I'm not defending kabam, I personally only took she hulk to r3 and she will stay there regardless. But I hate getting on here the few times a month I do, and hearing about rank down tickets. this question is pure curiousity, say what you will, your opinions of me mean nothing. Why do you expect kabam to give you something back everytime something doesnt work the way its supposed to, especially on a game thats free, im not FTP but thats my choice, If your gonna spend money on a game go buy some ps4 and xbox one games and then demand sony or microsoft refund your parts because your car in need for speed didnt work like you thought it would then let me know how that goes for you. RDT's shouldve never been introduced and I hope they never reappear. Thats my 2 cents for this month
I'm not defending kabam, I personally only took she hulk to r3 and she will stay there regardless. But I hate getting on here the few times a month I do, and hearing about rank down tickets. this question is pure curiousity, say what you will, your opinions of me mean nothing. Why do you expect kabam to give you something back everytime something doesnt work the way its supposed to, especially on a game thats free, im not FTP but thats my choice, If your gonna spend money on a game go buy some ps4 and xbox one games and then demand sony or microsoft refund your parts because your car in need for speed didnt work like you thought it would then let me know how that goes for you. RDT's shouldve never been introduced and I hope they never reappear. Thats my 2 cents for this month
People asked for rank down tickets because they believed that this heavy chain was intended and as soon as they take it away people are left there feeling cheated that's like being told there is an engine in a car and you buy the car and there is no engine
My only answer to that is common sense says Test drive before you buy, especially if putting higher end resources into the decision. I didnt jump to that conclusion therefore i have just another r3 5* for arena. If they took her to r5, then they know this game well enough to know better than jump right on the band wagon.
My only answer to that is common sense says Test drive before you buy, especially if putting higher end resources into the decision. I didnt jump to that conclusion therefore i have just another r3 5* for arena. If they took her to r5, then they know this game well enough to know better than jump right on the band wagon.
We took the car for a test drive and it was awesome so we bought it. Then the manufacturer did a global recall and replaced the V8 engine with a goldfish in a bowl and some hot potato chips. THAT'S why we're upset.
I'm one of the people who ranked her to rank 4 using the gem from Variant 3. Just to give a feedback, a compensation is needed since the main purpose was to use her mechanic to fight The Champion boss in act 6.2.6, wich is now way more difficult, if not almost impossible, to do with her at rank 4.
Give rank down ticket for her or some kind of different compensation to the summoners who ranked her. Of course the other option is to leave her as she was, since the "fix" would generate a huge difficulty gap between who made the champion with her before and who will face him in the future.
OML can also chain a heavy at the end of his combo. Buff a champ then nerf them. They will do the same thing to OML. Beware before ranking him up.
I don't think I'd be as fussed if that happened. She-Hulk benefited so dang much from the heavy chain playstyle because she could stack furies that also had a taunt mechanic on them, making fighting big enemies trivial. I mean have you seen 3-star She-Hulk destroy LoL Red Hulk? Yeah that was ridiculous. Based on the beta abilities (yes I know that it's not final, but I doubt they'll change his abilities past a numbers revamp), Old Man Logan doesn't have anything that will make that playstyle ridiculously good for him. Yes maybe you'll be able to keep your furies for a while longer, but it's not like it makes everything ridiculously easy.
The biggest problem that I have with this whole She-Hulk fiasco is how Kabam handled it. If, as soon as they'd realised that She-Hulk could do this, and it was so ridiculously overpowered, they'd told us 'hey this is not intended and we're gonna fix this; take that into account when ranking her up', then I think this would not have been such a mess as it is right now. Kabam. Please start a bug board. Or at least start being a ton more active in updating the community on how your bug squashing quest is going along. #Transparency
They were unintended glitches in their mechanics. Drax wasn't even something that was with all devices. There's no bait in my statement. There seems to be bait in others on here, but I'm not interested in taking it.
