Early Look: New Alliance Wars Maps - Discussion Thread

Hey Everybody!

We've got another Early Look for you all! This time, we're introducing brand new Maps for all Tiers of Alliance Wars!

We recently ran a Beta for Alliance Wars that featured a number of different Updates to the Mode, and our Beta Players offered us a wealth of feedback. We’ve parsed the data and feedback that we collected, and want to give you all a glimpse into our plans moving forward.

In our Beta, we updated the map and also introduced a new feature called “Defense Tactics”. The Map update introduced a new layout and new Buffs, while Defense Tactics allowed Alliance Leadership to choose a Global Buff to apply to the Map, which allows for Defenses to be more customizable and setup in a more meaningful way.

The feedback we received was that these two major changes together were quite jarring, and that it was too much all at once. We agree with this sentiment so we have decided to stagger the release of the Map update and the release of Defense Tactics (currently scheduled for Season 11).

Read all about the upcoming map changes in the Early Look here!

Comments

MetalJake

Until then, we’ll have 3-5 weeks of harder maps with same outdated rewards.

The statement was made that no changes to the Rewards are coming. Not that they're coming later. I know what I responded to.
No one said they aren’t giving an update to rewards. Everyone has said they are giving us the new harder map for season 10 with a expected reward increase in season 11. No one has said otherwise.
Yes, they did. People commented that there was NO REWARDS BOOST. That's what I commented on. Read the Thread again.
We are talking about season 10. There is no reward increase for season 10. Your comments are pointless at this time. Please direct yourself out of the conversation.
We're talking about the new Maps and upcoming changes to War. For which the Rewards will increase with Defence Tactics in Season 11. I know what we're here discussing. I'm not leaving, sorry.

LeNoirFaineant

People are forgetting that a season or 2 ago Kabam stated quite clearly that the War map is not designed to be 100% every war. They want alliances to not finish the map every war thus creating closer and closer wars
If you'll recall, that was during ongoing iterations where people complained the Map was too easy, and that the Win came down to a few Points in Diversity. They reiterated their goal was that the Map was meant to be a challenge. That's been the goal all along. I don't see reason to bring that up much later, since we've had a number of revisions since then. It is, and always was, intended to be challenging at the very top. However many adjustments it takes to get there.

No one was complaining that the map was too easy. We were complaining that by dropping defender kills every war was being decided before they started by defensive rating. It also had nothing to do with making the map "challenging at the top". It always has been. But thank you for playing.

GroundedWisdom

People are forgetting that a season or 2 ago Kabam stated quite clearly that the War map is not designed to be 100% every war. They want alliances to not finish the map every war thus creating closer and closer wars
If you'll recall, that was during ongoing iterations where people complained the Map was too easy, and that the Win came down to a few Points in Diversity. They reiterated their goal was that the Map was meant to be a challenge. That's been the goal all along. I don't see reason to bring that up much later, since we've had a number of revisions since then. It is, and always was, intended to be challenging at the very top. However many adjustments it takes to get there.
No one was complaining that the map was too easy. We were complaining that by dropping defender kills every war was being decided before they started by defensive rating. It also had nothing to do with making the map "challenging at the top". It always has been. But thank you for playing.

Pretty sure the recurring argument was that everyone was completing the Map 100% and the Win came down to things like Diversity. Regardless, the Map has always been intended to be a challenge to complete 100%, and that's the point I was making. Some people didn't agree with this, and still don't, clearly.

QuikPik

Kabam stated that they removed defender kills from points because it made people feel bad for dying. Then they say maps aren't meant to be 100%. They just change the narrative to justify the update they are pushing on us.

Carmel1

So a little background on Season 11 Rewards Update:

We discussed the Reward Changes quite a bit, and the decision was made to hold back the Rewards update until Season 11, because we want that update to coincide with the addition of Defence Tactics.

While the Maps are new, and getting used to something new is never without Challenge, there isn't really an intended bump to difficulty with this Map update. There are more "mini-bosses", but not all of them have strong Buffs on them (nodes 15, 18, 20, 37, 41, 43, 44, 46, 47 don't have the big boosts found on other mini-boss nodes), and you will no longer be on your own to take them down.

Defence Tactics is the biggest update we've made to Alliance Wars since Seasons were introduced, and while we wanted to have them live for Season 10, the feedback we received that it was soon, and we needed to get these Maps out to everybody first.

