@Kabam I didn't expect this from you. Profile pic as prize? Not even some five star shards like last year. Are you serious? You are making yearly events worse now foe example, summoner appreciation calendar(pay to win) summoner showdown(only PP), spring cleaning event(pay to win) and gifting event(don't know what will happen). This is a sticky situation and we need some update to rewards for all difficulties
@Kabam I didn't expect this from you. Profile pic as prize? Not even some five star shards like last year. Are you serious? You are making yearly events worse now foe example, summoner appreciation calendar(pay to win) summoner showdown(only PP), spring cleaning event(pay to win) and gifting event(don't know what will happen). This is a sticky situation and we need some update to rewards for all difficulties
Events don’t need rewards to be good. Saying that pushes a narrative that you don’t care about the actual gameplay of the game and all you want is to get rewards and open crystals only to use those champions to open more crystals and get more rewards.
Regarding yearly events being made worse. Summoner appreciation calendar was being exploited by people making new accounts and getting thousands of free units. That needed to change. Kabam made it over complicated this year, but it’s good that it wasn’t a calendar. Hopefully next year they swing in back to a middle ground and get it right, it’s better, but still has flaws.
Summoner showdown is an event purely about the competition. This way, you are only encouraged to fight if you actually want to compete, or if you want to enjoy the game and try challenging fights. (What an odd concept, enjoying the game?)
Spring cleaning event has, and always will be, an event for the spenders. I’m not sure why you’ve brought this up when it was the same as last year.
Gifting event hasn’t happened yet and you even admit you don’t know what will happen. So using it as an example of Kabam making yearly events worse is ludicrous in my opinion.
It was always ment as a fun fight with competitive value. They just threw in some small rewards last year for good sports and got so much backlash for it beeing too little so yeah had i been in charge i would take it away aswell
You got a lotta Dis for that, lol, but I genuinely agree.
There's zero pressure for completing this event. Not completing it doesn't lose you anything of value. If you don't see value in doing it, then don't do it. It's just a pfp. Big woo.
I like it, myself. I'll do these fights for fun, and to sharpen my skills... or at least to get the feeling of the new timings. Playing Hulkbutter has been rougher for a while now.
I'd love to have more 'practice' content like this available, it's great.
There are prizes for the tournament. Gotta compete for a chance. Gotta win the bracket for the prizes. It's a mix of in game and real world prizes too.
I think my question is getting sidetracked lol And I'm not defending Guytennis but his comment seems to be misunderstood as well.
The point wasn't any of DNA's arguments (which personally I think are usually very good). I was just curious at his use of the pronoun "we" in a couple of sentences. Indicating that he's on the inside Kbm camp. It's not a "we" as in speaking as someone from the community. A bit odd that's all.
I suggest you not to drill into that too much, otherwise you’ll get into a situation that like some scientists believe the virus is lab leaked but then group of defenders jump out and said your accusation lack of proof. It’s internet and you don’t know where the people in this forum are coming from. If you aware it is difficult for Kabam to identify who is merc or using bots, it is also difficult for you to identify which participants here are actually alternative accounts of insider. Given this situation, don’t get yourself into “burden of proof” dilemma. You can’t succeed and it’s just wasting your time.
@Kabam I didn't expect this from you. Profile pic as prize? Not even some five star shards like last year. Are you serious? You are making yearly events worse now foe example, summoner appreciation calendar(pay to win) summoner showdown(only PP), spring cleaning event(pay to win) and gifting event(don't know what will happen). This is a sticky situation and we need some update to rewards for all difficulties
No we don't need to update rewards. You don't even need to play this if you don't want to. This is a qualifier for their global competition. These fights are there for enjoyement only.
So things are a little different this year, but here’s a glimpse at some of the rewards to those who make to the semi finals. Hope that helps you curiosity.
This is getting downvoted but it is actually a very important question. One that many here are just glossing over.
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
“test of skill and reward is bragging rights” 🤣 more like test of having 5* hercules with suicides and getting the perfect rng.
This is getting downvoted but it is actually a very important question. One that many here are just glossing over.
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
You made very good points here, I'm not sure why you're getting disagrees.
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
“test of skill and reward is bragging rights” 🤣 more like test of having 5* hercules with suicides and getting the perfect rng.
