Fun, I do wonder if the history of that word, how many time does it work, telling someone to calm down.
@WednesdayLength next time you are out and come face to face with someone angry, why don't you try saying that and see how affective it is.
The reason why this game have last 10 years, is down to one reason, the passion of the players (community) for this game (well that and addition).
That is why they will to drop thousands and thousands of their own money (hard earned money) into this game.
It create job, cashflow that pay for those at Kabam that making these decision ingame, like not rebalancing Serpent or neff Moleman or Kingpin (looking at Nick with trepidation).
The funny thing about passion it that is fuse love (for the game), but it is also the same fuse that cause anger.
So yeah, maybe we should all calm down, maybe we should all stop care, maybe we should stop spending, maybe we should all move on. Sure that will help the game grow and last for another 10 years.
Like I said there are worser thing than the users being angry at your decision, action and product. They can stop caring.
Anyway get this feeling that it is pointless discussing thing with you @WednesdayLength , so just gonna wish you a good day. I will get in with my day and not think about MCOC.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, I'm merely saying that complaining about a bug being fixed is absurd
I’d arguing that fixing a mechanic 3.5 years late while trying to convince us that a far more unbalanced champion is fair and on target eclipses the absurd you seem concerned about
Almost like they're handled by different teams all together?
That argument carries no weight. The amount of time where circumstances like this have occurred and the inability to coordinate has been exposed leaves me with no sympathy. They should know better after 10 years of running all this.
Oh so it's irrelevant just so you can continue to connect 2 events
English is a hard language, but his kit as it currently stands actually reads more like the effects are supposed to stack.
Let's take Onslaught, this is what is stated "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated." This is clearly worded, while Organic Magnetism is active, pass/fail, on or off.
The problem is the word "this" in Kingpin's current kit. "this" could refer to degeneration overall, but most would interpret "this" to be a reference to each stack of degen.
the ambiguity of including "this" degeneration is why no one would assume this wasn't working as intended.
I see that but I also think that "this" could be another way of saying the ability only triggers with his personal Degeneration. Degeneration is a very common ability for many champions and nodes so this was likely to prevent his ability from triggering due to other Degeneration effects.
For Onslaught, there's no need to use "this" or include the word "personal" because he's the only champion that uses Organic Magnetism (as of now). The way the ability is worded even covers if Organic Magnetism is either a Debuff or a Passive.
I believe that was intended, but there are also instances of champion descriptions including "personal effect" which is much clearer. Ultimately I can't fault the playerbase or Kabam for interpreting it differently, as the way it's written could easily imply either. The problem of course is that it was Kabam who wrote it in the first place.
I believe personal effects was only uses after kingpins buff. I could be wrong, but it seems that kinpins kit is essentially a first draft of saying personal degen effect without the term
It’s irrelevant because of repeating the same mistake over and over again loses credibility and sympathy for the ones that repeat the mistake.
And I could say the same thing about the playerbase continuously getting mad about things that aren't that big of an issue or applying malice to situations where it's not present.
People saying it wasn't a nerf it was a fix...do you even know what nerf means? It doesn't matter if it was a fix it still nerfs their kit compared to what was previously possible. Is this the worst nerf? No but I'm not going to play games with people who think I should use the words THEY want me to. Especially when the word is perfectly fine to use. Nerf and fix can be used in the same sentence. Even if their kits weren't working as intended.
Nerf means changing a champions intended kit because it's too strong, not fixing an unintended part of their kit to what it's supposed to be
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
It’s been there for how long and has been affecting what?
You have major fallout for a not change that the players/users aren’t happy with, then at the same time introduce a change that’s going to piss them off even further?
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
Fun, I do wonder if the history of that word, how many time does it work, telling someone to calm down.
@WednesdayLength next time you are out and come face to face with someone angry, why don't you try saying that and see how affective it is.
The reason why this game have last 10 years, is down to one reason, the passion of the players (community) for this game (well that and addition).
That is why they will to drop thousands and thousands of their own money (hard earned money) into this game.
It create job, cashflow that pay for those at Kabam that making these decision ingame, like not rebalancing Serpent or neff Moleman or Kingpin (looking at Nick with trepidation).
The funny thing about passion it that is fuse love (for the game), but it is also the same fuse that cause anger.
So yeah, maybe we should all calm down, maybe we should all stop care, maybe we should stop spending, maybe we should all move on. Sure that will help the game grow and last for another 10 years.
Like I said there are worser thing than the users being angry at your decision, action and product. They can stop caring.
Anyway get this feeling that it is pointless discussing thing with you @WednesdayLength , so just gonna wish you a good day. I will get in with my day and not think about MCOC.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, I'm merely saying that complaining about a bug being fixed is absurd
I’d arguing that fixing a mechanic 3.5 years late while trying to convince us that a far more unbalanced champion is fair and on target eclipses the absurd you seem concerned about
Almost like they're handled by different teams all together?
That argument carries no weight. The amount of time where circumstances like this have occurred and the inability to coordinate has been exposed leaves me with no sympathy. They should know better after 10 years of running all this.
Oh so it's irrelevant just so you can continue to connect 2 events
English is a hard language, but his kit as it currently stands actually reads more like the effects are supposed to stack.
Let's take Onslaught, this is what is stated "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated." This is clearly worded, while Organic Magnetism is active, pass/fail, on or off.
The problem is the word "this" in Kingpin's current kit. "this" could refer to degeneration overall, but most would interpret "this" to be a reference to each stack of degen.
the ambiguity of including "this" degeneration is why no one would assume this wasn't working as intended.
I see that but I also think that "this" could be another way of saying the ability only triggers with his personal Degeneration. Degeneration is a very common ability for many champions and nodes so this was likely to prevent his ability from triggering due to other Degeneration effects.
For Onslaught, there's no need to use "this" or include the word "personal" because he's the only champion that uses Organic Magnetism (as of now). The way the ability is worded even covers if Organic Magnetism is either a Debuff or a Passive.
