Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

GroundedWisdom

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Hate to burst your bubble and I will. I have experience on both sides. I also have experience in other games where this exact same tactic that is being done by kabam was pulled on nerfing farm runs for stuff for high end farm runs. Runs that you can’t even phantom. Rubs that take 8-12+ hours to compete. And you know what happened when that company pulled what kabam is? They went out of business within a year. Didn’t even take a year. Was 3 months and the game died. So yea. I actually do know what I am talking about unlike you

If you have experience on both sides, then you will understand the difference between player ultimatums and design necessity. One most certainly comes before the other. I find it hard to believe your perspective is reminiscent of someone who has worked on the design aspect. If you did, you would understand the requirements of the job are your primary concern, and if something is even mildly exploitable to the point that it puts constrains on months and months of work, that takes precedence over the desire to hoard in preparation for content that's immediately released. Further negating your design and creating more workload. Of course, you know that so I don't need to point that out.

That’s a terrible argument, they’re not limiting resources. They’re just limiting the free ones.

They're limiting (reducing) the availability of Resources that were more easily farmable than should be for a Player attacking content designed to be highly challenging. Let's be honest. If it wasn't lucrative enough that people were milking it, we wouldn't see this reaction.

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Hate to burst your bubble and I will. I have experience on both sides. I also have experience in other games where this exact same tactic that is being done by kabam was pulled on nerfing farm runs for stuff for high end farm runs. Runs that you can’t even phantom. Rubs that take 8-12+ hours to compete. And you know what happened when that company pulled what kabam is? They went out of business within a year. Didn’t even take a year. Was 3 months and the game died. So yea. I actually do know what I am talking about unlike you

If you have experience on both sides, then you will understand the difference between player ultimatums and design necessity. One most certainly comes before the other. I find it hard to believe your perspective is reminiscent of someone who has worked on the design aspect. If you did, you would understand the requirements of the job are your primary concern, and if something is even mildly exploitable to the point that it puts constrains on months and months of work, that takes precedence over the desire to hoard in preparation for content that's immediately released. Further negating your design and creating more workload. Of course, you know that so I don't need to point that out.

That’s a terrible argument, they’re not limiting resources. They’re just limiting the free ones.

They're limiting (reducing) the availability of Resources that were more easily farmable than should be for a Player attacking content designed to be highly challenging. Let's be honest. If it wasn't lucrative enough that people were milking it, we wouldn't see this reaction.

Lucrative to the players?

That's what I meant, yes. I'm not feeding this narrative of Kabam vs. Players.

Mr_West

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Hate to burst your bubble and I will. I have experience on both sides. I also have experience in other games where this exact same tactic that is being done by kabam was pulled on nerfing farm runs for stuff for high end farm runs. Runs that you can’t even phantom. Rubs that take 8-12+ hours to compete. And you know what happened when that company pulled what kabam is? They went out of business within a year. Didn’t even take a year. Was 3 months and the game died. So yea. I actually do know what I am talking about unlike you

If you have experience on both sides, then you will understand the difference between player ultimatums and design necessity. One most certainly comes before the other. I find it hard to believe your perspective is reminiscent of someone who has worked on the design aspect. If you did, you would understand the requirements of the job are your primary concern, and if something is even mildly exploitable to the point that it puts constrains on months and months of work, that takes precedence over the desire to hoard in preparation for content that's immediately released. Further negating your design and creating more workload. Of course, you know that so I don't need to point that out.

That’s a terrible argument, they’re not limiting resources. They’re just limiting the free ones.

They're limiting (reducing) the availability of Resources that were more easily farmable than should be for a Player attacking content designed to be highly challenging. Let's be honest. If it wasn't lucrative enough that people were milking it, we wouldn't see this reaction.

