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Alliance Wars - Defense Tactics and Rewards Update Discussion Thread

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Comments

  • Mitchell35Mitchell35 Posts: 1,897 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    @Kabam Miike you were interested in the differences between aq and aw.

    AQ is better—time and resource wise, as well as reward wise—than AW.

    Look at it this way:



    AQ has almost no current issues except the cost of map 7, pretty much. It’s much more flexible, so if your alliance wants to take a break for a week, they can jump back in the next week. I think AW is at a breaking point right now, where every war is do or die and the season is long enough to warrant game changing rewards.

    A solution is drastic.

    Completely revamp the loyalty store. It’s mostly dated, and no one wants an unstoppable colossus. Put potions, revives, and rainbow boosts in there every day, with the 3 minute boosts rotating. 4, 5, and 6 star shards should be available for appropriate amounts based on how much loyalty is given out. The intended structure would be: get what you need for aw, and if you’ve got extra, here’s some shards for not dying.

    Shorten Seasons— A Lot Probably should be a week and a half or so. 10 days is enough for 5 wars, and it’s also just long enough for a burnt out alliance to recoup. It’s also not so long that people get bored, or the rewards are to big to miss out on. The rewards would be proportionately less, which would take out the feeling of toxic competition and leave you with a more “ah, we’ll get em next time” feeling.

    Pay out the rewards in tiers So this one is sort of a 2 steps forward, one step back type thing. Rewards are sorted by tiers (master, platinum, gold, etc) and put into crystals. Because of the rng, you’d be given more crystals than if they were a flat rate. There’s no “lose” in the crystals—every drop is a comparable value to the other. (Ex: 1000 6*shards, 5000 5* shards, 1/10 of a t5b) The values will no doubt need tuning based on community feedback, but the idea is there.

    The way rewards will look is going to be different for sure. Ex. Plat 1: 50x plat crystals, 200k loyalty
    Plat 2: 35x plat crystals, 175k loyalty etc. This gives more choice (loyalty store) and the ability to save crystals until you’re not in overflow of anything.

    TL;DR read the bold points

    Not sure I can agree with shortening Seasons. They've already been shortened from their original format. One of the reasons the Rewards are as significant as they are is because of the length of Seasons. If we chop it down too much, there's not much left to call a Season, or a competition for that matter. Especially 10 days. Too low IMO.
    That’s precisely why you would chop it down. The competition at present is stifling, and it leaves people burnt out. Cut it down and it’s no longer a big deal if your “season” got derailed. The rewards are proportional so it’s doesn’t matter in the long run if you’re fine with current rewards—they just get paid in installments.
    Cutting it down would result in less Rewards. That would go over like Granite. Lol. Besides, it's the whole point of Seasons to have enough time to gauge a competition. 10 days isn't significant enough to call a competition. There would be no point in having a Season for that little time.
    I modeled the changes after AQ, which only needs 5 days to establish who should get which rewards. I’d say that works pretty well. Of course the rewards would be less, but proportionately so, so that no rewards would be lost in the long run. It would still be competitive, but healthy, a la AQ
    That's just it. They're two totally different game modes. They're not really connected, and War is an interactive competition between Allies. I'm not sure where the comparison came along, perhaps because some are focusing more on AQ. However, they're two totally different structures that aren't meant to be mirrored or comparable.
    But maybe they should be comparable. AQ just works better than war, so it would make sense to imitate it. AW still has the placement strategy, the new global node choices, etc. The only thing mirrored with a shorter season is the flexibility and timeframe.
    AQ works better than War because there are very little variables. Same Maps every week, 5 days a week. There's a rotation, but it's pretty much lather, rinse, repeat.
    War is a different entity with many moving parts. Seasons are competitions within the War Meta that gauge how Alliances place based on the Points they accumulate from start to finish. The length of time is a part of the competition. Two weeks is not really a Season. There's only so much you can shorten it before it just becomes a snapshot rather than a competition.
    There really is no way to coincide both systems to encourage people to play competitively at the top within both, that doesn't involve stress. That just comes with going that hard in both. Not without completely reworking both systems and intertwining them, with paced Rewards on both sides. I'm afraid that's moving backwards from the progress that's already being made. Both systems are such that Alliances receive Rewards for how much they do. If an Ally wants to focus on 5x7, that's up to them. They can try to run Top Tier Wars at the same time, but the risk of burnout is always there. Some are fine with it. Others find it too much. Both systems aren't really meant to be equally as enticing. The goal of Wars isn't to pull people away from AQ. War is a competition. Seasons are competitions within that competition. AQ is just a Points tally based on who runs what.
    I really think we could go on for a long time with this, so let’s just stop here and agree to disagree. (Read: truce?) :tongue:
    No worries. No need for a truce. Debate isn't personal for me. Just discussing ideas. :)
    Yeah idk my vocabulary is weird like that lol
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    edited July 2019
    Kaspy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    @Kabam Miike you were interested in the differences between aq and aw.

