She-Hulk Heavy Speed Bug Fix [Title Edited for Clarity]

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Comments

  • BalzSoLo_1BalzSoLo_1 Posts: 4
    @Kabam Miike read my post plz sir. It’s above this one
  • iRetr0iRetr0 Posts: 1,175 ★★★★
    Forced update, you joking? I was shocked when I got that, and I guess it "FIXES" She-Hulk
  • jnikolas92jnikolas92 Posts: 125 ★★
    @Kabam Lyra very thankful that the team came to this conclusion.
  • DTMelodicMetalDTMelodicMetal Posts: 2,777 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:


    Those articles discussed hit boxes, and a peculiarity to how Unity combines collision detection and frame rate synchronization. If for some reason you can't render frames fast enough to be real time, you have two options: slow down or skip frames. Unity skips frames (at least it does in the version MCOC uses according to DS) and because it doesn't interpolate collisions it can actually fail to render the moment when two things collide, and thus not even know they collided.

    I don't think that's relevant here. This is more of a rhythm thing. I'm not an expert on Unity, but I know the basics of attack chaining in combat games. When I'm attacking with standard attacks the AI can't attack back with standard attacks, or combat wouldn't work. There are mechanics that basically say that when I execute a light attack there's a period of time during which the target can't actively control movement, and when the target can't activate attacks (these two things are often different: you can often move at times when you can't activate attacks). Our ability to chain attacks together up to a point but no farther is baked into how the attacks work: if we follow attack X with attack Y fast enough, there's no moment in time when the opponent can counterattack. But if we're too slow and we leave a gap in between X and Y, the AI can sneak an attack in the middle. When we use our second medium we ourselves are unable to attack for a window of time, and that window is long enough that the AI "escapes" his temporary inability to attack, and can attack back. This is what eventually truncates our attacks.

    I suspect that the combination of all of these effects and how they interact with each other is referred to internally at Kabam as "cadence." And every champion probably is supposed to honor the same cadence rules: two mediums force a pause in the chain, as does four lights. This allows the AI to attack back. You have to hold a heavy to "charge" it for some minimum length of time, and I'm guessing this hold time is supposed to be longer than the "suppression" you place on your target when using light and medium attacks. This prevents sticking a heavy at the end of a combo sequence without the AI having an opportunity to attack back. This is probably also a "cadence" rule. But it's apparently also a rule the game isn't following, and thus the players have no way to know it exists.

    I don't think DS has ever dug into these specific mechanics, but even if he did he could only figure out what the game does, not what rules the developers are supposedly following when they use those action primitives.

    DickSlug doesn’t discuss “cadence” or speed of attack animations in the articles I provided. I cited those articles because MCOC’s hitboxes/collision detection are one aspect of what Miike referred to as cadence. Here’s a source to support this statement:

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/69622/intercepting-is-broken-video-evidence-provided/

    The above thread is from May of last year. I posted the thread in the forum’s general discussion section because I wasn’t sure if it was a bug. A moderator moved the thread to the forum’s bug section for “easier tracking”. Fifteen months later and the mechanics discussed in that thread (slow motion video evidence was provided) have not changed. If all champions had the same speed and cadence to their attacks, that bug should have been fixed by now.

    Instead, all female champions that have overhead axe kicks as their 1st medium attacks - Storm, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Magik - still counter well-timed intercepts because their later than average contact point on their medium attacks combine with MCOC unity engine hitboxes mechanics to create cadence that is not seen in other champions’ medium attacks. Some champions display similar attack animation behavior, but these champions distance themselves from their opponents before starting their medium attack animations (e.g., Guillotine, Heimdall, Iron Man Infinity War, Nick Fury).

