Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

Mknight123

Awful changes, gutless in fact, we get a 1 revive a day? For exploration? Yeh no kabam you've done yourselves in here, I'm a non spending player and will continue to be but if kabam are working on "high difficulty content" we should be able to continue revive farming as it stops players like myself from spending money on units for revives when I'm in a situation without revives or units. Kabam have kabamed themselves.

Mackey

roastedbagel said:

ILoveDrDoom said:

Lol Kabam so out of touch man, I’ve been able to complete difficult content because of 3.2.6.

I don't think that's how it was intended to exist though...

Also, how many arenas does it take to get 1200 units (30 revives if going off the Carina comparison)? Is it really that much longer than 30 runs of the map?

I genuinely don't know and am honestly curious on those numbers...

The difference is that a large number of units which come from arena grinding are from battlechips which have a small odds of giving units opposed to gold. I don't know whether it'd take longer to grind arena or 30 runs of 3.2.6 though as I don't do arena

Badah

This was from a post a month ago...

Kabam Jax said:

Wait wait wait...

What are you guys doing at 3.2.6...?

Prophetic, right?

Ackbar67

I understand the need to limit revive farming, it is admittedly a little broken in its current state. But limiting it to 1 revive per day seems excessive. I would even grudgingly accept it being capped at 2, at least it would be feasible to get a healthy stash going for difficult content.

As far as I know, there's no way to farm lv2 and lv3 revives, so we can find the soft cap for farmed revives

15 in stash (without sigil)
7 from strategically waiting to claim 22h solo rewards
14 from 22h solo rewards
10 from Apothecary

for a total of 46 revives. That is a lot, but not enough for most people to do something like abyss. Revive farming did not used to be an option, but in those days the hardest content was Labyrinth, in which the normal revive usage typically didn't exceed 30. If they design content in the future around this limit I will have less objections, but all the content that was designed for heavy revive use will still exist without the usual way to get those revives.

Also, this might be the worst ratio I've ever seen here

DNA3000

Fitnesscw said:

Grinding revives shouldn't be nerfed. Period. I could see if it was like 10 energy for a revive grind but it's literally 40 energy for 1 revive? Maybe? Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 full energy refills to get 1 single revive. This is just disgusting

It is 33 energy per revive, seven to eight per day depending on whether you have Sigil energy, 98 to 112 revives farmable within the 14 day stash expiration window, on top of inventory, and on top of revives farmable with energy refills. The theoretical maximum assuming you do not spend units on revives or refills is about 135 revives within the 14 day expiration window if you do not let refills build up in your stash, and about 190 if you do.

Axew

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

Emilia90 said:

MBogusz said:

Next change - removing units from arena crystals! But for the players benefit obviously

“Players were spamming units from arenas so we’ve decided to remove them. Instead, you can get one unit a day playing this really dumb quest.”

Possibly they would just be selling arena crystals in the unit store or something.

SCZ said:

Item limits should be removed with this change

This should have been done a long time ago honestly. They can't reasonably expect anyone to complete some of the harder pieces of content with only 15 revives and 25 lvl 1 potions on the inventory.

Potions should have become percentage based instead of set numbers years ago as well, but of course we can’t have nice things.

Jinxesaxe

The revive farming changes are very disappointing, even as someone who doesn’t farm revives. The “alternative” feels shallow and doesn’t seem to understand the need of the greater player base.

The content:player account strength ratio has been off for quite awhile. “Spamming revives” is still very doable, just has a paywall to it. To help stop spamming revives, we should add an item use limit, like in AQ/AW.

This whole situation again, seems to miss what revive farming is used for. I don’t wish to be non-constructive with this thread, so I have some ideas that I believe would help later game player MORE than another poorly designed daily quest.

-Stop using RNG entirely. You make a point in your statement that revive farming won’t rely on RNG on paths, but immediately after state that there’s only a 1% chance for a level 1 revive on a quest mode.

-Make 4 hour crystals more available. Maybe every 3 hours? Every 2?

-Lower costs of revives. This could help exponentially, making it easier for summoners to spend real money on revives.

-Create an arena with revives that runs alongside the basic and featured! Much like the catalyst clash arenas (which also need an update).

-Update the login calendar. Add more revives! It’s long overdue for an update that’s not for a new progression level. More incentive to login!

-Update the Test Of Progression & Black Iso Market to include more revives and items. This would add revenue, and fix the issue at hand!