The abilities of SW and Thor pre-nerf were also “glitches in their mechanics” Kabam issued rank down tickets. Same should happen here. If they lack the foresight into exploits they should be the ones who swallow the pill.
No. Those weren't just glitches in their mechanics. They were the intended performance of Champs. Very specific Abilities which, in combination with Synergies and a percentage-based system, brought the future of the game itself into a stalemate. They couldn't create anything the Champs couldn't mathematically cut through.
It’s laughable that you think that doesn’t meet the definition of a glitch. Just because kabam’s fine tuning has come down to more minute changes doesn’t mean that people investing resources in viable champs shouldn’t be acknowledged. Indefensible to not compensate for.
The difference between a glitch and an intended Ability change is exactly what we're discussing, and there IS a difference. I'm completely aware of the difference between this and 12.0. I was here the whole time.
Do you think they intended for the leadership mastery to create perfect block teams that would dominate the game? Do you think they intended for willpower to make 1/2 the champs not viable and others almost unkillable? Do you think they intended for SW to be able to keep opponents stunned the entire fight or beat anything in the game with a crit team? Any time they change anything it's because it isn't working as intended. They didn't change them because they were working as intended but they changed their mind, they changed them because the design wasn't producing the intended result. She hulk is no more "glitched" than they were. She hulk is working exactly as she was designed to work. There is no programming glitch causing her to be able to chain combos into stuns. When Doc Oc used to cause opponents to start the fight dead, that was a glitch. Of course SH isn't working the way they intended her to work. Any time they alter a champ it's because they aren't working the way they were intended to work. Sometimes there is a bug. Sometimes they just didn't realize how the design would play. None of this should have any bearing on whether or not compensation is warranted.
Shulk was not intentionally designed that way. Nothing about her design even remotely suggests it, nor her Description. Many people have tried to Rank Champs and take advantage of things not intended. That didn't result in Tickets. I can think of a number of examples. Simply put, just because it has persisted doesn't mean it was intended, and it doesn't automatically mean people are owed something when it's fixed. If you're going to suggest this is the same as 12.0, which DID warrant Compensation, I don't think you remember the difference in the degree of change.
Did you read what I wrote? No champ that was changed was intentionally designed to do the thing that they ultimately changed. The distinction you are making for when rank downs are and are not appropriate is nonsense. You seem to have reverted to the whatever Kabam does is right mode and have no regard for what is actually the right thing to do. No one is disputing that this was an intended thing. The fact is that she has had an ability for years which other champs also have, and people used their resources to rank her because this ability recently became valuable. Kabam is taking this away. The right thing to do is to offer compensation. As your starting premise is that Kabam can do whatever they like without compensation provided a champ is doing something that wasn't intended, without consideration of the specific case, there can be no meaningful dialogue. You see no distinction between She Hulk and Gwen Pool. You need to apply wisdom.
Spot on.
There may have been no indication She-Hulk was supposed to perform the way she did, but there was also no indication she wasn’t—especially since she had long been able to quick heavy and was the subject of a recent beta that highlighted the ability.
What’s the point of QA, testing, a beta if you don’t use it to identify the most obvious issues with a champ?
To argue that players should have known because it wasn’t explicitly in her “Stated Abilities” puts dozens of other champs in the crosshairs. I won’t enumerate them here; others have done a fine job in this thread. But it’s ridiculous to be “test driving” champs indefinitely in fear they suddenly become a developer’s nerf target.
Last point, and one that troubles me: it feels deeply out of touch for the team to drop this into the changelog unceremoniously and without any dialogue or explanation.
I don’t ascribe that to sneakiness; I just don’t get it.
Shulk was not intentionally designed that way. Nothing about her design even remotely suggests it, nor her Description.
What does that matter?
"Nothing about her design... nor description."
Honestly, what/why does that even matter?
Domino, Symbiote Supreme: Here we have two clear examples of times where a character's description says they should work one way, they don't, and instead of fixing things like they should Kabam changes the description to fit their narrative.