“and you will no longer be on your own to take them down.”
News flash:
To have other players with me doesn’t take the pressure the finish a fight without dying, boost, heal to max before the fight and heal to max after the fight.

And it’s not just more minis, it’s also stronger nodes with “unavoidable” damage like thorns, starburst etc...

GroundedWisdom

Defender Kills have nothing to do with intending the Map to be difficult to complete.

Justapilgrim

the Inverted Bleed node is so lame.
how do you defeat void without degening to death? without Corvus or nick?

Omega red would work fine for that node

xNig

the Inverted Bleed node is so lame.
how do you defeat void without degening to death? without Corvus or nick?
Omega red would work fine for that node

You’ll still take Degen from Void.

LeNoirFaineant

Defender Kills have nothing to do with intending the Map to be difficult to complete.

They have everything to do with why people were complaining that wars were no longer being determined by skill but by things like defensive rating, not because the map was too easy like you claimed lol. At the time a Mod commented that defensive rating and diversity were determining wars because both sides were 100%ing the map, which wasn't intended, but they have since dropped that as a thing. Making people fail to 100% the map hasn't been a goal for some time. I think you are a little confused on your recollections, but this is an irrelevant tangent so I suggest we drop it.

GroundedWisdom

Defender Kills have nothing to do with intending the Map to be difficult to complete.
They have everything to do with why people were complaining that wars were no longer being determined by skill but by things like defensive rating, not because the map was too easy like you claimed lol. At the time a Mod commented that defensive rating and diversity were determining wars because both sides were 100%ing the map, which wasn't intended, but they have since dropped that as a thing. Making people fail to 100% the map hasn't been a goal for some time. I think you are a little confused on your recollections, but this is an irrelevant tangent so I suggest we drop it.

Defender Kills never stopped people from completing the Map. What it did was cost people for every K.O. Which meant effectively, people were using Resources to increase their chances of losing. Skill to get through the Nodes without dying, perhaps. Not skill for people relying on Defender Kills for Wins. Large amounts of Points accumualted for deaths. Back when the Mystic Barrier was a thing, all people had to do was let the opponent K.O. themselves into a Loss. There were a few reasons they were removed, and the current iteration still encourages people to play skillfully while at the same time not docking them for their efforts and use of Items afterwards. Defender Kills didn't have anything to do with making the Map harder to complete. People were scared to keep trying because every K.O. gave Points.

MetalJake

@Kabam Miike same difficulty?

Refresh my memory, what's Tankbuster and Psychic Thorns?

MetalJake

I wouldn’t be surprised if we get 3 days bwtn 9s end &10s rollout

Will we get to practice the new map during the off-season when season 9 ends?

GroundedWisdom

I was there for the entire change. I remember the arguments presented, and it was a bitter haul because people couldn't let go of Defender Kills. Why? They were relying on them for their Wins. You don't even have to play skillfully in some scenarios. You just have to let the other Ally play themsleves to death.

Surfin_silver

Until then, we’ll have 3-5 weeks of harder maps with same outdated rewards.
The statement was made that no changes to the Rewards are coming. Not that they're coming later. I know what I responded to.
No one said they aren’t giving an update to rewards. Everyone has said they are giving us the new harder map for season 10 with a expected reward increase in season 11. No one has said otherwise.
Yes, they did. People commented that there was NO REWARDS BOOST. That's what I commented on. Read the Thread again.
We are talking about season 10. There is no reward increase for season 10. Your comments are pointless at this time. Please direct yourself out of the conversation.
We're talking about the new Maps and upcoming changes to War. For which the Rewards will increase with Defence Tactics in Season 11. I know what we're here discussing. I'm not leaving, sorry.

Do you see a boost to rewards? Cause i dont. I really would like to see the increased rewards you’re preaching about lol. All i see is a promise for a potential increase in the future. Season 10 has no increased rewards and is the focal point of current conversation. You’re smart enough to read between the lines and get that lmao no one cares ab season 11 rn. Stop commenting just to comment.