You dont need herc to solo
what makes you think i’m after an 8 min long solo 🧐
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
If you don't have the resources to rank up the champs you think you need, we don't want to encourage you to spend them for a chance to earn them back. We want you to sit on the sidelines and let the players who are the actual intended targets of the content to have their go at it.
Meanwhile, if you choose to spend the rest of the month taking a break from the game, I don't think you're going to get a lot of sympathy from others when you say you lack resources. How do you think other players get those resources, if not from grinding them out by actually playing the game?
I don't know you or how you play the game, but it sounds like you're someone who has been trying to fast track your way through everything. Focusing all your resources on the expensive proposition of ranking your "most powerful" champs, and tackling content as if you are supposed to bring a god tier champ and knock it out the first time you attempt it. I have no problem with people who choose to play the game that way, but if you choose to play the game that way you had better be extremely good at it, because the game isn't designed for that and will not help players to do it. The game is about building rosters long term and learning skills long term and overcoming content long term. If you want the fast path to everything, and if you don't have a fast path forward you're just going to step back and come back when one materializes, your playing experience with get worse and worse, and the number of people who will sympathize with your situation will get smaller and smaller.
Some things are just not going to be for you, and when you run into them you're supposed to find something else to do instead. Until you reach the absolute top of the game, there always will be something else to work on. If you choose not to do so, that's entirely your choice.
If you don't have the resources to rank up the champs you think you need, we don't want to encourage you to spend them for a chance to earn them
back. We want you to sit on the sidelines and let the players who are the actual intended targets of the content to have their go at it.
Hey, @DNA3000 . I'm not trying to be cute or snarky here. Genuine question: Are you part of the kbm team now? Sorry if I missed the info somewhere and late to the party lol But interesting choice of words. I'm very intrigued 😁
"We" as in the part of the player community that enjoys challenging content just for the sake of it, and not only doesn't need every bit of content to contain a ton of rewards, but thinks over-pursuit of rewards hampers many players' enjoyment of the game to their own detriment.
A core idea I happen to believe in is that a game like MCOC which intends to have broad appeal should have something for everyone, not everything for someone. In other words, we don't imagine a hypothetical player and try to make everything good for them. We imagine lots of different players and we try to make some of the game appeal to each of them, even if those parts won't appeal to everyone else. Having things that most players won't like sounds bad, but the only way to avoid that is to narrow your focus to just a narrow slice of players. Having something that only 30% of players will like and 70% will hate is perfectly fine if something else appeals to a different 30%, and something else appeals to another different 30%, so eventually everyone gets something.
Challenge content will not appeal to everyone. But it makes for a healthier game if the game includes such content even if most players won't enjoy it, and if players understand that the only reason they get what they want is if other people get what they want as well, even if it is stuff they personally won't always like.
We, the players that enjoy challenge content, understand that not everyone will enjoy it. So we, the players that do enjoy such content think it is a good compromise if such content contains very little rewards, so the player who don't enjoy such content are not losing out on anything if they choose to skip it, and we, the players willing to throw ourselves at such content hope that the lack of rewards encourages those that do not like such content to let it pass them by.
I don't claim to represent all players who like challenging content, but I believe there are enough people who feel this way that it is reasonable to claim that my viewpoint is shared by a substantial number of players in this specific case.
This is getting downvoted but it is actually a very important question. One that many here are just glossing over.
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
You made very good points here, I'm not sure why you're getting disagrees.
Because that post represented one extremely narrow point of view. I don't think it was an invalid point of view, but I think it seemed unaware of how narrow it was. I don't spend too much attention on disagrees, but I suspect most people reading that post don't agree with its fundamental premises that it takes completely for granted.
First of all, what's the point? This is a common question that gets asked about every part of the game. And the answer is always the same, always obvious, but still seems to be something that eludes some people. The point is to challenge the strongest MCOC players. Not the "best" or the "most skilled" but the strongest. The strongest players in the game combine the strongest rosters with the highest skill playing that roster. The entire game is designed around rewarding the strongest players, as measured by the combination of their roster and how well they use that roster. Why should the Summoner Showdown be any different? It is what the game is.
Second, there's a strong presumption that the best part of the previous Summoner Showdown was the fact that lots of people participated, because no one cared about the actual top competitors. To be honest, I'm surprised that didn't generate several dozen disagrees all by itself. I'm sure that was true for some players, but that wasn't universally true.
