The next two Champions to get the rebalance treatment will be Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw. These balance updates will be limited to the tuning and balancing of a Champion's existing kit, abilities won’t be added or removed.
Ronin:
We’ve taken a look at Ronin’s performance and are happy with his both his performance and his abilities. We will not be making any balance changes to Ronin at this time.
Cull Obsidian:
After looking at our data across all the game modes we have determined that Cull Obsidian is out damaging every other high-damage Champion in the game. While he does have his limiting factors, once he's fully ramped up he is able to end fights before even high-level Opponents can do any meaningful damage to him.
The goal of Cull’s rebalance is to make tuning changes that keeps Cull Obsidian as one of the top damage dealers in-game.
Ebony Maw:
You said it and we saw it in the data. Although Ebony Maw is a decent Defender, he is underperforming as an Attacker (the designer said something about his Degeneration DPS being just sad and wrong).
We are looking to boost both his defensive and offensive potential, but with an emphasis on offense.
Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw’s balance changes should be live in approximately 3 months.
Woww recently just got cull about 4 weeks ago as a 5*, and I'm so glad i decided to go solo again... anytime kabam does this they should issue rank down tickets this is ridiculous... but hey whatever I'm on that Gears 5 train now...I do wonder if the game will make it to 2025 like they Say Lmao!
I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.
Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
They shouldnt have re-issue that cull obsidian fgmc few weeks back then (which i bought an odins worth in units) seems fraudulent to me.
Offers are on a schedule, and unless there's some kind of specialty promotion, they go out as planned. For that matter, they offer Champs no matter what fixes or changes come. That doesn't mean they're doing anything to deceive people.
Cull is never used by myself at 5/65. I have 14 other champs that have more utility and better than cull. If you take away his damage and do not increase another ability to offset u are nerfing him.
And I was planning on a Legends run of 6.3 LOL on me.
You should still have time, 6.3 should be out well before the change.
Since your trying to be positive and share that "positive energy" Tell me something.
You expect me to purchase approx 3 Odins, sit playing the game for 10-15 hours straight. Repeat that in December, for the "Never seen before 6* champ (awakened)" Take the champ to R2, most likely R3 by then. To find the champ nerfed in Feb or March.
Totaling my loss : 6 Odin's, 15 hours of straight gaming x 2 7 Tier 5 Basics (not even counting other catalysts)
Thanks for that advice bro. I'm on it.
Never claimed that. You stated you were going to try a legends run on 6.3, which should be out in the next 2 months, probably next month. My comment directly and only related to that. What you do in 4 months is up to you.
I know there will be a lot of questions about Rank Down Tickets and Compensation for changes, and there already are some. As a reminder, we did say that we will approach these on a case by case basis, and will not be able to make any comments on this yet, because we don't know what Cull's balance pass will look like at all yet.
Also, remember that these changes are restricted to Tuning updates, and are will not change any abilities or utility. Our intention is that if you love your Champion now, you should still love them after.
This doesn't matter at all. RDT's should be automatic. People ranked Cull based on who he was and what he did. So if you change that after the fact - thats the same as a bait and switch on customers.
Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?
When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
Kinda like attempting the Champion 6.2 boss without SS or CAPIW? All other champions are surely punished.
Kabam, u would urge you guys to hire beta testers before releasing new champs. Not the unpaid labour that run beta tests from the summoner pool but actual paid testers who know this game very well. As well as someone like say kt1. Do deep, extensive tests so your final product does not need to be ammended after release. This way you can gradually regain the trust of your player base.
at this point in the game, when they are in the basic, we should be able to safely decide that we are / are not going to invest resources in specific champions.
It seems silly, but I'm starting to think that Kabam needs to provide a warning every time a player buys an offer, exchanges for a crystal, awakens or ranks a champion, or spends any money or currency on anything, that the game is subject to change at any time for balance, implementation, or any other reason, and the player should not take any action predicated on the assumption that the game won't change, because it will.
Because there is no safe time to invest in resources. You are required to agree there is no safe time to invest resources. If you do not agree, and believe the players deserve to have a guarantee of safe periods to invest resources, you're legally not allowed to play the game.