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Hate to burst your bubble and I will. I have experience on both sides. I also have experience in other games where this exact same tactic that is being done by kabam was pulled on nerfing farm runs for stuff for high end farm runs. Runs that you can’t even phantom. Rubs that take 8-12+ hours to compete. And you know what happened when that company pulled what kabam is? They went out of business within a year. Didn’t even take a year. Was 3 months and the game died. So yea. I actually do know what I am talking about unlike you

If you have experience on both sides, then you will understand the difference between player ultimatums and design necessity. One most certainly comes before the other. I find it hard to believe your perspective is reminiscent of someone who has worked on the design aspect. If you did, you would understand the requirements of the job are your primary concern, and if something is even mildly exploitable to the point that it puts constrains on months and months of work, that takes precedence over the desire to hoard in preparation for content that's immediately released. Further negating your design and creating more workload. Of course, you know that so I don't need to point that out.

That’s a terrible argument, they’re not limiting resources. They’re just limiting the free ones.

They're limiting (reducing) the availability of Resources that were more easily farmable than should be for a Player attacking content designed to be highly challenging. Let's be honest. If it wasn't lucrative enough that people were milking it, we wouldn't see this reaction.

Lucrative to the players?

That's what I meant, yes. I'm not feeding this narrative of Kabam vs. Players.

It did help offset the cost of doing end game content, but that’s what I’ve been saying.

Ironman3000

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

So you've done all the things that don't require 'revive spamming, which was his point. You haven't done Abyss or Carina's Vol 2 or 3. Did you do Vol 1 with the 4* LOL runs?

Are you planning on doing any of that content and if so how are you going to do it w/o spending?

Mr_West

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

DNA3000

SidewaysFringe said:

Nah, its not like that. Sometimes I'm treated like a hero, and sometimes I'm treated like the villain, but regardless I'm going to call them like I see them. And at the end of the day, anyone who goes after my ideas is playing fair, however much they might try to incinerate them, and anyone going after me personally is going to have to be really good at it to make a significant dent.

In fact, one of the things I'm looking at now are the farming numbers, because while I agree in principle with what the devs are doing in general, I'm not sure the specific numbers are appropriate. I'm looking at them because I think they deserve to be looked at, and no amount of disagrees is going to make me suddenly think that's not worth the effort.

People are going to respond passionately to things they actually care about, and reacting passionately to these changes means in spite of all the talk about players no longer caring about the game, they clearly still do. So swing at me and I will swing back, and I have thirty five years of practice at it, but it doesn't really bother me that much when the playerbase decides to organize themselves into a focused force for change, even when sometimes I'm the first target on their list.

DNA3000

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

Kratos_charly

There is no kabam vs player, it's just their game and they're going to do what they want with it. Users have every right to complain because most of them like this game and they don't want to leave it. but many of us don't want a pay-to-win either and if not there is no choice but to leave the game then no way. In the end, they seem to have many more compliant players, who will simply adapt and always applaud Kabam's decisions, no matter how bad they are.

Mr_West

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

So a lot. Probably more that me. Yet you still think that this isn’t a terrible idea aimed at nothing more than increasing spending? I understand that this is a business and they must remain profitable, but this strikes the wrong note and will end up costing them more than money and the community more than revives.

Vydra

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

So you’ve rehashed what I said and further solidified the point I made. Notice how majority of those content can get you by without “excessive farming”.

And since you claim to be *the* player base they’re targeting, how about starting Abyss or Carina’s One to actually be part of *the* player base you referred to? I’m sure there’s a good number who tried and decided such content isn’t for them anymore and decided to take it slow

The player base they’re targeting are the ones who excessively farm and finish those content and more. These are the players who actually still care about playing and remaining competitive and of whom a portion that spend in varying degrees.

They don’t care about you and the others who barely touch the content they put out. Because even if this change goes through, your player base will continue to remain stagnant or possibly call it quits. As for the actual targetted player base, many changes will start to happen.

1. Whales and most competitive players who farm/spend to finish new and all content within a day or a week
2. Competitive players, small spenders and F2P who don’t rush to complete but still farm/spend to finish it within 1-2 months
3. Casual players some of whom are competitive or non-competitive who take a longer time to finish than group 2
4. Casual players who are non-competitive selectively doing content
5. Casual players who don’t touch any content maybe except alliance modes and EQ/SQ

The player base you mentioned is group 4. This change will affect group 1 slightly and don’t tell me whales don’t farm or are willing to spend after this. And it will also largely affect group 2 and 3 in how they approach content. Group 2 and 3 will have the MOST impact. Group 4 and 5 will continue to stagnate or eventually call it a day first.