You know how most Youtube content for this game is just average players doing slightly above average things that most players can relate to? Of course not, me either. Most spectator content for MCOC involves vastly stronger than average players exhibiting vastly above average rosters played with vastly higher than average skill. If the poster's theory of what attracts players was correct, we'd see a flood of average player content with large subscriber counts. We don't. It is not that they don't exist, they just don't attract a large following most of the time. Because if I want to watch an average player doing average things with an average roster, I'll watch myself play my second account with one hand.
In terms of representing a point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with the post. But it asserts its point of view as if it was the objective consensus reality, when it is probably a marginal point of view instead. If I don't like something and I say I don't like it, that's one thing. If I don't like something and I say the problem with this thing is that it is unlikeable that says something else entirely. The poster might have been trying to say the former, but their words said the latter, and you're not going to get a lot of support for that position.
Bragging rights.....ok. Take away the rewards for the summer of pain. Then we'll start bragging.
Who do you think that would hurt? The top players? I'm not even a top player, and if Summer of Pain had zero rewards, I would have still attempted it. And one Nexus plus or minus doesn't mean a huge amount to my game progress. The two T5CC mean more, but it wouldn't stunt my roster progress by a lot. I'm still sitting on four formed T5CC that I'm just waiting for better options for, because my eight R3s are currently plenty.
Most if not all of the players with a competitive shot at Showdown are probably much stronger than I am. The players you hurt by removing rewards from Summer of Pain are progressing players, probably especially high tier Cavaliers who haven't formed their first T5CC yet or who haven't pulled an especially strong 6* champion to rank up yet. If Summer of Pain launched at the difficulty it was advertised to be, few if any of them would be getting those rewards.
Summer of Pain was *supposed* to be end game content with end game rewards. It ended up being higher than average difficulty content with Monty Haul tier rewards. Making it instead a zero reward bragging rights content would have actually made it closer to what a lot of players wanted from it, instead of farther away.
This is the lack of understanding many players have about how different players play the game. They'll say things like "take away the rewards from SoP" like that's a threat. For the players who want challenge content, that's no threat. And anything that makes rewards harder to get helps the players who are already very strong. They don't need help getting rewards. It is everyone else that does.
Why do so many people need to be paid a wage to play a game?
Rewards are part of the fun of the game. They aren't "wages" used outside of the game, but part of the game itself as they are used in the game to get new champions or rank up champions, etc.
This is getting downvoted but it is actually a very important question. One that many here are just glossing over.
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
You made very good points here, I'm not sure why you're getting disagrees.
Because that post represented one extremely narrow point of view. I don't think it was an invalid point of view, but I think it seemed unaware of how narrow it was. I don't spend too much attention on disagrees, but I suspect most people reading that post don't agree with its fundamental premises that it takes completely for granted.
First of all, what's the point? This is a common question that gets asked about every part of the game. And the answer is always the same, always obvious, but still seems to be something that eludes some people. The point is to challenge the strongest MCOC players. Not the "best" or the "most skilled" but the strongest. The strongest players in the game combine the strongest rosters with the highest skill playing that roster. The entire game is designed around rewarding the strongest players, as measured by the combination of their roster and how well they use that roster. Why should the Summoner Showdown be any different? It is what the game is.
Second, there's a strong presumption that the best part of the previous Summoner Showdown was the fact that lots of people participated, because no one cared about the actual top competitors. To be honest, I'm surprised that didn't generate several dozen disagrees all by itself. I'm sure that was true for some players, but that wasn't universally true.
You know how most Youtube content for this game is just average players doing slightly above average things that most players can relate to? Of course not, me either. Most spectator content for MCOC involves vastly stronger than average players exhibiting vastly above average rosters played with vastly higher than average skill. If the poster's theory of what attracts players was correct, we'd see a flood of average player content with large subscriber counts. We don't. It is not that they don't exist, they just don't attract a large following most of the time. Because if I want to watch an average player doing average things with an average roster, I'll watch myself play my second account with one hand.
In terms of representing a point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with the post. But it asserts its point of view as if it was the objective consensus reality, when it is probably a marginal point of view instead. If I don't like something and I say I don't like it, that's one thing. If I don't like something and I say the problem with this thing is that it is unlikeable that says something else entirely. The poster might have been trying to say the former, but their words said the latter, and you're not going to get a lot of support for that position.
