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How does bullseye having a theoretical infinite duration evade on standby any fair to players?

2

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  • Options
    PT_99PT_99 Posts: 3,217 ★★★★★
    Graves_3 said:

    klobberintyme said:

    WhiteKnight said:

    klobberintyme said:


    Great solution, one champ 👍

    Maybe negasonic too? Unless obviously he's dropped an sp1 already then she's useles.ls... so onslaught? I mean you'd have to sacrifice a top defender to use him on attack but he does work
    One champ



    One champ



    One champ



    One champ



    One champ



    One champ



    One more




    Fun.


    So are deciding on optimal counters in practice mode now?
    Practice frogs beating 17-20k rating defender with random attackers and calling it a day. 💀
  • Options
    Herbal_TaxmanHerbal_Taxman Posts: 230 ★★★
    Emilia90 said:

    altavista said:

    Emilia90 said:

    WhiteKnight said:

    klobberintyme said:


    Great solution, one champ 👍

    Maybe negasonic too? Unless obviously he's dropped an sp1 already then she's useles.ls... so onslaught? I mean you'd have to sacrifice a top defender to use him on attack but he does work
    You could also use the million other bullseye counters there are. Nova and Emma can also stop his evade and nuke him. You can also turn his evade off by hitting him right into a relic or special and his evade goes back on cooldown
    I more have an issue with passive AI and the interaction with infinite killer instinct.

    Setting aside getting instant bleed damage, if you’re not using an evade counter then you’re at the mercy of Bullseye’ AI being nice enough to throw his special.

    Imagine Necropolis type content, which is already a long fight, but is made even longer just cause the Bullseye AI doesn’t want to throw their special. You can’t do anything (without using an evade counter) and just have to dance around.

    In contrast, look at Negasonic. There is a chance she won’t evade, or you can skillfully heavy counter, or you can bring in a tech, or you can bring in an evade counter. That is a much better design that doesn’t rely strictly on hard counters or friendly AI behavior.
    I agree that the AI can be bad, but I’ve fought bullseye a ton and even on his worst AI day, he’s not that hard to get an sp1 out of. He seems more trigger happy with it than most other champs in the game

    It’s definitely an issue in Necro type content, but as it stands now, I haven’t had much of an issue. I also sometimes turn off his killer instinct by using a hit into a relic or special. It sucks that he wasn’t tuned down more, but this is what we have to work with and he does have a ton of counters
    This. There’s no champ in the game who’s more eager to throw an sp1 than Bullseye.
  • Options
    willrun4adonutwillrun4adonut Posts: 3,587 ★★★★★
    GrO_ot78 said:

    Knull, Odin, AA, Kitty, both Storms, Molegod, Venom, Sinister +++ plenty great options for him.

    How does Venom counter?
  • Options
    GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Posts: 6,476 Guardian
    I was always team bullseye needs a tune down
  • Options
    jdschwjdschw Posts: 247 ★★
    I also like the idea because, as the OP points out, it actually brings bullseye's SP2 into the game for attackers that don't have a total evade counter. I lierally don't even know what bullseye's sp2 looks like because i never get to see it. Where's the fun in that?
  • Options
    Rayven5220Rayven5220 Posts: 1,972 ★★★★★
    Emilia90 said:

    EdisonLaw said:

    Dab_west said:

    should be talking about how bs serpent is instead of bullseye but yea. many bullseye counters exist, the evade isnt the most annoying thing about bullseye

    They are both BS
    Most bleed immunes with good damage take him out easily and he doesn’t have cheat death or massive resistances. Serpent is a million times more limited while bullseye can be killed in 30-45 seconds by about 25 different champs
    80% of mystic class counters serpent. He's not that bad.
  • Options
    RDR2JammyRDR2Jammy Posts: 43 ★
    captain_rogers said:

    There are a lot of counters to bullseye but I'm getting your point.

    All his hits as crits and you can't hit him without a evade counter once he reaches a bar of power, and when his sp1 launches (which deals huge crit/bleed damage), and still you can't hit him for 3 seconds. And throw is another combo and again he probably get back a bar of power and the cycle continues.

    Like how penny and domino made every other cosmic/tech champ have abilties to specifically counter them, Now the mutants for thr next two years have something on kit just to counter bullseye.

    I didn't know that his evade only activates when he hits a bar of power, I assumed it activated on every other combo the attacker does.