Drax and Archangel: Here we have examples of times where we are told directly, by Kabam themselves, that a character is working as intended, only to have the character and Kabam backpeddles and says it was never intended and their changes were a "fix". These two examples are legitimate moments of gaslighting.
Magik: Here we have a clear example of a characters description NOT expressing an ability - “to remember” how much power she stole. Kabam attempted to change it - without warning - faced pushback and then reversed their decision and told us flat out that it was a mistake and it’s an unwritten ability that was intended...this reversal btw was done BECAUSE of community outrage at Kabam trying to change something that had worked a specific way since the characters revamp.
So really - legitimate question, what does it matter what her description says when we can’t even trust what Kabam tells us directly because they will change their mind and change characters at a whim, with no consistency between changes and we are expected to just eat it.
Daredevil not being affected by invisibility makes sense since he doesn't use sight.
Magneto and Juggs being immune to reverse controls is pulled straight from the comics and other forms of entertainment they've been in. Once again makes sense.
Symbiote Supreme they tested and decided he would be to strong if they kept his text the way it was and matched his abilities to that thus they compromised by improving his intended % to 50 percent from its current 30%. I have Sym Sup as a r5/65 and have sunk close to 100 sig stones into him and don't regret it.
Although I feel for those who r5/65 a she hulk for this one strategy they thought was intended it was stated that no champion besides Wasp should be able to do this. And yes it sucks but if no rdts were given for MD changes or AAs changes then I gotta disagree with this warranting a RDT. She can still stack her furies and apply taunt just not at a ridiculous level where she was essentially safe from damage from certain champions sp1s
Not trying to be argumentative here, but could you point out where the team stated that only Wasp can chain into a heavy?
I recall them pointing out in chatter that Wasp specifically could, but I don’t recall there ever being a pronouncement that she was the only one.
If you have the post, I’d like to see it. Again, not trying to challenge here—just want to clarify whether I remember it all correctly.
Hi Kabam, I'd like to ask if we can expect Unstoppable Colossus, Superior Ironman, Luke Cage, Venom, Ultron (AoU), OG Ultron and Old Man Logan being fixed regarding their clearly unintended ability to combo Heavy attacks? It bothers me deeply that we are still able to cheat like this with above champions and I would like to ask you if you are going to make it right, we really need your help here - it is not even in their description, yet they are still able to do that, community just found out! And there may be even more! Could you please tell when we can expect those game-breaking bugs being removed? I have a new founded hope it is possible now you performed so greatly with She-hulk, she was too good anyway, one can only imagine what could others like UC or Sup. Ironman do if this is not fixed.
Kabam so you're telling me I wasted 180 signature stones and the resources the rank 4 She-Hulk? You're telling me she's no longer going to be able to do what several other champs can do? That it was a bug this whole time but you only realized it now? That you couldn't have warned us about this months ago? 😑🔫 FYI four years I've been playing, almost five and I'm about to quit over this. It's not fair to the players, to me smh.
Maybe the easiest thing to do is “update” she hulk’s description like was done with Symbiote Supreme. No change requires no RDTs and the community will be happy.
Hi Kabam, I'd like to ask if we can expect Unstoppable Colossus, Superior Ironman, Luke Cage, Venom, Ultron (AoU), OG Ultron and Old Man Logan being fixed regarding their clearly unintended ability to combo Heavy attacks? It bothers me deeply that we are still able to cheat like this with above champions and I would like to ask you if you are going to make it right, we really need your help here - it is not even in their description, yet they are still able to do that, community just found out! And there may be even more! Could you please tell when we can expect those game-breaking bugs being removed? I have a new founded hope it is possible now you performed so greatly with She-hulk, she was too good anyway, one can only imagine what could others like UC or Sup. Ironman do if this is not fixed.
