Due to an issue with Alliance War Defense Tactic, we will be ending this Alliance War Season effective immediately. This current War will not count towards your Alliance War Season Score. War Season eligibility rewards will be reduced to 2 Wars in the Season.

We understand that this is not a perfect solution, but without the ability to remove or freeze the War Rating quick enough, the rest of our Alliance War season would be compromised.

This war will remain active, and in-game, you will still see the season until tomorrow. After we end the season tomorrow, we will be taking some time to collect data and remove the changes to the Alliance War Season score. Once that is complete, we will be able to send out Alliance War Season rewards.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Suck it, Mercs

13

Comments

  • OGAvengerOGAvenger Posts: 775 ★★★★
    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs
  • Demps928Demps928 Posts: 21
    @Kabam Miike it sounded like the list of people who hit this past run was completed from the post. Can you provide any clarity on when we should expect to see it?
  • StellarStellar Posts: 764 ★★★
    Crys23 said:

    theham said:

    Seriously...if you can confirm cheating, why not perma-ban them? Because that would solve most of this.

    But I'm sure we can guess why they don't....


    The reason we're not able to take action is that we can't 100% prove who broke the Terms of Service, which means that we wouldn't be able to hand out suspensions either. We also DO take action on accounts that break the Terms of Service, so not sure what you're thinking here, because accounts of all shapes and sizes have received Suspensions, including permanent ones.
    If you're not 100% sure it's a legit run, just disqualify them from the results. You made the Legend Run rules, you can do whatever you want. If a slight discrepancy gets you thrown out of the results, nobody will hire mercs for legend runs. Then you'll have a top100 you're fully confident it's legit.
    a bit radical but i can't disagree !

    if someone "took a trip" to do the legend run before re-appearing at its original location, there is a high chance he gave its ID to a merc to do the legend run for him ! if you can't ban him, at least disqualify him for the legend run.
  • theham said:

    Seriously...if you can confirm cheating, why not perma-ban them? Because that would solve most of this.

    But I'm sure we can guess why they don't....


    The reason we're not able to take action is that we can't 100% prove who broke the Terms of Service, which means that we wouldn't be able to hand out suspensions either. We also DO take action on accounts that break the Terms of Service, so not sure what you're thinking here, because accounts of all shapes and sizes have received Suspensions, including permanent ones.
    That's cool. So when is this list going to be announced? Since it's been stated you guys are happy with your new top 125. Are we holding out for a day and letting the 7.3 is delayed because of mercs announcement sink in or. And can you do this for the monthly eqs as well?
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Posts: 4,345 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs

    As it turns out, this is not the best option for reasons I will not discuss publicly.

    I will say that Kabam hunting down mercs has up to now been a game of cat and mouse, and the mice keep learning how to better avoid the cat. The game need to change to guillotine and mouse, where the mouse doesn't get a chance to learn how to avoid the guillotine. We don't need to train the cat to be smarter, we need to change the game into something the mouse no longer wants to play.

    That's theoretically possible.
    I believe the "home" option also would mean violation of some privacy terms. It would just be a mess.
  • StellarStellar Posts: 764 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Stellar said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Stellar said:

    After chasing down mercs, you could take time to hunt bots ?

    here is an "official bot system" you could check to root out arenas cheaters :

    https://yourbotler.com/?fbclid=IwAR22r2en3u0A7aoJblhSSVtFirK8vdoxBpTEvUdPh845ANXalKtxGrmHvRs

    That bot has been around for years, and I'm pretty sure Kabam is aware of it.

    The problem is less a question of the bot software, and more a question of how that software is tuned to attempt to evade detection.
    I agree, and there are tons of those bots (a simple search in Google and you have at least 4 bot solutions on the first page). Maybe Kabam could use one to see how they can circumvent their process to better act against those cheaters
    The challenge with bots is best highlighted by describing how I grind arena. I'm usually sitting on the couch, barely watching the screen, tap tap tapping away while watching people rescue entangled seals on Youtube, for an hour at a time. I *am* a bot when I'm grinding arena. It is hard to tell the difference between a software bot and a meatsack bot.