Mr_West

GroundedWisdom said:

R_jay0027 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Actually that is a false flag argument. The chef can make the best Beef Bourguignon in the world, but it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it. As a Chef I know that you don't necessarily get to do or make the food you would like if no one wants to pay for it.
Now you are correct this game can do whatever it likes in its own interest. However if it does drive people to spend less and drive away paying customers it will have an impact on everyone.

People stop engaging this guy. He is just trying to get the thread shut down. It happens every time.

I gave an example of who I would inquire with on how to make it. Not how good it tastes.

Then the chef comes out and says the fork and knife cost extra. Pick it up and take a bite or pay more for the tools to eat it. Are you going to continue to frequent that establishment?

GroundedWisdom

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

R_jay0027 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Actually that is a false flag argument. The chef can make the best Beef Bourguignon in the world, but it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it. As a Chef I know that you don't necessarily get to do or make the food you would like if no one wants to pay for it.
Now you are correct this game can do whatever it likes in its own interest. However if it does drive people to spend less and drive away paying customers it will have an impact on everyone.

People stop engaging this guy. He is just trying to get the thread shut down. It happens every time.

I gave an example of who I would inquire with on how to make it. Not how good it tastes.

Then the chef comes out and says the fork and knife cost extra. Pick it up and take a bite or pay more for the tools to eat it. Are you going to continue to frequent that establishment?

That's not what we're looking at here. Revives are still available for zero dollars. What isn't on the "table" is an unlimited supply for a nominal cost of Energy.

Mr_West

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

R_jay0027 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Actually that is a false flag argument. The chef can make the best Beef Bourguignon in the world, but it's only worth what people are willing to pay for it. As a Chef I know that you don't necessarily get to do or make the food you would like if no one wants to pay for it.
Now you are correct this game can do whatever it likes in its own interest. However if it does drive people to spend less and drive away paying customers it will have an impact on everyone.

People stop engaging this guy. He is just trying to get the thread shut down. It happens every time.

I gave an example of who I would inquire with on how to make it. Not how good it tastes.

Then the chef comes out and says the fork and knife cost extra. Pick it up and take a bite or pay more for the tools to eat it. Are you going to continue to frequent that establishment?

That's not what we're looking at here. Revives are still available for zero dollars. What isn't on the "table" is an unlimited supply for a nominal cost of Energy.

That’s exactly what we’re looking at here. They limited the amount that can be earned in a given time. The resource expires. So, to do the content the options are pay more, or don’t do it

GroundedWisdom

Sauciestburrito said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Mr_West said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

He has more experience from a design perspective than anyone has playing MCOC on here. I don't think it's a reasonable call-out.

You don’t have any room to speak either. You’re thornebreaker

Okay, the last I checked, we were talking about Revives being farmed. Not having an Elementary School contest of whose in-game progress is the biggest.
In actuality, calling people out for progress in the game is a last-ditch effort in a dying debate. It's low-hat.
No one needs to "pony up" to discuss the issue. That's not how this Forum operates. Further to that, if you were to ask me whose judgment I would trust more for what's best for the game, I'd say the person who has many years of experience on both sides of the game. If I want to know how to make Boeuf Bourguignon, I talk to the Chef. Not the customer who eats it everyday.
Feedback from users is valuable. It doesn't matter more than the people who have years of extensive knowledge producing this game, or others. If every change that was ever implemented had to pass popular vote, the game wouldn't have lasted 6 months.
Either way, this mess about calling people out for having views is really juvenile. If you have points to make, use your words. Not your Account.

Hate to burst your bubble and I will. I have experience on both sides. I also have experience in other games where this exact same tactic that is being done by kabam was pulled on nerfing farm runs for stuff for high end farm runs. Runs that you can’t even phantom. Rubs that take 8-12+ hours to compete. And you know what happened when that company pulled what kabam is? They went out of business within a year. Didn’t even take a year. Was 3 months and the game died. So yea. I actually do know what I am talking about unlike you

If you have experience on both sides, then you will understand the difference between player ultimatums and design necessity. One most certainly comes before the other. I find it hard to believe your perspective is reminiscent of someone who has worked on the design aspect. If you did, you would understand the requirements of the job are your primary concern, and if something is even mildly exploitable to the point that it puts constrains on months and months of work, that takes precedence over the desire to hoard in preparation for content that's immediately released. Further negating your design and creating more workload. Of course, you know that so I don't need to point that out.