Thank you very much for all your care
The video proof, coz ull need it to understand the issue with these champions
seen as my previous post was deemed inappropriate and non-constructive and deleted i’ll try again.
this is a slippery slope in my opinion, you start dictating that all champs must have formulaic and identical speed and cadence in their combos and heavies then where does it end? what about 6 and 7 hit combos that some champs have? that’s not stated in their descriptions and surely alters cadence and gives an advantage over other champs etc...
to suggest there is no difference in ease of execution between say new captain marvel and hyperions heavies is truly laughable, you need to give us more credit than that.
variance in characters is LITERALLY what makes some champs more or less appealing, whether that’s speed, reach, durability etc...and something such as this screams of reacting to something that players have found beneficial in end game content (she hulk vs 6.2 champion)
yes this interaction means you can avoid block damage and shut an opponent down if your skill and timing is on point...how is this different than ghosts core ability to avoid block damage through phasing or cap IW with his guaranteed perfect block parries?
Daredevil not being affected by invisibility makes sense since he doesn't use sight.
Magneto and Juggs being immune to reverse controls is pulled straight from the comics and other forms of entertainment they've been in. Once again makes sense.
Symbiote Supreme they tested and decided he would be to strong if they kept his text the way it was and matched his abilities to that thus they compromised by improving his intended % to 50 percent from its current 30%. I have Sym Sup as a r5/65 and have sunk close to 100 sig stones into him and don't regret it.
Although I feel for those who r5/65 a she hulk for this one strategy they thought was intended it was stated that no champion besides Wasp should be able to do this. And yes it sucks but if no rdts were given for MD changes or AAs changes then I gotta disagree with this warranting a RDT. She can still stack her furies and apply taunt just not at a ridiculous level where she was essentially safe from damage from certain champions sp1s
Not trying to be argumentative here, but could you point out where the team stated that only Wasp can chain into a heavy?
I recall them pointing out in chatter that Wasp specifically could, but I don’t recall there ever being a pronouncement that she was the only one.
If you have the post, I’d like to see it. Again, not trying to challenge here—just want to clarify whether I remember it all correctly.
Dr. Zola
I mean... I can't say whether they explicitly stated that or not, but it is heavily implied by the way she's designed.
She has a built in stun to pull that off, if it was intended for any quick heavy with proper input timing to reliably allow for that, then why bother with the stun and not just give her the by far quickest heavy animation in game?
Thanks—I didn’t recall anything explicit from the team either. Just wanted to know if you had seen something—it would affect my opinion of the situation if the team had actually said something like “Wasp has this ability that no one else has.”
Check out the KT1 video in the main She-Hulk thread—there’s a decent amount of footage that shows heavy-ended combos. Depending on the combo, certain hits from different champs put the opp in a position it can be heavied.
Daredevil not being affected by invisibility makes sense since he doesn't use sight.
Magneto and Juggs being immune to reverse controls is pulled straight from the comics and other forms of entertainment they've been in. Once again makes sense.
Symbiote Supreme they tested and decided he would be to strong if they kept his text the way it was and matched his abilities to that thus they compromised by improving his intended % to 50 percent from its current 30%. I have Sym Sup as a r5/65 and have sunk close to 100 sig stones into him and don't regret it.
Although I feel for those who r5/65 a she hulk for this one strategy they thought was intended it was stated that no champion besides Wasp should be able to do this. And yes it sucks but if no rdts were given for MD changes or AAs changes then I gotta disagree with this warranting a RDT. She can still stack her furies and apply taunt just not at a ridiculous level where she was essentially safe from damage from certain champions sp1s
I was going to say the same thing about DD and the helmets, and sorry if this has already been said, but I think the issue is that sure, we know why that makes sense, but that goes against what has been said that if it is not in the description, then it is not intended, while even things in the description are no longer reliable.
The way this "bug fix" is being handled is a straight up joke. I remember using SIM to lock champs in the corner with heavy attacks like 3 years ago, but I suppose that wasn't a problem since he was never that good. Now that a good champ can do it and one that is a solution to the 6.2.6 boss, NOW you fix it? What a coincidence...