I believe that was intended, but there are also instances of champion descriptions including "personal effect" which is much clearer. Ultimately I can't fault the playerbase or Kabam for interpreting it differently, as the way it's written could easily imply either. The problem of course is that it was Kabam who wrote it in the first place.
I believe personal effects was only uses after kingpins buff. I could be wrong, but it seems that kinpins kit is essentially a first draft of saying personal degen effect without the term
It’s irrelevant because of repeating the same mistake over and over again loses credibility and sympathy for the ones that repeat the mistake.
And I could say the same thing about the playerbase continuously getting mad about things that aren't that big of an issue or applying malice to situations where it's not present.
This is a game, none of this matters, period. But people have the right to provide feedback on unpopular decisions.
And this is the type of nerf that really should be triaged carefully and not just acted on when it persisted for 3.5 YEARS… got if this was so consequential it would have been caught sooner.
Outside of the Serpent BS… is why are bug fixers spending time in stuff like this when there is a litany of fight wide issues that you’d think might be prioritized when every other thread there are complaints about missed inputs, strikers getting blocked, and AI misbehavior. This is the type of nerf that impacted almost nothing at this point and was only going to be met with annoyance.
Fun, I do wonder if the history of that word, how many time does it work, telling someone to calm down.
@WednesdayLength next time you are out and come face to face with someone angry, why don't you try saying that and see how affective it is.
The reason why this game have last 10 years, is down to one reason, the passion of the players (community) for this game (well that and addition).
That is why they will to drop thousands and thousands of their own money (hard earned money) into this game.
It create job, cashflow that pay for those at Kabam that making these decision ingame, like not rebalancing Serpent or neff Moleman or Kingpin (looking at Nick with trepidation).
The funny thing about passion it that is fuse love (for the game), but it is also the same fuse that cause anger.
So yeah, maybe we should all calm down, maybe we should all stop care, maybe we should stop spending, maybe we should all move on. Sure that will help the game grow and last for another 10 years.
Like I said there are worser thing than the users being angry at your decision, action and product. They can stop caring.
Anyway get this feeling that it is pointless discussing thing with you @WednesdayLength , so just gonna wish you a good day. I will get in with my day and not think about MCOC.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, I'm merely saying that complaining about a bug being fixed is absurd
I’d arguing that fixing a mechanic 3.5 years late while trying to convince us that a far more unbalanced champion is fair and on target eclipses the absurd you seem concerned about
Almost like they're handled by different teams all together?
That argument carries no weight. The amount of time where circumstances like this have occurred and the inability to coordinate has been exposed leaves me with no sympathy. They should know better after 10 years of running all this.
Oh so it's irrelevant just so you can continue to connect 2 events
English is a hard language, but his kit as it currently stands actually reads more like the effects are supposed to stack.
Let's take Onslaught, this is what is stated "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated." This is clearly worded, while Organic Magnetism is active, pass/fail, on or off.
The problem is the word "this" in Kingpin's current kit. "this" could refer to degeneration overall, but most would interpret "this" to be a reference to each stack of degen.
the ambiguity of including "this" degeneration is why no one would assume this wasn't working as intended.
I see that but I also think that "this" could be another way of saying the ability only triggers with his personal Degeneration. Degeneration is a very common ability for many champions and nodes so this was likely to prevent his ability from triggering due to other Degeneration effects.
For Onslaught, there's no need to use "this" or include the word "personal" because he's the only champion that uses Organic Magnetism (as of now). The way the ability is worded even covers if Organic Magnetism is either a Debuff or a Passive.
I believe that was intended, but there are also instances of champion descriptions including "personal effect" which is much clearer. Ultimately I can't fault the playerbase or Kabam for interpreting it differently, as the way it's written could easily imply either. The problem of course is that it was Kabam who wrote it in the first place.
I believe personal effects was only uses after kingpins buff. I could be wrong, but it seems that kinpins kit is essentially a first draft of saying personal degen effect without the term
It’s irrelevant because of repeating the same mistake over and over again loses credibility and sympathy for the ones that repeat the mistake.
And I could say the same thing about the playerbase continuously getting mad about things that aren't that big of an issue or applying malice to situations where it's not present.
This is a game, none of this matters, period. But people have the right to provide feedback on unpopular decisions.
And this is the type of nerf that really should be triaged carefully and not just acted on when it persisted for 3.5 YEARS… got if this was so consequential it would have been caught sooner.
Outside of the Serpent BS… is why are bug fixers spending time in stuff like this when there is a litany of fight wide issues that you’d think might be prioritized when every other thread there are complaints about missed inputs, strikers getting blocked, and AI misbehavior. This is the type of nerf that impacted almost nothing at this point and was only going to be met with annoyance.
People absolutely have the right to provide feedback, but I do think that this playerbase is prone to being a little over dramatic and acting like every decision is some twisted scheme. It's a bug fix whether we like it or not
Idk man, maybe because it was easy to fix? They've been working on the ai stuff since last year and it's clearly a much more involved process than tweaking a line of code, the idea that they can't work on fixing smaller bugs that take literally less than a day to fix no matter how easy it is because there's other things going is just a little unreasonable
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
I never said it's something that needs to be held up. You're complaining that people are calling it a nerf and saying they're screwing over the playerbase, I'm explaining to you why that is. Has to do more with the fact that they're pissed at the Serpent situation than the bug fix itself, I can't even remember the last time I used KP for the aar myself so I don't really care.
Fun, I do wonder if the history of that word, how many time does it work, telling someone to calm down.
@WednesdayLength next time you are out and come face to face with someone angry, why don't you try saying that and see how affective it is.
The reason why this game have last 10 years, is down to one reason, the passion of the players (community) for this game (well that and addition).
That is why they will to drop thousands and thousands of their own money (hard earned money) into this game.
