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Analysis of AW Season 1: Tier vs Bracket

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Comments

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    If Allies are earning their Rating by playing fairly, they deserve to be in the Tier they're in. They earn their Rewards. It doesn't matter if an 8 Mil is in the same Tier as a 3 Mil. If both Allies earned their right to be there, it's fair. War Rating is based on cumulative Wins and/or Losses. There is no way of stopping people from starting a lower-Rated Ally and playing in a smaller Ally. I'm not sure if you're concerned about the system or personally offended that both Allies are at the same stage, but the bottom line is the War Rating reflects the skill in War. Not the Ally Rating. I can assure you if a 3 Mil Ally wins enough times, they will meet a 10 Mil Ally. Based on how they do, they will either win or lose, and that's fair because they have earned their Rating to Match them. I think you're either investing too much pride into the Ally Rating, or wearing too many hats. Lol. Either way, I don't agree that the system is unfair. Skill is reflected in how well they do, not what their Rating is. You can't say an 8 Mil Win is worth more than a 3 Mil Win because that all depends on how they've earned that Win. It's not by default. They don't stumble on the Rating, unless they're hopping and using a pre-existing Rating, in which case they won't maintain it unless they have the skills regardless. I'm sorry, but there is nothing stopping Allies of lower Ratings from working their way up the Tiers. That's fair.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    edited April 2018
    No an 8mil win is not worth more than an 3mil win....

    But.....

    If a 3 mil ally can get to tier 5 only facing 3 mil allies does that show it is better than an 8mil ally that can only male it to tier 7 facing 8mil allies????
    I think not.....

    If both allies folowed the same road the ally with the higher war rating will have proved itself better.

    But atm they are on different roads...

    When you are weak and can only complete heroic difficuly you get one set of rewards....
    Once you get stronger and can do master you get greater rewards....
    Once you progress more you get uncollected and get more rewards....

    However in war atm as lower weak ally its like you are competig against heroic but getting master difficulty rewards.....
    While a stronger ally is competing at master difficulty but getting only heroic rewards....

    Eventually the weak may face a really strong opponent but meanwhile it has been on the easy road getting rewards easier...

    I am sorry but if an ally cant beat mine it doesnt deserve to be above me.....
    My 3mil ally could not beat my 8mil ally and therefore does not deserve to be above me...

    Hardly seems fair....
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    . I can assure you if a 3 Mil Ally wins enough times, they will meet a 10 Mil Ally..

    Can you prove that?
    I have provided evidence that contradicts that so far.
    I have provided evidence to support my claim.
    I disagree.
    Saying that it happened in the past is not good enough.
    My claim
    Is that matchmaking has changed and is now unfair.
    I will only believe you once i see proof.

    And even if they do once season about all the wins amd season points along the way?? If they faced 2-5mil allies along the way to tier 4 and won 12 wars before this happened they already a big step infront of the stronger ally who has won 1 lost one or even won 2 lost one down much lower due to multiplier.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,893 ★★★★
    another thread of someone trying to convince gw that there is a problem, look at 3/4 of the threads in this forum, they are the same thing, he never changes his stance maat, yes it’s clearly exploitable and probably the reason kabam have kept it quiet, until this thread very few people realised, your bubble analogy was good maat, i agree with DNA this is probably because of the people who complained in forums about unfair matchups against much higher ranked alliances, when they had earnt their way their to fight them. Probably by spending and punching above their weight, and in my opinion it was time for them to be beaten and settle to where they actually belong. Personally I think the war rating only metric was the fairest in the game but it definitely caused a few complaints, I don’t think there is a better or fairer option, with this coming to light I think personally the current system is less fair, but that is my opinion. gw I’m confused you say you have fought alliances with 2-3 times your war rating? I didn’t think that was possible with the current system, as DNA said kabam have changed the metrics several times and so selling your 2/3*s may advantage you now, but maybe a bad idea in tHe long run
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    edited April 2018
    @Speeds80 i agree with everything you say there....

    It maybe possible to fight much stronger allies up in top tiers where there is such a small pool of alliances fighting for matchups. Small allies couldnt survive up here.
    But would not happen every time.
    My alliance struggles against spenders because we dont spend much.
    My 8 mil ally “could” compete against a 20mil ally if we spent alot.... but we never will...