    AQ is better—time and resource wise, as well as reward wise—than AW.

    Look at it this way:



    AQ has almost no current issues except the cost of map 7, pretty much. It’s much more flexible, so if your alliance wants to take a break for a week, they can jump back in the next week. I think AW is at a breaking point right now, where every war is do or die and the season is long enough to warrant game changing rewards.

    A solution is drastic.

    Completely revamp the loyalty store. It’s mostly dated, and no one wants an unstoppable colossus. Put potions, revives, and rainbow boosts in there every day, with the 3 minute boosts rotating. 4, 5, and 6 star shards should be available for appropriate amounts based on how much loyalty is given out. The intended structure would be: get what you need for aw, and if you’ve got extra, here’s some shards for not dying.

    Shorten Seasons— A Lot Probably should be a week and a half or so. 10 days is enough for 5 wars, and it’s also just long enough for a burnt out alliance to recoup. It’s also not so long that people get bored, or the rewards are to big to miss out on. The rewards would be proportionately less, which would take out the feeling of toxic competition and leave you with a more “ah, we’ll get em next time” feeling.

    Pay out the rewards in tiers So this one is sort of a 2 steps forward, one step back type thing. Rewards are sorted by tiers (master, platinum, gold, etc) and put into crystals. Because of the rng, you’d be given more crystals than if they were a flat rate. There’s no “lose” in the crystals—every drop is a comparable value to the other. (Ex: 1000 6*shards, 5000 5* shards, 1/10 of a t5b) The values will no doubt need tuning based on community feedback, but the idea is there.

    The way rewards will look is going to be different for sure. Ex. Plat 1: 50x plat crystals, 200k loyalty
    Plat 2: 35x plat crystals, 175k loyalty etc. This gives more choice (loyalty store) and the ability to save crystals until you’re not in overflow of anything.

    TL;DR read the bold points

    Not sure I can agree with shortening Seasons. They've already been shortened from their original format. One of the reasons the Rewards are as significant as they are is because of the length of Seasons. If we chop it down too much, there's not much left to call a Season, or a competition for that matter. Especially 10 days. Too low IMO.
    That’s precisely why you would chop it down. The competition at present is stifling, and it leaves people burnt out. Cut it down and it’s no longer a big deal if your “season” got derailed. The rewards are proportional so it’s doesn’t matter in the long run if you’re fine with current rewards—they just get paid in installments.
    Cutting it down would result in less Rewards. That would go over like Granite. Lol. Besides, it's the whole point of Seasons to have enough time to gauge a competition. 10 days isn't significant enough to call a competition. There would be no point in having a Season for that little time.
    Doesn’t AQ more or less have a “10” day season where you get rank rewards after the cycle. According to your argument that 10 days is not long enough to gauge competition you are basically saying that AQ cycles should be greatly extended.
    No. AQ Seasons are much longer, and have no Rewards at the end. AQ cycles last 5 days and give Rewards based on what Points your Ally puts up relative to other Allies, as well as Peak Milestones. Totally different system. Only similarity is that AQ Rank Rewards and Season Rewards are determined by Points. The means those Points are earned, and the nature of the competitive modes, are very different.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    There's also a guarantee in AQ that isn't in War. War is a live competition. AQ is just a tally board. In AQ, you're not actually playing other Allies. You're doing whatever Maps you choose and Ranking based on what you put up that week. In War, you're competing in a live-action(ish) game mode. There's so many variables in that. It's much, much more competitive.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Mitchell35 said:

    @Kabam Miike you were interested in the differences between aq and aw.

    AQ is better—time and resource wise, as well as reward wise—than AW.

    Look at it this way:



    AQ has almost no current issues except the cost of map 7, pretty much. It’s much more flexible, so if your alliance wants to take a break for a week, they can jump back in the next week. I think AW is at a breaking point right now, where every war is do or die and the season is long enough to warrant game changing rewards.

    A solution is drastic.

    Completely revamp the loyalty store. It’s mostly dated, and no one wants an unstoppable colossus. Put potions, revives, and rainbow boosts in there every day, with the 3 minute boosts rotating. 4, 5, and 6 star shards should be available for appropriate amounts based on how much loyalty is given out. The intended structure would be: get what you need for aw, and if you’ve got extra, here’s some shards for not dying.

    Shorten Seasons— A Lot Probably should be a week and a half or so. 10 days is enough for 5 wars, and it’s also just long enough for a burnt out alliance to recoup. It’s also not so long that people get bored, or the rewards are to big to miss out on. The rewards would be proportionately less, which would take out the feeling of toxic competition and leave you with a more “ah, we’ll get em next time” feeling.