It create job, cashflow that pay for those at Kabam that making these decision ingame, like not rebalancing Serpent or neff Moleman or Kingpin (looking at Nick with trepidation).
The funny thing about passion it that is fuse love (for the game), but it is also the same fuse that cause anger.
So yeah, maybe we should all calm down, maybe we should all stop care, maybe we should stop spending, maybe we should all move on. Sure that will help the game grow and last for another 10 years.
Like I said there are worser thing than the users being angry at your decision, action and product. They can stop caring.
Anyway get this feeling that it is pointless discussing thing with you @WednesdayLength , so just gonna wish you a good day. I will get in with my day and not think about MCOC.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, I'm merely saying that complaining about a bug being fixed is absurd
I’d arguing that fixing a mechanic 3.5 years late while trying to convince us that a far more unbalanced champion is fair and on target eclipses the absurd you seem concerned about
Almost like they're handled by different teams all together?
That argument carries no weight. The amount of time where circumstances like this have occurred and the inability to coordinate has been exposed leaves me with no sympathy. They should know better after 10 years of running all this.
Oh so it's irrelevant just so you can continue to connect 2 events
English is a hard language, but his kit as it currently stands actually reads more like the effects are supposed to stack.
Let's take Onslaught, this is what is stated "While Organic Magnetism is active, this Special costs 33% less Power and is more likely to be activated." This is clearly worded, while Organic Magnetism is active, pass/fail, on or off.
The problem is the word "this" in Kingpin's current kit. "this" could refer to degeneration overall, but most would interpret "this" to be a reference to each stack of degen.
the ambiguity of including "this" degeneration is why no one would assume this wasn't working as intended.
I see that but I also think that "this" could be another way of saying the ability only triggers with his personal Degeneration. Degeneration is a very common ability for many champions and nodes so this was likely to prevent his ability from triggering due to other Degeneration effects.
For Onslaught, there's no need to use "this" or include the word "personal" because he's the only champion that uses Organic Magnetism (as of now). The way the ability is worded even covers if Organic Magnetism is either a Debuff or a Passive.
I believe that was intended, but there are also instances of champion descriptions including "personal effect" which is much clearer. Ultimately I can't fault the playerbase or Kabam for interpreting it differently, as the way it's written could easily imply either. The problem of course is that it was Kabam who wrote it in the first place.
I believe personal effects was only uses after kingpins buff. I could be wrong, but it seems that kinpins kit is essentially a first draft of saying personal degen effect without the term
It’s irrelevant because of repeating the same mistake over and over again loses credibility and sympathy for the ones that repeat the mistake.
And I could say the same thing about the playerbase continuously getting mad about things that aren't that big of an issue or applying malice to situations where it's not present.
This is a game, none of this matters, period. But people have the right to provide feedback on unpopular decisions.
And this is the type of nerf that really should be triaged carefully and not just acted on when it persisted for 3.5 YEARS… got if this was so consequential it would have been caught sooner.
Outside of the Serpent BS… is why are bug fixers spending time in stuff like this when there is a litany of fight wide issues that you’d think might be prioritized when every other thread there are complaints about missed inputs, strikers getting blocked, and AI misbehavior. This is the type of nerf that impacted almost nothing at this point and was only going to be met with annoyance.
People absolutely have the right to provide feedback, but I do think that this playerbase is prone to being a little over dramatic and acting like every decision is some twisted scheme. It's a bug fix whether we like it or not
Idk man, maybe because it was easy to fix? They've been working on the ai stuff since last year and it's clearly a much more involved process than tweaking a line of code, the idea that they can't work on fixing smaller bugs that take literally less than a day to fix no matter how easy it is because there's other things going is just a little unreasonable
I think you are being far too generous. And say you’re right, then part of the problem is the lack of a triage process with thought out criteria. Which after other patch note fixes/nerfs how is that reasonably possible?
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
Btw… where are you getting this level of detail and information?
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
Btw… where are you getting this level of detail and information?
@Emilia90 asked DLL and he said he's brought it up to the team twice already but it always gets "lost". I assume they're now making it a priority after seeing so many people complaining and DLL being asked about it lol funny but I guess something good came out of this whole situation in the end.
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
Btw… where are you getting this level of detail and information?
@Emilia90 asked DLL and he said he's brought it up to the team twice already but it always gets "lost". I assume they're now making it a priority after seeing so many people complaining and DLL being asked about it lol funny but I guess something good came out of this whole situation in the end.
Maybe we should ask about AI recovery times and skipped frames next then lol
Nerf means changing a champions intended kit because it's too strong, not fixing an unintended part of their kit to what it's supposed to be
Your explain of the definition is completely correct. However here it is with context in this situation.
Kabam - We found something that not working as it should with King Pin, we fix it
Players/Community - We do not have inside knowledge of how Kabam want a champion to work. All we have are information written on the Champ description and how they have been working during their time in the game (in this case 3.5 years). However anyone perpective of how King Pin abilities description is, I'm sure we can all agreed that is is not clear enough for players to know.
Kabam stated before King Pin would be too strong and hard to consider as a 7*
So in the players perpective it is a Nerf.
From my previous posts, I have intention never used the word Nerf, I used change or "fix", however since I have explained why, I will be using the word Nerf, because I believe from the players side, it is a Nerf.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental,
I do agreed with you that two things (Serpent not being Rebalances and King Pin nerf) are just bad time (this is something I pointed out in my previous post).
However it is still not an acceptable excuse, similar thing has happened before, when "fix"/change were done to champions and players wasn't inform until it is out (I think Shocker might be one of those situation, but I don't remember exactly for sure), and the explanation was, one department did something and the community management wasn't being info, so the information got lost.
The excuse the department doesn't talk to each other (which have happened repeatedly), not an acceptable reasoning, only show that the company is poor managed and staffs are over work. None of that is acceptable.
acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
Actually customer management is one of the most important part of any business, as well as cashflow and the well being of your staffs.
