I think the best compromise/solution at this point would be to leave the interaction (BWCV/MS healing through indestructible) as is for existing content since that is how it has always worked until now, and then changes to the interaction will apply for all future content. In my opinion, that would be the most fair thing to do at this point.
Otherwise, there does not seem to be any "fair" way to retroactively apply changes like this. On one hand, people cry foul because others have cleared Champion relying on MS healing and after this gets "fixed", people won't be able to so they say it's not fair. On the other hand, now there are suggestions that the Champion might get nerfed. As much as that would appeal to the community that has not fought Champion (or haven't cleared 6.2.6 100%), using the same logic, it would hardly be fair for those who DID put a lot of time, effort, units/money to get him down.
Myself as an example, when 6.2 first came out, I spent thousands of units dealing with the last 10% of Champion. Then just a few months ago, I was going for full exploration and got stuck HARD on the No Retreat Champion. Again, I spent thousands of units reviving/healing trying to figure out how to deal with that fight and ended up having to back out after it was all said and done. It took a lot of time dueling and practicing against a Champion duel target, trying different champs, different strategies, before I finally went back in and pulled it off just last week without much trouble after practicing so much. I'm honestly not sure how it can be argued that Champion being nerfed now would be "fair" to those who struggled and spent time/energy/units/money...etc. to pull it off.
Note, I am not necessarily against content being changed retroactively because there are many fights that I think are not designed well and are unnecessarily problematic (e.g. 6.2.2 Sinister, 6.3.3 Acid Wash Mysterio...etc.), but objectively, I think if there are changes like that, some kind of compensation needs to be provided to those who dealt with it before it gets nerfed down. However, given that this content has been out for a long time and many have completed by now, I have no idea how any compensation could be given that would fairly and adequately appease the community at large.
I think the best compromise/solution at this point would be to leave the interaction (BWCV/MS healing through indestructible) as is for existing content since that is how it has always worked until now, and then changes to the interaction will apply for all future content. In my opinion, that would be the most fair thing to do at this point.
Otherwise, there does not seem to be any "fair" way to retroactively apply changes like this. On one hand, people cry foul because others have cleared Champion relying on MS healing and after this gets "fixed", people won't be able to so they say it's not fair. On the other hand, now there are suggestions that the Champion might get nerfed. As much as that would appeal to the community that has not fought Champion (or haven't cleared 6.2.6 100%), using the same logic, it would hardly be fair for those who DID put a lot of time, effort, units/money to get him down.
Myself as an example, when 6.2 first came out, I spent thousands of units dealing with the last 10% of Champion. Then just a few months ago, I was going for full exploration and got stuck HARD on the No Retreat Champion. Again, I spent thousands of units reviving/healing trying to figure out how to deal with that fight and ended up having to back out after it was all said and done. It took a lot of time dueling and practicing against a Champion duel target, trying different champs, different strategies, before I finally went back in and pulled it off just last week without much trouble after practicing so much. I'm honestly not sure how it can be argued that Champion being nerfed now would be "fair" to those who struggled and spent time/energy/units/money...etc. to pull it off.
Note, I am not necessarily against content being changed retroactively because there are many fights that I think are not designed well and are unnecessarily problematic (e.g. 6.2.2 Sinister, 6.3.3 Acid Wash Mysterio...etc.), but objectively, I think if there are changes like that, some kind of compensation needs to be provided to those who dealt with it before it gets nerfed down. However, given that this content has been out for a long time and many have completed by now, I have no idea how any compensation could be given that would fairly and adequately appease the community at large.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
Was that interaction game breaking in the past? Not really, but as the game has grown and more mechanics like that have become common, it does pose a serious issue where Champions are interacting incorrectly more than they used to. That's also why we were finally able to see it, since there are more places for this broken interaction to happen. It's not related to the Champion, but knowing that this is one of the most difficult fights in the game, and that interaction comes into play, I understand why people think this fix might be related to that.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
The problem is, damage IS being done, but IGNORED by the champ. So, it isn't a bug.
Very insightful indeed. So according to the in game description of indestructible, to fix this "bug" the entirety of indestructible in the game needs to be reworked. So ... not a bug. Smart man there 😄
I understand that it isn't good to leave bugs in the game, sure. But to my point earlier in terms of not changing existing content but fixing the interaction in future content so people don't feel cheated, one solution could be to change the text descriptions. Similar to how Parry's mastery description was changed. In practicality, nothing changed, parry functioned exactly the same but the text was clarified. Same thing could be applied here. Don't call it indestructible. Call it something else with the description that damage is dealt but is ignored by the champion. That way MS healing can still occur, nothing changes in the game for existing content, but in future content, when "indestructible" is applied, then no damage is dealt so no MS healing will occur.