LeNoirFaineant

Defender Kills have nothing to do with intending the Map to be difficult to complete.
They have everything to do with why people were complaining that wars were no longer being determined by skill but by things like defensive rating, not because the map was too easy like you claimed lol. At the time a Mod commented that defensive rating and diversity were determining wars because both sides were 100%ing the map, which wasn't intended, but they have since dropped that as a thing. Making people fail to 100% the map hasn't been a goal for some time. I think you are a little confused on your recollections, but this is an irrelevant tangent so I suggest we drop it.
Defender Kills never stopped people from completing the Map. What it did was cost people for every K.O. Which meant effectively, people were using Resources to increase their chances of losing. Skill to get through the Nodes without dying, perhaps. Not skill for people relying on Defender Kills for Wins. Large amounts of Points accumualted for deaths. Back when the Mystic Barrier was a thing, all people had to do was let the opponent K.O. themselves into a Loss. There were a few reasons they were removed, and the current iteration still encourages people to play skillfully while at the same time not docking them for their efforts and use of Items afterwards. Defender Kills didn't have anything to do with making the Map harder to complete. People were scared to keep trying because every K.O. gave Points.

Wow you are really missing the point. Everything you are saying about the topic is irrelevant. I only brought up defender kills because their removal was the reason people were complaining, rather than what you alleged. Rehashing why they were removed or whether they should have been is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about two totally different things and consequently are talking past each other. It isn't worth trying to come to terms though, because it has little to do with the discussion at hand.

SiriusBreak

I thought they scrapped Defender Rating Points when they scrapped Defender Kill points? Didn't they both go before the addition of Diversity and the current iteration of the War maps? Initial placement rating was able to be manipulated by boosts taboot if I'm not mistaken. This is still true (in a certain sense) as you can Boost right before you place and the initial numbers for your individual defender rating will remained locked in when the game tallies up for MVP (last I checked anyway). Doesn't transfer over to the Map itself though. So weird.

That system was INDEED faulty and the current point system does award more for skill due to attack bonuses. Much better overall. Gotta wonder how much these new nodes will change the final attack bonus outcome... for some it's for sure gonna put a dent in their point output. I REALLY hope we get at MINIMUM 2 war cycles to test this new layout before S10 officially kicks off. I would suspect many will complain about difficulty, while others will praise the Challenge. Can't please everyone afterall, lol.

LeNoirFaineant

I thought they scrapped Defender Rating Points when they scrapped Defender Kill points? Didn't they both go before the addition of Diversity and the current iteration of the War maps? Initial placement rating was able to be manipulated by boosts taboot if I'm not mistaken. This is still true (in a certain sense) as you can Boost right before you place and the initial numbers for your individual defender rating will remained locked in when the game tallies up for MVP (last I checked anyway). Doesn't transfer over to the Map itself though. So weird.

That system was INDEED faulty and the current point system does award more for skill due to attack bonuses. Much better overall. Gotta wonder how much these new nodes will change the final attack bonus outcome... for some it's for sure gonna put a dent in their point output. I REALLY hope we get at MINIMUM 2 war cycles to test this new layout before S10 officially kicks off. I would suspect many will complain about difficulty, while others will praise the Challenge. Can't please everyone afterall, lol.

No there was a time during the various iterations where there were no defender kills and no attack bonus and both sides could max diversity, so if both sides completed 100% the only thing left was defensive rating, in which case the war was really over before it started.

GroundedWisdom

Defender Kills have nothing to do with intending the Map to be difficult to complete.
They have everything to do with why people were complaining that wars were no longer being determined by skill but by things like defensive rating, not because the map was too easy like you claimed lol. At the time a Mod commented that defensive rating and diversity were determining wars because both sides were 100%ing the map, which wasn't intended, but they have since dropped that as a thing. Making people fail to 100% the map hasn't been a goal for some time. I think you are a little confused on your recollections, but this is an irrelevant tangent so I suggest we drop it.
Defender Kills never stopped people from completing the Map. What it did was cost people for every K.O. Which meant effectively, people were using Resources to increase their chances of losing. Skill to get through the Nodes without dying, perhaps. Not skill for people relying on Defender Kills for Wins. Large amounts of Points accumualted for deaths. Back when the Mystic Barrier was a thing, all people had to do was let the opponent K.O. themselves into a Loss. There were a few reasons they were removed, and the current iteration still encourages people to play skillfully while at the same time not docking them for their efforts and use of Items afterwards. Defender Kills didn't have anything to do with making the Map harder to complete. People were scared to keep trying because every K.O. gave Points.
Wow you are really missing the point. Everything you are saying about the topic is irrelevant. I only brought up defender kills because their removal was the reason people were complaining, rather than what you alleged. Rehashing why they were removed or whether they should have been is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about two totally different things and consequently are talking past each other. It isn't worth trying to come to terms though, because it has little to do with the discussion at hand.