    If this is this the case, would a high sig Vision (Age Of Ultron) be a good counter as he can keep stealing Bullseye's power and continuously stop him from hitting a bar of power.

  • Options
    MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 5,580 ★★★★★
    RDR2Jammy said:

    captain_rogers said:

    There are a lot of counters to bullseye but I'm getting your point.

    All his hits as crits and you can't hit him without a evade counter once he reaches a bar of power, and when his sp1 launches (which deals huge crit/bleed damage), and still you can't hit him for 3 seconds. And throw is another combo and again he probably get back a bar of power and the cycle continues.

    Like how penny and domino made every other cosmic/tech champ have abilties to specifically counter them, Now the mutants for thr next two years have something on kit just to counter bullseye.

    I didn't know that his evade only activates when he hits a bar of power, I assumed it activated on every other combo the attacker does.

    If this is this the case, would a high sig Vision (Age Of Ultron) be a good counter as he can keep stealing Bullseye's power and continuously stop him from hitting a bar of power.

    That's how people use Red Skull as a counter - he works really well.

    Punisher-2099 should become a pretty decent option, once Bullseye gets adjusted in the next update, to remove the bleeds on Dexing his basic attacks. Especially if you use Collar Tech.
  • Options
    Wu_Bangerz23Wu_Bangerz23 Posts: 892 ★★★
    WhiteKnight said:

    klobberintyme said:


    Great solution, one champ 👍

    Maybe negasonic too? Unless obviously he's dropped an sp1 already then she's useles.ls... so onslaught? I mean you'd have to sacrifice a top defender to use him on attack but he does work
    Sinister ..and everyone got one for free. That's the solution....he's the best counter and it's not close. He's actually a pain defender too unless they brought a decent counter. He's one of my lowest deck options (21k) and he's been one of my MVPs....he actually gets banned from time to time.
  • Options
    Wu_Bangerz23Wu_Bangerz23 Posts: 892 ★★★
    Rayven5220 said:

    Emilia90 said:

    EdisonLaw said:

    Dab_west said:

    should be talking about how bs serpent is instead of bullseye but yea. many bullseye counters exist, the evade isnt the most annoying thing about bullseye

    They are both BS
    Most bleed immunes with good damage take him out easily and he doesn’t have cheat death or massive resistances. Serpent is a million times more limited while bullseye can be killed in 30-45 seconds by about 25 different champs
    80% of mystic class counters serpent. He's not that bad.
    I have a way harder time with Onslaught than either bullseye or serpent....luckily I have good mystics so serpent isn't that bad. I still can't figure out Onslaught the life of me though....he's gonna eventually force me to rank up havok lol
  • Options
    Emilia90Emilia90 Posts: 2,546 ★★★★★
    Nemesis_17 said:

    altavista said:

    Nemesis_17 said:


    Bullseye: yes he has lots of counters now, but fighting him just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. His mechanics punish skillful play, and also leave little you can do to get around them. While yes new counters have made him far more manageable in bgs, his design is still absolutely terrible. He feels like if OG daredevil got 8 different toxic nodes thrown into his base kit.
    .

    I always thought it was unnecessary that the evade can’t be countered by Slow. It’s more common in the Science class and so wouldn’t work on Bullseye, but then it eliminates some other champions that are able to apply it. I get that Kabam didn’t just want AA or Apoc to just ignore the evade, but Slow becomes a casualty of the decision.

    My fear is that Bullseye, like NF’s LMD, is overdesigned so there will be constant bugs when Kabam comes up with mechanics to counter Killer Instinct. Negasonic’s countering mechanism already sounds overly complicated. This has a downstream effect of Kabam tying itself into knots when trying to create Skill champions that can’t be countered by Negasonic.
    As the owner of a rank 3 Shang chi I couldn’t agree more. I hate how they keep adding layers to mechanics already introduced just so they can rule out counters. Slow is an example of this. Bullseye and nightcrawler the 2 new evade chanps who are defenders both have their evades immune to ability accuracy reduction. Though nightcrawler only if awakened and not against techs. They have to add some sort of new problem that can’t be resolved by the old solutions so that there are less counters out there in the game.

    New cosmics being nullify immune is another example. Why are they immune to the most common ability of the class they have a disadvantage against? It’s so they have less counters and are therefore seen as tougher defenders. That’s it..So now instead of nullify you have to bring neutralize for buff control which accomplishes the exact same thing as nullify except without md and through slightly different means. They’re just trying to increase the chance you get stuck without a counter so that when they release a new champ who is a counter you chase after them. Sell the poison, then sell the cure.