If this is something you feel you need, that's fine. Everyone needs different things from their entertainment. You shouldn't feel compelled to change your mind. But the EULA for the game you play requires you to agree. The EULA cannot force you to agree. But it prohibits you from playing the game if you don't agree.
Or here’s a novel idea: test your stuff before you sell it. Play your own game. And if even moderately testing content is too onerous, then provide a liberal return/refund policy and stop treating the community with condescension.
Dr. Zola
You say "or" as if this contradicts what I said. It does not. I'm not saying there isn't lots of room for improvement, but the absolute best game development team with the absolute best respec policy a game can sustain is still not going to provide the poster I was replying to with "safety." There will still be the possibility of future game balance changes that won't be compensated for, because there's no way to prevent completely future balancing changes, and there's no way to completely allow do-overs for every little change in a sustainable way. I don't think most players even understand what the real danger of RDTs even is in this game, even when used sparingly, much less making it the go-to answer for all future game changes.
You can do everything you're mentioning, and still not be safe. Safe from game changes is impossible. And I'm willing to be proven wrong, if someone can find a game that adheres to your two principles of test so mistakes never happen and games never need balancing, and/or compensate for every change to the extent players demand in all cases.
At the end of the day, if you think safety is possible, I doubt I could convince you otherwise. However, absent a very persuasive argument, at the end of the day I believe we doom any attempt to improve matters when we make the ultimate goal an impossible task.
I don’t think “100% safe” is possible, nor should it be.
But this far enough from safe to border on destabilizing.
Dr. Zola
Then we agree that safe is impossible, and Kabam should strive to be significantly better at problem prevention then they currently are. As I said, this isn't an "or" situation. This is an "and" situation.
Seriously Kabam ?! you guys got be kididng me .... I waited too long to rank up my6* Cull obsidian to R2 . I collected all the the 15k shards 6* to get 15k 6* cristal , and now are you guys Tallin about rebalance?! What about my gold spent ?! What about all the packs that I purchased to get 15k shards goal?! Kabam , you guys deserve a new boycott as we did years ago ,when you nerfed The black widow, scarlet witch and Thor ....
I no longer have any confidence to spend on crystals or rank up materials due to fear of nerfs. Compensation reimbursement must include rdt, awakening gem, sig stones and units spent on all crystals.
I think this is a bad precedent. You get a new champ spend money , time and resources to rank . 3 months later you are told you are not getting what you paid for. It reduces the incentive to get them. It s probably best to wait 3 months before deciding on rank up a new champ. Better don’t spend until you know what you are getting. This probably the best advice for every player.
I hope this is a joke. You’re ‘balancing’ Cull. Wow. All he has is damage. He eats potions for fun, his ramp up is painful and he isn’t an option (definitely not a best option) for most of the latest content. I don’t know what to say. The investment in him for me has been massive, and it turned out he’s not even the best cosmic. Probably not top 3. This is an awful decision.
Cull isn't even top ten in the game... Ronin is fun, but garbage. You honestly have to be joking with these. Like what are you even doing
You have no idea what you're talking about. Cull obsidian is definitely a top 10 champ in the game and Ronin is not garbage. Ronin was a champ meant to cater towards skilled people. He is not supposed to be the next Blade. He's supposed to be a great damage dealer with little extra bits utility
How is he in top 10 buddy?For more than 95% content there are at least 4 better cosmic character than him. I have Medusa,Hyperion,Corvus,Cull as r1 6* or 4/55 and all the other 3 is more viable.And from what I have seen new Cap Marvel is better than him.
Is this a impulse nerf? Have you thought about the consequences? You will be losing money in the long run! Handcuffing the Whales. People will be less motivated to spend money. Great idea Kaaloss profit! Whoever came up with this great idea should be walked out the door! Thought you wanted to make make not lose it! LOL
I know a lot of people think this, and there's no way to convince them otherwise, but these kinds of balancing adjustments, from 12.0 to the present day, are critical to the long term survival of a game like this. All I can say is everyone who bet on the people who said 12.0 would be the death of the game have been definitively proven wrong, as has everyone else who has claimed that a particular game change would sink the game. By the time we can prove this claim is also just as wrong, everyone will have moved on to the next game-killing thing.