    Pay out the rewards in tiers So this one is sort of a 2 steps forward, one step back type thing. Rewards are sorted by tiers (master, platinum, gold, etc) and put into crystals. Because of the rng, you’d be given more crystals than if they were a flat rate. There’s no “lose” in the crystals—every drop is a comparable value to the other. (Ex: 1000 6*shards, 5000 5* shards, 1/10 of a t5b) The values will no doubt need tuning based on community feedback, but the idea is there.

    The way rewards will look is going to be different for sure. Ex. Plat 1: 50x plat crystals, 200k loyalty
    Plat 2: 35x plat crystals, 175k loyalty etc. This gives more choice (loyalty store) and the ability to save crystals until you’re not in overflow of anything.

    TL;DR read the bold points

    Not sure I can agree with shortening Seasons. They've already been shortened from their original format. One of the reasons the Rewards are as significant as they are is because of the length of Seasons. If we chop it down too much, there's not much left to call a Season, or a competition for that matter. Especially 10 days. Too low IMO.
    That’s precisely why you would chop it down. The competition at present is stifling, and it leaves people burnt out. Cut it down and it’s no longer a big deal if your “season” got derailed. The rewards are proportional so it’s doesn’t matter in the long run if you’re fine with current rewards—they just get paid in installments.
    Cutting it down would result in less Rewards. That would go over like Granite. Lol. Besides, it's the whole point of Seasons to have enough time to gauge a competition. 10 days isn't significant enough to call a competition. There would be no point in having a Season for that little time.
    I modeled the changes after AQ, which only needs 5 days to establish who should get which rewards. I’d say that works pretty well. Of course the rewards would be less, but proportionately so, so that no rewards would be lost in the long run. It would still be competitive, but healthy, a la AQ
    That's just it. They're two totally different game modes. They're not really connected, and War is an interactive competition between Allies. I'm not sure where the comparison came along, perhaps because some are focusing more on AQ. However, they're two totally different structures that aren't meant to be mirrored or comparable.
    But maybe they should be comparable. AQ just works better than war, so it would make sense to imitate it. AW still has the placement strategy, the new global node choices, etc. The only thing mirrored with a shorter season is the flexibility and timeframe.
    AQ works better than War because there are very little variables. Same Maps every week, 5 days a week. There's a rotation, but it's pretty much lather, rinse, repeat.
    War is a different entity with many moving parts. Seasons are competitions within the War Meta that gauge how Alliances place based on the Points they accumulate from start to finish. The length of time is a part of the competition. Two weeks is not really a Season. There's only so much you can shorten it before it just becomes a snapshot rather than a competition.
    There really is no way to coincide both systems to encourage people to play competitively at the top within both, that doesn't involve stress. That just comes with going that hard in both. Not without completely reworking both systems and intertwining them, with paced Rewards on both sides. I'm afraid that's moving backwards from the progress that's already being made. Both systems are such that Alliances receive Rewards for how much they do. If an Ally wants to focus on 5x7, that's up to them. They can try to run Top Tier Wars at the same time, but the risk of burnout is always there. Some are fine with it. Others find it too much. Both systems aren't really meant to be equally as enticing. The goal of Wars isn't to pull people away from AQ. War is a competition. Seasons are competitions within that competition. AQ is just a Points tally based on who runs what.
    I really think we could go on for a long time with this, so let’s just stop here and agree to disagree. (Read: truce?) :tongue:
    No worries. No need for a truce. Debate isn't personal for me. Just discussing ideas. :)
    Yeah idk my vocabulary is weird like that lol
    Nah. I understood what you meant. Just letting you know we're always cool. :)
  • digital-SOBdigital-SOB Posts: 261 ★★
    BadWolf202 said:

    Ridiculous. These rewards would have been decent two seasons ago.

    All the Master rewards should be in platinum, platinum rewards in gold and so on. With the season 10 nodes at the top tier level and these season 11 rewards displayed here do not reflect the cost of item use needed for exploration nor justify using the items to get meh rewards.
    I moved to an AQ only alliance beginning of season 10 and was hoping to go big this season but these rewards are garbage. No AW for me, again.

    I’m glad the win/loss rewards are being buffed and the lower tiers season rewards are too but the top tier is ridiculous for what they would use in items alone just to stay in those tiers much less push to win top ranks.
  • NinjAlanNinjAlan Posts: 358 ★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    There's also a guarantee in AQ that isn't in War. War is a live competition. AQ is just a tally board. In AQ, you're not actually playing other Allies. You're doing whatever Maps you choose and Ranking based on what you put up that week. In War, you're competing in a live-action(ish) game mode. There's so many variables in that. It's much, much more competitive.