Also, there do seem to be longstanding exceptions in content. For example, labyrinth of legends opponents can still evade despite you using champs that cannot be evaded (e.g. ghost). That doesn't make sense either but I never saw any clarification of why this is the case and there doesn't seem to be any changes forthcoming to it. Yet with this healing through indestructible, it's a bug that must be addressed. I'm genuinely curious why that's the case?
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
Was that interaction game breaking in the past? Not really, but as the game has grown and more mechanics like that have become common, it does pose a serious issue where Champions are interacting incorrectly more than they used to. That's also why we were finally able to see it, since there are more places for this broken interaction to happen. It's not related to the Champion, but knowing that this is one of the most difficult fights in the game, and that interaction comes into play, I understand why people think this fix might be related to that.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
Thanks again for having a conversation regarding this. Last point for the night, maybe the whole conversation 😋
If this interaction hasn't been game breaking prior to this and the motivation is to have future interactions act differently could I suggest another option, similar to @Amadeo01 suggestion.
Leave things as is to make everyone happy. The wording on indestructible is open to interpretation, I tend to after with the interpretation in the video above as does the current interaction it seems.
Going forward if the devs want to have a different interaction add a node or ability like "invulnerability" that reads immune to damage rather than ignores.
Thanks again for having a civil conversation. Have a good night.
The problem is, damage IS being done, but IGNORED by the champ. So, it isn't a bug.
You can't "Life Steal" Damage if you're not inflicting any.
Do you read before commenting ? That man is literally telling MS is dealing damage just that Champion boss isn't taking it. MS ablity just says she will Regen 50% of damage dealt not the Damage defender is taking.
If it's wrong, explain what caused these interactions in the first place.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
They've been trying to fix it. They pushed a fix either this update or the last. It didnt work for everyone. Thats a much harder bug to fix because its not effecting everyone.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
Was that interaction game breaking in the past? Not really, but as the game has grown and more mechanics like that have become common, it does pose a serious issue where Champions are interacting incorrectly more than they used to. That's also why we were finally able to see it, since there are more places for this broken interaction to happen. It's not related to the Champion, but knowing that this is one of the most difficult fights in the game, and that interaction comes into play, I understand why people think this fix might be related to that.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
It's not a bug though! Quit calling it that! Your devs choose a node option that prevents damage to The Champion but not one that kept MS, and later BWCV, from healing from the damage that's prevented. ITS A FEATURE OF INDESTRUCTIBLE. It is NOT a bug. People have identified this for you in this thread and you dont seem to reply to them, indicating you're trying to stick your head in the samd about this being exactly how that node buff works.
Exactly. It's NOT A BUG at all. if they are gonna make the change they should admit it is a nerf. If it was a bug the champion would have been taking damage. But that's not the case here.
They simply want to call this interaction bug because it helps people to deal with a hardest fight in the game.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
It's been shown in video we can use our specials well the AI hits into our block. So if we can do it so can the AI. Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
Was that interaction game breaking in the past? Not really, but as the game has grown and more mechanics like that have become common, it does pose a serious issue where Champions are interacting incorrectly more than they used to. That's also why we were finally able to see it, since there are more places for this broken interaction to happen. It's not related to the Champion, but knowing that this is one of the most difficult fights in the game, and that interaction comes into play, I understand why people think this fix might be related to that.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
It's not a bug though! Quit calling it that! Your devs choose a node option that prevents damage to The Champion but not one that kept MS, and later BWCV, from healing from the damage that's prevented. ITS A FEATURE OF INDESTRUCTIBLE. It is NOT a bug. People have identified this for you in this thread and you dont seem to reply to them, indicating you're trying to stick your head in the samd about this being exactly how that node buff works.
Exactly. It's NOT A BUG at all. if they are gonna make the change they should admit it is a nerf. If it was a bug the champion would have been taking damage. But that's not the case here.
They simply want to call this interaction bug because it helps people to deal with a hardest fight in the game.
It’s a bug. And no, 6.2 Champion is not the hardest fight in the game. In fact, once you get the hang of it, he’s ridiculously easy.