    At the moment.
    Well when a "meatsack" bot is doing between 50 to 60 series by hours without stopping during 72hrs without sleeping you can wonder abour the use of bot !
    Of course you could have 3 peoples playing each 8hrs/day non stop during 3 days...
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 28,796 ★★★★★
    Stellar said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Stellar said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Stellar said:

    After chasing down mercs, you could take time to hunt bots ?

    here is an "official bot system" you could check to root out arenas cheaters :

    https://yourbotler.com/?fbclid=IwAR22r2en3u0A7aoJblhSSVtFirK8vdoxBpTEvUdPh845ANXalKtxGrmHvRs

    That bot has been around for years, and I'm pretty sure Kabam is aware of it.

    The problem is less a question of the bot software, and more a question of how that software is tuned to attempt to evade detection.
    I agree, and there are tons of those bots (a simple search in Google and you have at least 4 bot solutions on the first page). Maybe Kabam could use one to see how they can circumvent their process to better act against those cheaters
    The challenge with bots is best highlighted by describing how I grind arena. I'm usually sitting on the couch, barely watching the screen, tap tap tapping away while watching people rescue entangled seals on Youtube, for an hour at a time. I *am* a bot when I'm grinding arena. It is hard to tell the difference between a software bot and a meatsack bot.

    At the moment.
    Well when a "meatsack" bot is doing between 50 to 60 series by hours without stopping during 72hrs without sleeping you can wonder abour the use of bot !
    Of course you could have 3 peoples playing each 8hrs/day non stop during 3 days...
    Well, when I first started Grinding, I would go straight for 3 days. I'd play until my Recharge came, and play more. I slept very little. Now, I'm not saying bots don't exist. That's obvious. I just know when someone wants a Champ, they're going as constant as possible. That's my first rule of a Grind. If I think I have enough, I do more.
  • ReferenceReference Posts: 2,411 ★★★★
    IKON said:

    It also ends the program for everyone else, not sure this is a win.

    I still consider this a win. There is no perfect solution in the world. Wide existence of merc have already made the legend system pointless.

    In fact, arena bots too. Would Kabam look at how many accounts in arena top 500 are operating 24 hours endlessly during that 3 days?
  • OGAvengerOGAvenger Posts: 775 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    ItsDamien said:

    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs

    As it turns out, this is not the best option for reasons I will not discuss publicly.

    I will say that Kabam hunting down mercs has up to now been a game of cat and mouse, and the mice keep learning how to better avoid the cat. The game need to change to guillotine and mouse, where the mouse doesn't get a chance to learn how to avoid the guillotine. We don't need to train the cat to be smarter, we need to change the game into something the mouse no longer wants to play.

    That's theoretically possible.
    I believe the "home" option also would mean violation of some privacy terms. It would just be a mess.
    Probably not, because it would be opt in, just like the Showdown wasn't a violation of privacy terms even though the players had to agree to be video recorded - not just their gameplay, but their own persons.

    The real problem is that there are tactical responses to forcing players to "be home" and there's absolutely nothing to be gained from teaching mercs one more counter-surveillance technique. We've basically been doing the analogous equivalent to breeding resistant bacteria. We find one thing the mercs are doing and ban them, they figure out what that one thing was based on who was banned and do something else. Eventually, through dumb random chance you breed a semi-competent merc.

    Instead you want to deploy a spectrum of overlapping drugs designed to give the microbes no way to evolve resistance. They are just banned, and they don't know why.
    This might be a dumb question, but how do they find a merc then anyways? My understanding was Kabam are able to see the location of people who log in to your account. They see that someone or multiple someone’s from much different location than the “original” location are logging in as well as the “original” location. That would signal to me that this “original” person has shared their account information with one or multiple other somebody’s. That understanding seems to be justified by their announcement today.

    Therefore, I’m not entirely sure where the harm would be in Kabam coming out and stating anyone not completing the Legend run in their home location is automatically disqualified
  • OGAvengerOGAvenger Posts: 775 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    DNA3000 said:

    ItsDamien said:

    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs

    As it turns out, this is not the best option for reasons I will not discuss publicly.

    I will say that Kabam hunting down mercs has up to now been a game of cat and mouse, and the mice keep learning how to better avoid the cat. The game need to change to guillotine and mouse, where the mouse doesn't get a chance to learn how to avoid the guillotine. We don't need to train the cat to be smarter, we need to change the game into something the mouse no longer wants to play.

    That's theoretically possible.
    I believe the "home" option also would mean violation of some privacy terms. It would just be a mess.
    Probably not, because it would be opt in, just like the Showdown wasn't a violation of privacy terms even though the players had to agree to be video recorded - not just their gameplay, but their own persons.