    Well here is where you're wrong. There's no guarantee in rank and you're CONSTANTLY competing against other allies for prestige. Which is not dissimilar from competing for top defender/attacker rank ups
  • SandeepSSandeepS Posts: 1,157 ★★★★
    Would be nice if the rewards were active from this season
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    NinjAlan said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    There's also a guarantee in AQ that isn't in War. War is a live competition. AQ is just a tally board. In AQ, you're not actually playing other Allies. You're doing whatever Maps you choose and Ranking based on what you put up that week. In War, you're competing in a live-action(ish) game mode. There's so many variables in that. It's much, much more competitive.

    Well here is where you're wrong. There's no guarantee in rank and you're CONSTANTLY competing against other allies for prestige. Which is not dissimilar from competing for top defender/attacker rank ups
    No. You're guaranteed at least Peak Milestones. You know if you do X Points, you'll get Y Milestone. Plus what you Rank.
    With War, you get variables. You don't know if you'll win or lose because it depends on how the War plays out. Your Rank also depends on performance because the Points you earn depend on what happens in the War. Not at all the same type of system.
  • ThecurlerThecurler Posts: 839 ★★★★
    I’m curious as to how the defence tactics mechanics are going to work...

    The “dodge” buff - let’s say you place NC or classic spidey, will the “dodge” buff stack on top of their existing evade chance?

    In theory you could face a bg with 80% small evade champs... in my ally’s case, if half our players have at least a r4 5* equivalent true strike champ I’d be amazed.

    How many nodes on the new map can you parry with impunity.. not enough lol

    Also, Bulwark and Flow definitely look like another poke in the eye for Corvus :(

  • digital-SOBdigital-SOB Posts: 261 ★★
    AQ and AW are different but very similar in many ways.
    AQ is against champs on the same map without masteries, AW is on the same map with opponents with masteries but both have nodes and buffs that never change. Both use the same revives and potions but AW has specific boosts. You get loyalty, rank up resources from both, glory and battlechips just from AQ, crystals shards just from AW. Both have rewards at the end of a term or season but AQ has alliance events but AW does not.

    For the effort and item usage AQ is far more rewarding than AW.
    I’m in a Gold 3 alliance currently and when this season ends the rewards I will for AW season are less 4*/5* shards than we get in 2 weeks of Summoner Advancement events, for that SA event all you do is play the game at your own pace and style LoL

    The crystals in AW season rewards are terrible, too much trash. It’s like a premium hero crystal or 2* crystal as I call them, you are definitely getting a 2* and once in a blue moon a 3* and rarely in 100’s of crystals will you get a 4*.
    So get rid of AW crystals and give the items directly or remove the trash options altogether or change the rng % so it’s more possible to get the better items
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    Ultra8529 said:

    The lackluster just makes me wonder whether Kabam themselves are trying to take the attention off AW.

    10 Seasons ago when we saw the rewards for the first ever AW Season, the rewards were at a "game-breaking" level. People then had a single Rank 5, and the rewards for top 3 masters basically allowed you to get a 2nd Rank 5 within a single season (which was admittedly then 2 seasons).

    By no stretch can we say that these revamped rewards are at a similar "game-breaking" level. It is really just "more of the same". People with 20 r5 5*s can now have a chance to get an extra T5B per month. Nobody is getting the rarest and most exclusive rank up materials - T5CC - to ensure that they can do a r3 6* after a single season (or 2 given that the season duration was halved).

    The Rewards introduced were not game-breaking. That would be a bad thing. Game-changing perhaps. However, nowhere was it said the revamp would be equally as game-changing. They were revisited. I'm not entirely sure how the expectation comes in to R3 a 6* every Season, but that's likely coming with Act 6. An R3 6* each Season could potentially be game-breaking.
  • xNigxNig Posts: 7,242 ★★★★★
    LeNoirFaineant said:

    People are still dying way more on this map without the defensive tactics. We beat a group in plat 1 last war that died 99 times. Enough time has elapsed that if the difficulty were roughly equivalent as @Kabam Miike alleges, that wouldn't be happening. Adding defensive tactics is only going to make it worse. I like the map generally speaking but the nodes have been harder with the same rewards. They are about to make it even harder with a mediocre buff to the rewards and the same garbage crystals. Kind of tempted to drop to a gold alliance next season but IDK

    Haha. I think that could have been my ally. We decided mid season that it wasn’t worth the effort and stopped using items and boosting up. So most fights were L1/2 revives and try to get it down. 😂😂
  • BulmktBulmkt Posts: 1,545 ★★★★
    How about turning on synergies for AW Defence?
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    Bulmkt said:

    How about turning on synergies for AW Defence?