    War rating only allies will naturally fall into place with other evenly matched opponents....
    It will take a while for the current “bubbles” to dissolve and everything to fall as it should.
    But kabam need to do something here
    @Kabam Miike
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,893 ★★★★
    Gw plays in a lower tier maat, he’s In a very relaxed alliance, I’ve got nothing against the guy and his opinions, he knows the game quite well I’m just saying don’t waste your energy arguing with him as he never ever changes his stance. His position is clear, he likes the fact you can’t face an alliance 3 times your size, my personal opinion is if you get there you’ve earnt it.
    his comments on it being more to do with average rating than alliance rating probably come from his alliance not being full at times, so for example if his alliance only has 20 people in at the time, and his alliance is 5m (purely fictional example) I’m assuming he means sees matchups in outliers that he doesn’t see when facing opponents with a similar number of members, so for example he fights a 9m alliance with 30 people, so their alliance rating is 80% higher but their average rating is only 20% different. (Again all just numbers for easy examples) and this is what I assume he is saying, I just wonder if the 2-3 times war rating examples are recent or before this current system. As it has clearly changed several times. My alliance is an upper/middle of the road 12m alliance 1500 war rating and we don’t seem to face anyone less than 10 or more than 14, but I guess there are a lot of alliances in that kind of region. Thanks DNA for your work, great as usual, my alliance ran 2 wargroups last season and finished near the middle of gold 2, (3 groups when aq wasn’t running ) we have figured with similar wins/ losses as last season but 3 groups we should make it into gold 1, currently in tier 7 though so this makes me think we need to hit tier 6 before season starts to have a better chance of this, it looks like it will be close and it does make me think that the tiers are too big, if we can run 2 groups and not use many items at all and finish in gold 2 easily, it seems like a lot more effort to only just make it out of the bracket/ possibly fail
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    @Speeds80 thanks for that info.... ur experiemce certainly matches mine.....
    Both my allies ran 3 bgs last season and both of us finished gold 3....
    My 8mil at 168 amd my 3mil at around 1400.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    edited April 2018
    Speeds80 wrote: »
    another thread of someone trying to convince gw that there is a problem, look at 3/4 of the threads in this forum, they are the same thing, he never changes his stance maat, yes it’s clearly exploitable and probably the reason kabam have kept it quiet, until this thread very few people realised, your bubble analogy was good maat, i agree with DNA this is probably because of the people who complained in forums about unfair matchups against much higher ranked alliances, when they had earnt their way their to fight them. Probably by spending and punching above their weight, and in my opinion it was time for them to be beaten and settle to where they actually belong. Personally I think the war rating only metric was the fairest in the game but it definitely caused a few complaints, I don’t think there is a better or fairer option, with this coming to light I think personally the current system is less fair, but that is my opinion. gw I’m confused you say you have fought alliances with 2-3 times your war rating? I didn’t think that was possible with the current system, as DNA said kabam have changed the metrics several times and so selling your 2/3*s may advantage you now, but maybe a bad idea in tHe long run

    I don't sell Champs. I've fought Allies larger than ours, yes. Fair is fair. If an Ally fights and wins, they've earned their Rating and Rewards, plain as simple. The real issue is people take offense to the fact that smaller Allies could be in the same Bracket, but they wouldn't be had they not earned it.
    On a personal note, we fight hard. The Wins we pull in are earned fairly with organization and teamwork. Do we win everytime? No. However, if anyone implies we are punching above our weight, they are wrong. We put the work in for our Wins.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,893 ★★★★
    Did they just delete my second comment? I can’t see it anymore
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    Irregardless, I've said what I had to say and I'm not interested in another semi-personal banter. I disagree that the system is broken or unfair. That is my stance.
  • Speeds80Speeds80 Posts: 1,893 ★★★★
    No I completely agree with what you’ve said there gw, I actually think it’s fairer for small alliances to be able to fight much stronger alliances if they have earnt their way there, and the problem is that they then complain at how much stronger their opponent is, and this is what I believe has lead to this somewhat exploitable situation (if this theory is true) if kabam are using prestige as the factor instead of alliance rating that would be fairer but the fact I haven’t seen what I used to see (7m alliances with better prestige than mine because they have all sold champs makes me think alliance rating maybe being used now)

    if their War ratings are similar then they both deserve to be there as the high numbered alliance obviously hasn’t been doing well, and the smaller alliance has been doing well, and may have actually got to a place where they need to lose a few and settle where they should be, but I feel like we are well off topic as this matchmaking criteria should probably be in its own thread. now anyway, I think the point that probably should be being discussed are whether there should be more tiers in the gold categories,
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    edited April 2018
    The point I'm making is it's impossible to have a system that is based on War Rating and Ally Rating indefinitely. It may be that an element is at play that tries to Match in the same Ally range, or it may be that this is the result of increased activity because Allies were running constant Wars through Seasons. One thing has been consistent, save for a few cases of mismatch, and that's the War Rating being in range. As far as I know, that's the largest deciding factor, and because it's based on Wins and Losses, it's inevitable that Allies will face larger ones eventually, if they gather enough Wins. The real issue for me would be the Top Tier pecking off much lower Allies during Seasons just to get constant Wars in, but I haven't seen it thus far. The War Rating range has been somewhat in proximity. Mind you, there have been a few random cases of a varied range, but I think that may have been more of a system default than a planned change.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    Yes war rating is used
    Yes it is always an even match

    That is not in question

    The point is alliance rating is also used.
    Amd it is a factor that can be manipulated and exploited.

