Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

Wozzle007 · March 2023

Ironman3000 said:
Why is farming units from arena to buy revives good and farming 3.2.6 for revives bad?

I’m not for this change at all, but realistically there’s a difference in what it takes to farm arena versus 3.2.6. You have to actively put effort into time farming units from arena. You can autofight through 3.2.6 so doesn’t take as much effort. I’m not sure on the time wise, but I would guess it takes far less time to farm 1 revive, than it does to earn 40 units from arena to buy a revive. Also if people are using units from arena for revives, they’re not hoarding them for big 4th July / Cyber Weekend unit deals, so if they want anything will need to buy units instead. See that’s where they get ya!

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else

I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.

Ironman3000 · March 2023

Wozzle007 said:

Ironman3000 said:
Why is farming units from arena to buy revives good and farming 3.2.6 for revives bad?
I’m not for this change at all, but realistically there’s a difference in what it takes to farm arena versus 3.2.6. You have to actively put effort into time farming units from arena. You can autofight through 3.2.6 so doesn’t take as much effort. I’m not sure on the time wise, but I would guess it takes far less time to farm 1 revive, than it does to earn 40 units from arena to buy a revive. Also if people are using units from arena for revives, they’re not hoarding them for big 4th July / Cyber Weekend unit deals, so if they want anything will need to buy units instead. See that’s where they get ya!

Oh, I get the difference but the way some are talking about it makes it seem like buy revives is the noble choice and farming them is for the peasants.

Pikolu · March 2023

Graves_3 said:

Pikolu said:

DrZola said:
I think I can name the *problem*…but I’d like to know what you think the real problem is first.

Dr. Zola
To add my 2 cents, this isn't the *problem* but one of the big problems with the game is how trivialized endgame content has become due to revive farming. A low-skill thronebreaker who has 1-2 r4s is capable of getting a r5 for free if they just dedicate the time to farm revives and do the carina challenges. Due to this, everest content just provides easy free rewards for pretty much anyone willing to dedicate that time. I would like to mention that carina challenge rewards are far better than 2 months of EQ rewards you could potentially miss out on if youre farming a ton, but as DNA said earlier, people can still farm and get EQ/BGs done in a timely manner.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I really would like to know what eligible % of the playerbase has beaten carinas vol 3. This % is probably very high, not due to the spamming of revives, but to the ease of gathering revives. If the percentage is high, then kabam has to ask themselves seriously if they want the next abyss/EoP/Carinas to just give great rewards that would be valuable to endgame players, or give okay rewards because non-endgame players will also have easy access to those rewards as well.

While it does suck that revive farming is going away, I'd rather see great rewards than watered-down rewards for everest content.

You wrote something interesting there. “What % of eligible player base beat Carina challenges?” That would ask the question as to what eligibility requirement was set for said content? If requirement was TB+ then it doesn’t matter if they have low skill with 0 r4 or someone with skills like MSD/bero/swedeah with 40 r4’s. If kabam had strict requirements ok who could clear, they could just specify that you need 15r4’s to enter the quest and be done with it. As for skill, I don’t know if they can effectively create a gate which requires having a certain skill cap without restricting item usage.
So again what is the eligibility requirement if you are talking about eligible % of player base?

Eligibility is anyone who has access to them. For the statistics, I don't care for the Cav- players who will obviously bring the percentage down because they can't even try. If you're TB, you are eligible to do carina challenges.

AmaadAkira · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.

Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.

I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.

benshb · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.

You have conveniently ignored the comparison part of the question, that's where I explain the "why".
Also, early game completion AND exploration, prior even to 3.2.6 gives plenty of revieves, full stash or so, and with the increasing availability of 4-5-6 star champions and rankup materials, new players should not have to "farm" revives up until 5.4 or beyond. And then, they would already be going back several story quests to farm for items.
That is the "how" part, like how would it (the revive farming) be meant for newer players .

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
You have conveniently ignored the comparison part of the question, that's where I explain the "why".
Also, early game completion AND exploration, prior even to 3.2.6 gives plenty of revieves, full stash or so, and with the increasing availability of 4-5-6 star champions and rankup materials, new players should not have to "farm" revives up until 5.4 or beyond. And then, they would already be going back several story quests to farm for items.
That is the "how" part, like how would it (the revive farming) be meant for newer players .

That's the point. It isn't intended for them to "farm", although it wasn't explicitly prohibited. It was meant for them to use to complete the content. Not sure why you thought I meant it was intended for them alone to farm.

DrZola · March 2023

Can we apply the “be patient and grind” standard to small accounts that want to continue easy matchmaking in BGs?

