Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

Stature · March 2023

DNA3000 said:
So yes, the net effect will be to place a roadblock in the game that spenders will be able to get past, to some degree. However, that's not the same thing as saying it is there to make money. Allowing spenders to get something for their spending that non-spenders can't get is how we convince players to spend. The devs do not want thousands of spenders to just blow past their hardest content, because that money isn't worth it. They just can't take too many steps to prevent that from happening, or risk their spenders deciding spending isn't worth it.

Ironman3000 said:
If "an average Paragon player" shouldn't be able to complete content early w/ farmed revives, should "an average Paragon player" be able to complete content w/ purchased revives?

What this change is saying is, "yes, an average Paragon player can do the content as long as they purchase the revives and not get them for free".

In a microtransaction based game with no ads, why would you ever expect the answer to that question to be no?

The way I read it, with every piece of content, it is expected that some % of the player base will be able to do it without spending. Right now the % of the player base completing the content without spending is higher than what was expected - because there is a cheat code which allows higher than planned access to revives.

When it is said that "this trivializes content" or "rewards will have to be diluted", the implication is that more people than planned are completing the content and getting the rewards - without spending. Spending is a way around this. They can leave the revives as it is, let more people finish the content but reduce the rewards - so next time you have to buy the r4-5 gem in one of the deals or from the unit store instead of getting it for completing V3. That is what diluting rewards means, not that the same champs or rank up materials will not be available, just that you'll have to pay for them.

Eventually all players will get access to everything available in the game - that's the nature of a progression game. Only thing the game can sell is early access to resources. If there is a cheat code around this, it will obviously be plugged at some point.

Dirty_Dozz · March 2023

Jefechuta said:

b) They would be giving a good alternative if this was 2017-2019, since the game as evolved but the potions and revives didnt got updated, 375 HP potions are useless unless you have Sigil so you can trade 25 for the big HP potion.

Even this isn't even that great, because you can only make that trade once a month, maybe twice if there's an overlap. So yeah, while it's better to be able to trade ~10k healing for a total of 25k, that's still only a super infrequent thing.

Demonzfyre · March 2023

jdeck59 said:
@Demonzfyre you made it clear that you do not do end game content and therefore this doesn't affect you. Only words anyone needs to hear

When did I make it clear? When I said I've done a path in abyss and Lab? Having all story content done except exploration of act 6 which isn't end game? I've done all the EoP fights before and gauntlet. Im 2/6 on V3 Carinas. I do map 8 in AQ, I've played as high as plat 1 in AW. So... I'm not sure how I made it clear that I don't do high end content. But whatever.

Jesusnwo · March 2023

People complaining about sandbagging but ya wanna get unlimited revives to help ya beat the game hypocrites

ThePharcide · March 2023

Sidd777 said:
I’d be interested to know across how many players the 100k to 300k revives are farmed daily given how big the playerbase is

Let’s say for argument sake there is 300,000 active players. That’s 1 revive per person.

Now let’s say there is 2,000,000 players. That is 6 people farming all those.

Let’s say there is 10k everest players that comes out to them farming 30 a day.

Or let’s say there is only 1,000 everest players that’s them farming 300 a day.

But honestly let’s get real. 300k revives farmed a day is a blatant lie.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Wiredawg1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
Although if you can find a team that can test every single report with every single gaming scenario and every single device being used, I'd be happy to see the results. I hear monkeys with typewriters are effective....eventually.
Not that hard with 1 of the platforms used. The other yea that is hard to do. Apple it’s not as all it’s devices use 1 operating system’s software. Android yea that is harder to do. And considering the input issue per kabam and the player base been centered around the apple platform shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. Then again. I know it’s not as I use to troubleshoot circuits, phones, and computers for the military
I work with phones and computers. There are over 1000 companies that have almost 25k different Android phones on the market. All with varying specs and systems. Now, you could narrow that down by what's supported and most commonly used, but you're still at a loss for any other variable going on. Processor, RAM, connection, conflicting Apps or other Apps being run, etc.
Apple is a little easier to narrow down, but not as simple. It may be the same OS, depending on the version of iOS installed, but it's not foolproof. It's also not only Apple that is experiencing issues. Android has had lag for many, many years.
Are there failings? Sure. They're not perfect. All they can do is the best they can and move forward. A bug-free game is a great hope to have, but it's not realistic with as many moving parts as this one. Eventually something will come up.
So now you work on phones and work in food service too lol. Get real dude. You just now trolling

I'm 42. I've done many things.
I was trained in the food industry, cooking 1200 meals a day. I was planning on getting my Red Seal, then life took a different turn. Now I work with computers, cell phones, and tablets.

johnlaw3742 · March 2023

Who needs revives when we are getting 6* Wolverine today?

pseudosane · March 2023

thepiggy said:
Remember a time when we’d get offers to build our rosters so we can clear content instead of force feeding content for a progressional title only so we can buy important offers?