I might be making a completely irrelevant point here but ghost with a tech power boost in 6.3.6 regains power when launching a special while destructive feedback is active, even though its based on damage dealt when captain America takes no damage as there’s “crit me with your best shot” (can’t crit with destructive feedback) and I know ghost has 100% crit chance with specials but he still takes no damage when the destructive feedback goes on cool down
This is very similar to the way MS and BWCV heal(ed) when the champions indestructible. So the damage is still being dealt he just takes non of it 🤷♂️
That sounds like another bug that we should log. I know there are inconsistencies in the language in the game. It's over 5 years old, and there's new content added at least twice a month, so inconsistencies will happen. We can work to fix it the best we can when they're discovered though.
Just spitballing here but why not give the community heads up when you plan to fix these inconsistencies? Also content that has been out for an extended time and many players have benefit from this could be left untouched?
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
I get where you're coming from, but we let players know about this bug as soon as we identified it, and are giving more than a month's notice on the fix. As we mentioned earlier in this thread, this fix won't be coming until June.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
Thank you for your reply. I am not a programmer so I don't understand all of the intricacies but your point about not leaving bugs because it can lead to a rapid end for the game makes sense to me. To play devil's advocate on that point with direct regard to healing through indestructible it seems to me that has been occurring since the introduction of said mechanic. So is it really game breaking or could it just be called an intended interaction?
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
Was that interaction game breaking in the past? Not really, but as the game has grown and more mechanics like that have become common, it does pose a serious issue where Champions are interacting incorrectly more than they used to. That's also why we were finally able to see it, since there are more places for this broken interaction to happen. It's not related to the Champion, but knowing that this is one of the most difficult fights in the game, and that interaction comes into play, I understand why people think this fix might be related to that.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
It's not a bug though! Quit calling it that! Your devs choose a node option that prevents damage to The Champion but not one that kept MS, and later BWCV, from healing from the damage that's prevented. ITS A FEATURE OF INDESTRUCTIBLE. It is NOT a bug. People have identified this for you in this thread and you dont seem to reply to them, indicating you're trying to stick your head in the samd about this being exactly how that node buff works.
Exactly. It's NOT A BUG at all. if they are gonna make the change they should admit it is a nerf. If it was a bug the champion would have been taking damage. But that's not the case here.
They simply want to call this interaction bug because it helps people to deal with a hardest fight in the game.
It’s a bug. And no, 6.2 Champion is not the hardest fight in the game. In fact, once you get the hang of it, he’s ridiculously easy.
I find 6.2 Champion fight is the hardest one in game and I don't care if it's easier for you or not.
You said it's a bug. None of the indestructible ability says the attacker won't deal any damage. It simply says they won't take any damages.
For the 100th time... Damage Dealt is not equal to Damage taken. MS and BWCV regens the damage they deal not the damage defender takes. If you think that's wrong explain it.
I hardly give a damn about what fights you think hard and what not.
Damage is dealt, it is just ignored. Leave it in as able to steal; no bug to fix if looked at this way (jae sylvr!)
Far easier to change the text, than change the code.
They ignore Gulk/bane, Kamala, flow, thing sp3, parry; indeed on the latter, they just changed the text.
The only reason they want to "fix" this, is because it benefits the player base, 1,000s of whom have already used it.
I don't know where that information is coming from, but it's not true. When there are indestructible charges up, or any effect that keeps a Champion from taking damage, Morningstar (or any other Champion) is not dealing any damage in those cases.
I understand the frustration here guys, but this is not just a bug that affects one fight. This is something that can and has been exploited in other areas as well and needs to be dealt with. This has never been an intentional part of Morningstar's kit, and her ability descriptions are pretty explicit about it.
Look at 6.2.4 Destructive Feedback. You do 0 damage when its active right? But you still take damage back from electro when you hit him and its active. Even if you do 0 damage. That should be fixed then as well right?
Okay thats just fine iam to be a free to play player iam out sorry kabam this just isnt right 10 month. Please !!! Last time you nerft a champion Cullopsidion i just Got him to 5-5 and Namor 5-5 and now Morningstar 5-5 to take on the champion in 6-2 story all those players that have used MS to defeat the champion come on we have to have equal terms for all players, this isnt. I like this game . i Wonder what`is next 10 month almoust a year come on
Bwcv and Morningstar can no longer regen vs the champion??!!??!! Why is it that something that has worked in the game for the longest all of a sudden changed and called a bug?? This is the same thing as she hulk all over again. I finally pull a good champ to fight the champion boss and they get nerfed right after ranking bwcv to r2 6*. It isn’t right and something needs to be done to fix it. Ppl have been using these champs for ages to beat him. Now no one else can? How is this right?? Thoughts anyone?