    I don’t agree with this. They’re immune to it because then mystics would just steamroll them and there’s no challenge. The whole thing makes sense from a design standpoint and I don’t understand how people don’t see this

    If they kept letting new defenders get countered by old stuff, how would they be a threat? Domino introduced an ability that no one could bypass for a long time, but now lots of champs can take her. By 2025, bullseye will be just another defender that’ll have a lot of new counters. It’s not like there aren’t already hard counters to him though, and alongside Negasonic and Sinister, Kushala hard counters everything in bullseye’s kit and wrecks him. There’s also a ton of others that YouTubers have showcases on
  • Options
    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 3,078 ★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    RDR2Jammy said:

    captain_rogers said:

    There are a lot of counters to bullseye but I'm getting your point.

    All his hits as crits and you can't hit him without a evade counter once he reaches a bar of power, and when his sp1 launches (which deals huge crit/bleed damage), and still you can't hit him for 3 seconds. And throw is another combo and again he probably get back a bar of power and the cycle continues.

    Like how penny and domino made every other cosmic/tech champ have abilties to specifically counter them, Now the mutants for thr next two years have something on kit just to counter bullseye.

    I didn't know that his evade only activates when he hits a bar of power, I assumed it activated on every other combo the attacker does.

    If this is this the case, would a high sig Vision (Age Of Ultron) be a good counter as he can keep stealing Bullseye's power and continuously stop him from hitting a bar of power.

    That's how people use Red Skull as a counter - he works really well.

    Punisher-2099 should become a pretty decent option, once Bullseye gets adjusted in the next update, to remove the bleeds on Dexing his basic attacks. Especially if you use Collar Tech.
    That was my idea as well since he gains the killer instinct at one bar. He’s also a good counter to Photon as well and any champ who has a dangerous sp1 or ability at one bar
  • Options
    labaik1990labaik1990 Posts: 1 ★
    Heruzu369 said:



    I’ve brought this months ago but I dont understand why Bullseye can pocket an automatic “cant hit me” mechanic for literally however long he(the AI) wants to simply because the evade will not go away unless it’s 3 seconds AFTER a special or upon the evade triggering. As an attacker, for a low damage champ it’s pretty helpful. But as a defender who already has unavoidable “fun and interactive damage”, why does he need a guaranteed infinite duration evade on his defensive kit that sets him up for a GUARANTEED punish??? How is that not deemed excessive??

    With all the AI problems and reliance in the game already, why would a champion be allowed to theoretically completely stop a fight??? I’ve had fights in war and battlegrounds where the fight literally had just became me dashing back hoping he uses a special, while he just continues to rush me into the corner. If the time alone spent being FORCED to bait a special doesn’t cost you a match In BGs(on top of the fun and interactive damage) then getting rushed into a corner simply because the AI decided you won’t hit him again will. So altogether this is by far one of the worst and most asinine decisions I’ve ever come across from a gaming company in a fighting game.

    SOLUTION
    Obviously I didn’t come here just to point out a horrible toxic mechanic in the game without offering a simple solution of my own that’s still true to the champ. I believe if WHILE AS A DEFENDER, he evade timer DIDNT pause except for when uses a special it’ll be much more fair for players attacking. This would mean he still has his evade after gaining a bar of power like usually, but instead of the timer WAITING for him to use a special, it’s just begins immediately. This would allow bullseye to still create hiccups on the flow of a match by preventing attackers from being too aggressive, while also stripping the champ Ai of the ability to completely deadlock a match EVERY 5-7 HITS.
    Also, this would allow attackers to actually push him to his sp2 which most champs in the game cannot do because of the mechanic above.