What the heck happened to the priority of this game? It went from valuing rosters to chasing arbitrary titles that mean nothing.

And the game runs at a snail’s pace anyway except every year or so we get forced into time sensitive broken content like SOP or EOP or Carina’s that gives really important resources so we don’t fall behind except that they won’t be worth anything 6-8 months later.

What are we doing?

thats the problem. Offers went from nice to have to needed , during these holiday event sales. Big evolution.

Asim38 · March 2023

johnlaw3742 said:
Who needs revives when we are getting 6* Wolverine today?

Lol you mean bots are getting 6 star Wolverine today (or in 3 days)

BigPoppaCBONE · March 2023

I semi-regularly use an energy refill to grab revives, all fired up to use a bit of free time to get after some content, then my gaf peters out once I remember that I hate doing long-form content anymore and I skip it in favor of short-form fluff where I don't even need revives unless I'm messing around with a suboptimal champ I like. If the fights will be longer or more complex than a monthly event fight, or require a ranked up niche champ to make palatable, I doubt I'll end up doing it, unless I luck out and the optimal champ to finish quickly is one that I have ranked up AND like to play.

KingInBlack said:
Here's something I'd love to hear from the devs, what change in content clearing are you expecting with this move? I know we'll never get the honest answer of more people buying units for revives but what are the alternatives really?

People relentlessly practice and fail deep into quests using revives to get there and restart? Not happening.

It takes significantly longer to build an inventory and therefore content stays uncleared longer? Likely to happen, but also result in the content never being cleared with design time and cost made less use of.

Players just don't bother anymore because they know the likelihood of needing to burn units or worse buy units when they get stuck? This is most likely as it already happens.

I'd really love to hear not just their hilariously disingenuous reasoning behind making this change, but what result they're after by making it. Saying revive spamming bad while leaving the option there through other means doesn't add up, what do they think players will do when they keep dying other than revive?

Ravens20 · March 2023

WhoDaPoo said:
Increase the cap to 99 would be a great start. One reason to spam revive farming is from the moment you start collecting you have like 15 days to use them.

Increasing cap would be nice

BigPoppaCBONE · March 2023

ThePharcide said:

Sidd777 said:
I’d be interested to know across how many players the 100k to 300k revives are farmed daily given how big the playerbase is
Let’s say for argument sake there is 300,000 active players. That’s 1 revive per person.

Now let’s say there is 2,000,000 players. That is 6 people farming all those.

Let’s say there is 10k everest players that comes out to them farming 30 a day.

Or let’s say there is only 1,000 everest players that’s them farming 300 a day.

But honestly let’s get real. 300k revives farmed a day is a blatant lie.

They need to give more data to give their analysis some weight and context. Are they saying that there are 300k revives added to inventory/stash in a day, full stop? I'd believe that.

300k revives picked up in Acts 1 - 3 by Cavalier and above players? Doesn't sound likely and I'd want to see more data and analysis. What are they considering farming and what constitutes spam? Are they saying thousands of people have hundreds of revives and are getting a few hits in, dying and then reviving over and over again to get through the everest content? That doesn't sound likely.

What's the revive use threshold before you're considered a spammer? More than one? More than 20? Per fight or per path? What about the boss?

Emilia90 · March 2023

Jefechuta said:
After reading all the post I just came to some conclussions:

1. The theory of the changes is good, remove the revive farming on Acts 1 to 3 is the best choice they could do to keep the game alive, otherwise every content would be easier than supposed to be, BUT, there are 2 main problems with the changes:

a) The game itself is completely bugged, which means people are using more resources than they should, probably without the problems with AI and Inputs, the amount of revives and health potions used would be the half or less, so players right now need those revives more than ever, so I would wait for Kabam to make this changes.

b) They would be giving a good alternative if this was 2017-2019, since the game as evolved but the potions and revives didnt got updated, 375 HP potions are useless unless you have Sigil so you can trade 25 for the big HP potion.
Champion health pools nowadays are at least at 30k, so it starts doing something after Lvl 3 Health Potions, below that is nothing, so the minimum Kabam should give for the easy run should be at least 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion, with a high chance to get another one, this in the easiest one, this said, they should also have more difficulties, instead of Easy and Hard, 4 at least with this rewards:

Easy: Playing vs 4* Champs

1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to
2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

Normal: Playing vs 5* Champs

1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 4 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to
2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

Hard: Playing vs 6* Champs

1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 15% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to.
2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

Very Hard: Playing vs 7* Champs

1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 45% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to.
2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.