With all due respect, you don’t know the intention behind this event. Only Kabam does. You say it is solely to challenge the players. I disagree. I don’t think Kabam would go through the event planning on the logistics side complete with commentators and production if this wasn’t intended to be a community build event.
Your YouTube argument is a strawman and you are completely ignoring my main point. Frame of reference and context matter. The vast majority of YT views are of players that are attempting, or just attempted, content. Level 25’s weren’t watching SoP YT fights because they will not be doing that content; they don’t care, it’s not relevant to them. Even if they did, they don’t know if it’s because the player has an R3 Torch or because that player has crazy skill. They have not experienced the fight, thus don’t have context or a frame of reference that is relevant to them personally.
A recent poll suggests around 70% of players that normally would do the fights, will not even participate. How many of them have written the entire event off mentally? Obviously we don’t know. It’s a thesis, not scientific method. I say more people would follow the event if they participated. If you disagree, fine.
I personally will not be doing the fights. I haven’t even looked at the bosses or nodes. If someone tells me, “So and so did that fight in 125 hits.” I’ll know it was good but the number will be completely arbitrary to me. It will generate zero interest. Now if you said, “So and so beat Gwenmaster in 30 hits.” That means something to me. That generates excitement. Because I’ve experienced it.
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
That's ok but couldn't you guys have put more effort in the profile pics? They look really bland.
Bragging rights.....ok. Take away the rewards for the summer of pain. Then we'll start bragging.
Difference between 32 and 33 R3s for me and a Nexus that likely will give me nothing of use wouldn't affect me much. I'd still have finished all the fights bc they were fun. You should try having fun actually playing the game some time and not worrying so much about what you're getting for it
Don't complain about a profile picture, to me it looks better than the summer of pain rewards. Just imagine getting a profile picture like that while your friends have a 6 star rank 3 doom and you have a 6 star rank 1 groot.
With all due respect, you don’t know the intention behind this event. Only Kabam does.
Perhaps, but I do know the definition of irony. To the extent that I do not know the intention of the content in the game, you have no idea who composes the vast majority of Youtube views or what they are currently attempting, and you cannot have any idea what the majority of players will do based on a forum poll. If you're going to hold me to the standard of not knowing anything I can't prove, you should hold yourself to the same standard.
Forum gatekeepers in full force. New posters and lurkers beware.
You're not going to pin that martyr nonsense on me. I'm extremely patient and welcoming to new posters. But if you're going to hit, expect to get hit back. And if you think "you should hold yourself to the same standard you hold others to" is a form of "gatekeeping" then that betrays a very problematic attitude towards posting. The forums are a place for players to exchange ideas and discuss topics. It is not a place where people can expect to speak but not be replied to except in the way they want.
I don't care that you're new. It didn't even occur to me until you mentioned it. I care that you feel free to tell people they don't actually know anything, even if they do, and then assert a bunch of things you couldn't possibly know as if they were facts. All while tossing out the claim of strawman usage for an analogous situation that I think most people will think is quite relevant.
You have every right to continue to post from that perspective. That's your right as a forum participant. But everyone else has the right to call you on it if they choose to. You don't have the right to be shielded from criticism.
This is getting downvoted but it is actually a very important question. One that many here are just glossing over.
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
You made very good points here, I'm not sure why you're getting disagrees.
Because that post represented one extremely narrow point of view. I don't think it was an invalid point of view, but I think it seemed unaware of how narrow it was. I don't spend too much attention on disagrees, but I suspect most people reading that post don't agree with its fundamental premises that it takes completely for granted.
First of all, what's the point? This is a common question that gets asked about every part of the game. And the answer is always the same, always obvious, but still seems to be something that eludes some people. The point is to challenge the strongest MCOC players. Not the "best" or the "most skilled" but the strongest. The strongest players in the game combine the strongest rosters with the highest skill playing that roster. The entire game is designed around rewarding the strongest players, as measured by the combination of their roster and how well they use that roster. Why should the Summoner Showdown be any different? It is what the game is.
Second, there's a strong presumption that the best part of the previous Summoner Showdown was the fact that lots of people participated, because no one cared about the actual top competitors. To be honest, I'm surprised that didn't generate several dozen disagrees all by itself. I'm sure that was true for some players, but that wasn't universally true.