    How about not making war defence harder
  • Kobster84Kobster84 Posts: 2,898 ★★★★★
    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    He means where you can buy stuff like shards and sig stones I believe
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Indrick781 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    @Lormif instead of saying that RNG will even out the randomness, why not propose a positive argument to justify the introduction in the first place? If the aim of randomness is ultimately for there to be an evening out of the rewards such that consistently placing in the higher bracket should give you more rewards in the long term than someone consistently placing in the lower bracket, why do that through the mechanism of RNG instead of just ensured higher rewards for a higher bracket?

    We don't see random prizes being awarded in sporting competitions. So why here?

    1) A positive reason to do it is to help keep the curv from becoming completely unattainable. We will now start getting t5cc, where as the lower alliances will not. Allowing them a chance to be an outlier and get more upgrade mats allows people to catch up to us if they have the skill...

    2) Random prizes are given in sporting events, even still this is not a sporting event.
    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Greywarden said:

    DTMelodicMetal said:

    Greywarden said:

    Season end war crystals can be removed entirely and replaced with a static amount of t5b or t2a. RNG should be left for champion crystals and not rewards for a competition. It's like finishing 1st place in a race but the guy who finished 10th is getting paid more.

    Working as intended
    Yup, totally makes sense. It's like Jeremy Lin getting a championship ring......oh wait that actually happened.
    except they are not. the same thing. Over the course of events the person who finishes 1st will get vastly more, it is just in the short term there is a possibility of him getting more once. why are so many people bad at stats.
    The problem with your argument is sample size. Over the course of a full year there will be 8-9 AW seasons assuming 2 week off seasons. A master ally gets 6 AW season crystals each season while a plat 3 ally gets 5 AW seasons crystals. That’s a total of 8-9 more crystals per year which is statistically irrelevant when the range of outcomes in the crystals is so large.
    Its funny that you guys like to keep changing the argument, one time it was a gold vs plat, now it is master vs plat. Statistically the higher alliance member will come out on top. All this jealously because someone got lucky is absurd. It is like getting mad because you bought 10 cavs and someone else bought 1 cav and they got a 6* but you didnt.
    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Greywarden said:

    DTMelodicMetal said:

    Greywarden said:

    Season end war crystals can be removed entirely and replaced with a static amount of t5b or t2a. RNG should be left for champion crystals and not rewards for a competition. It's like finishing 1st place in a race but the guy who finished 10th is getting paid more.

    Working as intended
    Yup, totally makes sense. It's like Jeremy Lin getting a championship ring......oh wait that actually happened.
    except they are not. the same thing. Over the course of events the person who finishes 1st will get vastly more, it is just in the short term there is a possibility of him getting more once. why are so many people bad at stats.
    The problem with your argument is sample size. Over the course of a full year there will be 8-9 AW seasons assuming 2 week off seasons. A master ally gets 6 AW season crystals each season while a plat 3 ally gets 5 AW seasons crystals. That’s a total of 8-9 more crystals per year which is statistically irrelevant when the range of outcomes in the crystals is so large.
    Its funny that you guys like to keep changing the argument, one time it was a gold vs plat, now it is master vs plat. Statistically the higher alliance member will come out on top. All this jealously because someone got lucky is absurd. It is like getting mad because you bought 10 cavs and someone else bought 1 cav and they got a 6* but you didnt.
    Also not a good argument because you are choosing to purchase a crystal with known drop rates. I think it’s awesome whenever people get lucky on those, good for them. AW season crystals are different in that they are a reward for a game mode with vastly different ranges of skill and effort.
    You are still buying (by playing war) a crystal with a variable drop rate. The argument is exactly the same, just the currency you are buying it with is different..
    I’ll participate in a reasonable counterpoint but this just shows me you have no idea what you’re talking about. That’s a huge stretch to equate those.
    Best argument you have is an ad hominem? How many times have I head sports teams say that they purchased something with their blood sweat and tears? Your currency is your participation and effort. That you cannot see that is not on me.
    1. So your point is basically what I mentioned a few pages back - that RNG is intended to allow weaker players to leapfrog and catch up to higher players. Once you realise that, then it should be obvious why people at the top are unhappy about these rewards. Your recognition of the possibility of an "outlier" also completely goes against the grain of your initial argument that it will all even out eventually and a player consistently placing higher will get overall better rewards.

    2. I don't see what random rewards tennis players get, or soccer players, or golf etc. You win the tournament, you get a fixed prize money. You get to the semis, you get another sum.
    1) No it does not in any way go again the grain. There is a large enough sample to understand that someone with one crystal beating someone with 5 crystals is an outlier. In addition I do not mind giving players a random chance to catch up. Remember they are not leap frogging, they are catching up, assuming their skill is on par, because they still are not getting all the level up mats you are, or shards.
    2) Tennis and soccer and gold players are all sports players? Fallacy much?
    1. Why should even 1 player who is consistently placing gold get better rewards in the long term (as an "outlier") than a player consistently placing master or plat?