I think this would make the change way better.

And additionally if the players are too greedy, make a Objective for every difficulty were if you do all the Daily Quests of the week you get an extra reward, something like:

Easy: 1 Lvl 4 HP Pot and 1 additional Lvl 1 Revive
Normal: 1 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 1 Lvl 2 Revive
Hard: 2 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 2 Lvl 2 Revives
Very Hard: 1 Lvl 6 Pot and 1 Lvl 3 Revive

But this last part would be just if Kabam is generous enough to make it.

2. The community is too used to farming revives, people exploits too much this method and they are acting like when you start saying "No, you cant get that" to a spoiled child and they start screaming at the store, something like that, so everybody is acting like "Yeah Kabam is not being comprehensive!" but neither the players are, and its very clear a lot of you dont really understand how some things work or should work like, and when someone tries to explain it the best way they can, you all just act like you are much more wiser because you completed determinated content in game with a good bunch of revives that you farmed, when that doesnt give you any real knowledge at all about anything but on how many revives you needed to do that content and how hard that content was for you but not how hard it should be.

So I'll give some explanations here

There is something called P2F, Pay 2 Fast, where the game is perfectly doable without spending money on it, but you can do it faster if you spend money, which is the case of MCOC.
The problem is that a lot of people by using this method of farming thinks that you must be able to do the content as fast as you can, where thats not the case, not because I say it but because it is like that, thats why when Abyss came out, the people that were able to do it first were awarded in some ways, because It is hard content that a lot of people has undone cause it is very hard and you need a preparation time for it.

Gauntlet or EoP are much easier Everest Content, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do it as soon as it goes out, because it is not meant that way, neither to be able to be done for everybody, but for the ones more skilled and with bigger and better rosters, so the point is, you want to do it the first day or the first week because you want the rewards and you want the prestige it gaves to you for the rest of the content like Alliance? Nice, then you want to do faster the content that is not supposed to be done fast, what that means? You fall in the group of people that would Pay 2 Fast, so you spend if you want to do something faster than the rest of the people, and thats how it works, you can like it or not, but this is not something that you can argue about, it is just how it is.

So, you dont want to spend money? Then you have to farm like every game that works this way, and that takes time, like every game that works this way, the problem here is that revive farming was a WAY FASTER way that it should be, because you could get 100 revives in two days, I got 20 revives in just some hours on auto-fight, If you think about that objectively, that is COMPLETELY insane, and Kabam usually acts like "Yeah thats not supposed to be like that" when they do changes, but THIS is not that case, you shouldnt be able to farm such a useful resource that easily and that fast, and again, THATS HOW IT IS, its not something you can argue about.

So for all the people that want to keep their accounts at the top places, they have to do the same the top places do, which is either spending on the game or using your time playing arenas to get Units to be able to buy this revives, you dont like it because it is slower or harder than doing autofights on Act 2 and 3? Well, obviously you are not going to like it but that doesnt mean it is unfair.

So with this change Kabam fixes 2 problems:

1. The tremendous exploit of farming revives on Acts that you shouldnt be repeating for that matter, getting a ton of valuable resources on a couple of hours.
2. The problem with their Everest Content, where people that is not even Paragon being able to do Carina's Challenges (which ALWAYS were meant for the people with EVERYTHING done, so they still have hard things to do) just spamming revives, when again, it is content that isnt supposed to be done the first day.

So the final conclussion after all I said is that neither the players and Kabam are being comprehensive.

And Im sorry if you are disagree, but again, this is not about opinions, this is about how the game works, and about how the game should work, I just hope that Kabam waits till they fix the bugs to make this change and when they make it, they upgrade the Daily Quest so it fits better with the actual state of the game.

Imagine returning to the same first day comments when that isn’t the case for anything mentioned. It’s been months and even years for some of the content and they still require spamming revives.

That one cyclops challenge with a 3* REQUIRES you to spam revives since he sucks and you also get screwed on the collector even if you play perfectly (even the best players did this with many many revives). 4* LoL challenges require a ton of revives no matter how well you play

It’s amazing how you just keep reiterating the same tone deaf points with no care. Hard content and content that forces you to spend revives regardless of how good you play are not equivalent

EOP challenges could be out for another year and they would still be just as difficult to do unless you have every objective champ at rank 4/5 (even so, it would take a lot since they’re very inoptimal for the fights). Unless what you’re suggesting is that everyone waits until the content is outdated and able to be completed itemless

MavRCK_ · March 2023

1) Could the inventory limit on revives be raised significantly to 30 or 40?

