Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • LormifLormif Posts: 3,201 ★★★★
    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    I think you lost me with that last sentence.

    Champs that damage like Cull (and I won’t name them because the last thing I want to do is put them in the crosshairs, although I’m confident you know which champs I mean) aren’t champs in the actual game played by actual players?

    Dr. Zola

    That should be parsed as saying "every other champion that you think can generate the same or more damage as Cull isn't actually generating the same or more damage as Cull when you look at the activity of all players playing those champions in the game."

    What specifically they are measuring when they refer to "outdamaging" is a separate question. There are a number of possibilities. Simply adding up all the damage a champion does in the game wouldn't be reasonable for a number of reasons. It is more likely an adjusted damage output relative to certain constraints.

    Is it possible the datamining is looking at the wrong thing? That's possible. The problem is virtually every game developer I'm aware of considers data mining to be highly proprietary: they don't share the data or precise methodology with anyone, sometimes not even with their own designers. That makes it difficult to contradict the data, or convince the devs they should ignore it. In all my time working with game developers I've only managed that trick once, and it required an arsenal of information I don't think even exists at the moment for MCOC.
    I don’t doubt that. It’s impossible to know precisely what data points matter to the team, but there are probably some that matter far more than others.

    I firmly believe all of this could have been avoided...with testing. Substantive, meaningful testing by people who actually play the game at a high level. I suspect the Cull issue is how he operates in the hands of a very good player...much like She-Hulk.

    Someone said it above, but it’s absurd to pay to be in a beta test. But I’m convinced that’s essentially what anyone who purchases crystals does every time they play this game in its current incarnation.

    Dr. Zola
    I take it you are knew to MMOs There is no amount of substantive testing that can be done that will get you all the data needed to make these determinations in every case.
  • Luciel83Luciel83 Posts: 13
    MCOC Team said:

    Summoners,

    The next two Champions to get the rebalance treatment will be Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw. These balance updates will be limited to the tuning and balancing of a Champion's existing kit, abilities won’t be added or removed.

    Ronin:

    We’ve taken a look at Ronin’s performance and are happy with his both his performance and his abilities. We will not be making any balance changes to Ronin at this time.

    Cull Obsidian:

    After looking at our data across all the game modes we have determined that Cull Obsidian is out damaging every other high-damage Champion in the game. While he does have his limiting factors, once he's fully ramped up he is able to end fights before even high-level Opponents can do any meaningful damage to him.

    The goal of Cull’s rebalance is to make tuning changes that keeps Cull Obsidian as one of the top damage dealers in-game.

    Ebony Maw:

    You said it and we saw it in the data. Although Ebony Maw is a decent Defender, he is underperforming as an Attacker (the designer said something about his Degeneration DPS being just sad and wrong).

    We are looking to boost both his defensive and offensive potential, but with an emphasis on offense.

    Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw’s balance changes should be live in approximately 3 months.

    So thx u again for making players waste their money and again u guys nerfing champs like always, why u don’t test ur champs before releasing them, is really bad that u guys after so many screw ups, kabam never check their stats or test it, u guys laughed At some players that dropped a los money and don’t even care what screw up company that doesn’t care for customers and always trying to take advantage about it, if I was the other case kabam call it, “exploit “ what a bs, thx u again for nothing...!!!
  • Japam12345Japam12345 Posts: 431 ★★
    Dizzy said:

    Dizzy said:

    This means champions like Black Widow, Warlock, etc. would be eligible for adjustments, but it's not supposed to affect champions entering the basic before October (e.g., Cull, Ronin, Ebony Maw, Namor, Invisible Woman), who were also conveniently the champions released BEFORE your announcement, when people already went hard to pull them.

    Yeah but doesn't the mention of tweaking of Human Torch and Annihilus given you an indication of those champs that come after him being looked at to be tweaked?

    C'mon dude.
    Me c'mon?

    Why don't you read my full post and c'mon yourself? I'm not commenting at all on the Cull adjustment. I have a Cull, I certainly have reason to complain (used a Cosmic gem on him and took him to R4), but I'm going to hold my tongue because I think there's a bigger issue.

    Kabam specifically said "While these 2 have already been added to the Basic Pool of Champions, going forward, we will be letting you know before about these updates before a new Champion is added to the Basic Pool so you can make informed decisions."

    I don't need to c'mon. I'm just calling out some BS and, frankly, some deception when I see it.
    Did you miss the Memo? They did admit that they've missed this round's announcement in a thread a couple of days back (Ronin/Maw thread I think), hence this announcement today.