Dr. Zola

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

DrZola said:
Can we apply the “be patient and grind” standard to small accounts that want to continue easy matchmaking in BGs?

Dr. Zola

Sure. As long as they're not served up as bait in Bronze.

DrZola · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

DrZola said:
Can we apply the “be patient and grind” standard to small accounts that want to continue easy matchmaking in BGs?

Dr. Zola
Sure. As long as they're not served up as bait in Bronze.

Progress! Silver bait!!!

Dr. Zola

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

DrZola said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DrZola said:
Can we apply the “be patient and grind” standard to small accounts that want to continue easy matchmaking in BGs?

Dr. Zola
Sure. As long as they're not served up as bait in Bronze.
Progress! Silver bait!!!

Dr. Zola

Okay, that was funny. XD

DrZola · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

DrZola said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DrZola said:
Can we apply the “be patient and grind” standard to small accounts that want to continue easy matchmaking in BGs?

Dr. Zola
Sure. As long as they're not served up as bait in Bronze.
Progress! Silver bait!!!

Dr. Zola
Okay, that was funny. XD

We all need some humor. It’s been a rough couple of MCoC months.

Dr. Zola

DNA3000 · March 2023

DrZola said:

DNA3000 said:

DrZola said:
@DNA3000 I think I can name the *problem*…but I’d like to know what you think the real problem is first.

Dr. Zola
I don't want to sound deliberately obtuse, but I'm still formulating the idea. It is possible it may be an even more controversial idea than revive farming itself, and I'm still trying to see where it ultimately goes.

But I think I can point to the place where I took an off ramp and headed off into the back roads. When I did my analysis of Act 6, I made the argument that whether Act 6 itself was reasonable or not, its exponential difficulty curve meant that the design idea expressed within it was unsustainable. No player could reasonably keep up with such a fast upward difficulty trajectory. And long before it affected the top tier players, it would snag the more average players of the game. But Act 6 is gatekeeper content: it gates progress to the next stages of the game. It can't indefinitely roadblock average players because if you roadblock 85% of your players from future progress in a progressional game, you're in effect putting a permanent ceiling on a large percentage of your target audience. That's a recipe for a game death spiral.

The logical thing to do is to make sure that content like Act 6 is hard enough that it can be a challenge for high skill players who run into it early in their progress - when their rosters are much weaker - while average and below average players can "outlevel" the content by reaching it slower (and thus having more time to build up roster) and if necessary "park" there until they amass enough strength to plow through it. Its not perfect, but that offers the best compromise for core progressional content that has to be reasonably interesting at release, but must ultimately cater to a very wide audience eventually.

That argument doesn't work for Everest content. Everest content is not intended to be core progressional content, and it has completely different difficulty requirements placed upon it. So what's the equivalent argument for Everest content? I believe this ultimately turns out to be less of a technical numbers problem, and more of an expectation problem. What's the reasonable expectation for Everest content, given its difficulty role *and* its reward profile?

I don't think there's an "answer" to that question. Instead, I think there's a choice. Its a choice I think should have been made explicitly long ago, but now we're in a situation where we have thousands of people who have all made their own choice, and believe the game should honor it. And they are mutually exclusive choices. Which means the best path forward is not going to be one where everyone is happy, but the one where everyone is the least unhappy. And that may ultimately include the developers (at least hypothetically: I don't get to tell them what to do).

I may be ready to stick my neck out tomorrow. Right now its all a tangle, and I'm trying to reduce the idea(s) to their simplest form that will fit in a forum post.
I think we are thinking similar, not necessarily the same, things.

Dr. Zola

Time to find out.

Searmenis · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.
I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.

It actually wasn't, that's the point. 99% of players don't have a stash of hundreds of energy refills to grind the mass of revives was implemented in the announcement.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.
I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.
It actually wasn't, that's the point. 99% of players don't have a stash of hundreds of energy refills to grind the mass of revives was implemented in the announcement.

Energy Refills come with Events, both with and without the Sigil. For Players who are only doing one EQ or so, they're sitting on stockpiles.

Searmenis · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.
I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.
It actually wasn't, that's the point. 99% of players don't have a stash of hundreds of energy refills to grind the mass of revives was implemented in the announcement.
Energy Refills come with Events, both with and without the Sigil. For Players who are only doing one EQ or so, they're sitting on stockpiles.

A "stockpile" is the 10 energy refills (with Sigil) you can have in storage? Because everything else expires and fast. And what events exactly are giving us more than 4 revives/week? Do you even play the game?

