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Paragon or TB and stuck in Victory track? Check this out

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    DrZolaDrZola Posts: 8,799 ★★★★★

    DrZola said:

    Kappa2g said:

    Do you know how many of those are there from nefarious means? I think it's a bit of a jump to blame the Matchmaking for everything you see.

    Oh great, so we have BOTH a matchmaking and modding problem then
    I would be cautious about assuming that most of those accounts or even some of them are using “nefarious means.” It isn’t appropriate to make cheating allegations on forums and I don’t think OP has any way of knowing any more than you or I do about their legitimacy.

    Dr. Zola
    I didn't assume anything, and people are failing to twist my words. I said we don't know. The opposite of assuming, actually.
    Really, no twisting required. And I was responding to the other person who took the next step from your previous comments.

    Dr. Zola
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    DrZola said:

    Kappa2g said:

    Do you know how many of those are there from nefarious means? I think it's a bit of a jump to blame the Matchmaking for everything you see.

    Oh great, so we have BOTH a matchmaking and modding problem then
    I would be cautious about assuming that most of those accounts or even some of them are using “nefarious means.” It isn’t appropriate to make cheating allegations on forums and I don’t think OP has any way of knowing any more than you or I do about their legitimacy.

    Dr. Zola
    I didn't assume anything, and people are failing to twist my words. I said we don't know. The opposite of assuming, actually.
    Really, no twisting required. And I was responding to the other person who took the next step from your previous comments.

    Dr. Zola
    I was responding to the "twist" you commented on, not saying you specifically.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★

    I'm not making any such assertion. I'm saying, if you're going to provide evidence to support your case, you need to account for the possibility that some of those Accounts may be modding. Considering it's been a consistent issue since the inception of BGs, that's not unreasonable to consider.
    What you keep doing is comparing the size of all the Accounts to your own, as if the Leaderboard is supposed to line up from biggest to smallest, and that's not the way it works. People reach the GC by winning consecutive Matches. They don't get defaulted to it because they're bigger than other Accounts.
    If you belong there, earn your way up. That's all I can say. Posting about it over and over because you're personally offended by their progress is just redundant. We've talked about it for weeks.
    Also, if you consider skill to consist of only taking out Accounts much smaller than your own, then you don't want a fair competition. You want a default system. That's not what I want. I want a competition that awards performance. Not a junk measuring contest.

    So implying that some of those accounts might be there through alternative and unapproved means that you are implying that either Kabam is lying about removing modders every week or that they are doing a terrible job at it.

    I also dont see why you would think you know more about people reaching GC through unapproved means than kabam employees, such an assumption is a bit much, even for you.

    However, benefit of the doubt to you and let's pretend some of them didn't properly earn their way there, what about the rest of them and the rest of the lower accounts that aren't even in the video.

    I guarantee a decent percentage of them are in GC in a legit way and again are only there as they don't have to face the stronger rosters while the stronger rosters stay stuck in Victory track and getting less rewards.
    I'm not saying anything about Kabam's ability. I said you can't tell everything from the Leaderboard.
    As for your last point, you're saying you're stuck in the VT because you're not taking on Accounts like the ones you shared? Is that what you're saying?
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    LJF said:

    I'm not making any such assertion. I'm saying, if you're going to provide evidence to support your case, you need to account for the possibility that some of those Accounts may be modding. Considering it's been a consistent issue since the inception of BGs, that's not unreasonable to consider.
    What you keep doing is comparing the size of all the Accounts to your own, as if the Leaderboard is supposed to line up from biggest to smallest, and that's not the way it works. People reach the GC by winning consecutive Matches. They don't get defaulted to it because they're bigger than other Accounts.
    If you belong there, earn your way up. That's all I can say. Posting about it over and over because you're personally offended by their progress is just redundant. We've talked about it for weeks.
    Also, if you consider skill to consist of only taking out Accounts much smaller than your own, then you don't want a fair competition. You want a default system. That's not what I want. I want a competition that awards performance. Not a junk measuring contest.