You know how most Youtube content for this game is just average players doing slightly above average things that most players can relate to? Of course not, me either. Most spectator content for MCOC involves vastly stronger than average players exhibiting vastly above average rosters played with vastly higher than average skill. If the poster's theory of what attracts players was correct, we'd see a flood of average player content with large subscriber counts. We don't. It is not that they don't exist, they just don't attract a large following most of the time. Because if I want to watch an average player doing average things with an average roster, I'll watch myself play my second account with one hand.
In terms of representing a point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with the post. But it asserts its point of view as if it was the objective consensus reality, when it is probably a marginal point of view instead. If I don't like something and I say I don't like it, that's one thing. If I don't like something and I say the problem with this thing is that it is unlikeable that says something else entirely. The poster might have been trying to say the former, but their words said the latter, and you're not going to get a lot of support for that position.
With all due respect, you don’t know the intention behind this event. Only Kabam does. You say it is solely to challenge the players. I disagree. I don’t think Kabam would go through the event planning on the logistics side complete with commentators and production if this wasn’t intended to be a community build event.
Your YouTube argument is a strawman and you are completely ignoring my main point. Frame of reference and context matter. The vast majority of YT views are of players that are attempting, or just attempted, content. Level 25’s weren’t watching SoP YT fights because they will not be doing that content; they don’t care, it’s not relevant to them. Even if they did, they don’t know if it’s because the player has an R3 Torch or because that player has crazy skill. They have not experienced the fight, thus don’t have context or a frame of reference that is relevant to them personally.
A recent poll suggests around 70% of players that normally would do the fights, will not even participate. How many of them have written the entire event off mentally? Obviously we don’t know. It’s a thesis, not scientific method. I say more people would follow the event if they participated. If you disagree, fine.
I personally will not be doing the fights. I haven’t even looked at the bosses or nodes. If someone tells me, “So and so did that fight in 125 hits.” I’ll know it was good but the number will be completely arbitrary to me. It will generate zero interest. Now if you said, “So and so beat Gwenmaster in 30 hits.” That means something to me. That generates excitement. Because I’ve experienced it.
I dont know how long you've been playing this game, but if it's been since before covid was ever a thing, you'd know that summoner showdown was always held as a live event at their new York comic con booth. So this even up until last year was never meant for everyone to take part in. It was an incentive to try and visit new York comic con.
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
It's honestly a test of the biggest wallets not skill. There are maybe a handful of people that could do this fight with a few revives let alone a solo.
It's an event that I won't be bothering with. It's absolute rubbish, the pic doesn't even look good. This month has been a bad month. I've done everything worth doing and now this just feels like a slap in the face. On the plus side I can take a break from the game for a while.
Perhaps it feels like a slap in the face because that's the appropriate response to this particular attitude.
Everything in the game isn't here to pour resources into your pockets. Some of it is intended to be a challenge, and challenges with too high rewards, or sometimes any rewards, fall into the problem of players believing that they deserve those rewards, and thus the challenge needs to be toned down to their level. This literally happened the last time around. By eliminating the rewards except for cosmetic ones, the content can be designed as a pure challenge meant for people who want that challenge explicitly, and don't need to be bribed to participate in it. If you're not one of those people, then it is not for you. Since there are no rewards, there's nothing to lose by passing on it. But it isn't rubbish just because you happen to not be one of those players capable of enjoying a pure challenge.
While you're sitting around with nothing at all to do, maybe this would be a good time to sharpen your playing skills, or practicing higher content, or learning how your champs work. All of that is part of the game, and a part I don't believe you've completely mastered yet. Or you can take a break from the game, and come back next month in exactly the same state you are in now, wondering where the next giant bucket of rewards is supposed to fall from.
It's rubbish because not everyone has appropriate champs to participate. I can't afford to spend gold on 3* champs and I can't afford to spend t4 basics on my 4* champs so I don't have much to have a go. If I could get something back then maybe I could invest in my lower tier champs. I'm not asking for fantastic rewards but something for the effort would be nice, even if it were resources for those specific tier champs.
But this is why we chose to only use Vanity Rewards this year. This content is not mandatory, and when there are rewards like shards or catalysts, we know that many Summoners feel that they HAVE to do it.