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.
I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.
It actually wasn't, that's the point. 99% of players don't have a stash of hundreds of energy refills to grind the mass of revives was implemented in the announcement.
Energy Refills come with Events, both with and without the Sigil. For Players who are only doing one EQ or so, they're sitting on stockpiles.
A "stockpile" is the 10 energy refills (with Sigil) you can have in storage? Because everything else expires and fast. And what events exactly are giving us more than 4 revives/week? Do you even play the game?

It doesn't expire that fast. Also, when you're talking about 2 Revs per Refill (RNG provided), that's quite a significant trade-off.
Yes I play the game. Long enough to see people rationalize every advantage that has to be altered because it's too much.

TangerineBalls · March 2023

Make level 1 revives available in the store to purchase for 15-20 units

DanielRand · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

It doesn't expire that fast. Also, when you're talking about 2 Revs per Refill (RNG provided), that's quite a significant trade-off.
Yes I play the game. Long enough to see people rationalize every advantage that has to be altered because it's too much.

What would you say the unit value of a level 1 revive is since a level 2 is 40 units?

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

DanielRand said:

GroundedWisdom said:

It doesn't expire that fast. Also, when you're talking about 2 Revs per Refill (RNG provided), that's quite a significant trade-off.
Yes I play the game. Long enough to see people rationalize every advantage that has to be altered because it's too much.
What would you say the unit value of a level 1 revive is since a level 2 is 40 units?

They don't sell them. So 0.

OKAYGang · March 2023

Something I find odd nobody is talking about, is if the revive farming was never "intended" or by design why can you move to a revive or a full energy refill in a quest, then back out and keep said item without finishing the quest. Revives and full energy refills are the only items you can do this with. To keep small energy fills, iso or health potions you must complete the quest. This tells me revive and energy farming is and always was totally by design........,...,...... until now since it no longer profitable.

GroundedWisdom · March 2023

OKAYGang said:
Something I find odd nobody is talking about, is if the revive farming was never "intended" or by design why can you move to a revive or a full energy refill in a quest, then back out and keep said item without finishing the quest. Revives and full energy refills are the only items you can do this with. To keep small energy fills, iso or health potions you must complete the quest. This tells me revive and energy farming is and always was totally by design........,...,...... until now since it no longer profitable.

I would suspect it's so that you can use it in the Quest you're doing.

Celticwolf · March 2023

My thought on this:
1. Why do people need to farm millions of revives? Answer some content is not play tested enough or at all before being given to the public. When some of the best players in the world cannot win a fight without a revive what chance to the other 99.99999% of us have? I suggest if someone at the home office testing content cannot beat it without a revive do not put it in. We all know "Dork Lesson" is a great player so he should be a good benchmark.
2. At a certain point progression turns into a farm 100s of revives to finish a path. How are we ever going to beat that content if there is no method to farm these 100s of revives?
3. It is hard enough on new players to progress. It is common knowledge that you should have at least 1000 units on top of a horde of revives for the first time you try for uncollected. I think this change is an aim to farm more $$ from the top 5% and scrap the 80% of us that need that extra help during monthly quests or that push to the next progression tier.
4. Heals are broken. Revive is a better heal than heals. The game was never designed with healing 6* in scope. People need to farm revives because there is no way to get heals strong enough to recover after 9 battles in a path. Even playing perfect you take damage from a block, suicides, etc Fix healing??? Then fix revives??? Now we have 7* coming out with even more life and I suspect no increase in the rather poor healing options.

Offering 4 revives a week is not realistic. Maybe make it a daily. Along with 5 full heals as a daily too. Through players that win the fight a bone.

Searmenis · March 2023

GroundedWisdom said:

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Searmenis said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AmaadAkira said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

iDestroyerZ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

benshb said:

GroundedWisdom said:

thepiggy said:
@GroundedWisdom you have a habit of arguing with nothing but platitudes. Like a fortune cookie saying common sense statements without taking anything into context.

"Everything is a choice"
"If you can't do it, you're not ready for it"
"Impatience is monetized"
"It's called contest of champions. It's a contest and contests are competitive so by definition only the most motivated can do it"
"Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you should get it"

All generally true-ish statements but they don't actually address anything. And you take dictionary definitions as literally as you can then you pour in whatever substance you want into them without actually addressing anything.

Farming is a basic staple that let's players keep up and match the type of content they're going up against. It's not an exploit and if anything the time and money requirements are the highest ever for both grinders and spenders. Cyber Monday unit purchase limits went from 3-4 and the unit store went from needing 15k to 39k. Where do you suppose people get these units from? It's not from dumping revives in broken temporary content whose rewards aren't worth much in 8 months. Please don't respond with "everything is a choice".
Farming might be the way Players have chosen (yes everything IS a choice in terms of how we invest our efforts), but all farming isn't really the debate here. The issue is farming the RNG-based Resources that were at a high rate because they were meant for newer Players. The rate was too high. Quite simply. We can go back and forth about whether we agree with that or not, but evidently Kabam feels so, so it's really an exercise of the mind.
I'm sorry you don't like to hear it, but it's also a choice to save Units until once or twice a year. Some feel it's sacrosanct. Personally, I think the Rewards for Carina's and EoP and the like, would be a better investment than anything they're offering at one time. This game allows people to make their own choices. It's not the fault of the design if those choices don't yield everything.
They were meant for newer players?