    The real problem is that there are tactical responses to forcing players to "be home" and there's absolutely nothing to be gained from teaching mercs one more counter-surveillance technique. We've basically been doing the analogous equivalent to breeding resistant bacteria. We find one thing the mercs are doing and ban them, they figure out what that one thing was based on who was banned and do something else. Eventually, through dumb random chance you breed a semi-competent merc.

    Instead you want to deploy a spectrum of overlapping drugs designed to give the microbes no way to evolve resistance. They are just banned, and they don't know why.
    This might be a dumb question, but how do they find a merc then anyways? My understanding was Kabam are able to see the location of people who log in to your account. They see that someone or multiple someone’s from much different location than the “original” location are logging in as well as the “original” location. That would signal to me that this “original” person has shared their account information with one or multiple other somebody’s. That understanding seems to be justified by their announcement today.

    Therefore, I’m not entirely sure where the harm would be in Kabam coming out and stating anyone not completing the Legend run in their home location is automatically disqualified
    This gets into technical ways and means, and given the current situation I'm no longer giving specific hints to the merc community in that area. Let me just say that the technical description of how I would describe what I believe Kabam is doing is not the same as the colloquial description that @Kabam Miike is using to attempt to convey the situation in a non-technical manner. I saw a Youtube comment on one of the content creator's channels flipping out about how Kabam just admitted to performing "surveillance" on the players with Miike's statement. That's reading way too much into the wording of the announcement.

    To answer your question, I would have to explain what I think Kabam is doing that Miike is describing, then describe how that works technically, explain how countermeasures would work, how counter-countermeasures could be deployed, and what the ramifications of all of that would be on the players. That's unfortunately something I would love to do ('cause, you know, DNA) but no longer willing to do while we're in this particular situation with the mercs.

    It is not a dumb question. It is internetworking 101, internet fundamentals 150, network security 205, and basic forensic analysis 301.
    You could’ve just said it was way over my head and left it at that haha
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 13,520 Guardian
    OGAvenger said:

    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    DNA3000 said:

    ItsDamien said:

    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs

    As it turns out, this is not the best option for reasons I will not discuss publicly.

    I will say that Kabam hunting down mercs has up to now been a game of cat and mouse, and the mice keep learning how to better avoid the cat. The game need to change to guillotine and mouse, where the mouse doesn't get a chance to learn how to avoid the guillotine. We don't need to train the cat to be smarter, we need to change the game into something the mouse no longer wants to play.

    That's theoretically possible.
    I believe the "home" option also would mean violation of some privacy terms. It would just be a mess.
    Probably not, because it would be opt in, just like the Showdown wasn't a violation of privacy terms even though the players had to agree to be video recorded - not just their gameplay, but their own persons.

    The real problem is that there are tactical responses to forcing players to "be home" and there's absolutely nothing to be gained from teaching mercs one more counter-surveillance technique. We've basically been doing the analogous equivalent to breeding resistant bacteria. We find one thing the mercs are doing and ban them, they figure out what that one thing was based on who was banned and do something else. Eventually, through dumb random chance you breed a semi-competent merc.

    Instead you want to deploy a spectrum of overlapping drugs designed to give the microbes no way to evolve resistance. They are just banned, and they don't know why.
    This might be a dumb question, but how do they find a merc then anyways? My understanding was Kabam are able to see the location of people who log in to your account. They see that someone or multiple someone’s from much different location than the “original” location are logging in as well as the “original” location. That would signal to me that this “original” person has shared their account information with one or multiple other somebody’s. That understanding seems to be justified by their announcement today.

    Therefore, I’m not entirely sure where the harm would be in Kabam coming out and stating anyone not completing the Legend run in their home location is automatically disqualified
    This gets into technical ways and means, and given the current situation I'm no longer giving specific hints to the merc community in that area. Let me just say that the technical description of how I would describe what I believe Kabam is doing is not the same as the colloquial description that @Kabam Miike is using to attempt to convey the situation in a non-technical manner. I saw a Youtube comment on one of the content creator's channels flipping out about how Kabam just admitted to performing "surveillance" on the players with Miike's statement. That's reading way too much into the wording of the announcement.