It doesn't matter how good your product/service is, if you treat you customer poorly then they will leave, and there wouldn't be any business left. This doesn't mean that company have to do everything the customer demands, but when a large group of your customers expressed their disappointment and explained clearly why, then it might be in the company interest to review those decision made.
So yes, knowing when to do thing and how best to approach it so that it would lessen whatever impact it to have to current balance is extremely important.
Again I not blaming the individual department itself, but the company, thing like this give the impression Kabam think very little of their players, their customers.
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
While I do think that Kabam recent increase in their business strategy is a bit too aggressive (OP Def and counter), we all understand Kabam strategy of create a "challenge" and sell the solution, but they might have lost the balance with Serpent. I do agreed with you and I also don't believe that Kabam does these things in the "malice" kind of way, because it is stupid for the company to be intentionally being malice to their customers.
However, the lack of information from Kabam, and the repeat track records of some bad decision making and thing just not flow as it should (and since you been here since the start I'm sure you would of seen it too). That just corroded the players confident and trust in Kabam away.
For example something like this, a bug that been reported consistently and even been remind from internal staffs, and not only it is still not fix, but Kabam also put no effort into keeping the players info, even a simple "we are looking to this, it is hard to fix, and will take more time"
While at the same time, based on what you said, King Pin was fixed with in 24hrs.
King Pin "fix"/change/nerf hurt the players Galan bug not fix hurt the players.
From this we can understand why the players might feel the way they feel.
For the record, I do thing that King Pin fix should NOT have been done, again this is back to what I said before, he have been like that for 3.5 year, the game still work and grow, so clearly it is not something that is game breaking.
We have seen before when Kabam would change description in a champions abilities instead of change the champ abilities themself.
I do think that the decision to make this change on King Pin was a bad decision with or without the Serpent situation (but I do accept that is just my opinion).
With all of the of the above (and many more) we can understand why players might feel the way they feel, and react/responses they way they do.
I think it is important see the full picture in order to find the right solution, simply disregards players feedback as childish or overreacting or lack of understand, just make them feel that they have not hear and understood and themselves being disregarded. No one want to spend when they feel like that.
As mentioned before, there is a reason why MCOC have last 10 years and why being one of the largest income for Netmarble, it is the passionate and loyal (with some might have addiction personality 🤣), as well as a strong and live IP, and the great product Kabam and the team have created.
But I do think that Kabam need to invest (and take into consideration more) of their relationship their customer/players/community, rebuild trust again.
Again I said in my previous post while 2023 had it problem, it was actually heading to the right direct and Kabam actually acknowledged that they need to communicate and have a better 2 ways dialogue with the community, and it started to happening. 2024 have seen a u turn and the lost of staffs.
I really do hope Netmarble review this better and invest more into their best and (I assume) most profitable product.
P.S, @WednesdayLength , I did try to look through and respond to your comments and points, but if I have missed out any that you want me to respond to let me know.
Anyway hope you have a good Sunday and a good week ahead. 😊
I just thought maybe we having a proper civil discussion about this, hopefully we get somewhere and see each other points of view:-
Congrats @Fryday , this may very well be the most well put explanation of a point of view I have ever seen, I honestly agree with everything you said and I do think that the playerbase can sometimes get too agressive in certain situation and misdirect their feelings towards someone like DLL who doesn't have anything to do with most of the stuff he gets attacked for, his only fault being that he is one of the few employees that actually communicates openly (much like miike did). So as a community we shouldn't stop caring or calm down but we should instead learn how to better communicate our feelings, because us and kabam both, even though sometimes it's not easy to see it, all care about the game and its health.
Demonzfyre, GW, Colinwhitworth you guys can welcome the newest member to the white knight council! It's official.
Sorry I forgot that disagreeing with the majority makes me a white Knight.
I think serpent should have been nerfed, I think it's weird that he wasn't, but I also think that the Kingpin bug was a bug and is not a nerf just because people liked it
The Galan bug has been there for years too, why haven't they fixed that? Is it because it would indirectly buff a champ that was already considered top of the cosmic class or how does that work?
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
Can't blame people for thinking it is when their decisions when it comes to kits haven't exactly been the best lately.
Idk, I've been here since launch and I think the community are as prone to overreacting as they say Kabam are for being shady. I don't agree with everything they do and I point out when I don't, I've just been here long enough to know that most people complaining about the Kingpin fix probably never even placed more than 1 degen with him to begin with.
I'm unsure as to how the data on serpent could suggest he's anything but overtuned, and I also believe that Kingpins place in the contest will be near identical after the patch as it is now. Serpent is genuinely the only decision they've made regarding kits that is actually egregious, as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on ntw and Sable.
Yknow I'll go as far as to say I've been having s bad day and probably went s little too hard and I genuinely apologise for probably being a bit of a pest, I just disagree with the idea that me not agreeing with the community makes me a shill or a white knight anymore than everyone piling on Kabam for every decision means they're looking to dog pile
Yes but the difference is they literally just announced no changes for Serpent and on top of that they do this to KP after the bug's been there for three years. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't assume anything like that either but because of the Serpent situation it does feel that way.
I called you a white knight earlier cause I saw you making some comments on the Serpent situation and assumed you were also against pretty much 90% of the community on that particular matter. If that's not the case then fair enough, I take it back. All I'm saying is this was the wrong time to do what they did to KP, they know the playerbase is pissed right now, of course doing this would only feed the flame even if that wasn't their intention.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental, acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
I didn't say not deal with it at all, I'm simply saying they should've thought about the timing and left it for later and instead fixed Galan's bug which has not only been reported by multiple forum members but DLL himself, twice. Nobody even knew this whole KP thing was a bug cause it was never explicitly stated in his kit whereas Galan's incinerate are explicitly stated in his kit and haven't been fixed for two years now. If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
You keep talking about timing as if that is done sacred thing that needs to be held up when it's simply not. Sure, the timing is a little unfortunate, but when its someone's job to fix bugs and the find a bug and fix it likely because it's very simple to fix its just weird to be focusing on the idea of timing.