That’s a terrible argument, they’re not limiting resources. They’re just limiting the free ones.

They're limiting (reducing) the availability of Resources that were more easily farmable than should be for a Player attacking content designed to be highly challenging. Let's be honest. If it wasn't lucrative enough that people were milking it, we wouldn't see this reaction.

You're missing the fact that the challenging content is challenging regardless of how many revives you use. That's actually the point of the content, is that you have to use dozens and dozens of revives to get through it. If they didn't intend for that then they did a terrible job designing it and need to nerf all of the everest content considerably.

If Kabam really wanted to make challenging content only doable by highly skilled players, they would put a revive cap on that content. They didn't do that. Instead they only limited the amount of revives you can get for free. They literally did nothing to stop people from "spamming revives" to get through difficult content. Now you just have to buy those revives.

It's disingenuous at best and a straight up lie at worst.

Is the revive farm extreme and could it be toned down a little? Sure, absolutely. But the fact that the game is overrun by bugs and modders and the thing they choose to address is to take away free revives from players, and then spout off some completely BS and flawed reasoning for doing it is why people are upset.

People are upset because it was an easy-breezy way of getting them. I'm sorry if that offends people, but that's really the crux.
I've been playing for over 7 years. I haven't farmed. Not because I consider myself above it. I just never looked for easier avenues. As long as I've been playing, if I'm attacking a particularly challenging piece of content, I save up as many Pots and Revs as I can muster, AND go in with a certain amount of Units on-hand. That's been the general suggestion for years now.
No content requires people to spam the lower Acts for Revs. That's just not a thing when it comes to the design of the game, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that no content was designed with that in mind, or the preface that people can just spend ad nauseum *muahahaha*. It takes patience, planning, and forethought. That's it.

Deepworld

The way I see it is like the move Apple made a couple of years back to remove the plugs when buying a new iPhone in an attempt to be more “environmentally sustainable with their packaging” when in reality, they just want to squeeze a little bit of extra cash out of their users. Same goes for Kabam - don’t try and greedily change something that’s existed for YEARS under the good guy guise. Your player base is not thick, it’s glaringly obvious when you make these profit-driven decisions and there’s no sympathy to be given, especially not when you’re refusing to fix a game that seems to get buggier and more frustrating by the update.

DNA3000

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

So a lot. Probably more that me. Yet you still think that this isn’t a terrible idea aimed at nothing more than increasing spending? I understand that this is a business and they must remain profitable, but this strikes the wrong note and will end up costing them more than money and the community more than revives.

Opposing this change on principle would go against everything I've ever stated about good game design. So changing my mind just because it impacts me personally would be hypocritical.

I *can* oppose the details, if I discover a problem with the details. But I won't oppose a change the developers make that is clearly (to me) targeted at infinite farming of resources being used in end game content without some really good overriding reason.

Vydra

Anyway my final post on this thread. Enough noise has been made and I hope the game team are open ears to EVERYTHING that’s been discussed, whether or not it’s for or against.

I can see why a nerf is necessary but supplementing changes are needed to be made whether it’s to do with accrual of revives, inventory caps or even adjustment of future content. And I’m a firm believer that if it comes to spending, it’s by the free hand.

But what bugs me and several others is the flawed reasoning and contradictions to justify the nerf to revives. It doesn’t sit right with majority of players with the gaslighting statements made like “trivialising content” or “game team felt the need to dilute rewards or hold back content”

Mr_West

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

So a lot. Probably more that me. Yet you still think that this isn’t a terrible idea aimed at nothing more than increasing spending? I understand that this is a business and they must remain profitable, but this strikes the wrong note and will end up costing them more than money and the community more than revives.

Opposing this change on principle would go against everything I've ever stated about good game design. So changing my mind just because it impacts me personally would be hypocritical.