    There are only two possible ways these accounts have reached Arcane 2: modding or matchmaking. There are no alternative explanations. Do you agree that both are problems that need to be solved?
    I don't need to reiterate my views on Matchmaking. I've posted a number of pages on it now.
    What I said was, they are based on the results in GC. Random Matchmaking, with whatever Bracket/Tier you're in. If they're advancing there, they're either earning it, or something else.
    Is modding an issue? Don't think anyone would debate that. What we're talking about here is the fact that people are offended they're in the GC to begin with, while their own Accounts are still in the VT. Literally nothing to do with their own Losses.
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Meh. Just get gud.
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    Meh. Just get gud.

    Or get smaller. ;)

    Dr. Zola
    Aye. But those rosters would usually have comparable skills when pitted against their own roster. It's been a struggle sure. This is the longest i have taken to get to GC. But it was fun
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    LJF said:

    LJF said:

    I'm not making any such assertion. I'm saying, if you're going to provide evidence to support your case, you need to account for the possibility that some of those Accounts may be modding. Considering it's been a consistent issue since the inception of BGs, that's not unreasonable to consider.
    What you keep doing is comparing the size of all the Accounts to your own, as if the Leaderboard is supposed to line up from biggest to smallest, and that's not the way it works. People reach the GC by winning consecutive Matches. They don't get defaulted to it because they're bigger than other Accounts.
    If you belong there, earn your way up. That's all I can say. Posting about it over and over because you're personally offended by their progress is just redundant. We've talked about it for weeks.
    Also, if you consider skill to consist of only taking out Accounts much smaller than your own, then you don't want a fair competition. You want a default system. That's not what I want. I want a competition that awards performance. Not a junk measuring contest.

    There are only two possible ways these accounts have reached Arcane 2: modding or matchmaking. There are no alternative explanations. Do you agree that both are problems that need to be solved?
    I don't need to reiterate my views on Matchmaking. I've posted a number of pages on it now.
    What I said was, they are based on the results in GC. Random Matchmaking, with whatever Bracket/Tier you're in. If they're advancing there, they're either earning it, or something else.
    Is modding an issue? Don't think anyone would debate that. What we're talking about here is the fact that people are offended they're in the GC to begin with, while their own Accounts are still in the VT. Literally nothing to do with their own Losses.



    Don't expect everyone to read your 30,000+ post history to determine your views. In any event, I read this as you agreeing that there are no alternative explanations to these accounts being in Arcane 2 beyond modding and matchmaking. Please let me know if you disagree.

    VT Matches are being mitigated by something. That much is clear. Hence the days and days of debates.
    In the GC, they're facing random Matches within the Tiers. So if they're advancing past the first Tier in the GC, they're likely doing it on skill. Or other means.
    What the OP is pointing out is that they believe these Accounts shouldn't be in the GC while bigger Accounts are stuck in the VT. What I'm talking about is further to that.
    DrZola said:

    I'm not making any such assertion. I'm saying, if you're going to provide evidence to support your case, you need to account for the possibility that some of those Accounts may be modding. Considering it's been a consistent issue since the inception of BGs, that's not unreasonable to consider.
    What you keep doing is comparing the size of all the Accounts to your own, as if the Leaderboard is supposed to line up from biggest to smallest, and that's not the way it works. People reach the GC by winning consecutive Matches. They don't get defaulted to it because they're bigger than other Accounts.
    If you belong there, earn your way up. That's all I can say. Posting about it over and over because you're personally offended by their progress is just redundant. We've talked about it for weeks.
    Also, if you consider skill to consist of only taking out Accounts much smaller than your own, then you don't want a fair competition. You want a default system. That's not what I want. I want a competition that awards performance. Not a junk measuring contest.