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
It's honestly a test of the biggest wallets not skill. There are maybe a handful of people that could do this fight with a few revives let alone a solo.
Comments
Regarding yearly events being made worse. Summoner appreciation calendar was being exploited by people making new accounts and getting thousands of free units. That needed to change. Kabam made it over complicated this year, but it’s good that it wasn’t a calendar. Hopefully next year they swing in back to a middle ground and get it right, it’s better, but still has flaws.
Summoner showdown is an event purely about the competition. This way, you are only encouraged to fight if you actually want to compete, or if you want to enjoy the game and try challenging fights. (What an odd concept, enjoying the game?)
Spring cleaning event has, and always will be, an event for the spenders. I’m not sure why you’ve brought this up when it was the same as last year.
Gifting event hasn’t happened yet and you even admit you don’t know what will happen. So using it as an example of Kabam making yearly events worse is ludicrous in my opinion.
There's zero pressure for completing this event. Not completing it doesn't lose you anything of value. If you don't see value in doing it, then don't do it. It's just a pfp. Big woo.
I like it, myself. I'll do these fights for fun, and to sharpen my skills... or at least to get the feeling of the new timings. Playing Hulkbutter has been rougher for a while now.
I'd love to have more 'practice' content like this available, it's great.
https://playcontestofchampions.com/summoner-showdown-official-rules/
No we don't need to update rewards. You don't even need to play this if you don't want to. This is a qualifier for their global competition. These fights are there for enjoyement only.
So I could save up all those difficulties and get them on boosted gold week. 😬😬
What IS the point? To find the best player(s)? To promote the game? To celebrate the best player(s)? To generate excitement and renew interest for the player base? Maybe all of the above?
Those all have different goals and ways to achieve those goals. To me, I thought this event was designed to celebrate the best players while renewing or heightening excitement within the player base.
If covid wasn’t around, this would be an on stage event with audience.
To make this event achieve those goals, you need an audience. You do not gain an audience by adding no incentives for players to get involved outside of personal satisfaction and a profile pic. No one can deny that less people will do these fights this year as compared to last year. When people don’t bother, they don’t have a frame of reference (or even a desire) to look at the leaderboards. There is very little, “Wow, that fight took me X minutes and Y hits and these players are doing it in Z and N!” because less players will be participating.
Thus, less people will be following the winners and therefore less will be interested in seeing how it all plays out in the semi/final.
Last year players took on the easy version with a team of 5 because they got rewards. And since everyone likes to see how they stack up, they then looked at how these top players were doing a harder boss with 1 champ. This added interest. This added appreciation. This added a following to these top players.
This year does not have that.
It’s this same concept which I think made the finals boring to watch. The fights were just bosses loaded with nodes. We then see these bosses crush the top players. How is that exciting? How do we watch that and really gain an appreciation for their skill? The fights needed to be something most players can (or will) be familiar with just with added difficulty. Like a quest with all showdown bosses, beefed up a little, but they only bring 1 champ for all fights. That adds the aforementioned frame of reference for the audience.
TL;DR - No rewards = less players involved = less interest = weaker event
This year, we chose to make this optional, and make a challenge that is accessible to players of different progression levels with the reward being a profile pic that shows off your ability to conquer this challenge. It is a test of Skill and the reward is Bragging Rights.
A core idea I happen to believe in is that a game like MCOC which intends to have broad appeal should have something for everyone, not everything for someone. In other words, we don't imagine a hypothetical player and try to make everything good for them. We imagine lots of different players and we try to make some of the game appeal to each of them, even if those parts won't appeal to everyone else. Having things that most players won't like sounds bad, but the only way to avoid that is to narrow your focus to just a narrow slice of players. Having something that only 30% of players will like and 70% will hate is perfectly fine if something else appeals to a different 30%, and something else appeals to another different 30%, so eventually everyone gets something.
Challenge content will not appeal to everyone. But it makes for a healthier game if the game includes such content even if most players won't enjoy it, and if players understand that the only reason they get what they want is if other people get what they want as well, even if it is stuff they personally won't always like.
We, the players that enjoy challenge content, understand that not everyone will enjoy it. So we, the players that do enjoy such content think it is a good compromise if such content contains very little rewards, so the player who don't enjoy such content are not losing out on anything if they choose to skip it, and we, the players willing to throw ourselves at such content hope that the lack of rewards encourages those that do not like such content to let it pass them by.