So tell me how its supposed to work then. Both BWCV and Morningstars abilities say they regen from damage dealt. If they arent dealing any damage, how are they supposed to regen? Morningstar has been around for years but only recently shes been used against the champion. BWCV hasn't been around for ages. Shes been in the game for like 6 months.
If the situation was reversed and it impacted you during the fight, would you want them to leave it or fix it?
They wouldn't fix it if it benefited them and NOT us, so don't use that comparison.
Why do people say this when it is blatantly not true? The Champion fight was originally bugged in a way where the Champion would sometimes not take damage after his indestructible charges were removed and then regen out of the phase, making the fight sometimes much harder. Players did beat him when he was bugged so it wasn't impossible, just significantly more difficult. They fixed that bug when it was reported.
I'm setting aside the whole "benefited them" nonsense here as it is irrelevant. Bugs that make the content more difficult get fixed to the same degree as bugs that make the content easier for some players.
My inequity is STILL broken...over 2 years after it was acknowledged by the developers. And I'm still getting smacked by champs when hitting into their block when over a bar of power...something that didn't happen ever between 2015 and mid-2018.
If you were to categorize each bug discovered as "helpful to players" or "harmful to players" and chart the amount of time it took to address these bugs, the two issues listed above are weighing heavily on the side that speaks to the contrary of your assertion that both categories are addressed to the same degree.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
It's been shown in video we can use our specials well the AI hits into our block. So if we can do it so can the AI. Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
You must be new to the game.
Just finished my completion of act 6.4. Tell me again how new to the game I am
Your first statement is flat out false. You cannot throw a special 1 or special 2 will the opponent is hitting your block. If that was the case this game would be played totally differently. I wouldn't have to combo into special or intercept with one.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
It's been shown in video we can use our specials well the AI hits into our block. So if we can do it so can the AI. Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
You must be new to the game.
Just finished my completion of act 6.4. Tell me again how new to the game I am
Your first statement is flat out false. You cannot throw a special 1 or special 2 will the opponent is hitting your block. If that was the case this game would be played totally differently. I wouldn't have to combo into special or intercept with one.
@TheTalents actually there was a video. I remember seeing it where the attacker threw a special while blocking the A.I. it has to do with the speed if of who ever is hitting into the block. I don't remember what thread it was in but it was posted here on the forums.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
It's been shown in video we can use our specials well the AI hits into our block. So if we can do it so can the AI. Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
You must be new to the game.
Just finished my completion of act 6.4. Tell me again how new to the game I am
Your first statement is flat out false. You cannot throw a special 1 or special 2 will the opponent is hitting your block. If that was the case this game would be played totally differently. I wouldn't have to combo into special or intercept with one.
@TheTalents actually there was a video. I remember seeing it where the attacker threw a special while blocking the A.I. it has to do with the speed if of who ever is hitting into the block. I don't remember what thread it was in but it was posted here on the forums.
You got to prove that. I can say i just saw anything on the forums. Also, I've tried and I'm not able to do it.
If Kabam allowed us to special one or special 2 when fighting an aggressive AI hitting into our block, I would say its just a normal game mechanic now and move on.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
Getting smacked in the face while hitting into block?? Prime example, swept under the rug for over a year.
It's been shown in video we can use our specials well the AI hits into our block. So if we can do it so can the AI. Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix.
My 2 cents: people wouldn't react this way if Kabam dealt with bugs that are against the player base with the same urgency.
Such as?
You must be new to the game.
Just finished my completion of act 6.4. Tell me again how new to the game I am
Your first statement is flat out false. You cannot throw a special 1 or special 2 will the opponent is hitting your block. If that was the case this game would be played totally differently. I wouldn't have to combo into special or intercept with one.
Comments
Otherwise, there does not seem to be any "fair" way to retroactively apply changes like this. On one hand, people cry foul because others have cleared Champion relying on MS healing and after this gets "fixed", people won't be able to so they say it's not fair. On the other hand, now there are suggestions that the Champion might get nerfed. As much as that would appeal to the community that has not fought Champion (or haven't cleared 6.2.6 100%), using the same logic, it would hardly be fair for those who DID put a lot of time, effort, units/money to get him down.