    2. Instead of denouncing the examples I have cited, why don't you give examples of actual sporting events where rewards are random?
    1) because it gives them a chance to catch up, assuming their skills are good enough.... This has already been established, why does it need to be repeated. The better question is why all the jealousy that someone got something better than you in rng (see again opening 10 cavs vs opening 1), You are still getting a totality of better rewards.

    2) because you created a fallacy, so I pointed it out. That being said any event that gives out rewards of a spot in another random event (like poker), and I have seen sporting events where the rewards were lottery tickets.
    1. If their skills are good enough, but they are consistently placing in Gold, why should they get better rewards than someone consistently placing in Plat or Master (even if such a player has inferior skills)? You cannot say that there is a better totality of rewards when the exact point being discussed is that the RNG allows a player who places lower to get better rewards than a player who places higher. Why should they have a chance to catch up by placing in gold? If they want to catch up, then move up the ladder and place in Plat or Master.

    2. Poker wins the pot on the table. That is a fixed amount he knows what he is getting into, and the potential prize, when he makes the decision to play. Next example if any?
    Placing in gold is not an indictment of an individual players skill, but of the team players skill. Trying to assume that a player is less skilled than you is very bad when it is a group event. In addition seeing how there are 9 lanes someone in a master alliance can theortically carry 1 person who could be level what ever.

    1)Also I CAN say that there are better overall rewards. A player who goes with master for instance by defailt gets 5500 6* shards, and 10k 5* shards. Even if you dont think of those as the main rewards you will still get 2 t4bc, almost a whole t5bc, 1 t2a cats and T5cc shards The gold player will get no t5cc, will get 1 t4bc and 9000 t5bc and 1800 t2ac. There is virtually no way that overall he will come out ahead of you.

    2) You dont seem to know much about poker. When you play in the lower events you are playing for a spot in another event, which is still a random event. In addition you know what you are getting into and the potential prize when you make your decision, nice try, next argument?
    2. Only in tournaments where that is the prize, aka a known prize. When you play tournament poker, you buy in knowing what the potential prizes are. Sometimes they change slightly depending on late registrations, but overall you know you're not going to get a random ticket to another tournament. You know what you're getting into. In a cash game, the pot is never random. You can win whatever is in the pot, but that is based entirely on betting, blinds and antes. You have no idea what you're talking about when you are talking about poker. I play between 100-200 tournaments yearly, including WPT and WSOP events.
    Except you just litterally confirmed what I stated. Those are games where the prize is not set.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    Maybe so, but the currency was created specifically for AQ. Pots and Revs have been usable in both well before Glory existed.
  • Kobster84Kobster84 Posts: 2,898 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    Maybe so, but the currency was created specifically for AQ. Pots and Revs have been usable in both well before Glory existed.
    To be honest I actually like the idea of there being a currency for war
    I think it should have pots same as glory store this could actually alleviate peoples annoyance with how pots haven’t been upgraded as you could get more
    It should have shards from premium to 6* shards
    I think sig stones as well possibly for 6 stars but at a high price
    Also awakening gems but again at a very high price
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    Kobster84 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    Maybe so, but the currency was created specifically for AQ. Pots and Revs have been usable in both well before Glory existed.
    To be honest I actually like the idea of there being a currency for war
    I think it should have pots same as glory store this could actually alleviate peoples annoyance with how pots haven’t been upgraded as you could get more
    It should have shards from premium to 6* shards
    I think sig stones as well possibly for 6 stars but at a high price
    Also awakening gems but again at a very high price
    I think if they added more to the Loyalty Store and reworked the Loyalty coming, that could alleviate some things. Pots and Revs are both the same because both AQ and AW are Alliance Events. I suspect they didn't want to create separate Pots at the time. It also encourages decision-making. You need to choose your Revs carefully.
  • Kobster84Kobster84 Posts: 2,898 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Kobster84 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    Maybe so, but the currency was created specifically for AQ. Pots and Revs have been usable in both well before Glory existed.
    To be honest I actually like the idea of there being a currency for war
    I think it should have pots same as glory store this could actually alleviate peoples annoyance with how pots haven’t been upgraded as you could get more
    It should have shards from premium to 6* shards
    I think sig stones as well possibly for 6 stars but at a high price
    Also awakening gems but again at a very high price
    I think if they added more to the Loyalty Store and reworked the Loyalty coming, that could alleviate some things. Pots and Revs are both the same because both AQ and AW are Alliance Events. I suspect they didn't want to create separate Pots at the time. It also encourages decision-making. You need to choose your Revs carefully.
    I think if they increased the amount of loyalty gained and added the items I suggested it would be great
    Possibly like 1 million for a 5* awakening gem crystal
    100k for 2.5k 5* shards stuff like that
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,234 ★★★★★
    edited July 2019
    Kobster84 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Kobster84 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Indrick781 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Vdh2008 said:

    Why not just ADD Glory to the AW side of things? Each war we could get a decent amount of Glory to save or spend on whatever we like... If that was the case, these trash rewards would actually balance out.