    Conclusion
    Having a mechanic that can completely remove the players ability to control any aspect of a match while already being on a stacked defended who can be placed on hundreds of different nodes creates a defensive powerhouse who is essentially gamebreaking.
    I’d argue this is the most unjustified defensive champ in MCOC history since even Domino required at the very least a high investment. Bullseye requires NO investment, has MORE unavoidable fun and interactive damage, AND possesses a counter-attack evade that not only works through stuns(which only lands 50% of the time anyways) but also has theoretical infinite duration that GUARANTEES a special punishment.
    So yeah… if that’s not completely BROKEN and unjustified then I really don’t know what is at this point 🤷🏾‍♂️

    It's extremely annoying when placed on that stunning reflection and brute force node
  • Options
    Nemesis_17Nemesis_17 Posts: 1,412 ★★★★
    Emilia90 said:

    Nemesis_17 said:

    altavista said:

    Nemesis_17 said:


    Bullseye: yes he has lots of counters now, but fighting him just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. His mechanics punish skillful play, and also leave little you can do to get around them. While yes new counters have made him far more manageable in bgs, his design is still absolutely terrible. He feels like if OG daredevil got 8 different toxic nodes thrown into his base kit.
    .

    I always thought it was unnecessary that the evade can’t be countered by Slow. It’s more common in the Science class and so wouldn’t work on Bullseye, but then it eliminates some other champions that are able to apply it. I get that Kabam didn’t just want AA or Apoc to just ignore the evade, but Slow becomes a casualty of the decision.

    My fear is that Bullseye, like NF’s LMD, is overdesigned so there will be constant bugs when Kabam comes up with mechanics to counter Killer Instinct. Negasonic’s countering mechanism already sounds overly complicated. This has a downstream effect of Kabam tying itself into knots when trying to create Skill champions that can’t be countered by Negasonic.
    As the owner of a rank 3 Shang chi I couldn’t agree more. I hate how they keep adding layers to mechanics already introduced just so they can rule out counters. Slow is an example of this. Bullseye and nightcrawler the 2 new evade chanps who are defenders both have their evades immune to ability accuracy reduction. Though nightcrawler only if awakened and not against techs. They have to add some sort of new problem that can’t be resolved by the old solutions so that there are less counters out there in the game.

    New cosmics being nullify immune is another example. Why are they immune to the most common ability of the class they have a disadvantage against? It’s so they have less counters and are therefore seen as tougher defenders. That’s it..So now instead of nullify you have to bring neutralize for buff control which accomplishes the exact same thing as nullify except without md and through slightly different means. They’re just trying to increase the chance you get stuck without a counter so that when they release a new champ who is a counter you chase after them. Sell the poison, then sell the cure.

    I don’t agree with this. They’re immune to it because then mystics would just steamroll them and there’s no challenge. The whole thing makes sense from a design standpoint and I don’t understand how people don’t see this

    If they kept letting new defenders get countered by old stuff, how would they be a threat? Domino introduced an ability that no one could bypass for a long time, but now lots of champs can take her. By 2025, bullseye will be just another defender that’ll have a lot of new counters. It’s not like there aren’t already hard counters to him though, and alongside Negasonic and Sinister, Kushala hard counters everything in bullseye’s kit and wrecks him. There’s also a ton of others that YouTubers have showcases on
    I took a look at all the mystics in the game and counted at most 5 who would become debatably meta relevant if they could use their nullify on some of the top cosmic defenders. Kushala would also become slightly better for some of the matchups she already takes, and longshot would be usable for a couple new matchups. That’s about it, I don’t see how that’s gonna ruin the meta for cosmic defenders.

    I understand the logic of it from a design standpoint, I just disagree with it. You can design a good defender without creating a champ who mandates drafting counters for them if you want to have any chance in hell of winning. Look at Korg, he has a ton of counters and yet he’s still a major defensive threat, there’s many ways you can mess up against him and if you don’t draft a counter you’re not exactly screwed, but you’ll now have to play better if you want to win that round. This is such a stark contrast to bullseye who punishes skill and hands you an instant L without a counter.

    Onslaught is another example of someone who can be managed mostly by skill and a good counter only enhances that. Kindred you can also take with almost anyone if you learn the sp1 punish, and yet he’s still a threat on defense as one mistake can push you into unavoidable damage. The difference between him and bullseye being I can use my skill to consistently avoid that damage instead of being shutdown completely after 10 hits and forced to eat it. That’s bad design.

    As I said in my first post in this thread, bullseye having more counters nowadays to make him manageable doesn’t make his design any better. Yes he’s no longer as scary as he was on release, and in 2025 he’ll be even less so. But in 2025 I’ll still argue that he’s a lazily designed champ, with the sole purpose of him being to win matches on defense, without caring about how unfairly he does it.
  • Options
    Emilia90Emilia90 Posts: 2,546 ★★★★★
    Nemesis_17 said:

    Emilia90 said:

    Nemesis_17 said:

    altavista said:

    Nemesis_17 said:


    Bullseye: yes he has lots of counters now, but fighting him just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. His mechanics punish skillful play, and also leave little you can do to get around them. While yes new counters have made him far more manageable in bgs, his design is still absolutely terrible. He feels like if OG daredevil got 8 different toxic nodes thrown into his base kit.
    .