Some other quality of life changes with this daily quest:

-Get rid of the alliance quest potion. No one will get noticeable usage of these potions. Make it a level 1 revive, and add a 1% chance for a higher level revive.

-Make item storage larger!

I really appreciate you trying to make things better for the longevity of MCOC, but I don’t believe this is the way to do that. I hope my ideas are taken into consideration and help make impact for the player base.

Jinx

Worknprogress

GroundedWisdom said:

AustinU823 said:

I want to see the number of players

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

I have a better suggestion for the "spamming revives" issue.

How about adding a cooldown of like, 30 minutes before you're able to use a revive again?

That way people won't just spam them. They are either forced to play their very best so that they can get the max use out of their try, or either have to patiently wait 30 minutes to try again.

You can also add an option to watch like 5x ads to skip the cooldown. And another option to skip it via some additional units as well, why not.

That’s not the real issue. They don’t care that you’re using a lot of revives. They care that you’re not spending 40 units a piece for them

From what I understand, they care about the level of challenge that the content they release provides. When you have Players sitting on stockpiles of Revs from farming and they're pushing through it the day it's released, that puts a strain on design. At least that's what I'm interpretating.

Revive spamming only really works as well as it does bc they let Herc loose busted as all hell. A 20% revive with no pots doesn't get you very far most of the time unless you just so happen to have a champ that goes immortal and unblockable for a minute or two at a time. Probably should have looked at that first...

BɅTTLEHɅMMER

This is such a horrible change, even from the perspective of "closing loopholes" as they so eloquently put it.

A single revive per day? That's insanely stingy, especially when you factor in that it's only a level 1 revive, which barely gives you enough health to tackle said higher difficulty content.

This is a new low.

DarkestDestroyer

What a ridiculous change this is, and also what good are level 1 healing potions for a 6* champion, you need around 100 of them to get to full health.

Guytennis

“This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain because Summoners simply spam revives. For us to allow what is effectively a loophole for these challenging pieces of content, we would have to dilute rewards given from that content, and that is not something we want to do”

To clarify, the ‘loophole’ is circumventing buying units. People are spending their time farming resources instead of spending their money buying resources. That’s the problem Kabam is trying to solve?

Farming resources doesn’t trivialize the difficulty of content, it trivializes the amount of money Kabam can make. They want us to buy a million resources and not farm them.

Mackey

DNA3000 said:

FiiNCH said:

DNA3000 said:

FiiNCH said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

People trying to complete content with no access to farming revives perhaps..

Just "people?" Sure, but which people who don't have access to farming revives? Everyone keeps saying this is a cash grab. But how many of them are actually planning on spending cash because of this cash grab?

It can't be a cash grab if no one actually spends on it. And while I'm sure someone somewhere will spend something, it won't be an effective cash grab unless a large number of players spend.

I don't think this has anything to do with monetization, because there is simply not enough money on the table. The problem is a much more direct problem with top tier content balancing.

Content in this game is balanced in large part on a curve. Which is to say, the more players who complete it, the easier it is. The fewer players that complete it, or the more players that attempt it and fail, the harder it is. That's the definition of content difficulty. It isn't hard because it looks hard on paper. Its hard if we can't do it.

If we all go into EoP with a hundred revives, we're going to tear through it like it is tissue paper. This shows up in the game data as a massive imbalance between the rewards and the measured difficulty of the content. This means one of two things: EoP-like content must now have much lower rewards, or EoP-like content must be diesigned vastly harder until the content is measured to be difficult enough to be appropriate.

The devs can't just "let us use the revives" because they can't just make the content and then let us do whatever we want to it. That's not how games like this are maintained. If we use tons of consumables to beat the content, the content will have to adjust to that.

So what's it going to be? Eventually have all end game content *only* doable with hundreds of revives, and if you don't farm hundreds of consumables it will just be impossible for you? Or have end game content have trivial rewards appropriate to the fact that pretty much everyone sails through it? Or reduce the flow of otherwise practically unlimited consumables and allow content to be balanced around players having a more manageable amount of consumables to throw at the content.

This problem is independent of monetization and has nothing to do with it. Whether Kabam makes more, less, or the same amount of money, they still have to solve this problem. Exponentially increase the difficulty, logarithmically lower the rewards, or reduce unlimited consumable farming. You have to pick one. And as someone who used to farm potions and revives enough to actually know the statistical average return of those maps accurately, of those three options I dislike the third one the least.