I don't claim to represent all players who like challenging content, but I believe there are enough people who feel this way that it is reasonable to claim that my viewpoint is shared by a substantial number of players in this specific case.
First of all, what's the point? This is a common question that gets asked about every part of the game. And the answer is always the same, always obvious, but still seems to be something that eludes some people. The point is to challenge the strongest MCOC players. Not the "best" or the "most skilled" but the strongest. The strongest players in the game combine the strongest rosters with the highest skill playing that roster. The entire game is designed around rewarding the strongest players, as measured by the combination of their roster and how well they use that roster. Why should the Summoner Showdown be any different? It is what the game is.
Second, there's a strong presumption that the best part of the previous Summoner Showdown was the fact that lots of people participated, because no one cared about the actual top competitors. To be honest, I'm surprised that didn't generate several dozen disagrees all by itself. I'm sure that was true for some players, but that wasn't universally true.
You know how most Youtube content for this game is just average players doing slightly above average things that most players can relate to? Of course not, me either. Most spectator content for MCOC involves vastly stronger than average players exhibiting vastly above average rosters played with vastly higher than average skill. If the poster's theory of what attracts players was correct, we'd see a flood of average player content with large subscriber counts. We don't. It is not that they don't exist, they just don't attract a large following most of the time. Because if I want to watch an average player doing average things with an average roster, I'll watch myself play my second account with one hand.
In terms of representing a point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with the post. But it asserts its point of view as if it was the objective consensus reality, when it is probably a marginal point of view instead. If I don't like something and I say I don't like it, that's one thing. If I don't like something and I say the problem with this thing is that it is unlikeable that says something else entirely. The poster might have been trying to say the former, but their words said the latter, and you're not going to get a lot of support for that position.
Most if not all of the players with a competitive shot at Showdown are probably much stronger than I am. The players you hurt by removing rewards from Summer of Pain are progressing players, probably especially high tier Cavaliers who haven't formed their first T5CC yet or who haven't pulled an especially strong 6* champion to rank up yet. If Summer of Pain launched at the difficulty it was advertised to be, few if any of them would be getting those rewards.
Summer of Pain was *supposed* to be end game content with end game rewards. It ended up being higher than average difficulty content with Monty Haul tier rewards. Making it instead a zero reward bragging rights content would have actually made it closer to what a lot of players wanted from it, instead of farther away.
This is the lack of understanding many players have about how different players play the game. They'll say things like "take away the rewards from SoP" like that's a threat. For the players who want challenge content, that's no threat. And anything that makes rewards harder to get helps the players who are already very strong. They don't need help getting rewards. It is everyone else that does.
Your YouTube argument is a strawman and you are completely ignoring my main point. Frame of reference and context matter. The vast majority of YT views are of players that are attempting, or just attempted, content. Level 25’s weren’t watching SoP YT fights because they will not be doing that content; they don’t care, it’s not relevant to them. Even if they did, they don’t know if it’s because the player has an R3 Torch or because that player has crazy skill. They have not experienced the fight, thus don’t have context or a frame of reference that is relevant to them personally.
A recent poll suggests around 70% of players that normally would do the fights, will not even participate. How many of them have written the entire event off mentally? Obviously we don’t know. It’s a thesis, not scientific method. I say more people would follow the event if they participated. If you disagree, fine.
I personally will not be doing the fights. I haven’t even looked at the bosses or nodes. If someone tells me, “So and so did that fight in 125 hits.” I’ll know it was good but the number will be completely arbitrary to me. It will generate zero interest. Now if you said, “So and so beat Gwenmaster in 30 hits.” That means something to me. That generates excitement. Because I’ve experienced it.
You're the real winner.
I don't care that you're new. It didn't even occur to me until you mentioned it. I care that you feel free to tell people they don't actually know anything, even if they do, and then assert a bunch of things you couldn't possibly know as if they were facts. All while tossing out the claim of strawman usage for an analogous situation that I think most people will think is quite relevant.
You have every right to continue to post from that perspective. That's your right as a forum participant. But everyone else has the right to call you on it if they choose to. You don't have the right to be shielded from criticism.
What does a wallet help with in this event?