2) I'm not a huge spender - but there was a time when an odin or two or three per year was an annual event. I've found that the game has progressed to a state where massive spending gives you an advantage and spending a moderate, reasonable amount does not and is neither impactful nor meaningful. I imagine have occasional spenders of a large volume is important to the health of the game and the finances of the company, so perhaps making changes that encourage rather than discourage players in my position would be good for the game.

TheTalents · March 2023

For people that are saying stop making content that is a revive dump, I disagree. My argument is to leave things the way they are now and continue to make content that involves revives.

If all the content can be done without needing revives or very few for most players, that will take the fun out the game. I don't mind using units for hard content but I certainly needed free revives for the Carina's. There wasn't much of an option if I wanted to compete with the rest of the top 20 alliance players. If you remove the revives from early content it will come back to bite Kabam and less spending will be on top of the list.

Coppin · March 2023

thepiggy said:
Does anything ever actually change because we’ve done the same song-and-dance every year since 12.0.

Sudden major change to the detriment of players followed by “we heard you” and a promise of more balance.

Nerfing OGs then making Blade/Corvus/Ghost, removing defender diversity, removing year round gifting, incentivizing Corvus use in map 7 then removing it, not updating alliance potions in forever then forcing unit purchases…I forget most of it.

Kabam creates a problem, incentivizes a solution then blames players for adapting then removes the solution and this cycle goes on and on forever and nothing changes no matter how much they promise balance and transparency. We’ll be doing this same dance every 10-12 months until the game closes.

Farming has become a necessity because you can’t make balanced content because you let loose broken champs that you make a ton of money on. Why do players have to suffer for this? This game is supposed to be fun, we’re not supposed to be slaves to a full time gaming job and farming is already time consuming enough.

This is one of those most hostile anti-player moves you can think of. What’s next? 5 champi slots and 70 energy bars were never intended?

The decision is already taken, now we are just bargaining (not even asking for a compromise.. is not the same as bargaining) for a significant change in stash volume and availability of revives.. thinking that argueing between us will solve anything is surreal...

Searmenis · March 2023

BigPoppaCBONE said:

ThePharcide said:

Sidd777 said:
I’d be interested to know across how many players the 100k to 300k revives are farmed daily given how big the playerbase is
Let’s say for argument sake there is 300,000 active players. That’s 1 revive per person.

Now let’s say there is 2,000,000 players. That is 6 people farming all those.

Let’s say there is 10k everest players that comes out to them farming 30 a day.

Or let’s say there is only 1,000 everest players that’s them farming 300 a day.

But honestly let’s get real. 300k revives farmed a day is a blatant lie.
They need to give more data to give their analysis some weight and context. Are they saying that there are 300k revives added to inventory/stash in a day, full stop? I'd believe that.

300k revives picked up in Acts 1 - 3 by Cavalier and above players? Doesn't sound likely and I'd want to see more data and analysis. What are they considering farming and what constitutes spam? Are they saying thousands of people have hundreds of revives and are getting a few hits in, dying and then reviving over and over again to get through the everest content? That doesn't sound likely.

What's the revive use threshold before you're considered a spammer? More than one? More than 20? Per fight or per path? What about the boss?

That's exactly how you present a "problem": you provide information for the general, biggest set, that when applied to the unit is not, depending of how many units consist this group, something that we don't know. If the group is 10 people, 300k is outrageous big. If the group is about 150k players,...oh wait, it s 150 k players isn't it? That s why kabam Compromises and gives us 1 revive with a chance of 2, instead of the 2 we were grinding all along!

This is a nice Russell's Paradox application actually.

Searmenis · March 2023

Actually no, it's the Sorites Paradox, how many players farming 300k revives are needed to make it a problem?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

thepiggy said:
Does anything ever actually change because we’ve done the same song-and-dance every year since 12.0.

Sudden major change to the detriment of players followed by “we heard you” and a promise of more balance.

Nerfing OGs then making Blade/Corvus/Ghost, removing defender diversity, removing year round gifting, incentivizing Corvus use in map 7 then removing it, not updating alliance potions in forever then forcing unit purchases…I forget most of it.

Kabam creates a problem, incentivizes a solution then blames players for adapting then removes the solution and this cycle goes on and on forever and nothing changes no matter how much they promise balance and transparency. We’ll be doing this same dance every 10-12 months until the game closes.