Myself as an example, when 6.2 first came out, I spent thousands of units dealing with the last 10% of Champion. Then just a few months ago, I was going for full exploration and got stuck HARD on the No Retreat Champion. Again, I spent thousands of units reviving/healing trying to figure out how to deal with that fight and ended up having to back out after it was all said and done. It took a lot of time dueling and practicing against a Champion duel target, trying different champs, different strategies, before I finally went back in and pulled it off just last week without much trouble after practicing so much. I'm honestly not sure how it can be argued that Champion being nerfed now would be "fair" to those who struggled and spent time/energy/units/money...etc. to pull it off.
Note, I am not necessarily against content being changed retroactively because there are many fights that I think are not designed well and are unnecessarily problematic (e.g. 6.2.2 Sinister, 6.3.3 Acid Wash Mysterio...etc.), but objectively, I think if there are changes like that, some kind of compensation needs to be provided to those who dealt with it before it gets nerfed down. However, given that this content has been out for a long time and many have completed by now, I have no idea how any compensation could be given that would fairly and adequately appease the community at large.
When the BWCV interaction with The Champion was fixed was it for that fight only? Have you fixed this interaction in all areas of the game? Same with the upcoming change to the interaction between Morningstar and The Champion?
Seems to me that fixing the interaction between these abilities and indestructible, though it would possibly take longer, would best be fixed while being directed at that ability. Simply fixing it for one fight just screams to the community that you are only after their units to complete current meta.
More transparency and maybe some more time fixing bugs that hurt the player base might keep people from being so aggravated when these situations occur.
There is never going to be a case where Bugs will remain untouched just because it's old. That's not healthy for any game, and can lead to a pretty rapid end.
I also personally am always striving for more transparency between us and our players, but I don't understand what more transparency we can give here. If I'm missing something, please let me know. As for the thing about Bugs that hurt players vs those that don't, I urge you to look back at the release notes for the last 30+ releases, and then also into the many many bug fixes we make Live. I think you'll find that this silly rumour has no footing.
With regard to your point regarding fixes. I don't mean to diminish the work put into this game, I love it and you guys do fix problems on both sides. I don't want to derail this conversation but one "bug" that is a bone of contention is the ai ability to retaliate while hitting into block. Is there another post that could be discussed in so this one can not get side tracked?
The problem is, damage IS being done, but IGNORED by the champ. So, it isn't a bug.
As for the Blocking and Specials thing, we know it's an issue, and the thread surrounding that problem was closed because it was being targeted. That doesn't mean we're not aware, or ignoring it. We're making progress to alleviate the issue every release.
If this interaction hasn't been game breaking prior to this and the motivation is to have future interactions act differently could I suggest another option, similar to @Amadeo01 suggestion.
Leave things as is to make everyone happy. The wording on indestructible is open to interpretation, I tend to after with the interpretation in the video above as does the current interaction it seems.
Going forward if the devs want to have a different interaction add a node or ability like "invulnerability" that reads immune to damage rather than ignores.
Thanks again for having a civil conversation. Have a good night.
If it's wrong, explain what caused these interactions in the first place.
They simply want to call this interaction bug because it helps people to deal with a hardest fight in the game.
Also they have done multiple attempts to relieve that bug which has only worked for some player base. Making it a much harder fix. Just finished my completion of act 6.4. Tell me again how new to the game I am
You said it's a bug. None of the indestructible ability says the attacker won't deal any damage. It simply says they won't take any damages.
For the 100th time... Damage Dealt is not equal to Damage taken. MS and BWCV regens the damage they deal not the damage defender takes. If you think that's wrong explain it.
I hardly give a damn about what fights you think hard and what not.
You do 0 damage when its active right?
But you still take damage back from electro when you hit him and its active.
Even if you do 0 damage. That should be fixed then as well right?
I like this game .
i Wonder what`is next 10 month almoust a year come on
If you were to categorize each bug discovered as "helpful to players" or "harmful to players" and chart the amount of time it took to address these bugs, the two issues listed above are weighing heavily on the side that speaks to the contrary of your assertion that both categories are addressed to the same degree.
If Kabam allowed us to special one or special 2 when fighting an aggressive AI hitting into our block, I would say its just a normal game mechanic now and move on.
And a GIF taken from Namor in Back Issues (in case someone wants to say it’s specific to low end AI).