I'm not missing the point at all. You're missing a timeline. I commented on when the comment was made about reaching 100% to be rare. That was when the issue was that both sides were completing 100%. Defender Rating was removed, yes. That wasn't the argument. That was earlier. The argument was against Diversity. There were several arguments during iterations, and they still stemmed from people being unhappy they were removed.

GroundedWisdom

In any event, the point I had originally was there's no sense in going over the past, comments made during other changes had to do with things going on at that time. Somehow that turned into going further into it.

SiriusBreak

I thought they scrapped Defender Rating Points when they scrapped Defender Kill points? Didn't they both go before the addition of Diversity and the current iteration of the War maps? Initial placement rating was able to be manipulated by boosts taboot if I'm not mistaken. This is still true (in a certain sense) as you can Boost right before you place and the initial numbers for your individual defender rating will remained locked in when the game tallies up for MVP (last I checked anyway). Doesn't transfer over to the Map itself though. So weird.

That system was INDEED faulty and the current point system does award more for skill due to attack bonuses. Much better overall. Gotta wonder how much these new nodes will change the final attack bonus outcome... for some it's for sure gonna put a dent in their point output. I REALLY hope we get at MINIMUM 2 war cycles to test this new layout before S10 officially kicks off. I would suspect many will complain about difficulty, while others will praise the Challenge. Can't please everyone afterall, lol.
No there was a time during the various iterations where there were no defender kills and no attack bonus and both sides could max diversity, so if both sides completed 100% the only thing left was defensive rating, in which case the war was really over before it started.

Hrmmm... my memory must be going, lol. I do remember the days of Defender Kills and Rating points though. *shrug* Oh well...

GroundedWisdom

I thought they scrapped Defender Rating Points when they scrapped Defender Kill points? Didn't they both go before the addition of Diversity and the current iteration of the War maps? Initial placement rating was able to be manipulated by boosts taboot if I'm not mistaken. This is still true (in a certain sense) as you can Boost right before you place and the initial numbers for your individual defender rating will remained locked in when the game tallies up for MVP (last I checked anyway). Doesn't transfer over to the Map itself though. So weird.

That system was INDEED faulty and the current point system does award more for skill due to attack bonuses. Much better overall. Gotta wonder how much these new nodes will change the final attack bonus outcome... for some it's for sure gonna put a dent in their point output. I REALLY hope we get at MINIMUM 2 war cycles to test this new layout before S10 officially kicks off. I would suspect many will complain about difficulty, while others will praise the Challenge. Can't please everyone afterall, lol.
No there was a time during the various iterations where there were no defender kills and no attack bonus and both sides could max diversity, so if both sides completed 100% the only thing left was defensive rating, in which case the war was really over before it started.
Hrmmm... my memory must be going, lol. I do remember the days of Defender Kills and Rating points though. *shrug* Oh well...

He's right. It was still a thing for some time. There was also an argument to the War being determined before it started in terms of Rating, but the same argument was made to Diversity, along with other arguments. Lol.

SiriusBreak

Let’s recap:
No changes to war rewards even tho there maybe an unintentional increase in difficulty in season 10.
War rewards will increase after we increase difficulty with Defender tactics in Season 11.
But. Defender tactics will be on in season 10 for certain tiers.
But we did not disclose this on the initial posting.
Sounds like a bait a switch.
Let’s be honest. Do what you say, and nobody else will cry.
Be honest, up front. Do not come back 2 weeks later and say “oops, we forgot to say it will be XXXX.
That’s Is clearly bait and switch.

I don't think Defender Tactics will be available for any tier during Season 10. They wanted to roll it out all at once, but feedback from the Season 10 Beta suggested it was too much at once. The difficulty increase is apparent though regardless. Not quite sure where the bait and switch comes in here.

Ebbtide

Hey everybody,

To answer those questions on what these new Buffs are, we've just added a new Chart to the Original Post that includes a description of each of them. You can also see it here:

How do these interact with Champions, both for Attack and Defense?

Inverted Bleed Immunity:
Defense:
-Does this function like the Passive Bleed Punisher gets from Specials 2 and 3? If Punisher is on Defense and attacks the opponent, will he be able to Bleed them from hits?
-Does Elektra reduce ability accuracy here from the debuff?
-Does Void instantly gain a debuff from this?
-Does Carnage get Unblockable Specials from this?