Let me just say that there are many other champs in the game that can do things outside of their "stated" abilities. Some of these champs, like *redacted* and *redacted* can use their abilities and some tricks that exist in the game to make many fights very very easy. Yet, this isn't explicitly stated in either of these champions description. Am I to assume that this is a bug?
What Kabam is doing is completely arbitrary and makes no sense seeing as tons of other champs can do things outside of what their abilities specifically state. What's really happening is that they don't like how useful She-Hulk has become and that she counters some of the hardest content in the game, so they're bringing out the nerf gun...
I wonder, does Kabam realize how frustrating it is for us players to constantly have to defend against stuff like this? They throw random nerfs or "bug fixes" into the patch notes and then players have to explain how this so called "bug" has literally been in the game since the beginning. I dunno, I sure grow weary of this process repeating itself every couple of months.
Well said. Plus, even if it was in the abilities: Symbiote Supreme shows that not even those are reliable. Anything can be a "bug", how in the world are we supposed to know?
Its like Kabam is setting up the pretense that they can just change whatever they want and call it either 1: a bug fix, or 2: a mistake in the description. They can literally do whatever they want and call it one of those two things.
if it's about comics, then there is alot more than 5 hit combo into a heavy that she hulk can do, and almost any other champions, so when it comes to make sense then it make a lot of sense that she-hulk can do a 5 hit combo into a heavy or just break the spine of the oponent
Lets talk about how multiple 'meme' tier champs amongst others also have the ability to combo into a heavy: - superior iron man - both versions of ultra - venom - unstoppable colossus
So why is it that now the only champion being altered is she hulk who makes some of the end game content easier? So lets just accept that the testing of your champions is flawed and offer compensation to those who genuinely believed that this was a feature certain characters had.
If it’s considered a bug because it’s not in her ability description just write it in. Without the mechanic it’s nearly impossible to keep any furies ramped up on the short timer. If not maybe think about extending her fury buff timer to realistically be able to stack furies up outside of near perfect conditions. Too many champs have long winded animations that would never make her a viable option like she currently is. Keep her strong and you won’t have so many people that ranked her up rage about this sudden nerf to her viability.
Comments
Just to give a feedback, a compensation is needed since the main purpose was to use her mechanic to fight The Champion boss in act 6.2.6, wich is now way more difficult, if not almost impossible, to do with her at rank 4.
Give rank down ticket for her or some kind of different compensation to the summoners who ranked her.
Of course the other option is to leave her as she was, since the "fix" would generate a huge difficulty gap between who made the champion with her before and who will face him in the future.
She-Hulk benefited so dang much from the heavy chain playstyle because she could stack furies that also had a taunt mechanic on them, making fighting big enemies trivial. I mean have you seen 3-star She-Hulk destroy LoL Red Hulk? Yeah that was ridiculous.
Based on the beta abilities (yes I know that it's not final, but I doubt they'll change his abilities past a numbers revamp), Old Man Logan doesn't have anything that will make that playstyle ridiculously good for him. Yes maybe you'll be able to keep your furies for a while longer, but it's not like it makes everything ridiculously easy.
The biggest problem that I have with this whole She-Hulk fiasco is how Kabam handled it. If, as soon as they'd realised that She-Hulk could do this, and it was so ridiculously overpowered, they'd told us 'hey this is not intended and we're gonna fix this; take that into account when ranking her up', then I think this would not have been such a mess as it is right now.
Kabam. Please start a bug board. Or at least start being a ton more active in updating the community on how your bug squashing quest is going along. #Transparency
There may have been no indication She-Hulk was supposed to perform the way she did, but there was also no indication she wasn’t—especially since she had long been able to quick heavy and was the subject of a recent beta that highlighted the ability.
What’s the point of QA, testing, a beta if you don’t use it to identify the most obvious issues with a champ?