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
Btw… where are you getting this level of detail and information?
Nerf means changing a champions intended kit because it's too strong, not fixing an unintended part of their kit to what it's supposed to be
Your explain of the definition is completely correct. However here it is with context in this situation.
Kabam - We found something that not working as it should with King Pin, we fix it
Players/Community - We do not have inside knowledge of how Kabam want a champion to work. All we have are information written on the Champ description and how they have been working during their time in the game (in this case 3.5 years). However anyone perpective of how King Pin abilities description is, I'm sure we can all agreed that is is not clear enough for players to know.
Kabam stated before King Pin would be too strong and hard to consider as a 7*
So in the players perpective it is a Nerf.
From my previous posts, I have intention never used the word Nerf, I used change or "fix", however since I have explained why, I will be using the word Nerf, because I believe from the players side, it is a Nerf.
The timing of these 2 things was entirely coincidental,
I do agreed with you that two things (Serpent not being Rebalances and King Pin nerf) are just bad time (this is something I pointed out in my previous post).
However it is still not an acceptable excuse, similar thing has happened before, when "fix"/change were done to champions and players wasn't inform until it is out (I think Shocker might be one of those situation, but I don't remember exactly for sure), and the explanation was, one department did something and the community management wasn't being info, so the information got lost.
The excuse the department doesn't talk to each other (which have happened repeatedly), not an acceptable reasoning, only show that the company is poor managed and staffs are over work. None of that is acceptable.
acting like they should have left a bug in place and not dealt with it because of a change decided by an entirely separate team that the playerbase probably wouldn't react well to is honestly just a little childish.
Actually customer management is one of the most important part of any business, as well as cashflow and the well being of your staffs.
It doesn't matter how good your product/service is, if you treat you customer poorly then they will leave, and there wouldn't be any business left. This doesn't mean that company have to do everything the customer demands, but when a large group of your customers expressed their disappointment and explained clearly why, then it might be in the company interest to review those decision made.
So yes, knowing when to do thing and how best to approach it so that it would lessen whatever impact it to have to current balance is extremely important.
Again I not blaming the individual department itself, but the company, thing like this give the impression Kabam think very little of their players, their customers.
There's plenty of more likely options beyond the malice and scheming people want to believe it is
While I do think that Kabam recent increase in their business strategy is a bit too aggressive (OP Def and counter), we all understand Kabam strategy of create a "challenge" and sell the solution, but they might have lost the balance with Serpent. I do agreed with you and I also don't believe that Kabam does these things in the "malice" kind of way, because it is stupid for the company to be intentionally being malice to their customers.
However, the lack of information from Kabam, and the repeat track records of some bad decision making and thing just not flow as it should (and since you been here since the start I'm sure you would of seen it too). That just corroded the players confident and trust in Kabam away.
For example something like this, a bug that been reported consistently and even been remind from internal staffs, and not only it is still not fix, but Kabam also put no effort into keeping the players info, even a simple "we are looking to this, it is hard to fix, and will take more time"
While at the same time, based on what you said, King Pin was fixed with in 24hrs.
King Pin "fix"/change/nerf hurt the players Galan bug not fix hurt the players.
From this we can understand why the players might feel the way they feel.
For the record, I do thing that King Pin fix should NOT have been done, again this is back to what I said before, he have been like that for 3.5 year, the game still work and grow, so clearly it is not something that is game breaking.
We have seen before when Kabam would change description in a champions abilities instead of change the champ abilities themself.
I do think that the decision to make this change on King Pin was a bad decision with or without the Serpent situation (but I do accept that is just my opinion).
With all of the of the above (and many more) we can understand why players might feel the way they feel, and react/responses they way they do.
I think it is important see the full picture in order to find the right solution, simply disregards players feedback as childish or overreacting or lack of understand, just make them feel that they have not hear and understood and themselves being disregarded. No one want to spend when they feel like that.
As mentioned before, there is a reason why MCOC have last 10 years and why being one of the largest income for Netmarble, it is the passionate and loyal (with some might have addiction personality 🤣), as well as a strong and live IP, and the great product Kabam and the team have created.
But I do think that Kabam need to invest (and take into consideration more) of their relationship their customer/players/community, rebuild trust again.
Again I said in my previous post while 2023 had it problem, it was actually heading to the right direct and Kabam actually acknowledged that they need to communicate and have a better 2 ways dialogue with the community, and it started to happening. 2024 have seen a u turn and the lost of staffs.
I really do hope Netmarble review this better and invest more into their best and (I assume) most profitable product.
P.S, @WednesdayLength , I did try to look through and respond to your comments and points, but if I have missed out any that you want me to respond to let me know.
Anyway hope you have a good Sunday and a good week ahead. 😊
Appreciate the thought out response, will do my best to reply in depth.
Kingpin is an interesting case in that yes, I could see how his original wording found be read in the way that people assumed it would given it was bugged, but I also think it's closer to stating it won't stack personally. I don't think I'll ever agree that it's a nerf in the context of this game, I'm sure others disagree with that but hey that's life, but I do think it's hard to look at this in comparison to other similar changes. Mole Man was obviously not working right, shocker never stated that his damage bypassed glancing and zemo was an issue with root itself not with his kit.
I generally agree that community management is an important part of building a game, I can also see that Kabam haven't always been the greatest in this regard, my argument stems mostly from the fact that I think the community is pretty quick to ignore how unreasonable they can be at times also. There's a lot of valid criticism to be made at Kabam, serpent I think is something that's worth talking about, I will never back down from the fact that I think the community does err on being a little entitled and overly vitriolic at times. I know that's not a popular thing to say, but that's my perception as someone that's been playing the game since launch.