    But in tiers 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15, you have allies with ratings from 500k to 15mil.
    A 2 mil ally can climb all the way to tier 5 fighting only other 2 mil allies and win easily
    Where as a 10mil ally may only get to tier 10 cus it is fighting stronger opponents....
    So wat if wen the 2mil alliy gets to tier 4 it now has to fight an 8mil ally cus there are no 2 mill allies left in tier 4.... it has had an easy run and scored alot of points to get there.
    It will lose go back to toer 5 or 6 amd get matched against another 2 mil ally and begin to float around here
    Whilst a stronger ally is floating around tier 9 dojng the same thing cus it is fighting tougher opposition.
    If the 2 mil ally fought 8 mil alies it never would have got that high. Therefore does not deserve to be that high.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    @Speeds80 it seems they did delete your post. Probs for talking bout gw.
    Which shows they are reading this.
    So kabam how about a response???
    How about some info on this???
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    I have yet to see a 2 Mil Ally in Tier 5. I think you're exaggerating the data.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    It would have to be one hell of an Ally to be able to traverse that high being that small. There may be similarities in Rating at certain Tiers, but Allies will still reach points they can't get past. Rating is no longer a metric that counts towards scoring. That's what you're noticing. The scoring is based on performance.
  • gohard123gohard123 Posts: 925 ★★★
    almost 3 pages of only 2 people going back and forth
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    a
    I have yet to see a 2 Mil Ally in Tier 5. I think you're exaggerating the data.

    I was merely stating that i believe it would be possible with matchmaking the way it is....
    Also a 2mil ally could have 30members that sell champs and have a small overall rating but a high level of strength in top champions. Meaning they will crush all other 2-4 mill allies they verse. It would take a stronger opponent to stop them. Undercurrent matchmaking this would not happen until they have climbed very high. If it happens at all. Meanwhile having scored easy wins exploiting matchmaking along the way

    I enjoy the way @GroundedWisdom you only reply to certain parts of what i say. You have made some claims in what you are saying yet have been unable to provide evidence.
    You tell me my evidence is wrong because you “think” think something different happens.
    I think you need to collect evidence before making anymore claims and trying to refute my evodence.

    Great you have the opinion he current system is right... i dissagree but good for you. But can you provide me with evidence to back up your claims?
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    edited April 2018
    This is an example of the situation we have atm

    hu1o2ndvc323.jpeg

    Alliances in “bubbles” fighting similar allies only.
    Yes when an ally reaches the top of its bubble it will begin to fight allies in the next bubble... but will never fight an ally 2 bubbles higher. And after it loses one or two it wil be back in its own bubble.

    An alliance at the top of 2-4 mil bubble is not going to be a stronger or better alliance than one in the middle of the 7-10 mil bubble my anymeans.
    Yet will be rewarded better.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 13,813 Guardian
    Maat1985 wrote: »
    This is an example of the situation we have atm

    It is a moderate oversimplification, but the more I study the problem the more I believe you are on to something here. I assumed that the striation would eventually break up after enough wars are fought and at the top of your "silos" it has to, given how match ups work (at the very top of each finger of your diagram the number of alliances that could be there is small enough that the match making system diverges from the normal war rating/alliance rating one we've been discussing to guarantee eventually finding a match, the details of which are a bit sketchy and may have changed after season one because it caused a problem in tier 1) but it does now occur to me that before that happens the segregation in alliance rating can create semi-stable divergences in war rating.

    Or to put it another way, when you say a 2 million win isn't worth as much as an 8 million win, I think you and I might differ on precisely in what way that's true, but I'm increasingly convinced that is true in a technical rating sense.


    @Kabam Miike I believe this is definitely worth bringing to the developer's attention. The short summary of the problem is this. Start with @Maat1985 's diagram above. Consider that when you match by war rating and alliance rating, in any tier where there are enough alliances the net effect is that all alliances only fight alliances of similar alliance rating. That means in effect it is almost like all the three million alliances are playing a different game than the eight million alliances, and getting ranked separately. The alliances are not actually being ranked against each other. To become the top ranked three million alliance, you only have to beat all other three million alliances. You don't have to beat any four million alliances, because you are never matched against them.