To argue that players should have known because it wasn’t explicitly in her “Stated Abilities” puts dozens of other champs in the crosshairs. I won’t enumerate them here; others have done a fine job in this thread. But it’s ridiculous to be “test driving” champs indefinitely in fear they suddenly become a developer’s nerf target.
Last point, and one that troubles me: it feels deeply out of touch for the team to drop this into the changelog unceremoniously and without any dialogue or explanation.
I don’t ascribe that to sneakiness; I just don’t get it.
Dr. Zola
"Nothing about her design... nor description."
Honestly, what/why does that even matter?
Domino, Symbiote Supreme: Here we have two clear examples of times where a character's description says they should work one way, they don't, and instead of fixing things like they should Kabam changes the description to fit their narrative.
Drax and Archangel: Here we have examples of times where we are told directly, by Kabam themselves, that a character is working as intended, only to have the character and Kabam backpeddles and says it was never intended and their changes were a "fix". These two examples are legitimate moments of gaslighting.
Magik: Here we have a clear example of a characters description NOT expressing an ability - “to remember” how much power she stole. Kabam attempted to change it - without warning - faced pushback and then reversed their decision and told us flat out that it was a mistake and it’s an unwritten ability that was intended...this reversal btw was done BECAUSE of community outrage at Kabam trying to change something that had worked a specific way since the characters revamp.
So really - legitimate question, what does it matter what her description says when we can’t even trust what Kabam tells us directly because they will change their mind and change characters at a whim, with no consistency between changes and we are expected to just eat it.
I recall them pointing out in chatter that Wasp specifically could, but I don’t recall there ever being a pronouncement that she was the only one.
If you have the post, I’d like to see it. Again, not trying to challenge here—just want to clarify whether I remember it all correctly.
Dr. Zola
I'd like to ask if we can expect Unstoppable Colossus, Superior Ironman, Luke Cage, Venom, Ultron (AoU), OG Ultron and Old Man Logan being fixed regarding their clearly unintended ability to combo Heavy attacks? It bothers me deeply that we are still able to cheat like this with above champions and I would like to ask you if you are going to make it right, we really need your help here - it is not even in their description, yet they are still able to do that, community just found out! And there may be even more! Could you please tell when we can expect those game-breaking bugs being removed? I have a new founded hope it is possible now you performed so greatly with She-hulk, she was too good anyway, one can only imagine what could others like UC or Sup. Ironman do if this is not fixed.
Thank you very much for all your care
this is a slippery slope in my opinion, you start dictating that all champs must have formulaic and identical speed and cadence in their combos and heavies then where does it end? what about 6 and 7 hit combos that some champs have? that’s not stated in their descriptions and surely alters cadence and gives an advantage over other champs etc...
to suggest there is no difference in ease of execution between say new captain marvel and hyperions heavies is truly laughable, you need to give us more credit than that.
variance in characters is LITERALLY what makes some champs more or less appealing, whether that’s speed, reach, durability etc...and something such as this screams of reacting to something that players have found beneficial in end game content (she hulk vs 6.2 champion)
yes this interaction means you can avoid block damage and shut an opponent down if your skill and timing is on point...how is this different than ghosts core ability to avoid block damage through phasing or cap IW with his guaranteed perfect block parries?
Check out the KT1 video in the main She-Hulk thread—there’s a decent amount of footage that shows heavy-ended combos. Depending on the combo, certain hits from different champs put the opp in a position it can be heavied.
Dr. Zola
Dr. Zola
Lets talk about how multiple 'meme' tier champs amongst others also have the ability to combo into a heavy:
- superior iron man
- both versions of ultra
- venom
- unstoppable colossus
KT1 shows this footage -
So why is it that now the only champion being altered is she hulk who makes some of the end game content easier?
So lets just accept that the testing of your champions is flawed and offer compensation to those who genuinely believed that this was a feature certain characters had.