When mole man's bug was announced to be fixed, the overwhelming response was people saying they should just leave it as it was, despite it not being the intended way to play his kit, and while I can understand why people would be upset that a bug that made a champion slightly stronger was getting fixed, I think it's just evidence of how ready to feel wronged the community is a lot of the time. I agree that ensuring your community is happy is a good thing, a lot of people interpret that as "don't ever do anything that could possibly annoy the players" which considering the sort of stuff that annoys some of this community is an incredibly broad scope. Again, I'm not saying there's nothing to criticise them for, but I think we'd be lying if we acted like this community isn't constantly waiting to get the pitchforks out and start dog piling.
This Kingpin issue has been in the game since his buff but has only just been noticed by Kabam due to new eyes looking over champions, it was then fixed because fixing bugs like that is a part of someone's job. I've been playing Kingpin since his buff and never even realised that his daar could stack, I never even tried to stack the degen because it read as though it wouldn't do anything. I'm aware that's not everyone's experience but that's mine for whatever that's worth, so yeah I think it's reasonable to believe that Kabam assumed the kit worked the way they intended it and the playerbase assumed it worked the way they interpreted it and it was never raised earlier because of this. I'm sure there's issues to iron out there, It's a unique situation in how it played out compared to other bug fixes imo and there's room for improvement, but I don't think that warrants the level of conspiracy that people have around why it has happened now. A lot of people unironically think this is because he could have been a Serpent counter and they don't want that, so forgive me if I push back a little at these depictions of kabam as evil masterminds that have been planning this for years when time has consistently shown that this type of thing doesn't in fact make people spend more on revives.
Idk if I'm losing my point, all I'm trying to say is that I think the playerbase is generally a little stubborn about what they perceive a situation to be and it often results in the mindset that you either believe that this was all an orchestrated plan or your a kabam shill white knight and I don't think that leads to good discussion. I agree the situation could have been handled better, but realistically I'm not sure what that would be because as dll stated on stream yesterday, if they announced they were going to be changing it in a month it would just mean that people are gonna be mad about it for a month lmao. Regardless of how him having that level of daar actually affects the game, it's not up to the playerbase to decide if it should be kept or not, and from kabams perspective it's a bug that needed to be fixed. I get the annoyance and I can even understand how the timing of the Serpent issue could make it seem worse in comparison, but I simply think it's unreasonable to say that this bug should have been fixed at a different time just to placate a playerbase that I would say has a pretty consistent streak of being kinda belligerent 🤷
Idk, I probably still sound as Snobby as everyone thinks I am, maybe I am. I think it's a messy situation all around, I just disagree with most people that kabam are the only ones that have handled the situation badly, I'm probably included in that cause evidently I also get stubborn. I'm not gonna saying else about this cause evidently the sense of standing by point is not worth the day of taking replies very personally lol, but I stand by everything I said. Maybe there is a better way of handling the situation, there probably is, but that doesn't wipe out the long standing entitlement of the playerbase who actively ignore every positive change the game makes and focuses on a few specific changes that they misrepresent.
Nerf Serpent idk, have a better weekend than I'm having lol
I find this to be a conveniently revisionist take of these shadow nerfs that got caught by the player base. Call them fixes all you want but in each instance a champion was made less effective than they previously were with inadequate communication. The fact that this repeatedly has happened more than justifies player disappointment and outrage. Just like any customer would be if they purchased one thing and without warning given something else.
I find this to be a conveniently revisionist take of these shadow nerfs that got caught by the player base. Call them fixes all you want but in each instance a champion was made less effective than they previously were with inadequate communication. The fact that this repeatedly has happened more than justifies player disappointment and outrage. Just like any customer would be if they purchased one thing and without warning given something else.
.....you are aware they fix these types of things monthly and are usually part of the bug fix list for the update info? Everyone is just paying more attention to this specific time because they're unhappy serpent isn't being balanced.
I find this to be a conveniently revisionist take of these shadow nerfs that got caught by the player base. Call them fixes all you want but in each instance a champion was made less effective than they previously were with inadequate communication. The fact that this repeatedly has happened more than justifies player disappointment and outrage. Just like any customer would be if they purchased one thing and without warning given something else.
They were given warning in a lot of cases, and in others like Shocker there was no indication that he should work the way he was. Talk about revisionist history all you want but you can't also do the same in the opposite direction
Kingpin wasn’t nerfed. He was fixed. His ISO-8 Debuff wasn’t functioning as his abilities stated, allowing for his AAR to stack beyond -65%.
To quote his abilities, “While this Degeneration is active, the opponent suffers -50% Attack Rating and -65% Defensive Ability Accuracy.”
I’ll refer you to the MoleMan “bug fix”. As to why this is a bad take.
That is not “a take”, which implies an opinion on a set of facts when in fact this is someone quoting the facts. You don’t have to like facts but they are what they are.
In this case I agree that it is a bad change, considering that everyone is used to him as he was and he was not breaking anything. Would have been better to enshrine his bug.
Kingpin wasn’t nerfed. He was fixed. His ISO-8 Debuff wasn’t functioning as his abilities stated, allowing for his AAR to stack beyond -65%.
To quote his abilities, “While this Degeneration is active, the opponent suffers -50% Attack Rating and -65% Defensive Ability Accuracy.”
I’ll refer you to the MoleMan “bug fix”. As to why this is a bad take.
That is not “a take”, which implies an opinion on a set of facts when in fact this is someone quoting the facts. You don’t have to like facts but they are what they are.
In this case I agree that it is a bad change, considering that everyone is used to him as he was and he was not breaking anything. Would have been better to enshrine his bug.
Molemans issue was clearly a bug but it took so long for them to acknowledge it which is the issue
Kingpin wasn’t nerfed. He was fixed. His ISO-8 Debuff wasn’t functioning as his abilities stated, allowing for his AAR to stack beyond -65%.