This is completely separate from the fact that the kinds of processes Kabam is implementing now, with regard to things like post-release balancing passes, wasn't invented by Kabam. They've been around in the game development industry for long enough it is entirely possible the guy who came up with this great idea has already died of old age. Kabam isn't coming up with new ways to screw with the players, Kabam is in fact decades late to the party.
In fact, it was *the players* who were demanding that Kabam do this kind of thing, way back when Sentry was released (if not earlier). The idea was that Kabam wouldn't revisit a champ until enough data had been collected for the long term performance of a new champ, and it was the players that said that was too long: new champs should be revisited relatively soon after release and tweaked if the data said it should be. The problem is tweaking works both ways: if the data says a buff is warranted then that will happen, but if a nerf is warranted then that will happen instead. Players cannot demand that the developers only buff. That request simply isn't taken seriously by any dev.
I think you're re-writing history on 12.0. When the update first came out it was awful and would ruin the game. You forget that Kabam adjusted the game a second time and fixed the issues and gave us a massive compensation for it. Don't leave that out of your message when comparing this to 12.0.
I was extremely involved with the 12.0 changes and all the surrounding "protests" at the time. The people calling 12.0 "the death" of the game were demanding a complete reversal of 12.0's changes, and if not that then at least a complete removal of Diminishing Returns, Challenge Rating, the large nerfs to Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, and Thor in particular, and the penetration and critical resistance attributes removed. They got exactly none of that. Many of the things adjusted in 12.01 and 12.1 were not even the things the most rabid players were complaining about, because most of the rabid players weren't even paying close attention to the changes or were only learning about them second hand.
The kinds of things they adjusted were things much more level headed players were talking about, like Parry stacking or CR overlap, or things like the block proficiency of intrinsically high block champions like Captain America. Dr. Strange, for example, had his heal increased in 12.0.1 but only because it was cut far too deep. It wasn't returned to its original value or even remotely close. It was, in fact, increased to almost exactly the value I calculated the absolute minimum floor the heal should be to not be considered broken in the Dr. Strange thread.
This doesn't even include all the things the rabid complainers calling 12.0 the death of the game were demanding that were straight up impossible to address. For example, they were complaining that challenge rating decreased parry effectiveness and demanded that behavior should be removed even though that wasn't happening at all.
This isn't stuff I'm just remembering now. This is stuff I pointed out at the time, after 12.0.1 came out, after 12.1 came out, when 14.0 released and people were comparing the AW changes to 12.0, and every so often up to now. The people who were there at the time and actively involved knows there was no unity among the players: there were at least three separate "groups" of "boycotters" (the top alliiance group, the Reddit splinter group(s), and the more amorphous mob in general) all with different demands. And there were lots of fringe complainers with varying degrees of fringiness. The "death of the game" people were one specific fringe group, and many were chanting that mantra even after compensation was released.
In fact, there were fringy people complaining that *the compensation itself* would be the death of the game, because of its structure. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten how the compensation package worked, and how many people flipped out over how it worked.
So i used a generic 5* awakening gem on cull just days ago only to find out that they are nerfing his damage. So I wouldn’t have done that had i known until i saw the new update on him. Is there any chance they will return it to me?
Is this a impulse nerf? Have you thought about the consequences? You will be losing money in the long run! Handcuffing the Whales. People will be less motivated to spend money. Great idea Kaaloss profit! Whoever came up with this great idea should be walked out the door! Thought you wanted to make make not lose it! LOL
I know a lot of people think this, and there's no way to convince them otherwise, but these kinds of balancing adjustments, from 12.0 to the present day, are critical to the long term survival of a game like this. All I can say is everyone who bet on the people who said 12.0 would be the death of the game have been definitively proven wrong, as has everyone else who has claimed that a particular game change would sink the game. By the time we can prove this claim is also just as wrong, everyone will have moved on to the next game-killing thing.