    I always thought it was unnecessary that the evade can’t be countered by Slow. It’s more common in the Science class and so wouldn’t work on Bullseye, but then it eliminates some other champions that are able to apply it. I get that Kabam didn’t just want AA or Apoc to just ignore the evade, but Slow becomes a casualty of the decision.

    My fear is that Bullseye, like NF’s LMD, is overdesigned so there will be constant bugs when Kabam comes up with mechanics to counter Killer Instinct. Negasonic’s countering mechanism already sounds overly complicated. This has a downstream effect of Kabam tying itself into knots when trying to create Skill champions that can’t be countered by Negasonic.
    As the owner of a rank 3 Shang chi I couldn’t agree more. I hate how they keep adding layers to mechanics already introduced just so they can rule out counters. Slow is an example of this. Bullseye and nightcrawler the 2 new evade chanps who are defenders both have their evades immune to ability accuracy reduction. Though nightcrawler only if awakened and not against techs. They have to add some sort of new problem that can’t be resolved by the old solutions so that there are less counters out there in the game.

    New cosmics being nullify immune is another example. Why are they immune to the most common ability of the class they have a disadvantage against? It’s so they have less counters and are therefore seen as tougher defenders. That’s it..So now instead of nullify you have to bring neutralize for buff control which accomplishes the exact same thing as nullify except without md and through slightly different means. They’re just trying to increase the chance you get stuck without a counter so that when they release a new champ who is a counter you chase after them. Sell the poison, then sell the cure.

    I don’t agree with this. They’re immune to it because then mystics would just steamroll them and there’s no challenge. The whole thing makes sense from a design standpoint and I don’t understand how people don’t see this

    If they kept letting new defenders get countered by old stuff, how would they be a threat? Domino introduced an ability that no one could bypass for a long time, but now lots of champs can take her. By 2025, bullseye will be just another defender that’ll have a lot of new counters. It’s not like there aren’t already hard counters to him though, and alongside Negasonic and Sinister, Kushala hard counters everything in bullseye’s kit and wrecks him. There’s also a ton of others that YouTubers have showcases on
    I took a look at all the mystics in the game and counted at most 5 who would become debatably meta relevant if they could use their nullify on some of the top cosmic defenders. Kushala would also become slightly better for some of the matchups she already takes, and longshot would be usable for a couple new matchups. That’s about it, I don’t see how that’s gonna ruin the meta for cosmic defenders.

    I understand the logic of it from a design standpoint, I just disagree with it. You can design a good defender without creating a champ who mandates drafting counters for them if you want to have any chance in hell of winning. Look at Korg, he has a ton of counters and yet he’s still a major defensive threat, there’s many ways you can mess up against him and if you don’t draft a counter you’re not exactly screwed, but you’ll now have to play better if you want to win that round. This is such a stark contrast to bullseye who punishes skill and hands you an instant L without a counter.

    Onslaught is another example of someone who can be managed mostly by skill and a good counter only enhances that. Kindred you can also take with almost anyone if you learn the sp1 punish, and yet he’s still a threat on defense as one mistake can push you into unavoidable damage. The difference between him and bullseye being I can use my skill to consistently avoid that damage instead of being shutdown completely after 10 hits and forced to eat it. That’s bad design.

    As I said in my first post in this thread, bullseye having more counters nowadays to make him manageable doesn’t make his design any better. Yes he’s no longer as scary as he was on release, and in 2025 he’ll be even less so. But in 2025 I’ll still argue that he’s a lazily designed champ, with the sole purpose of him being to win matches on defense, without caring about how unfairly he does it.
    Serpent is the only major cosmic threat even left and they had to design him to be as unfair as possible. Most new comics do have mystic countering abilities but also aren’t even defensive threats because mystics and even other classes run over them with ease. Serpent is going too far ofc, but that’s more so because of damage res and dex locking

    Post got sent to approval realm again, but like I said, they could've tuned bullseye down even more, but they’re not going to. As it stands, there are a lot of counters to him that most people will be running in battlegrounds and it’s unlikely that you don’t get even a single one of them in your draft.