How exactly and why? What's the difference between an X rated player farming 10 revives for an Y rated content (new players VS 5.2 collector), and an X+n rated player farming 10 revives for an Y+n rated content (paragons vs Carina v3)?

Those, who have completed previous content and challenges, but don't like the grindiness of arena or BG. What should they do? Just abandon the game? Or should they prepare for the next big thing to come. They gather refills in the overflow. Should they just let them expire.
They are engaging in the game. Is that really bad?
What do you mean how and why? They were put there to help Players at that stage. That's why it was a high rate. Not for people to keep spamming for high-end content.
Dude they create high-end content KNOWING that people will need like an average 30-40 revives, each carina's challenge v3 is like this with those restrictions, if you were to farm only 1 revive per day with apothecary, it would take like 30-40 days for EACH mission...that's insane dude
OF COURSE some people will spend less and some people will spend more, but kabam has full knowledge that the content they create has become a revive spam
30 Revs, 1200 Units, I can make that in a little over a week, not even going hard in the Arena.
I'm sorry but do you speak for everyone else? If you choose to grind arena and buy revives like that, that's on you....this is what you're not understanding about this whole page of arguments, people can choose to grind for revives and others for units, both are playing the game and grinding in it's own way, your playstyle should be your own and not the same for everyone else
I can "choose" to do Arenas or not, but if I choose to not do them, I can't complain about the lack of Resources they give.
I don't consider repeating the same content on Auto as a grind, but I'll let that go and make my further point. People call the Arena too grindy and boring. So are many jobs. If I want money, I have to work. The game isn't a job, sure. That doesn't mean everything is going to come without a grind.
Your argument of 'grind and be patient' can be used to justify any decision Kabam were to ever make. Remove revives from unit store? Grind arena and patiently wait for offers. Remove units from arena? Grind EQ and quest crystals and be patient. Remove units from ALL in-game means? Grind your real life job and be patient.

Maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance if your entire argument works to justify all bad decisions Kabam could ever make.
I don't see it as a bad decision. That's the point. It was too high a farm. That's about it.
It actually wasn't, that's the point. 99% of players don't have a stash of hundreds of energy refills to grind the mass of revives was implemented in the announcement.
Energy Refills come with Events, both with and without the Sigil. For Players who are only doing one EQ or so, they're sitting on stockpiles.
A "stockpile" is the 10 energy refills (with Sigil) you can have in storage? Because everything else expires and fast. And what events exactly are giving us more than 4 revives/week? Do you even play the game?
It doesn't expire that fast. Also, when you're talking about 2 Revs per Refill (RNG provided), that's quite a significant trade-off.
Yes I play the game. Long enough to see people rationalize every advantage that has to be altered because it's too much.

I bet you never did this "farming" thing yourself, because the ratio is not 2 revs per refill, it's 0,5-1,5, RNG provided. And sometimes it s 1 revive per 2 refills, and that's not that scarce. But you use your "stockpile" once, and then you need another whole month to "stockpile" once again and get 3 revives/day for a week. So, 20-30 revives each month, that s huge right? You can do half a path in EoP if you re lucky and you can dash forward when you want to dash forward.

Swamp_Dragon · March 2023

FYI I've been farming like crazy since this announcement.

Chobbly · March 2023

Maybe there is a possibility that Kabam feel that they don't need to, or want to respond. Not that they are actively ignoring this thread or the number of comments, but maybe that they feel they don't need to say anything.

A statement has been made and the intent is announced and clear. That's pretty much it. From their perspective nothing will change apart from players being required to spend more units on revives. Someone will have estimated how much additional revenue that would bring in, I suspect.

We may not like it, but as players we only have a limited number of options in how we can respond.

Being reflective, do I think that the items in the Apothecary quest might change? Possibly. But unless something drastic happens then this is probably a done deal which is why comms have been pretty silent on this. We'll see.

Qwerty12345 · March 2023

well, if not revive farming... exactly what will end players be using their energy on? Lower levels of MQ... not intended for them... daily catalyts.... bah, why would you rank up your lower champs, you are beyond that.

Add r3 and r4 mats (honestly even t5b and t2 are so long overdue, I'm skipping them)... and that would be something.

Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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