Farming has become a necessity because you can’t make balanced content because you let loose broken champs that you make a ton of money on. Why do players have to suffer for this? This game is supposed to be fun, we’re not supposed to be slaves to a full time gaming job and farming is already time consuming enough.

This is one of those most hostile anti-player moves you can think of. What’s next? 5 champi slots and 70 energy bars were never intended?

There's a fundamental difference between design intentions and what's been born from habit. 5 slots and 70 Energy have been an intended aspect for as long as is established. When you're talking about farming lower content, that was never a part of the intended design. It was designed with the Players who are at that stage in mind. They do the content to 100%, and then move on to future content, presumably. We still have access to it for whatever reason we feel like doing it again, but when that reason creates a situation that undermines the objective availability of valuable Resources, that's a problem that doesn't fall under "Part of the game so it's intended.".

Ironman3000 · March 2023

300K is a huge number...if you don't think about the millions of accounts in the game.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

How many of those are active?

Eb0ny-O-M4w · March 2023

Ironman3000 said:
300K is a huge number...if you don't think about the millions of accounts in the game.

It's their way of making us think this is actually a big number, when in reality it really isn't.
If there are 300k players login daily, then 300k revives would be ONLY 1 revive per account, per day.

And then here's a new quest giving us precisely 1 revive per day as well ...

Ironman3000 · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
How many of those are active?

More than 300k.

JediTrix5 · March 2023

I have no problem with the changes moving forward. Things change. We adjust.

However, the change isn’t fair to those of us who haven’t farmed and completed things like EoP Carina challenges yet. So by not abusing the system and racing to do everything immediately I’m being put at an unfair disadvantage?

Chobbly · March 2023

JediTrix5 said:
I have no problem with the changes moving forward. Things change. We adjust.

However, the change isn’t fair to those of us who haven’t farmed and completed things like EoP Carina challenges yet. So by not abusing the system and racing to do everything immediately I’m being put at an unfair disadvantage?

I think that's a very fair question @JediTrix5 and I hoped it doesn't get lost in the morass of posts on the subject.

The decision doesn't help new or upcoming players or those who haven't already completed that content. I think this is where there is an argument for a minor rebalancing of some content going forwards.

Mackey · March 2023

JediTrix5 said:
I However, the change isn’t fair to those of us who haven’t farmed and completed things like EoP Carina challenges yet. So by not abusing the system and racing to do everything immediately I’m being put at an unfair disadvantage?

Now that's something I never thought of, I'm currently debating whether to get the EoP done while the farming option is still there but I just don't have the time to farm that many in such a short window.... and this is the thing with this whole farming situation, most people use the likes of 3.2.6 to farm revives but a good amount of them players don't do it all day everyday, it's far too time consuming (and boring). I like that there is a solid place to farm revives, a place which I'll visit when I have some time to do so

Maybe a good compromise would be to leave it as is and then any new "everest" content that gets released has a limit on how many revives one can use in there, that would still render the farming option pointless while maintaining difficulty. The only thing here is that those folk who want spend a fortune on revives to push through it, won't be able to... which I don't see kabam doing

JediTrix5 · March 2023

Mackey said:

Maybe a good compromise would be to leave it as is and then any new "everest" content that gets released has a limit on how many revives one can use in there, that would still render the farming option pointless while maintaining difficulty. The only thing here is that those folk who want spend a fortune on revives to push through it, won't be able to... which I don't see kabam doing

I like the idea of limiting revives on future content. We’ve actually seen this with recent SQ objectives where we need to solo bosses.

And I agree this doesn’t align with what we are all assuming is the driving factor of this change - to sell more units/revives.

Perhaps future Everest content uses some special revive that is only obtainable through units? Think something like Abyss specific revives.

Mackey · March 2023

JediTrix5 said:

Mackey said:

Maybe a good compromise would be to leave it as is and then any new "everest" content that gets released has a limit on how many revives one can use in there, that would still render the farming option pointless while maintaining difficulty. The only thing here is that those folk who want spend a fortune on revives to push through it, won't be able to... which I don't see kabam doing
I like the idea of limiting revives on future content. We’ve actually seen this with recent SQ objectives where we need to solo bosses.

And I agree this doesn’t align with what we are all assuming is the driving factor of this change - to sell more units/revives.

Perhaps future Everest content uses some special revive that is only obtainable through units? Think something like Abyss specific revives.

Yeah something like that could work. Only allowed to use *20 revives (level 1 or 2) bur you can buy quest specific revives for units and use an unlimited amount of them

Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

Comments