    More will soon follow in the coming months I’m sure, but for now we have Kushala, Negasonic, Sinister, CGR, Bishop, Onslaught, Sunspot, and Guardian as great counters, along with Iceman, Emma, Knull, Nova, Storm, Storm X, Kitty, Nick, and a bunch of others that also work, albeit a bit slower or with a little more damage taken. I used to ban bullseye every match, but I’ve just gotten used to fighting him now. It’s unlikely that not a single one of the 10-12 counters I’m running don’t come up in my draft and I’m truly cooked or something
  • Options
    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 3,078 ★★★★
    Emilia90 said:

    Nemesis_17 said:

    Emilia90 said:

    Nemesis_17 said:

    altavista said:

    Nemesis_17 said:


    Bullseye: yes he has lots of counters now, but fighting him just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. His mechanics punish skillful play, and also leave little you can do to get around them. While yes new counters have made him far more manageable in bgs, his design is still absolutely terrible. He feels like if OG daredevil got 8 different toxic nodes thrown into his base kit.
    .

    I always thought it was unnecessary that the evade can’t be countered by Slow. It’s more common in the Science class and so wouldn’t work on Bullseye, but then it eliminates some other champions that are able to apply it. I get that Kabam didn’t just want AA or Apoc to just ignore the evade, but Slow becomes a casualty of the decision.

    My fear is that Bullseye, like NF’s LMD, is overdesigned so there will be constant bugs when Kabam comes up with mechanics to counter Killer Instinct. Negasonic’s countering mechanism already sounds overly complicated. This has a downstream effect of Kabam tying itself into knots when trying to create Skill champions that can’t be countered by Negasonic.
    As the owner of a rank 3 Shang chi I couldn’t agree more. I hate how they keep adding layers to mechanics already introduced just so they can rule out counters. Slow is an example of this. Bullseye and nightcrawler the 2 new evade chanps who are defenders both have their evades immune to ability accuracy reduction. Though nightcrawler only if awakened and not against techs. They have to add some sort of new problem that can’t be resolved by the old solutions so that there are less counters out there in the game.

    New cosmics being nullify immune is another example. Why are they immune to the most common ability of the class they have a disadvantage against? It’s so they have less counters and are therefore seen as tougher defenders. That’s it..So now instead of nullify you have to bring neutralize for buff control which accomplishes the exact same thing as nullify except without md and through slightly different means. They’re just trying to increase the chance you get stuck without a counter so that when they release a new champ who is a counter you chase after them. Sell the poison, then sell the cure.

    I don’t agree with this. They’re immune to it because then mystics would just steamroll them and there’s no challenge. The whole thing makes sense from a design standpoint and I don’t understand how people don’t see this

    If they kept letting new defenders get countered by old stuff, how would they be a threat? Domino introduced an ability that no one could bypass for a long time, but now lots of champs can take her. By 2025, bullseye will be just another defender that’ll have a lot of new counters. It’s not like there aren’t already hard counters to him though, and alongside Negasonic and Sinister, Kushala hard counters everything in bullseye’s kit and wrecks him. There’s also a ton of others that YouTubers have showcases on
    I took a look at all the mystics in the game and counted at most 5 who would become debatably meta relevant if they could use their nullify on some of the top cosmic defenders. Kushala would also become slightly better for some of the matchups she already takes, and longshot would be usable for a couple new matchups. That’s about it, I don’t see how that’s gonna ruin the meta for cosmic defenders.

    I understand the logic of it from a design standpoint, I just disagree with it. You can design a good defender without creating a champ who mandates drafting counters for them if you want to have any chance in hell of winning. Look at Korg, he has a ton of counters and yet he’s still a major defensive threat, there’s many ways you can mess up against him and if you don’t draft a counter you’re not exactly screwed, but you’ll now have to play better if you want to win that round. This is such a stark contrast to bullseye who punishes skill and hands you an instant L without a counter.

    Onslaught is another example of someone who can be managed mostly by skill and a good counter only enhances that. Kindred you can also take with almost anyone if you learn the sp1 punish, and yet he’s still a threat on defense as one mistake can push you into unavoidable damage. The difference between him and bullseye being I can use my skill to consistently avoid that damage instead of being shutdown completely after 10 hits and forced to eat it. That’s bad design.