This is completely separate from the fact that the kinds of processes Kabam is implementing now, with regard to things like post-release balancing passes, wasn't invented by Kabam. They've been around in the game development industry for long enough it is entirely possible the guy who came up with this great idea has already died of old age. Kabam isn't coming up with new ways to screw with the players, Kabam is in fact decades late to the party.
In fact, it was *the players* who were demanding that Kabam do this kind of thing, way back when Sentry was released (if not earlier). The idea was that Kabam wouldn't revisit a champ until enough data had been collected for the long term performance of a new champ, and it was the players that said that was too long: new champs should be revisited relatively soon after release and tweaked if the data said it should be. The problem is tweaking works both ways: if the data says a buff is warranted then that will happen, but if a nerf is warranted then that will happen instead. Players cannot demand that the developers only buff. That request simply isn't taken seriously by any dev.
I think you're re-writing history on 12.0. When the update first came out it was awful and would ruin the game. You forget that Kabam adjusted the game a second time and fixed the issues and gave us a massive compensation for it. Don't leave that out of your message when comparing this to 12.0.
I was extremely involved with the 12.0 changes and all the surrounding "protests" at the time. The people calling 12.0 "the death" of the game were demanding a complete reversal of 12.0's changes, and if not that then at least a complete removal of Diminishing Returns, Challenge Rating, the large nerfs to Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, and Thor in particular, and the penetration and critical resistance attributes removed. They got exactly none of that. Many of the things adjusted in 12.01 and 12.1 were not even the things the most rabid players were complaining about, because most of the rabid players weren't even paying close attention to the changes or were only learning about them second hand.
The kinds of things they adjusted were things much more level headed players were talking about, like Parry stacking or CR overlap, or things like the block proficiency of intrinsically high block champions like Captain America. Dr. Strange, for example, had his heal increased in 12.0.1 but only because it was cut far too deep. It wasn't returned to its original value or even remotely close. It was, in fact, increased to almost exactly the value I calculated the absolute minimum floor the heal should be to not be considered broken in the Dr. Strange thread.
This doesn't even include all the things the rabid complainers calling 12.0 the death of the game were demanding that were straight up impossible to address. For example, they were complaining that challenge rating decreased parry effectiveness and demanded that behavior should be removed even though that wasn't happening at all.
This isn't stuff I'm just remembering now. This is stuff I pointed out at the time, after 12.0.1 came out, after 12.1 came out, when 14.0 released and people were comparing the AW changes to 12.0, and every so often up to now. The people who were there at the time and actively involved knows there was no unity among the players: there were at least three separate "groups" of "boycotters" (the top alliiance group, the Reddit splinter group(s), and the more amorphous mob in general) all with different demands. And there were lots of fringe complainers with varying degrees of fringiness. The "death of the game" people were one specific fringe group, and many were chanting that mantra even after compensation was released.
In fact, there were fringy people complaining that *the compensation itself* would be the death of the game, because of its structure. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten how the compensation package worked, and how many people flipped out over how it worked.
12.0 to 12.1 was a drastic difference. Your more detailed explanation doesn't change that. I'm speaking for reasonable people here and not people saying death to the game. No one now is saying Cull Obsidian is the death of the game, the issue is that we can see where Kabam is going with this which is the point you all are missing defending this move.
Let them re-work (what I really mean is nerf) a champion that is actually top 10 or people use regularly like Namor and see how its goes. This change with Cull will definitely hit their pockets so it doesn't matter how much I complain or you re butte the argument. You cannot continue to change champions by making them weaker specifically and expect people to buy crystals and spend at the same rate after working so hard to get them. That's just the facts, I'll be here in 3 months to watch it play out and Kabam go back on their words. In fact, I would say they would be much better off leaving the champions that are terrible the same and occasionally just re-working 2016 and past champions.
I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.
Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
They shouldnt have re-issue that cull obsidian fgmc few weeks back then (which i bought an odins worth in units) seems fraudulent to me.