    They did drop the ball on the announcement but they did let you know that it was coming.
  • THALEMKYKO1THALEMKYKO1 Posts: 58
    IDoge said:

    Cull only has one ability and that's to put out damage he cant take a hit his cadence is slower than all champs Mike if you all he has is damage output without that hes just another Cyclops

    Cull does not have one ability. He has utilities like true accuracy, projectile parry, and armor break which can even be used to stop healing with despair. To those who think he's a one trick pony I suggest looking deeper into the champ. What does corvus have over cull? Guaranteed crits and 2 immunities? Sure you could say the immunities make him better but other than that they are very similar champs just corvus has less damage and hits softer when not ramped up with cruelties.
    Guaranteed crits pretty much is the big thing here also 3 Immunities with his synergy 100% uptime on true strike unlike cull only having it for like 10 seconds armor break without requiring them to not be stun immune his dupe makes him the best aq champ in the game by far should I go on?
  • borntohulaborntohula Posts: 361 ★★★

    I swear you guys didn't read the actual post.

    CULL IS STILL GOING TO REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

    That doesn’t matter. We bought something. We want what we bought. Not some diluted version. If he does, say, 20% less damage, he is basically a sub par champion, given his other shortcomings. He was balanced in that his damage could go up really high, but there are large setbacks to offset that damage. Once you start tinkering with his damage, those setbacks become really prominent. Besides, it’s not so much about the specific nerf anymore, it’s about the pattern. Whoever you deem worthy to rank, based on the information that you have access to at that time, which is provided in game, can be ‘nullified’ tomorrow. Buy that Ferrari today, you’ll end up driving a Trabant tomorrow. Still gonna look good though. We’ll throw in some complementary sunglasses.
  • NinjAlanNinjAlan Posts: 324 ★★★
    JohnHS said:

    Another thing. This isn't anything like 12.0. Base game mechanics like Willpower and Perfect Block were changed. The majority of champs, old and new, were changed. This is messing with new champs. Bad system? Yes. 12.0.2? No.

    Neither of these were changed with 12.0
  • THALEMKYKO1THALEMKYKO1 Posts: 58
    IDoge said:

    I swear you guys didn't read the actual post.

    CULL IS STILL GOING TO REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

    Spam it if you have do (please don't) to get the message clear to the protestors.
    If cull isn’t the top damage dealer in the game when ramped up then he hasn’t got much use that’s all he used for damage and even then considering the effort required
  • Japam12345Japam12345 Posts: 431 ★★
    Ace_03 said:

    I swear you guys didn't read the actual post.

    CULL IS STILL GOING TO REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

    According to who? The people who are doing the rebalancing?

    That's like the IRS claiming you owe them money when you don't, once you pay then they themselves will determine if you owed them or not. So the people who claim you owe them, are the ones who will determine if you do owe them or not.

    Because, they wouldn't be biased at all right?

    Come on.

    Well why not just wait and see then before jumping the gun and getting your panties in a twist?
  • LormifLormif Posts: 3,201 ★★★★
    DrZola said:

    Lormif said:

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    I think you lost me with that last sentence.

    Champs that damage like Cull (and I won’t name them because the last thing I want to do is put them in the crosshairs, although I’m confident you know which champs I mean) aren’t champs in the actual game played by actual players?

    Dr. Zola

    That should be parsed as saying "every other champion that you think can generate the same or more damage as Cull isn't actually generating the same or more damage as Cull when you look at the activity of all players playing those champions in the game."

    What specifically they are measuring when they refer to "outdamaging" is a separate question. There are a number of possibilities. Simply adding up all the damage a champion does in the game wouldn't be reasonable for a number of reasons. It is more likely an adjusted damage output relative to certain constraints.

    Is it possible the datamining is looking at the wrong thing? That's possible. The problem is virtually every game developer I'm aware of considers data mining to be highly proprietary: they don't share the data or precise methodology with anyone, sometimes not even with their own designers. That makes it difficult to contradict the data, or convince the devs they should ignore it. In all my time working with game developers I've only managed that trick once, and it required an arsenal of information I don't think even exists at the moment for MCOC.
    I don’t doubt that. It’s impossible to know precisely what data points matter to the team, but there are probably some that matter far more than others.

    I firmly believe all of this could have been avoided...with testing. Substantive, meaningful testing by people who actually play the game at a high level. I suspect the Cull issue is how he operates in the hands of a very good player...much like She-Hulk.

    Someone said it above, but it’s absurd to pay to be in a beta test. But I’m convinced that’s essentially what anyone who purchases crystals does every time they play this game in its current incarnation.

    Dr. Zola
    I take it you are knew to MMOs There is no amount of substantive testing that can be done that will get you all the data needed to make these determinations in every case.
    Nope. Not new. But thanks for asking.