    Futhermore, there have been times when statements from one Kabam employee have been previously or later contradicted by Kabam employee. Examples include Archangel’s neurotoxin overriding stun immunity and She-Hulk’s and Spider-Gwen’s slow ability being said to not work against the 6.2.6 Champion boss. When these things happen, players don’t know which source of information is accurate. Returning to that thread I posted fifteen months ago, I assumed DickSlug’s explanation of unity engine hitbox/whiffing mechanics was accurate. Why else would a cadence anomaly that affects 6 different champions not be acknowledged for more than a year when slow-motion video evidence had been provided?
  • OrdalcaOrdalca Posts: 384 ★★
    edited August 29
    "We are working on the steps required to create She-Hulk specific Rank Down Tickets and gather a list of players impacted to provide this compensation." via their announcement.
  • DTMelodicMetalDTMelodicMetal Posts: 2,777 ★★★★★

    Hi all,

    Please see our announcement related to compensation for this issue.

  • mitchy231mitchy231 Posts: 24
    I am really glad that the right thing was done here. Thanks for hearing us Kabam.
  • ShinyuuShinyuu Posts: 36
    edited August 29
    Thank you for listening
  • V1PER1987V1PER1987 Posts: 3,474 ★★★★★
    So although it wasn’t addressed directly, it was indirectly stated that other champs that can chain heavy attacks like OML will eventually be fixed as well right?
  • JestressJestress Posts: 1,194 ★★★★
    Thank you for doing the right thing.

    This is only the first step though. Their announcement mentions that no characters are meant to be able to heavy chain after a combo except Wasp. It’s clear that She Hulk was chosen because her heavy inflicts extra abilities and this was making certain content very easy. So how will Kabam deal with the other characters that can chain into a heavy?
  • JestressJestress Posts: 1,194 ★★★★
    V1PER1987 said:

    So although it wasn’t addressed directly, it was indirectly stated that other champs that can chain heavy attacks like OML will eventually be fixed as well right?

    Great minds
  • RogerRabsRogerRabs Posts: 295 ★★★

    Hi all,

    Please see our announcement related to compensation for this issue.

    Glad you made the right decision, but please follow through on your promise to have better communication moving forward. It is key to a healthy game.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 2,537 ★★★★★
    I'd gladly still take that dormammu RDT lol
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 449 ★★★
    Great decision here kabam. Thank you for listening to your players.

    Not trying to add any argument or keep anything going but I have a legitimate question going back to Miikes original statement.

    Should we be worried about other champs who have the ability to chain their combo into their heavy attack? Both of the champs in the beta now and many others as provided on this thread have this ability as well. Some more clarification on this so we can make rank up decisions would be very helpful. And maybe some clarification on abilities that aren’t specifically listed on their champion in game descriptions?
  • FishweaselFishweasel Posts: 62
    @Kabam Lyra thank you for listening to your customer feedback
  • RasiloverRasilover Posts: 299 ★★
    Wow they actually listened to the community for once
  • Hi all,

    Please see our announcement related to compensation for this issue.

    Question is, if I rank her up now, will I still be eligible for the rank down ticket compensation?

    Also, part of the discussion here is about the Champion boss on 6.2.6. From the conversation it looked like you were thinking on a way to fix this fight, in order to make it more fair, balanced and probably "fun", since only 2 or 3 champions are able to do this fight. Are you still discussing what you will be making in order to tune down the fight?

    And what about the earlier nerf on she-hulk, with this last forced update? You gave a timeframe for people to be ready for it, and now is meaningless since the nerf went live
  • naeblisrexnaeblisrex Posts: 12
    I have follow up questions about the she-hulk specific RDTs. How far will we be able to rank her down? Also, will we get back the gold & ISO used to rank her up?
  • Nerfed2DefNerfed2Def Posts: 286 ★★
    Obviously the right thing. It is however appreciated.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 2,854 ★★★★

    INTEGRAL said:

    I agree with Integral ^

    You agree with... yourself?
    Old joke from the old forums, had to be there. Had it as my signature until the mods edited it from me.
  • May_The_WayMay_The_Way Posts: 561 ★★★



This discussion has been closed.