Offers are on a schedule, and unless there's some kind of specialty promotion, they go out as planned. For that matter, they offer Champs no matter what fixes or changes come. That doesn't mean they're doing anything to deceive people.
Seems more like a lack of communication between sales and the dev team (or whoever makes the call on champ adjustments) then...
@Cmdrake428_ You can try sending in a support ticket. Maybe they'll take it off of him and return it to you. I would advise doing this ASAP as each passing day makes it less likely to occur. Also, there's a chance the changes won't be so extreme that he's made useless. I doubt they'd reduce his damage so much he'd be undesirable. A rebalancing change isn't exactly a nerf. Some would argue otherwise, but I'm not here to argue semantics.
There's a thread on She-Hulk asking who else didn't rank her down, and so far, the general consensus is (at least pertaining to those that answered) she's still useful and they didn't rank her down. I'm not saying don't ask for the gem back. Do try it, especially considering the timing. Then perhaps once the changes are live you can make a more informed decision as to whether you want to use it again. Provided they undo this. Best of luck.
@DNA3000 I believe my post got delted so I have to rewrite it and not quote you.
12.0 to 12.1 was drastically different. I remember when 12.0 hit you would lose a significant amount of damage just by parrying. Reasonable people knew that those minor details here and there that had to be updated made all the difference. If 12.0 stayed as presently constructed I would not be playing and that for sure whether you try to minimize it or not.
Also, what you don't understand is that this argument has nothing to do with Cull Obsidian it is about precedence moving forward. This is nothing from the community but a warning. Touch Namor or a champion that's actually relevant or top 10 and watch what happens. We have whales on record already saying they're going to scale back on spending. I would advise to Kabam to test more and leave current champs as is.
But you knew some of the recent champs were going to be re-evaluated right? Kabam announced this last month.
You do realize Cull was released in May 2019, they said 3 months after a champion’s release and BEFORE they enter the basic pool. Guess what? It’s been 4 months and Cull is in the crystal pool.
Kabam please stop downgrading champs Make the champ put it in the game if u don’t like how good you have made the champ Make a counter, every enemy has a foe and every champ has an enemy Downgrading champs after people invest is false advertising surprised people don’t take kabam to court. Upgrading cool downgrading false advertising because people spend money to get what you made . Downgrades is not what the person is paying for . A lot of people I know are quitting the game because of this . Simply not a good business move on your end , not a good one at all Get it togather
@DNA3000 I believe my post got delted so I have to rewrite it and not quote you.
12.0 to 12.1 was drastically different. I remember when 12.0 hit you would lose a significant amount of damage just by parrying. Reasonable people knew that those minor details here and there that had to be updated made all the difference. If 12.0 stayed as presently constructed I would not be playing and that for sure whether you try to minimize it or not.
Also, what you don't understand is that this argument has nothing to do with Cull Obsidian it is about precedence moving forward. This is nothing from the community but a warning. Touch Namor or a champion that's actually relevant or top 10 and watch what happens. We have whales on record already saying they're going to scale back on spending. I would advise to Kabam to test more and leave current champs as is.
It is probably for the best you don't quote me, because this doesn't directly address anything I said. I was replying to someone claiming that these changes were bad for business and would cost Kabam money. My reply focuses on that, and nothing else. It said that this charge has been made many times, and in every case it turned out to be wrong. Your statement was that 12.0 was not a good example, because Kabam did in fact make significant changes. My reply, which focuses again only on what you said in the post I replied to, was that this was an oversimplification. Many people complained about many things in 12.0, but the people who *specifically* were claiming it would be the death of the game were complaining about a lot of things that 12.0.1 and 12.1 didn't change.
Yes, 12.1 was different than 12.0. That's true. But I'm not saying it wasn't different. I'm saying 12.1 didn't "fix" the things that the "death of the game" people were complaining about. That makes them wrong, either because they were incorrect the changes would kill the game, or they were wrong about which things were important to complain about in the first place.