    One reason I could think is that Glory is a byproduct of AQ, exclusive to that mode. I suppose they could add another currency and a War Store (fun to say). That may come with a rebalancing of the Rewards.
    Every pot bought in the glory store is usable in AQ and AW.
    Maybe so, but the currency was created specifically for AQ. Pots and Revs have been usable in both well before Glory existed.
    To be honest I actually like the idea of there being a currency for war
    I think it should have pots same as glory store this could actually alleviate peoples annoyance with how pots haven’t been upgraded as you could get more
    It should have shards from premium to 6* shards
    I think sig stones as well possibly for 6 stars but at a high price
    Also awakening gems but again at a very high price
    I think if they added more to the Loyalty Store and reworked the Loyalty coming, that could alleviate some things. Pots and Revs are both the same because both AQ and AW are Alliance Events. I suspect they didn't want to create separate Pots at the time. It also encourages decision-making. You need to choose your Revs carefully.
    I think if they increased the amount of loyalty gained and added the items I suggested it would be great
    Possibly like 1 million for a 5* awakening gem crystal
    100k for 2.5k 5* shards stuff like that
    It's an idea. I think the main issue people have is the End-Game Ranking Mats. If they placed limits on the Frags made available, that could allow people to choose more of what they wanted, and counterbalance some of the frustration from RNG. They could also have other Items. The only drawback (at the moment) I see would be people complaining they run out of Loyalty for AQ. It would have to be very clear that should you choose to spend all your Loyalty, you will have none to contribute for AQ.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Indrick781 said:

    Lormif said:

    Indrick781 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    Lormif said:

    Ultra8529 said:

    @Lormif instead of saying that RNG will even out the randomness, why not propose a positive argument to justify the introduction in the first place? If the aim of randomness is ultimately for there to be an evening out of the rewards such that consistently placing in the higher bracket should give you more rewards in the long term than someone consistently placing in the lower bracket, why do that through the mechanism of RNG instead of just ensured higher rewards for a higher bracket?

    We don't see random prizes being awarded in sporting competitions. So why here?

    1) A positive reason to do it is to help keep the curv from becoming completely unattainable. We will now start getting t5cc, where as the lower alliances will not. Allowing them a chance to be an outlier and get more upgrade mats allows people to catch up to us if they have the skill...

    2) Random prizes are given in sporting events, even still this is not a sporting event.
    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Greywarden said:

    DTMelodicMetal said:

    Greywarden said:

    Season end war crystals can be removed entirely and replaced with a static amount of t5b or t2a. RNG should be left for champion crystals and not rewards for a competition. It's like finishing 1st place in a race but the guy who finished 10th is getting paid more.

    Working as intended
    Yup, totally makes sense. It's like Jeremy Lin getting a championship ring......oh wait that actually happened.
    except they are not. the same thing. Over the course of events the person who finishes 1st will get vastly more, it is just in the short term there is a possibility of him getting more once. why are so many people bad at stats.
    The problem with your argument is sample size. Over the course of a full year there will be 8-9 AW seasons assuming 2 week off seasons. A master ally gets 6 AW season crystals each season while a plat 3 ally gets 5 AW seasons crystals. That’s a total of 8-9 more crystals per year which is statistically irrelevant when the range of outcomes in the crystals is so large.
    Its funny that you guys like to keep changing the argument, one time it was a gold vs plat, now it is master vs plat. Statistically the higher alliance member will come out on top. All this jealously because someone got lucky is absurd. It is like getting mad because you bought 10 cavs and someone else bought 1 cav and they got a 6* but you didnt.
    Lormif said:

    Eric987 said:

    Lormif said:

    Greywarden said:

    DTMelodicMetal said:

    Greywarden said:

    Season end war crystals can be removed entirely and replaced with a static amount of t5b or t2a. RNG should be left for champion crystals and not rewards for a competition. It's like finishing 1st place in a race but the guy who finished 10th is getting paid more.