To quote his abilities, “While this Degeneration is active, the opponent suffers -50% Attack Rating and -65% Defensive Ability Accuracy.”
I’ll refer you to the MoleMan “bug fix”. As to why this is a bad take.
That is not “a take”, which implies an opinion on a set of facts when in fact this is someone quoting the facts. You don’t have to like facts but they are what they are.
In this case I agree that it is a bad change, considering that everyone is used to him as he was and he was not breaking anything. Would have been better to enshrine his bug.
Bug or not, a champion being allowed to exist in a capacity for an extended period of time and even known to have this capability throughout the community, requires far better communication and warning than patch notes. Shocker and MoleMan nerf/fixes demonstrates that it is bad customer management. That’s why I called it a bad take, to call it a simple bug fix in the patch notes and move on really needs to stop.
I’m growing to find this use of bug fixing to be eye opening, when coupled with known bugs that are allowed to persist, or systemic wide bugs that never seem to get better. Using resources on these type of minor and long standing issues demonstrate a lack of care on the issues that actually impact the player experience.
Comments
It was discovered because a new bug fixer had just taken over and noticed it, it's not like there was anything in game that visually identified the stacking daar and it just appears as if you're getting lucky with the 65% reduction of things aren't triggering, I'm not denying that the timing is a little unfortunate if you're focusing on it, I just think it's a little ridiculous to act like they should have not fixed this bug in anticipation of player backlash over an entirely separate decision. That's the kind of thinking that makes the playerbase come off as entitled
It’s been there for how long and has been affecting what?
You have major fallout for a not change that the players/users aren’t happy with, then at the same time introduce a change that’s going to piss them off even further?
Agree with you. Definitely weird timing.
If you don't understand why this was bad timing I don't know what to tell you, might be childish but it's also common sense.
And this is the type of nerf that really should be triaged carefully and not just acted on when it persisted for 3.5 YEARS… got if this was so consequential it would have been caught sooner.
Outside of the Serpent BS… is why are bug fixers spending time in stuff like this when there is a litany of fight wide issues that you’d think might be prioritized when every other thread there are complaints about missed inputs, strikers getting blocked, and AI misbehavior. This is the type of nerf that impacted almost nothing at this point and was only going to be met with annoyance.
There is no defense of trello that is rational or meaningful. It was a failure when it was first launched and it remains a failure.
Idk man, maybe because it was easy to fix? They've been working on the ai stuff since last year and it's clearly a much more involved process than tweaking a line of code, the idea that they can't work on fixing smaller bugs that take literally less than a day to fix no matter how easy it is because there's other things going is just a little unreasonable
The Galan bug is being pushed as we speak. They know what the cause of the issue is, it's just more involved to fix and it got lost somewhere along the way between employee changeover. I'm not defending that, I'm merely saying that there are humans that work on these things and that's what happened. Buffs aren't 1 to 1 across the board
I just thought maybe we having a proper civil discussion about this, hopefully we get somewhere and see each other points of view:- Your explain of the definition is completely correct. However here it is with context in this situation.
Kabam - We found something that not working as it should with King Pin, we fix it
Players/Community - We do not have inside knowledge of how Kabam want a champion to work. All we have are information written on the Champ description and how they have been working during their time in the game (in this case 3.5 years). However anyone perpective of how King Pin abilities description is, I'm sure we can all agreed that is is not clear enough for players to know.
Kabam stated before King Pin would be too strong and hard to consider as a 7*
So in the players perpective it is a Nerf.
From my previous posts, I have intention never used the word Nerf, I used change or "fix", however since I have explained why, I will be using the word Nerf, because I believe from the players side, it is a Nerf. I do agreed with you that two things (Serpent not being Rebalances and King Pin nerf) are just bad time (this is something I pointed out in my previous post).
However it is still not an acceptable excuse, similar thing has happened before, when "fix"/change were done to champions and players wasn't inform until it is out (I think Shocker might be one of those situation, but I don't remember exactly for sure), and the explanation was, one department did something and the community management wasn't being info, so the information got lost.
The excuse the department doesn't talk to each other (which have happened repeatedly), not an acceptable reasoning, only show that the company is poor managed and staffs are over work. None of that is acceptable.
Actually customer management is one of the most important part of any business, as well as cashflow and the well being of your staffs.
It doesn't matter how good your product/service is, if you treat you customer poorly then they will leave, and there wouldn't be any business left. This doesn't mean that company have to do everything the customer demands, but when a large group of your customers expressed their disappointment and explained clearly why, then it might be in the company interest to review those decision made.
So yes, knowing when to do thing and how best to approach it so that it would lessen whatever impact it to have to current balance is extremely important.
Again I not blaming the individual department itself, but the company, thing like this give the impression Kabam think very little of their players, their customers.
No customer, not cashflow, no company. While I do think that Kabam recent increase in their business strategy is a bit too aggressive (OP Def and counter), we all understand Kabam strategy of create a "challenge" and sell the solution, but they might have lost the balance with Serpent. I do agreed with you and I also don't believe that Kabam does these things in the "malice" kind of way, because it is stupid for the company to be intentionally being malice to their customers.
However, the lack of information from Kabam, and the repeat track records of some bad decision making and thing just not flow as it should (and since you been here since the start I'm sure you would of seen it too). That just corroded the players confident and trust in Kabam away.
For example something like this, a bug that been reported consistently and even been remind from internal staffs, and not only it is still not fix, but Kabam also put no effort into keeping the players info, even a simple "we are looking to this, it is hard to fix, and will take more time"
While at the same time, based on what you said, King Pin was fixed with in 24hrs.
King Pin "fix"/change/nerf hurt the players
Galan bug not fix hurt the players.
From this we can understand why the players might feel the way they feel.