    As I said in my first post in this thread, bullseye having more counters nowadays to make him manageable doesn’t make his design any better. Yes he’s no longer as scary as he was on release, and in 2025 he’ll be even less so. But in 2025 I’ll still argue that he’s a lazily designed champ, with the sole purpose of him being to win matches on defense, without caring about how unfairly he does it.
    Serpent is the only major cosmic threat even left and they had to design him to be as unfair as possible. Most new comics do have mystic countering abilities but also aren’t even defensive threats because mystics and even other classes run over them with ease. Serpent is going too far ofc, but that’s more so because of damage res and dex locking

    Post got sent to approval realm again, but like I said, they could've tuned bullseye down even more, but they’re not going to. As it stands, there are a lot of counters to him that most people will be running in battlegrounds and it’s unlikely that you don’t get even a single one of them in your draft.

    More will soon follow in the coming months I’m sure, but for now we have Kushala, Negasonic, Sinister, CGR, Bishop, Onslaught, Sunspot, and Guardian as great counters, along with Iceman, Emma, Knull, Nova, Storm, Storm X, Kitty, Nick, and a bunch of others that also work, albeit a bit slower or with a little more damage taken. I used to ban bullseye every match, but I’ve just gotten used to fighting him now. It’s unlikely that not a single one of the 10-12 counters I’m running don’t come up in my draft and I’m truly cooked or something
    How does Maestro compare to Serpent on defense?
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,034 Guardian
    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
  • Options
    KoukentsuKoukentsu Posts: 4 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
    The examples you give aren't similar to bullseye because the player has to hit those champs in order to trigger their abilities. With bullseye you can't hit him because he will counter you and you have to wait for him to throw his special so the passive evade can go on cooldown. All of this is reliant on the ai which op mentions.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,034 Guardian
    Koukentsu said:

    DNA3000 said:

    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
    The examples you give aren't similar to bullseye because the player has to hit those champs in order to trigger their abilities. With bullseye you can't hit him because he will counter you and you have to wait for him to throw his special so the passive evade can go on cooldown. All of this is reliant on the ai which op mentions.
    I'm not saying those examples are similar to Bullseye in all respects. I was responding specifically to this statement above:


    no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration


    If *that* is the argument against Bullseye's evade mechanic, I stand by my statement that that is a specious argument.

    I know it is fashionable to believe either you agree with everything or you disagree with everything, and if you disagree with any statement on any side you're advocating for the opposite thing. But fashionable or not, that' idea is completely stupid.

  • Options
    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 3,078 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
    At least Ultron’s evade is counterable with AAR. Bullseye’s evade is immune to AAR
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,034 Guardian
    EdisonLaw said:

    DNA3000 said:

    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
    At least Ultron’s evade is counterable with AAR. Bullseye’s evade is immune to AAR
    So are you saying no mechanic should have an infinite duration standby to trigger, unless it is ability accuracy is modifiable, and then it is okay?
  • Options
    EdisonLawEdisonLaw Posts: 3,078 ★★★★
    edited July 4
    DNA3000 said:

    EdisonLaw said:

    DNA3000 said:

    JK_47 said:

    I think we are getting sidetracked,
    OP's concern was "infinite duration evade on standby is BS"
    I agree with OP, no mechanic should have standby for infinite duration.... it's really messed up

    I don't understand this complaint. Lots of champs have abilities with "standby for infinite duration" if that means "they wait an indefinite amount of time to trigger." Even something like Luke Cage's indestructible would seem to qualify. Some are arguably better than Bullseye's evade: Jessica Jones can just go unstoppable and unblockable when you try to use specials against her once she's ramped up (and assuming you have debuffs on you). It doesn't even have a cooldown.

    The champ most similar to Bullseye's evade is probably Ultron. Every seven seconds he gets an evade charge, and it persists indefinitely until you attack and trigger it. That sounds a lot like Bullseye, and he's been around almost forever.
    At least Ultron’s evade is counterable with AAR. Bullseye’s evade is immune to AAR
    So are you saying no mechanic should have an infinite duration standby to trigger, unless it is ability accuracy is modifiable, and then it is okay?
    It’s not the infinite duration issue as @Bugmat78 said, it’s the consequences of triggering the evade, after which Bullseye throws an unblockable sp1 that deals a lot of damage even if the attacker can block unblockable (unless your name is Mr Sinister or Kushala)
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