    To answer your question, I would have to explain what I think Kabam is doing that Miike is describing, then describe how that works technically, explain how countermeasures would work, how counter-countermeasures could be deployed, and what the ramifications of all of that would be on the players. That's unfortunately something I would love to do ('cause, you know, DNA) but no longer willing to do while we're in this particular situation with the mercs.

    It is not a dumb question. It is internetworking 101, internet fundamentals 150, network security 205, and basic forensic analysis 301.
    You could’ve just said it was way over my head and left it at that haha
    I think you'd understand it in about sixty seconds of explaining. It isn't hard, it is just something most people aren't exposed to unless you work in networking a lot and are told these things or run into them first hand.
  • GildenlowGildenlow Posts: 658 ★★★
    I think this is amazing.

    Every move kabam does against the dark forces will be applauded.

    I have never win this title and I have never tried to because I know there are so many mercs out there.

    Once it's on again I'll probably never win this title, but at least i'll know someone who actually deserves it did.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 980 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    DNA3000 said:

    ItsDamien said:

    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Require them to do Legends runs at their “home” location. Anyone who magically “took a trip” during their legend run is automatically disqualified.

    That’s a nuclear option I could get behind. Sucks for people actually taking a trip and doing it, but that has to be a very minimal amount of people. MOST of these magical trips have to be mercs

    As it turns out, this is not the best option for reasons I will not discuss publicly.

    I will say that Kabam hunting down mercs has up to now been a game of cat and mouse, and the mice keep learning how to better avoid the cat. The game need to change to guillotine and mouse, where the mouse doesn't get a chance to learn how to avoid the guillotine. We don't need to train the cat to be smarter, we need to change the game into something the mouse no longer wants to play.

    That's theoretically possible.
    I believe the "home" option also would mean violation of some privacy terms. It would just be a mess.
    Probably not, because it would be opt in, just like the Showdown wasn't a violation of privacy terms even though the players had to agree to be video recorded - not just their gameplay, but their own persons.

    The real problem is that there are tactical responses to forcing players to "be home" and there's absolutely nothing to be gained from teaching mercs one more counter-surveillance technique. We've basically been doing the analogous equivalent to breeding resistant bacteria. We find one thing the mercs are doing and ban them, they figure out what that one thing was based on who was banned and do something else. Eventually, through dumb random chance you breed a semi-competent merc.

    Instead you want to deploy a spectrum of overlapping drugs designed to give the microbes no way to evolve resistance. They are just banned, and they don't know why.
    This might be a dumb question, but how do they find a merc then anyways? My understanding was Kabam are able to see the location of people who log in to your account. They see that someone or multiple someone’s from much different location than the “original” location are logging in as well as the “original” location. That would signal to me that this “original” person has shared their account information with one or multiple other somebody’s. That understanding seems to be justified by their announcement today.

    Therefore, I’m not entirely sure where the harm would be in Kabam coming out and stating anyone not completing the Legend run in their home location is automatically disqualified
    It is not a dumb question. It is internetworking 101, internet fundamentals 150, network security 205, and basic forensic analysis 301.
    are these actual numbers? or just proverbial?
  • TrashyPandaTrashyPanda Posts: 1,574 ★★★★★
    Definitely a good move. Sucks, but it's a responsible move.

    Problem is, Mercs will always exist. The demand creates them, and the system can't stop them. It's far easier to break a lock than it is to create one, after all.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 6,509 ★★★★★

    xNig said:

    To stop mercs, it’s might actually be very straightforward.

    You just need to make the penalty to be found out harsh enough to discourage people from mercing or allowing mercs to access their accounts.

    Upon suspicious activity, send the player an in-game mail, stating that you found “xxx accessed your account on yyy date” and ask for a reply and explanation with supporting proof within 3 working days. Failure of which to provide will result in a permanent ban from the game.

    It’s harsh enough, and open enough to decide on a case by case basis.

    What kind of proof could an innocent person provide to show that someone didn't access their account?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but an innocent person would not be in that situation in the first place.

    Kabam has lots of login data from us. So only out of the ordinary instances get flagged (like suddenly appearing in a different country for a day and back in the original country shortly). If someone genuinely traveled, I'm sure they would have some sort of proof that they did.
  • DanasjonDanasjon Posts: 134
    Personally, I never did legend runs (no right champs) but I 100% agree with kabam. Let's delete those mercs.
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