I *can* oppose the details, if I discover a problem with the details. But I won't oppose a change the developers make that is clearly (to me) targeted at infinite farming of resources being used in end game content without some really good overriding reason.

I oppose the details they listed. Do you? The explanation given is clearly not true, and the proposed solution proves that.

DNA3000

Vydra said:

They don’t care about you and the others who barely touch the content they put out. Because even if this change goes through, your player base will continue to remain stagnant or possibly call it quits.

This gets into Kafkaesque territory. The change targets farming revives. I know what content I've done and I know what I've done to complete it, and I'm not going to shift the discussion towards a defense of playstyle. If you think this change doesn't affect me, you're just wrong. If you think the change *shouldn't* affect me or attempting to lay a childish trap along those lines, I'm not biting.

Spaec

I've been playing this game for about 18 months, so I've never played without 1) input bugs and 2) the revive farm. So from day one I've known that you can swipe and get no response or block and watch the enemy hit right through it, and the only think you can do is keep an adequate supply of revives and spend one when it happens. I never would've stuck with this game without the revive farm and if it goes, so do I.

DNA3000

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

So a lot. Probably more that me. Yet you still think that this isn’t a terrible idea aimed at nothing more than increasing spending? I understand that this is a business and they must remain profitable, but this strikes the wrong note and will end up costing them more than money and the community more than revives.

Opposing this change on principle would go against everything I've ever stated about good game design. So changing my mind just because it impacts me personally would be hypocritical.

I *can* oppose the details, if I discover a problem with the details. But I won't oppose a change the developers make that is clearly (to me) targeted at infinite farming of resources being used in end game content without some really good overriding reason.

I oppose the details they listed. Do you? The explanation given is clearly not true, and the proposed solution proves that.

I'm not sure why you believe the provided explanation isn't true, because that exact situation is something I've mentioned more than once on the forums as being a very problematic one. Had you put me in charge of the game economy a year ago, some sort of change would have happened a year ago.

Proposing a solution you like better doesn't prove someone is not sincere in their belief there is a specific problem. I doubt you would accept such reasoning yourself: if you claim there's a problem and propose a solution, and I propose one I like better but you disagree, I couldn't use that fact to prove you were insincere.

As to the specifics, I'm still thinking them over.

Mr_West

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Mr_West said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

Did you farm revives to offset spending?

Enough to be able to tell you that the revives in 3.2.6 cost 32.9 energy per revive on average, assuming you use the optimal path strategy, and if you include the energy capturable with the optimum strategy.

So a lot. Probably more that me. Yet you still think that this isn’t a terrible idea aimed at nothing more than increasing spending? I understand that this is a business and they must remain profitable, but this strikes the wrong note and will end up costing them more than money and the community more than revives.

Opposing this change on principle would go against everything I've ever stated about good game design. So changing my mind just because it impacts me personally would be hypocritical.

I *can* oppose the details, if I discover a problem with the details. But I won't oppose a change the developers make that is clearly (to me) targeted at infinite farming of resources being used in end game content without some really good overriding reason.

I oppose the details they listed. Do you? The explanation given is clearly not true, and the proposed solution proves that.

I'm not sure why you believe the provided explanation isn't true, because that exact situation is something I've mentioned more than once on the forums as being a very problematic one. Had you put me in charge of the game economy a year ago, some sort of change would have happened a year ago.

Proposing a solution you like better doesn't prove someone is not sincere in their belief there is a specific problem. I doubt you would accept such reasoning yourself: if you claim there's a problem and propose a solution, and I propose one I like better but you disagree, I couldn't use that fact to prove you were insincere.

As to the specifics, I'm still thinking them over.

The timeframe for farming free revives/ expiration and storage limits is what makes me say that. Give us the equivalent units everyday and I would change my mind.

Vydra

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

They don’t care about you and the others who barely touch the content they put out. Because even if this change goes through, your player base will continue to remain stagnant or possibly call it quits.

This gets into Kafkaesque territory. The change targets farming revives. I know what content I've done and I know what I've done to complete it, and I'm not going to shift the discussion towards a defense of playstyle. If you think this change doesn't affect me, you're just wrong. If you think the change *shouldn't* affect me or attempting to lay a childish trap along those lines, I'm not biting.