    Dr. Zola
    If you are not new then you should not have made such a faulty claim.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 1,882 ★★★★

    DalBot said:

    Never ceases to amaze me the people who scream "CULL CAN'T DO 6.2 BECAUSE MERR"

    Y'all just silly

    Did you seriously post him running a path with a regen synergy as evidence he's an effective option? Take him down a gated path or any path without that or the thor regen synergy
    And it’s in a pretty easy path that doesn’t really need any utility
    Right. I've never been one to say that there's no paths in 6.2 that Cull can do bc that's an obvious falsehood. However his effectiveness compared to many other champs is pretty low considering the cost to keep him alive throughout the path (without one of those synergies of course). Also he's limited to fairly straightforward and relatively easy paths as well.
  • MarzGrooveMarzGroove Posts: 887 ★★★
    Every game I've ever played has gone through periodic rebalancing. They do it because they care.
  • His only utility is damage. He has no immunities or counters, he's terrible against stun immunes cause he's so fragile, only armour breaks and leaves no other debuffs, no power drain or heal block, and has short period of true strike as long as his thanos favours are active and even that doesn't work against "can't touch this" in Aq. Dmg is the only thing he's got.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 3,201 ★★★★

    DalBot said:

    Never ceases to amaze me the people who scream "CULL CAN'T DO 6.2 BECAUSE MERR"

    Y'all just silly

    Did you seriously post him running a path with a regen synergy as evidence he's an effective option? Take him down a gated path or any path without that or the thor regen synergy
    And it’s in a pretty easy path that doesn’t really need any utility
    Right. I've never been one to say that there's no paths in 6.2 that Cull can do bc that's an obvious falsehood. However his effectiveness compared to many other champs is pretty low considering the cost to keep him alive throughout the path (without one of those synergies of course). Also he's limited to fairly straightforward and relatively easy paths as well.
    easy paths like decimating lol?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 20,046 ★★★★★

    His only utility is damage. He has no immunities or counters, he's terrible against stun immunes cause he's so fragile, only armour breaks and leaves no other debuffs, no power drain or heal block, and has short period of true strike as long as his thanos favours are active and even that doesn't work against "can't touch this" in Aq. Dmg is the only thing he's got.

    It's a suggestion to look at when the time comes. There's an assumption that all they're going to do is cut the Damage. It is a rebalance, after all. Which is why I'm waiting to see what the changes are.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 1,882 ★★★★

    His only utility is damage. He has no immunities or counters, he's terrible against stun immunes cause he's so fragile, only armour breaks and leaves no other debuffs, no power drain or heal block, and has short period of true strike as long as his thanos favours are active and even that doesn't work against "can't touch this" in Aq. Dmg is the only thing he's got.

    Also not necessarily true. Being able to avoid evades and autoblocks is definitely useful utility. Also with the number of armor breaks he can stack if you combine that with the despair mastery he can perma heal block anyone that can be armor broken with a few charges as well.
  • Kaladin_Kaladin_ Posts: 344
    I'm not a fan of this adjusting champions after a certain amount of time. All of the adjusting should be done before Champions are released. It feels like you're saying certain Champions are doing too well against the content and you want to bring them back to the pack so we spend more money on potions and revives. That's not cool. I think all the nerfing will be the beginning of the end for this game.
  • dot_dittodot_ditto Posts: 503 ★★★
    edited September 11

    His only utility is damage. He has no immunities or counters, he's terrible against stun immunes cause he's so fragile, only armour breaks and leaves no other debuffs, no power drain or heal block, and has short period of true strike as long as his thanos favours are active and even that doesn't work against "can't touch this" in Aq. Dmg is the only thing he's got.

    Have to admit, as much as I'm apprehensive about these changes ... I'm trying to hold off judgement of it (until I see some data ;) ). I just got Cull last week, 5*, took him to R3. I took him up mostly for his utility, vs Autoblock and evade .. and especially the projectile counter ... *shrug*

    so yeah ... sorry, can't agree with you on this one .. ;)
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 1,882 ★★★★

    His only utility is damage. He has no immunities or counters, he's terrible against stun immunes cause he's so fragile, only armour breaks and leaves no other debuffs, no power drain or heal block, and has short period of true strike as long as his thanos favours are active and even that doesn't work against "can't touch this" in Aq. Dmg is the only thing he's got.

    Here's a thread I made specifically showing his heal block ability in map 7


    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/140718/5-65-cull-obsidian-vs-map-7-omega-day-4#latest
  • LormifLormif Posts: 3,201 ★★★★

    I propose a challenge to Kabam’s “data”:

    We pick a certain number of random paths in Act 6. We have 10-15 minutes to get as far as we can along each path.

    Kabam, you can use 5/65 Cull.

    I will only use 4/55 champions of my choosing. I’ll go even one further. I’ll beat you with at least 10 different champs.

    Put your DATA where you’re mouth is.

    Act 6, I am sure, is not the only data they are using. You cannot stack the data in your favor like that.
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