    So implying that some of those accounts might be there through alternative and unapproved means that you are implying that either Kabam is lying about removing modders every week or that they are doing a terrible job at it.

    I also dont see why you would think you know more about people reaching GC through unapproved means than kabam employees, such an assumption is a bit much, even for you.

    However, benefit of the doubt to you and let's pretend some of them didn't properly earn their way there, what about the rest of them and the rest of the lower accounts that aren't even in the video.

    I guarantee a decent percentage of them are in GC in a legit way and again are only there as they don't have to face the stronger rosters while the stronger rosters stay stuck in Victory track and getting less rewards.
    I'm not saying anything about Kabam's ability. I said you can't tell everything from the Leaderboard.
    As for your last point, you're saying you're stuck in the VT because you're not taking on Accounts like the ones you shared? Is that what you're saying?
    I realize this is a charged issue, but I don’t think using ad hominems like directly questioning people’s game abilities or saying they are only “stuck” because they can’t bully smaller accounts is what we are supposed to be doing on forums.

    It isn’t a leap to conclude that accounts with less than 500K rating have zero business in Arcane without a ton of help from matchmaking. I think someone who wants to safeguard the little guy would even agree that’s way too far to go.

    Dr. Zola
    I don't think it's questioning people's abilities to look at the results on paper. It's logical. If they were winning their Matches, they'd be in the GC by now.
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    Disthene_TDisthene_T Posts: 36
    Oh, this all makes sense now! The matchmaking is designed to limit how many people make it to Gladiator Circuit at all! Kabam is trying to starve off the supply of trophy tokens that have been pumping everyone up.

    The reason these low accounts are in Arcane 2 is because there is no one in Arceane 3 and lower. This means less than 2500 players are in GC. The weak accounts getting through are just a minor byproduct. It doesn't matter if a few dozen accounts get enormous rewards while cavalier or early thronebreaker if it helps prevent hundreds or thousands from getting them. And since the store prices are bad at those ranks, what you buy has less impact. Then after they R3 a few more 6 stars, they will be in the same boat as the late thronebreakers and paragons (stuck in gold).

    This is for the good of the economy. The value of sig stone, rank up materials and shard had been plummeting because people had "too much" trophy tokens. This is market correction.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    Denslo500 said:

    @Chatterofforums you have me convinced. It matches my experience too. I am still matching loaded Paragon accounts (I am a very early Paragon) and they are making smart matches, have perfect masteries for meta, and great accounts for meta. I am in Bronze II.
    I'm lazy and don't deserve better and my masteries are all wrong for meta, but the guys I'm matching with should be GC easy.

    @GroundedWisdom I've tried to support your side on this, but . . . dude. I guess you did allow for "nefarious", so you are at least in the "nefarious or broken" camp now.

    Encouraging young players is good, but driving out the long term spenders will kill the game.

    I'm not driving anyone from anything. I'm talking about the system as it is now, and pointing out the lack of other perspectives.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    There's more than one way to build a Roster. Not only vertically.
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    DanielRandDanielRand Posts: 441 ★★★★

    There's more than one way to build a Roster. Not only vertically.

    Please explain how else you build a roster other than to grow it.

    Also interested in your most likely contradictory commentary on the following: "Water is wet"
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★

    There's more than one way to build a Roster. Not only vertically.

    Please explain how else you build a roster other than to grow it.

    Also interested in your most likely contradictory commentary on the following: "Water is wet"
    You build a Roster for BGs in two ways. The most obvious is Ranking Champs higher. That would be what I referred to as vertically. The second way would be expansive, or horizontally. It's not just about having the highest Champs, especially when those numbers are few because of new Titles. It's also about Ranking as many options as high as possible to compete in whatever meta is being run that Season.
    You need many options to increase success in BGs. Enough to account for drafts, Bans, Nodes, choices, whatever the situation calls for.
    Having an Account with a few highly-Ranked Champs is not enough to compete in BGs with more filled-out Rosters.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Kabam Jax said:

    Hey Summoners!