    Working as intended
    Yup, totally makes sense. It's like Jeremy Lin getting a championship ring......oh wait that actually happened.
    except they are not. the same thing. Over the course of events the person who finishes 1st will get vastly more, it is just in the short term there is a possibility of him getting more once. why are so many people bad at stats.
    The problem with your argument is sample size. Over the course of a full year there will be 8-9 AW seasons assuming 2 week off seasons. A master ally gets 6 AW season crystals each season while a plat 3 ally gets 5 AW seasons crystals. That’s a total of 8-9 more crystals per year which is statistically irrelevant when the range of outcomes in the crystals is so large.
    Its funny that you guys like to keep changing the argument, one time it was a gold vs plat, now it is master vs plat. Statistically the higher alliance member will come out on top. All this jealously because someone got lucky is absurd. It is like getting mad because you bought 10 cavs and someone else bought 1 cav and they got a 6* but you didnt.
    Also not a good argument because you are choosing to purchase a crystal with known drop rates. I think it’s awesome whenever people get lucky on those, good for them. AW season crystals are different in that they are a reward for a game mode with vastly different ranges of skill and effort.
    You are still buying (by playing war) a crystal with a variable drop rate. The argument is exactly the same, just the currency you are buying it with is different..
    I’ll participate in a reasonable counterpoint but this just shows me you have no idea what you’re talking about. That’s a huge stretch to equate those.
    Best argument you have is an ad hominem? How many times have I head sports teams say that they purchased something with their blood sweat and tears? Your currency is your participation and effort. That you cannot see that is not on me.
    1. So your point is basically what I mentioned a few pages back - that RNG is intended to allow weaker players to leapfrog and catch up to higher players. Once you realise that, then it should be obvious why people at the top are unhappy about these rewards. Your recognition of the possibility of an "outlier" also completely goes against the grain of your initial argument that it will all even out eventually and a player consistently placing higher will get overall better rewards.

    2. I don't see what random rewards tennis players get, or soccer players, or golf etc. You win the tournament, you get a fixed prize money. You get to the semis, you get another sum.
    1) No it does not in any way go again the grain. There is a large enough sample to understand that someone with one crystal beating someone with 5 crystals is an outlier. In addition I do not mind giving players a random chance to catch up. Remember they are not leap frogging, they are catching up, assuming their skill is on par, because they still are not getting all the level up mats you are, or shards.
    2) Tennis and soccer and gold players are all sports players? Fallacy much?
    1. Why should even 1 player who is consistently placing gold get better rewards in the long term (as an "outlier") than a player consistently placing master or plat?

    2. Instead of denouncing the examples I have cited, why don't you give examples of actual sporting events where rewards are random?
    1) because it gives them a chance to catch up, assuming their skills are good enough.... This has already been established, why does it need to be repeated. The better question is why all the jealousy that someone got something better than you in rng (see again opening 10 cavs vs opening 1), You are still getting a totality of better rewards.

    2) because you created a fallacy, so I pointed it out. That being said any event that gives out rewards of a spot in another random event (like poker), and I have seen sporting events where the rewards were lottery tickets.
    1. If their skills are good enough, but they are consistently placing in Gold, why should they get better rewards than someone consistently placing in Plat or Master (even if such a player has inferior skills)? You cannot say that there is a better totality of rewards when the exact point being discussed is that the RNG allows a player who places lower to get better rewards than a player who places higher. Why should they have a chance to catch up by placing in gold? If they want to catch up, then move up the ladder and place in Plat or Master.

    2. Poker wins the pot on the table. That is a fixed amount he knows what he is getting into, and the potential prize, when he makes the decision to play. Next example if any?
    Placing in gold is not an indictment of an individual players skill, but of the team players skill. Trying to assume that a player is less skilled than you is very bad when it is a group event. In addition seeing how there are 9 lanes someone in a master alliance can theortically carry 1 person who could be level what ever.

    1)Also I CAN say that there are better overall rewards. A player who goes with master for instance by defailt gets 5500 6* shards, and 10k 5* shards. Even if you dont think of those as the main rewards you will still get 2 t4bc, almost a whole t5bc, 1 t2a cats and T5cc shards The gold player will get no t5cc, will get 1 t4bc and 9000 t5bc and 1800 t2ac. There is virtually no way that overall he will come out ahead of you.

    2) You dont seem to know much about poker. When you play in the lower events you are playing for a spot in another event, which is still a random event. In addition you know what you are getting into and the potential prize when you make your decision, nice try, next argument?
    2. Only in tournaments where that is the prize, aka a known prize. When you play tournament poker, you buy in knowing what the potential prizes are. Sometimes they change slightly depending on late registrations, but overall you know you're not going to get a random ticket to another tournament. You know what you're getting into. In a cash game, the pot is never random. You can win whatever is in the pot, but that is based entirely on betting, blinds and antes. You have no idea what you're talking about when you are talking about poker. I play between 100-200 tournaments yearly, including WPT and WSOP events.
    Except you just litterally confirmed what I stated. Those are games where the prize is not set.
    Not really. Every tournament has a guaranteed prize. The prize pool only increases with people who late reg. You know going in what is possible.
    Every touney has a set prize and some also have a random prize
  • MisFit7GottiMisFit7Gotti Posts: 72 ★
    I'm hoping you all let the champs use synergies on defense since war is so easy to beat we need more of a challenge
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