I won't like seeing my revive farms disappear. But I think I would like seeing all future end game content be designed in such a way that neutralizes that advantage even less. Once it gets hard enough that even the top tier players are going to need hundreds of revives to complete it, what are players like me supposed to do? We'd be locked out completely. But that's where this ultimately goes, if it is left unchecked.

Sorry @DNA3000 - I don’t agree with your logic here.

As someone said earlier, if Kabam want us to (in their words) ‘stop spamming revives’, then why don’t they put an item limit on quests. They’ve removed the ftp farming option but kept the pay to win option. So it appears they don’t want us to stop spamming, they just want us to pay for it.

They could just ban items altogether from top tier content. Not only would this eliminate the farming problem, but it would literally dunk on the players claiming that this was a "cash grab."

That's what I would do. Kabam is just reducing farming rather than eliminating it and is continuing to allow players to use items in top tier content because they have more mercy than I do.

As to "keeping the pay to win option" yeah, they still allow people to actually buy things and use things. Because if they don't, the game will die. That's true everywhere. We have random crystals that the whales can just buy hundreds of to guarantee getting what they want. We have inventory limits that the whales can bypass by simply buying unlimited amounts of what they need. We have reward tiers that the whales can just buy their way to the top of. We have constraints on how much rewards flow into the game that the spenders can work around.

Spenders can do more than non-spenders can do, because that's how we encourage them to spend. To say that a game design decision is not valid because spending allows those decisions to be mitigated is simply not understanding how games like this work. *Every* decision can have its validity questioned like this. But game designers still have to design games with design rules nonetheless. They still have to balance their game economies nonetheless. They still have to implement controls and limits nonetheless.

So why are they using the "spamming of revives" as an excuse then? Because we can still do that by purchasing them. They haven't explicitly said "we want you to buy them" but they're quite clearly hoping that is what the outcome will achieve

RRICK215

Complete and utter bulldookey! Who cares how WE use OUR resources (Energy, units, etc) to obtain potions for potion farming. Now you are limiting what we can get and taking away auto option. Crock of dog dookey! Hating this pile of terds.

FuzzyFox

Revives from store at 40 units a pop is too much to pay for X amount of revives for run of EOP, Abyss, or GM Gauntlet.

we can only hold 15 revives level 1 revives at a time which is not enough to do anything as we revive farm when we need to otherwise everything expires to quickly.

If Kabam raised the revive limit to say 40 or 50 that would be a good compromise, so at least we can be half prepared when new content gets released.

Fox

Eb0ny-O-M4w

I'm now afraid they are going to cap the ammount of 4-hour crystals in the future, so that we can only pop 10 per day or something.

Surely not, right...?

Omedenn

They frenzy this whole game.

also, this thread has 4 comments tomorrow. Because they don’t only delete revives. They also delete comments

L0TUS_MANTIS

They couldnt just make some anti-Herc nodes? jeeze

Magrailothos

I understand there's a degree of logic that unlimited revives poses an issue; although I'm sure other options could work - why not just limit the size of the overflow stash? Or lock players out of the early game content once they hit Cavalier?

I can't help thinking that a considerable part of what's led to this is to because of just one champion...

DarkestDestroyer

Axew said:

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

Emilia90 said:

MBogusz said:

Next change - removing units from arena crystals! But for the players benefit obviously

“Players were spamming units from arenas so we’ve decided to remove them. Instead, you can get one unit a day playing this really dumb quest.”

Possibly they would just be selling arena crystals in the unit store or something.

SCZ said:

Item limits should be removed with this change

This should have been done a long time ago honestly. They can't reasonably expect anyone to complete some of the harder pieces of content with only 15 revives and 25 lvl 1 potions on the inventory.

Potions should have become percentage based instead of set numbers years ago as well, but of course we can’t have nice things.

A percentage based health potion is an awesome idea, why’s that not even a thing actually when the revives are % based!

Chuck_Finley

This news on the heels of “yeah we know there are modders, input issues, and matchmaking issues in BGs…. We are working on it, trust us.” But in the meantime, you have plenty of time to take away this from the player base and create new events to nerf revives.

Forgive me if I don’t take your previous statement seriously.

Black1377

Wow KABAM this time after all crazynes you put out lately this is even more stupid that ypu could ever do. So you are changing games into PayToWin? Really good job? If you want to be content impossible then alao prevent using units for revives and that it. Same rules for everyone. And yeah they will replace farming with something totally useless. With health4 and health5 potuons from daily TB, we definitly need level 1 health potions who don't even heal 1% health of 6r4 champ. Really good job. Who even go out with that idea? I guess is all in money so is probally time soon to people stop playing the game if you continue like that

ThePharcide

12.0 called and just laughed at you.