I didn’t say it shouldn’t affect you. All I said was, there are players in different player bases above you that will be affected on a much bigger scale. Do read the line I said that your “target group” will continue to stagnate or quit. That’s still affecting you guys. Don’t tell me this change is suddenly going to push you to attempt Abyss or whatever; if anything it pushes you away further.

This is still in line with the assumption you made about how you are *the* targetted player, *the* player base that will be impacted the most and as well as yourself going as far as segregating whales and how the average player plays(in other posts) - hence me stating the groups, but suddenly you don’t want to acknowledge that. It’s certainly isn’t the case and I had to shoot down that dangerous misconception you put out.

krystolix

Soooo what telling us is you guys make extreme content, and expect us to go in with little resources to complete it. The option now being doing a daily quest that MIGHT give us an extra revive. I couldn't care less about the potions. Potions to me are useless. Revives are worth infinitely more and cost lest units (hmmm weird). Would be cool if we had a limit of 50 for items like that. But I doubt that'll happen. BUT HEY!!! We can still BUY infinite revives! So that's good!

Demonzfyre

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Vydra said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

Ironman3000 said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.

I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.

Then you have no skin in the game. You don't complete the content that you need revives for so this doesn't affect you.

That's like me, who doesn't play arena, supporting a nerf to units from the milestones because it doesn't affect me.

Very selfish stance.

I said I don't spend cash to complete content. And neither do the people who farm revives to within an inch of their lives. I *am* the player this change is targeted at, moreso than probably anyone else. The top tier players who farm revives aren't going to be affected all that much: they can still do almost everything. It just might be harder for them to save up the resources. The whales aren't going to blink an eye.

It is players like me who will either be able to do it with farmed resources or probably not at all who have the most skin in the game. We are the players whose game experience will change the most after this change. Most of the players I know who either oppose this change or who dislike it, they are almost all exactly like me, in exactly the same position as me, contemplating a game where top tier content might be drifting out of reach. Players who balanced skill and resource management to make progress in the game.

I have a lot of sympathy for them, because I am them. And anyone who thinks they own the moral high ground to tell me I am not qualified to have an opinion on the matter is free to locate the nearest tree and make for that moral high ground.

That’s your comment from yesterday. If the last piece of content you did was the Maze and you failed and barely did EoP, we have some news for you

The last piece of content I attempted and failed was the Maze. If the last piece of content I attempted was the Maze, then you are using a time machine to talk to me in 2019.

The very next sentence says "if it came and went after that, I completed it at its highest difficulty." That's all the Boss Rushes, all the celebrity challenges, all the special one time quests, the Gauntlet, Summer of Pain, and all of the weekly EoP quests. All points, all milestones, all achievable rewards. The only EoP content I haven't done yet are the permanent EoP objectives, as I mentioned. I don't think that counts as "barely did EoP."

So you've done all the things that don't require 'revive spamming, which was his point. You haven't done Abyss or Carina's Vol 2 or 3. Did you do Vol 1 with the 4* LOL runs?

Are you planning on doing any of that content and if so how are you going to do it w/o spending?

Why do you think you're a better player than him because you revived your way through carinas or the abyss? How much skill does it take to revive 50 times to complete a carinas challenge or a path in abyss?

He's not saying he couldn't do EoP with Carinas V3, he's saying he hasn't tried. Really, anyone can revive their way through content but that doesn't make them a skilled player. He has as much insight if not more than nearly everyone on these forums. He's been one of the few people in the community who have actually had direct effect on changes made to the game.

You aren't MSD, you aren't Sweeduh and you aren't Slayer. You're a regular person who revived their way through content.

BigBlueOx

It’d be nice if we could keep the thread on track. Nobody wants to see this closed. Lots of good feedback is being provided here.

The problem as I see it isn’t the nerfing if the revive farm, it’s being sold magic beans in its place. Other changes are needed to make this apothecary idea a relevant solution. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of yet another mindless daily quest, would much prefer seeing potions added to EQ or SQs instead. Again this doesn’t have to be an RNG item, why can’t acts 7 and 8 provide a model for one time items, just like the gold that’s currently there. Let’s add meaningful, title gated potions here. It’s content most do anyways