When you say I don't understand "this argument" there's no argument I'm replying to here. I'm replying to an assertion: that someone thinks nerfs are bad for business and thinks anecdotes about spending reductions are significant. But these things happen every day, and have happened after every major change to the game. After 12.0, it became fashionable for players to exclaim, whenever a change happened they didn't like, that we should "start a boycott." I kept saying then that this was a mistake: calling for a boycott every time a change took place wasn't just worthless, it was less than worthless because it quickly became an empty threat. Eventually it wasn't just me pointing that out: try calling for a "boycott" on the forums now: you'll get a lot of people sighing.
The same thing is true about people claiming to know what changes will cost Kabam money. Kabam execs can actually look at their retention and revenue data, we can't. Every time someone makes this assertion and the numbers prove them wrong, it simply makes that particular threat increasingly silly.
People quit all the time, people stop spending all the time. A "warning" from the community regarding spending has no teeth. If it actually happens and it is noticeable Kabam will notice it whether the community "warns" them or not. Conversely, if the community warns them and it doesn't happen, that warning just reminds Kabam how little the forums actually represent the majority of players, and weakens our ability to have our voices heard.
Ultimately, game companies don't care what players say, they care what players do. If what we say mirrors what players do, our voices have credibility. If it doesn't we don't. I'm sure someone will come along and say that Kabam doesn't have credibility either. But that's irrelevant. We need credibility for Kabam to listen to us. Kabam doesn't need credibility to change the game any way they want. If they don't listen to us and we don't listen to them in return, the only people who lose is us, not them. The game doesn't depend on the couple thousand of us. It mostly depends on the hundreds of thousands or millions of players that don't post on forums or Reddit, and for that matter mostly don't care about anything we're discussing. Most players, even most spenders, are only superficially involved in these issues, if at all. Kabam needs them. It doesn't need us. If we're going to make a difference, we can't keep making empty threats and throwing tantrums and thinking we lead an army of players behind us. There's no one behind us. Its just us.
@DNA3000 I believe my post got delted so I have to rewrite it and not quote you.
12.0 to 12.1 was drastically different. I remember when 12.0 hit you would lose a significant amount of damage just by parrying. Reasonable people knew that those minor details here and there that had to be updated made all the difference. If 12.0 stayed as presently constructed I would not be playing and that for sure whether you try to minimize it or not.
Also, what you don't understand is that this argument has nothing to do with Cull Obsidian it is about precedence moving forward. This is nothing from the community but a warning. Touch Namor or a champion that's actually relevant or top 10 and watch what happens. We have whales on record already saying they're going to scale back on spending. I would advise to Kabam to test more and leave current champs as is.
It is probably for the best you don't quote me, because this doesn't directly address anything I said. I was replying to someone claiming that these changes were bad for business and would cost Kabam money. My reply focuses on that, and nothing else. It said that this charge has been made many times, and in every case it turned out to be wrong. Your statement was that 12.0 was not a good example, because Kabam did in fact make significant changes. My reply, which focuses again only on what you said in the post I replied to, was that this was an oversimplification. Many people complained about many things in 12.0, but the people who *specifically* were claiming it would be the death of the game were complaining about a lot of things that 12.0.1 and 12.1 didn't change.
Yes, 12.1 was different than 12.0. That's true. But I'm not saying it wasn't different. I'm saying 12.1 didn't "fix" the things that the "death of the game" people were complaining about. That makes them wrong, either because they were incorrect the changes would kill the game, or they were wrong about which things were important to complain about in the first place.
When you say I don't understand "this argument" there's no argument I'm replying to here. I'm replying to an assertion: that someone thinks nerfs are bad for business and thinks anecdotes about spending reductions are significant. But these things happen every day, and have happened after every major change to the game. After 12.0, it became fashionable for players to exclaim, whenever a change happened they didn't like, that we should "start a boycott." I kept saying then that this was a mistake: calling for a boycott every time a change took place wasn't just worthless, it was less than worthless because it quickly became an empty threat. Eventually it wasn't just me pointing that out: try calling for a "boycott" on the forums now: you'll get a lot of people sighing.
The same thing is true about people claiming to know what changes will cost Kabam money. Kabam execs can actually look at their retention and revenue data, we can't. Every time someone makes this assertion and the numbers prove them wrong, it simply makes that particular threat increasingly silly.
