pot, or they can stay in their weight class, likely getting more of a worse pot.
That's the end of my analogies, but now I'm going to reiterate a few key components that you've continued to overlook.
1) I am not advocating for beating up lower accounts. I am advocating for FAIR competition, which means if we're competing for the same rewards, we're subject to fighting one another. No one gets an easier path than others, not even for a short period of time. I think most of the top accounts agree here....they want fairness, not punching bags.
2) This is all about rewards. I say that because you've gone on record stating you don't care. I struggle to believe that you honestly mean that, but if you do, I can guarantee that you're alone in that view point. This is absolutely all about rewards, because they are currently some of the best in the game, and that's WHY we play the game...get rewards, get better. No one is playing with 2*r1 champs for years on end simply because they like it.
3) This solution completely addresses sandbagging. That needs to be pointed out, cause you continue to bring up that sandbagging is how we got here. You're not wrong, but it's a dead topic, because it's been resolved, albeit in a poor design, which is what we're talking about fixing now.
So if you've taken the time to read this, please tell me where I'm wrong that "weight classes" are the best way to fundamentally fix BGs.
The little league team doesn't face professional major league teams, your right, but they also don't advance to the playoffs and compete for the world series title after facing only little league teams, which is what is currently happening in BG matchmaking.
I don't think any of us larger accounts are saying we want to face the lower accounts. We are saying they shouldn't have a streamline easy path to getting the same or better rewards than stronger accounts who they don't have to face.
Rip my ally mates with top prestiges.
Dr. Zola
Taking the analogy further, the current matchmaking structure essentially has Little League/High School/Major League baseball playing in their respective leagues, but a Little League win is treated equally as a Major League win. All these leagues then enter the same Playoffs to win the same World Series. A 16-0 Little League team could win the World Series while a 14-2 Major League Team is left behind in the Divisional round.
They compete for far lower rewards than those in a major league team. Those in little league and high school and even college are competing for no real individual rewards at all other than a team achievement in that individual grouping based on the competition they are going against.
If anything, you just gave perfect examples of why nobody can have fair matches 100% of the time, we're competing for the exact same rewards.
For something like that to work we would need different tiers for each player based on progression and adjust rewards accordingly for each tier. That way UC only face UC, Cav only Cav, TB only TB and Paragon only Paragon, the higher the progression the better the rewards. This of course is something that's extremely unlikely to happen because they would have to rework the entire VT system (and GC as well unless they just straight up make GC restricted for anyone that isn't TB or Paragon)