Attack:
-Does removal from things like Infinity War Iron Man's Armor, or Domino's Bleed reduction, or Bishop's Prowess Consumption while Bleeding, or Ghost's Phasing count as things that will trigger the Instant Damage?
-Does this Trigger Cable's Degeneration or Abomination's Poison?
-Will someone like Beast or Old Man Logan, who reduce bleed times, have issues with this node? Can the Passive Bleed be reduced too quickly, or is it on a specific timer?

Quick Nullify:
Attack:
-Does this impact Doctor Voodoo? He avoids Mephisto's Soul Imprisonment. Is it the same interaction with this node?

Buff Toggle; Unstoppable:
Attack:
-Can this be Slowed? Just making sure this isn't a loophole node.

Buff Toggle; Unblockable:
...

Boost Buff; Unstoppable:
Defense:
-How does this interact with Rhino, The Champion, Civil War Black Panther, Kingpin, or any defender with Unfazed?

Boost Buff; Armor Up:
Defense:
-How does this interact with Passive Armors (especially for someone like Infinity War Iron Man or Civil Warrior)?

Psychic Thorns:
Attack:
-How does this work with Magneto or Doctor Strange on Attack (or any other fighter that has partial Energy Damage on attacks)?

Power Focus 1 & 2:
Defense:
-How does this work with Power Gain? In the suffer portion, would someone like Cable, Vision, Scarlet Witch or Killmonger gain less power from active or passive power gains? Does this also work with or against Mystic Dispersion?

The Best Defense...:
Defense:
-Will Nightcrawler be fixed for this? He currently is breaking his timer while blocked.

Greater Confusion:
Defense:
-How does this work against Emma Frost? Do her specials briefly make controls function correctly?

Aegis; Intercept:
Defense:
-How does this work with Thor Ragnarok? His chance to Auto-Block is based around intercepts. He needs to be attacked by a Special to counter his power gain.
-How does this work with Auto-Evaders? They won't be able to be parry/hit, and can evade an intercept.

Attack:
-It's still very difficult to intercept on older devices. Making it a function in an Alliance War not only limits a player, but also hurts their team. This also is an issue because many fights also have way too defensive of AI. If someone like Mordo, Hyperion, Cable, Doctor Strange, or other power gaining fighters are on this node, there might not be a chance to damage or combat them before they build to something like Special 3.

Aegis; Heavy:
Defense:
-How does this work with Civil War Black Panther? When awakened, heavy attacks can make him go Unstoppable.
-How does this work with Darkhawk? Heavying him will put him into auto-block mode, making the fight more tedious.

PincheChingon

Beta was held on Expert map. My belief was higher tiers were getting a new map like beginner/normal had a different map. Seems like that wasn't the case and no feedback was requested or received from players in the middle tiers.

So is Defense Tactics going to affect all tiers? Even when you tried to introduce the global node before it was only tried on the top tiers then because they had the roster depth.

We only plan on adding Defense Tactics to Tiers 1-5 at this time (Expert and Challenger Maps), but still wanted to update the Maps for all Tiers.

Says it will be added. No additional rewards, with unintentional added difficulty.
Where was this writing In the original post?

unknown

This content has been removed.

PincheChingon

Oringial post says “ we will not change maps and add defender tactics at the same time, because the change was too much.
But “We will add it to certain tiers” later on or as we feel fit.
Come on. You have to stick to your original post. Both changes cannot happen based on “your” feedback from the beta testing.
Yet you are still ignoring it anyways.
What is they point of beta testing?

GroundedWisdom

Where did you get that from? Defense Tactics will be added in Season 11. The Maps are changing for Season 10.

PincheChingon

Where did you get that from? Defense Tactics will be added in Season 11. The Maps are changing for Season 10.

Kabam Miike posted it. I just quote it.
Perhaps @Kabam Miike needs to address when Defender tactics will take place.
He said up there it will take place for Tiers1-5. But DID not specify WHEN it would take place. Season 10, 11, 12, 99?
Or maybe when DCU takes over? 😂

All we want is clear explanation of when and what will take place.
Is that too much to ask for?

SiriusBreak

@GroundedWisdom he's right. Miike did say that earlier in the thread. Although I don't think it's spot on. Gonna wait til tomorrow for him to clarify this.

SiriusBreak

Err... later today I should say, lol.