For the record, I do thing that King Pin fix should NOT have been done, again this is back to what I said before, he have been like that for 3.5 year, the game still work and grow, so clearly it is not something that is game breaking.
We have seen before when Kabam would change description in a champions abilities instead of change the champ abilities themself.
I do think that the decision to make this change on King Pin was a bad decision with or without the Serpent situation (but I do accept that is just my opinion).
With all of the of the above (and many more) we can understand why players might feel the way they feel, and react/responses they way they do.
I think it is important see the full picture in order to find the right solution, simply disregards players feedback as childish or overreacting or lack of understand, just make them feel that they have not hear and understood and themselves being disregarded. No one want to spend when they feel like that.
As mentioned before, there is a reason why MCOC have last 10 years and why being one of the largest income for Netmarble, it is the passionate and loyal (with some might have addiction personality 🤣), as well as a strong and live IP, and the great product Kabam and the team have created.
But I do think that Kabam need to invest (and take into consideration more) of their relationship their customer/players/community, rebuild trust again.
Again I said in my previous post while 2023 had it problem, it was actually heading to the right direct and Kabam actually acknowledged that they need to communicate and have a better 2 ways dialogue with the community, and it started to happening. 2024 have seen a u turn and the lost of staffs.
I really do hope Netmarble review this better and invest more into their best and (I assume) most profitable product.
P.S, @WednesdayLength , I did try to look through and respond to your comments and points, but if I have missed out any that you want me to respond to let me know.
Anyway hope you have a good Sunday and a good week ahead. 😊
Thanks again op for the amazing post
Kingpin is an interesting case in that yes, I could see how his original wording found be read in the way that people assumed it would given it was bugged, but I also think it's closer to stating it won't stack personally. I don't think I'll ever agree that it's a nerf in the context of this game, I'm sure others disagree with that but hey that's life, but I do think it's hard to look at this in comparison to other similar changes. Mole Man was obviously not working right, shocker never stated that his damage bypassed glancing and zemo was an issue with root itself not with his kit.
I generally agree that community management is an important part of building a game, I can also see that Kabam haven't always been the greatest in this regard, my argument stems mostly from the fact that I think the community is pretty quick to ignore how unreasonable they can be at times also. There's a lot of valid criticism to be made at Kabam, serpent I think is something that's worth talking about, I will never back down from the fact that I think the community does err on being a little entitled and overly vitriolic at times. I know that's not a popular thing to say, but that's my perception as someone that's been playing the game since launch.
When mole man's bug was announced to be fixed, the overwhelming response was people saying they should just leave it as it was, despite it not being the intended way to play his kit, and while I can understand why people would be upset that a bug that made a champion slightly stronger was getting fixed, I think it's just evidence of how ready to feel wronged the community is a lot of the time. I agree that ensuring your community is happy is a good thing, a lot of people interpret that as "don't ever do anything that could possibly annoy the players" which considering the sort of stuff that annoys some of this community is an incredibly broad scope. Again, I'm not saying there's nothing to criticise them for, but I think we'd be lying if we acted like this community isn't constantly waiting to get the pitchforks out and start dog piling.
This Kingpin issue has been in the game since his buff but has only just been noticed by Kabam due to new eyes looking over champions, it was then fixed because fixing bugs like that is a part of someone's job. I've been playing Kingpin since his buff and never even realised that his daar could stack, I never even tried to stack the degen because it read as though it wouldn't do anything. I'm aware that's not everyone's experience but that's mine for whatever that's worth, so yeah I think it's reasonable to believe that Kabam assumed the kit worked the way they intended it and the playerbase assumed it worked the way they interpreted it and it was never raised earlier because of this. I'm sure there's issues to iron out there, It's a unique situation in how it played out compared to other bug fixes imo and there's room for improvement, but I don't think that warrants the level of conspiracy that people have around why it has happened now. A lot of people unironically think this is because he could have been a Serpent counter and they don't want that, so forgive me if I push back a little at these depictions of kabam as evil masterminds that have been planning this for years when time has consistently shown that this type of thing doesn't in fact make people spend more on revives.
Idk if I'm losing my point, all I'm trying to say is that I think the playerbase is generally a little stubborn about what they perceive a situation to be and it often results in the mindset that you either believe that this was all an orchestrated plan or your a kabam shill white knight and I don't think that leads to good discussion. I agree the situation could have been handled better, but realistically I'm not sure what that would be because as dll stated on stream yesterday, if they announced they were going to be changing it in a month it would just mean that people are gonna be mad about it for a month lmao. Regardless of how him having that level of daar actually affects the game, it's not up to the playerbase to decide if it should be kept or not, and from kabams perspective it's a bug that needed to be fixed. I get the annoyance and I can even understand how the timing of the Serpent issue could make it seem worse in comparison, but I simply think it's unreasonable to say that this bug should have been fixed at a different time just to placate a playerbase that I would say has a pretty consistent streak of being kinda belligerent 🤷
Idk, I probably still sound as Snobby as everyone thinks I am, maybe I am. I think it's a messy situation all around, I just disagree with most people that kabam are the only ones that have handled the situation badly, I'm probably included in that cause evidently I also get stubborn. I'm not gonna saying else about this cause evidently the sense of standing by point is not worth the day of taking replies very personally lol, but I stand by everything I said. Maybe there is a better way of handling the situation, there probably is, but that doesn't wipe out the long standing entitlement of the playerbase who actively ignore every positive change the game makes and focuses on a few specific changes that they misrepresent.
Nerf Serpent idk, have a better weekend than I'm having lol
In this case I agree that it is a bad change, considering that everyone is used to him as he was and he was not breaking anything. Would have been better to enshrine his bug.
I’m growing to find this use of bug fixing to be eye opening, when coupled with known bugs that are allowed to persist, or systemic wide bugs that never seem to get better. Using resources on these type of minor and long standing issues demonstrate a lack of care on the issues that actually impact the player experience.
A little yes...haha