Markjv81

At this stage you may as well just remove all content from the game and just sell the rewards for $$.

FiiNCH

DNA3000 said:

FiiNCH said:

DNA3000 said:

FiiNCH said:

DNA3000 said:

37v417 said:

What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.

How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?

People trying to complete content with no access to farming revives perhaps..

Just "people?" Sure, but which people who don't have access to farming revives? Everyone keeps saying this is a cash grab. But how many of them are actually planning on spending cash because of this cash grab?

It can't be a cash grab if no one actually spends on it. And while I'm sure someone somewhere will spend something, it won't be an effective cash grab unless a large number of players spend.

I don't think this has anything to do with monetization, because there is simply not enough money on the table. The problem is a much more direct problem with top tier content balancing.

Content in this game is balanced in large part on a curve. Which is to say, the more players who complete it, the easier it is. The fewer players that complete it, or the more players that attempt it and fail, the harder it is. That's the definition of content difficulty. It isn't hard because it looks hard on paper. Its hard if we can't do it.

If we all go into EoP with a hundred revives, we're going to tear through it like it is tissue paper. This shows up in the game data as a massive imbalance between the rewards and the measured difficulty of the content. This means one of two things: EoP-like content must now have much lower rewards, or EoP-like content must be diesigned vastly harder until the content is measured to be difficult enough to be appropriate.

The devs can't just "let us use the revives" because they can't just make the content and then let us do whatever we want to it. That's not how games like this are maintained. If we use tons of consumables to beat the content, the content will have to adjust to that.

So what's it going to be? Eventually have all end game content *only* doable with hundreds of revives, and if you don't farm hundreds of consumables it will just be impossible for you? Or have end game content have trivial rewards appropriate to the fact that pretty much everyone sails through it? Or reduce the flow of otherwise practically unlimited consumables and allow content to be balanced around players having a more manageable amount of consumables to throw at the content.

This problem is independent of monetization and has nothing to do with it. Whether Kabam makes more, less, or the same amount of money, they still have to solve this problem. Exponentially increase the difficulty, logarithmically lower the rewards, or reduce unlimited consumable farming. You have to pick one. And as someone who used to farm potions and revives enough to actually know the statistical average return of those maps accurately, of those three options I dislike the third one the least.

I won't like seeing my revive farms disappear. But I think I would like seeing all future end game content be designed in such a way that neutralizes that advantage even less. Once it gets hard enough that even the top tier players are going to need hundreds of revives to complete it, what are players like me supposed to do? We'd be locked out completely. But that's where this ultimately goes, if it is left unchecked.

Sorry @DNA3000 - I don’t agree with your logic here.

As someone said earlier, if Kabam want us to (in their words) ‘stop spamming revives’, then why don’t they put an item limit on quests. They’ve removed the ftp farming option but kept the pay to win option. So it appears they don’t want us to stop spamming, they just want us to pay for it.

They could just ban items altogether from top tier content. Not only would this eliminate the farming problem, but it would literally dunk on the players claiming that this was a "cash grab."

That's what I would do. Kabam is just reducing farming rather than eliminating it and is continuing to allow players to use items in top tier content because they have more mercy than I do.

As to "keeping the pay to win option" yeah, they still allow people to actually buy things and use things. Because if they don't, the game will die. That's true everywhere. We have random crystals that the whales can just buy hundreds of to guarantee getting what they want. We have inventory limits that the whales can bypass by simply buying unlimited amounts of what they need. We have reward tiers that the whales can just buy their way to the top of. We have constraints on how much rewards flow into the game that the spenders can work around.

Spenders can do more than non-spenders can do, because that's how we encourage them to spend. To say that a game design decision is not valid because spending allows those decisions to be mitigated is simply not understanding how games like this work. *Every* decision can have its validity questioned like this. But game designers still have to design games with design rules nonetheless. They still have to balance their game economies nonetheless. They still have to implement controls and limits nonetheless.

Spending should be optional.

With these changes spending will be a requirement to complete content like abyss or EOP.

Gamer

Oh yea can’t farm reviews for content now it unit

Havanaknight

If they removed the stash and allowed us to keep all consumables in inventory, this would make the change more palatable.

Archdemon_

absolutely shocking decision