People quit all the time, people stop spending all the time. A "warning" from the community regarding spending has no teeth. If it actually happens and it is noticeable Kabam will notice it whether the community "warns" them or not. Conversely, if the community warns them and it doesn't happen, that warning just reminds Kabam how little the forums actually represent the majority of players, and weakens our ability to have our voices heard.
Ultimately, game companies don't care what players say, they care what players do. If what we say mirrors what players do, our voices have credibility. If it doesn't we don't. I'm sure someone will come along and say that Kabam doesn't have credibility either. But that's irrelevant. We need credibility for Kabam to listen to us. Kabam doesn't need credibility to change the game any way they want. If they don't listen to us and we don't listen to them in return, the only people who lose is us, not them. The game doesn't depend on the couple thousand of us. It mostly depends on the hundreds of thousands or millions of players that don't post on forums or Reddit, and for that matter mostly don't care about anything we're discussing. Most players, even most spenders, are only superficially involved in these issues, if at all. Kabam needs them. It doesn't need us. If we're going to make a difference, we can't keep making empty threats and throwing tantrums and thinking we lead an army of players behind us. There's no one behind us. Its just us.
Even though Kabam didn't make the specific changes you were referring to about 12.0 they made a different game entirely with 12.1. So even if the examples that they choose to criticize the game about weren't the same as the end result the fact is, the complaining and boycotts caused Kabam to go to a different more reasonable direction. That was my point and I'm happy to clarify.
We agree on companies reacting to what players do. I wasn't a forum visitor when 12.0 hit. I got my information on youtube, I didn't need to make my response online to stop spending. There are plenty of guys that don't post that feel the same way I do now. Kabam can take this lightly if they won't and they likely will but when it impacts their wallets things will change, I'm just trying to get them ahead of the game so they don't have to back pedal and revisit. Which is often what they do.
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R.I.P Transparency
Do deep, extensive tests so your final product does not need to be ammended after release. This way you can gradually regain the trust of your player base.
It reduces the incentive to get them. It s probably best to wait 3 months before deciding on rank up a new champ.
Better don’t spend until you know what you are getting. This probably the best advice for every player.
The kinds of things they adjusted were things much more level headed players were talking about, like Parry stacking or CR overlap, or things like the block proficiency of intrinsically high block champions like Captain America. Dr. Strange, for example, had his heal increased in 12.0.1 but only because it was cut far too deep. It wasn't returned to its original value or even remotely close. It was, in fact, increased to almost exactly the value I calculated the absolute minimum floor the heal should be to not be considered broken in the Dr. Strange thread.
This doesn't even include all the things the rabid complainers calling 12.0 the death of the game were demanding that were straight up impossible to address. For example, they were complaining that challenge rating decreased parry effectiveness and demanded that behavior should be removed even though that wasn't happening at all.
This isn't stuff I'm just remembering now. This is stuff I pointed out at the time, after 12.0.1 came out, after 12.1 came out, when 14.0 released and people were comparing the AW changes to 12.0, and every so often up to now. The people who were there at the time and actively involved knows there was no unity among the players: there were at least three separate "groups" of "boycotters" (the top alliiance group, the Reddit splinter group(s), and the more amorphous mob in general) all with different demands. And there were lots of fringe complainers with varying degrees of fringiness. The "death of the game" people were one specific fringe group, and many were chanting that mantra even after compensation was released.
In fact, there were fringy people complaining that *the compensation itself* would be the death of the game, because of its structure. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten how the compensation package worked, and how many people flipped out over how it worked.
Let them re-work (what I really mean is nerf) a champion that is actually top 10 or people use regularly like Namor and see how its goes. This change with Cull will definitely hit their pockets so it doesn't matter how much I complain or you re butte the argument. You cannot continue to change champions by making them weaker specifically and expect people to buy crystals and spend at the same rate after working so hard to get them. That's just the facts, I'll be here in 3 months to watch it play out and Kabam go back on their words. In fact, I would say they would be much better off leaving the champions that are terrible the same and occasionally just re-working 2016 and past champions.