    A bit of a story for you...

    One of the members of the game team messaged me last night with this thread (in our off-hours) and wanted me to pass along that they investigated the leaderboard after watching this video and the first ten accounts mentioned in the vid, "literally every single one of them was banned by our sweep today."

    So a couple things to keep in mind:
    1. Bans happen in waves, not continuously all the time.
    2. "The system that bans [cheaters] and the system that [removes] them from the leaderboard is not the same system," and as we've talked about before, it takes some time to remove those accounts visibly from the leaderboards.

    I know the intention with this video is more to call out the matchmaking and: we hear you.

    We've stated before that matchmaking is constantly being evaluated and there are adjustments being planned for coming seasons; we've seen the constant conversation in the forums over the last month+. It is, however, worth noting that there has not been a single suggestion that everyone has unanimously agreed with. This is a solution that doesn't seem to have a solution to appease everyone; and therein lies the challenge.

    "Fair matchmaking" is defined differently by everyone and, in some cases, Summoners demanding "fair matchmaking" are asking for matchmaking that best suits them.

    We've also chatted about how BG is the first mode that isn't meant to be won 100% of the time. Every other game mode (excluding AW), you dedicate time and energy and you will end up with a W in the end. Because you are head-to-head with other Summoners, inevitably 50% of you are losing. It is completely reasonable that this shift in gameplay mentality causes discomfort and frustration.

    Now, none of this is in defense of the current matchmaking - like I said, there are adjustments in the works - these are simply a few additional considerations on the topic.

    Happy Friday, everyone.

    I mentioned before, I think a new prestige where the top 30 characters of every player get into, instead of only the top 5 champs, its enough to make the matchmaking better, it fixes sandbagging and fixes the big differences between players that we are experiencing.

    GC has a lot of low level acccs because the big ones are in VT yet, so when matchmaking gets fixed, GC would be aswell
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,393 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    There's more than one way to build a Roster. Not only vertically.

    Please explain how else you build a roster other than to grow it.

    Also interested in your most likely contradictory commentary on the following: "Water is wet"
    You build a Roster for BGs in two ways. The most obvious is Ranking Champs higher. That would be what I referred to as vertically. The second way would be expansive, or horizontally. It's not just about having the highest Champs, especially when those numbers are few because of new Titles. It's also about Ranking as many options as high as possible to compete in whatever meta is being run that Season.
    You need many options to increase success in BGs. Enough to account for drafts, Bans, Nodes, choices, whatever the situation calls for.
    Having an Account with a few highly-Ranked Champs is not enough to compete in BGs with more filled-out Rosters.
    “Having an Account with a few highly-Ranked Champs is not enough to compete in BGs with more filled-out Rosters.”

    As you progress to higher levels, that’s true.

    To be fair, this would be 100% true across all levels in a fully competitive mode. But at lower levels—as evidenced by many of the accounts in Arcane already—getting lucky with your first several 6* and having a decent batch of 5* champs is all it takes to progress through VT. At that level, it’s more a matter of game knowledge and crystal Bingo.

    And that’s something for the team to decide as a policy matter: should that level of shallow roster development be sufficient to progress as much as it currently is? Does the game need small accounts to play and progress more than it needs veteran accounts to do so? Is this a mode designed for everyone or certain classes of Summoners?

    Here’s hoping it’s as much a matter of concern as Ajax indicates it is.

    Dr. Zola
    People progress based on how they perform withing the competition. Not who feels they deserve to progress based on their Roster. That's what makes it a competition. We don't receive what the majority thinks we deserve. We receive what we earn within the confinement of fair play. As Jax indicated, what is seen as fair is a varying definition, but barring some kind of inappropriate manipulating, they're earning their Rewards. That much is on paper, in the data, and can't be disputed by any reasonable mind. Nor can anyone speak for their Matches being a cake walk based on the comparison of extreme differences.
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