    Mathematically speaking, that significantly impairs the ability for war rating to properly assess and rank all alliances. Even though I believe Kabam added alliance rating to match making to address complaints, I believe it has to be removed. I can't yet prove the problem @Maat1985 specifies is widespread, but the system is definitely vulnerable to it. I'm convinced this is a more significant problem than I initially believed it to be.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    @DNA3000 i agree my diagram is an oversimplification.
    I lt was just something i put together to hopefully better illustrate my point.

    I am hoping now that my 3mil ally will be able to string some good wins together now after recruiting some skilled players with newer weaker accounts. I plan to see hw high we can climb whilst still fighting similar rated allies.
    With any luck this will help find some answers.
    Some input from some lower rated allies who are sitting higher up in tiers would be good. Although most of them probably dont want to as they are enjoying the fruits of this problem.
  • LilMaddogHTLilMaddogHT Posts: 818 ★★★★
    edited April 2018
    While I'll agree that the war matching system is not perfected, it is improved from what is was when Season 1 started.
    We are a 6m ally participating in 1 BG wars in tier 3. We ended season 1 in Gold 2. Regardless of ally or war rating, all I will say is that, if you win wars, you will climb in war rating AND tier - there is no argument against that. At some point you will climb to a point where you will win about 50/50 of the wars and I believe that is where you belong until you can improve your skill, AW strategy, attack champs, and/or defense champs which will make you climb higher. Oh, you can spend too to help climb (whether it's spending your time to gain in-game resources or your money from your wallet to buy it).
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    @LilMaddogHT to a point you are correct..... eventually everyone slots into a place that they fit..... noone can argue that.
    The issue here is that a 3mil allies mostly fight other 3mil allies whilst 8mil allies fight mostly other 8mil allies.
    So they are essentially playing in different leagues yet being ranked together....
    6mil ally in tier 3 is interesting. Quite high for a low rating ally.
    What is the rating of most allies you fight?? I would guess mistly between 5 and 8????
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    edited April 2018
    So whilst we are stick down low maybe we should look at doing 1 or 2 bg wars in an attempt to climb.....
    Get to a higher tier say 6 or 7 and then begin doing 3bg wars and we should be able to maintain it once we are there....

    My point is we improved our champs.... and our rating grew as a result.... at the same time we also improved our skill and organisation....
    But instead of growing we fell... cus we met harder competition... we could have maintained tier 6 or 7 wen we were weaker.... we wanted to go higher.... so we pushed and grew.... but instead we just faced stronger opponents....
    5mil we were happy in tier 7 fighting other 5mil allies for a 50/50 ratio... then we decided to recruit some stronger players so we could grow... we became 8mil... we started facing 8mil allies. We perform better but so do they....
    We should have stayed weaker we would have been getting better rewards...
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    If you want to go that route, it's legal. You still have to be able to maintain whatever Bracket you land in.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    This is crazy wen u do this math on season score....
    wgw3ksa5dx01.jpeg
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    If you want to go that route, it's legal. You still have to be able to maintain whatever Bracket you land in.

    Yeah of course. I feel cus matchmaking is the way it os it is much easier to maintain any tier as opposed to climbing....
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,284 ★★★★★
    There is no such thing as a perfect system. If people are looking hard enough, they're going to find a way to work it. In terms of Allies playing honestly and going up in Brackets, that is fair regardless of their Rating. They earn it. I'm not entirely sure why you're pointing out ways to manipulate it, but wherever there is a system, people will try. It's fair for those who play honestly. I'm sorry if you feel a certain way about the Tiers being proportionate to Rating, but I disagree. If an Ally earned their Rating, they deserve to go up. You can try to climb using 1 BG, but when you Match 3, you will be met with different Allies with the skill and means to maintain whatever Tier you switch over in, and you won't be able to stay there and accumulate Points unless you have the ability to do so. The system may not be perfect, but it's fair. You keep what you kill.
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    edited April 2018
    are you missing my point????
    We were weaker and didnt foght wars as well and we were higher......
    We grew stronger and got better at wars and then we fell.....

    We got stronger and better.....

    We are struggling more than we we were weaker and not as good....

    Simple if 3mil allies only match agains allies 2-5 mil then they should be on a seperate leaderboard, ranking and reward structure then
    8mil allies that match agianst 7-10 mil allies....

    Just because a 3 mil ally can beat a 4 mill does not mean they deserve more rewards than a 8mill ally that beats 9 mil allies but loses to 10mil allies....

    People say you want more rewards.... get better... get stronger.... improve your skill... improve your communication...
    We did all that...
    It didnt work....
    We just fell behind cus all we got was tougher competition...
    I know we are better at wars now.... but we get less rewards...
  • Maat1985Maat1985 Posts: 1,704 ★★★
    I will push my less skilled and less organised 3mil ally up.... and then we will see....
    Atm lower ally with less skill and organisation is getting more rewards for me.....
    Gunna keep going and see how high we get before it chamges
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