There's a thread on She-Hulk asking who else didn't rank her down, and so far, the general consensus is (at least pertaining to those that answered) she's still useful and they didn't rank her down. I'm not saying don't ask for the gem back. Do try it, especially considering the timing. Then perhaps once the changes are live you can make a more informed decision as to whether you want to use it again. Provided they undo this. Best of luck.
12.0 to 12.1 was drastically different. I remember when 12.0 hit you would lose a significant amount of damage just by parrying. Reasonable people knew that those minor details here and there that had to be updated made all the difference. If 12.0 stayed as presently constructed I would not be playing and that for sure whether you try to minimize it or not.
Also, what you don't understand is that this argument has nothing to do with Cull Obsidian it is about precedence moving forward. This is nothing from the community but a warning. Touch Namor or a champion that's actually relevant or top 10 and watch what happens. We have whales on record already saying they're going to scale back on spending. I would advise to Kabam to test more and leave current champs as is.
Make the champ put it in the game if u don’t like how good you have made the champ
Make a counter, every enemy has a foe and every champ has an enemy
Downgrading champs after people invest is false advertising surprised people don’t take kabam to court. Upgrading cool downgrading false advertising because people spend money to get what you made . Downgrades is not what the person is paying for .
A lot of people I know are quitting the game because of this .
Simply not a good business move on your end , not a good one at all
Get it togather
Yes, 12.1 was different than 12.0. That's true. But I'm not saying it wasn't different. I'm saying 12.1 didn't "fix" the things that the "death of the game" people were complaining about. That makes them wrong, either because they were incorrect the changes would kill the game, or they were wrong about which things were important to complain about in the first place.
When you say I don't understand "this argument" there's no argument I'm replying to here. I'm replying to an assertion: that someone thinks nerfs are bad for business and thinks anecdotes about spending reductions are significant. But these things happen every day, and have happened after every major change to the game. After 12.0, it became fashionable for players to exclaim, whenever a change happened they didn't like, that we should "start a boycott." I kept saying then that this was a mistake: calling for a boycott every time a change took place wasn't just worthless, it was less than worthless because it quickly became an empty threat. Eventually it wasn't just me pointing that out: try calling for a "boycott" on the forums now: you'll get a lot of people sighing.
The same thing is true about people claiming to know what changes will cost Kabam money. Kabam execs can actually look at their retention and revenue data, we can't. Every time someone makes this assertion and the numbers prove them wrong, it simply makes that particular threat increasingly silly.
People quit all the time, people stop spending all the time. A "warning" from the community regarding spending has no teeth. If it actually happens and it is noticeable Kabam will notice it whether the community "warns" them or not. Conversely, if the community warns them and it doesn't happen, that warning just reminds Kabam how little the forums actually represent the majority of players, and weakens our ability to have our voices heard.
Ultimately, game companies don't care what players say, they care what players do. If what we say mirrors what players do, our voices have credibility. If it doesn't we don't. I'm sure someone will come along and say that Kabam doesn't have credibility either. But that's irrelevant. We need credibility for Kabam to listen to us. Kabam doesn't need credibility to change the game any way they want. If they don't listen to us and we don't listen to them in return, the only people who lose is us, not them. The game doesn't depend on the couple thousand of us. It mostly depends on the hundreds of thousands or millions of players that don't post on forums or Reddit, and for that matter mostly don't care about anything we're discussing. Most players, even most spenders, are only superficially involved in these issues, if at all. Kabam needs them. It doesn't need us. If we're going to make a difference, we can't keep making empty threats and throwing tantrums and thinking we lead an army of players behind us. There's no one behind us. Its just us.
We agree on companies reacting to what players do. I wasn't a forum visitor when 12.0 hit. I got my information on youtube, I didn't need to make my response online to stop spending. There are plenty of guys that don't post that feel the same way I do now. Kabam can take this lightly if they won't and they likely will but when it impacts their wallets things will change, I'm just trying to get them ahead of the game so they don't have to back pedal and revisit. Which is often what they do.