Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

TheTalents

Lormif said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

KinkyWizard1 said:

Kabam Miike said:

WingTSE said:

Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.

Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.

Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.

Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released

If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.

Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do

I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.

I thing I’ve learnt about numbers is that they don’t lie but they can be deceiving, and this is a prime example of this

I have to disagree with grounded wisdom and you here. Numbers can lie. There are entire fields of statistics dedicated to understanding numbers to make sure they are seeing the truth.

NinjAlan said:

Lormif said:

NinjAlan said:

Lormif said:

Dizzy said:

Not a Cull player. Just saying that it's a little shady that Kabam told us explicitly that this would only impact champions not in the basic, but then would go back and adjust three champs in the basic.

I'm fine waiting on ranking up a champion to R5 until he/she enters the basic. It's tedious, but if I'm really terrified they'll get nerfed I'll wait. I'm not fine waiting forever because I'll never know when a champion is "safe" to rank up.

Can you point to where they said it would not affect those in basic? I am pretty sure you are taking their statement out of context.

It's posted in here several times. Do you actually read threads? Or just find ones you can easily disagree with?

I have yet to see it, why could you not link it?

Ok, now in there, please circle where it says they will not evaluate and change champions outside of that period, which is the claim in dispute... If I tell you I will mow the lawn right after a storm that does not mean that I will not mow the lawn lacking a storm...

It clearly says they will notify us before the champions enter the basic pool. What about that isn't clear? Cull Obsidian is in the basic pull before this announcement.

GroundedWisdom

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

Lormif

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Indrick781 said:

If you stop responding to those that derail threads, they won't be able to derail them. I have them on ignore and threads are so much easier to get through.

Always easier to get through threads when you remove those that disagree with you under the auspice of "derailing", generally though it is people like you who start the derailing, as you just did.

You have 3025 posts and over 4.6k dislikes since that feature rolled out. You're one of the two they are referring to in this post who have spammed over 10% of the total comments. You're pretty openly argumentative and combative, often engaging negatively with those who don't invoke you first or at all. You've been called on this on other posts, usually when there's a big controversy like this one, for pushing your agenda and viewpoint to the point where a moderator needs to step in. It's pretty tiresome to read to be honest, and yet here we are again with the same issue. I see 3-4 defenders of this issue commenting, and literally the Japam guy posted the same reply, sometimes in all caps, multiple times and pages on here.

You don't agree with those upset. Got it. At this point though, what point are you trying to make that hasn't already been said?

Actually my posts were high before the feature was rolled out. Moderators tend to step in for other people in reply to me, I have only had one warning, because I dont insult or derail. My posts are generally on topic until someone else attacks me. Also dislikes are a popularity contest, it has no bearing on the content of the message, therefore I dont really care about them. Also I where do you see what percentage of posts someone has made on a thread, that would be interesting to see.

You and groundedwisdom have so made a pattern of this on these types of posts, someone on reddit counted every single comment on this thread and counted up how many you and GW made. That's the percent. It's probably still climbing.

You can tell yourself that disagrees don't matter, but isn't that a bit strange since you're so invested in writing on this forum every day? If you don't care about other's opinions (hitting a disagree button on your posts or direct comments) why post here at all? Isn't that the point, to see if others agree with you or not?

Or are you really that stubborn that you can tell yourself your opinion is correct in every instance, to the point where you needed to reply over 10% of a 1000+ commented thread - but you openly say you don't think disagree totals matter? LOL that seems strange to me.

If you're having others make video comments and reddit posts about your comments on this forum, if I were in your shoes, I would maybe take a look at what I'm doing and saying. So I'll ask again: even if you don't believe in disagreement with your posts, after admitting that's what you think a discussion means, what is the point you haven't already made here? If you continue posting the same thing, is it not by the very definition you laid out attacking other users for sharing theirs? Being purposefully combative just to prove them wrong?

Is that really your job? And who appointed you? What purpose are you serving by continuing to push it?

if disagrees mattered to me then I would post in agreement with people. I post to share knowledge, not be apart of high school like popularity contests.

My opinion is not correct in every instance, but my logic is generally, not always, pretty good. And no, it is not attacking other users for sharing their opinin, it is attacking their statements, which is how discussions are supposed to work. If you cannot reply to people without being considered attacking them then you could not have a discussion.

Vynrial

If you're nerfing his damage you had better be improving his block proficiency, because otherwise he will just become another bench warmer!

MattMan

why thoroughly test and tune characters before release when you can make money first and then screw over your customers later?

What a joke.

Hey Miike - your car manufacturer called. They want you to bring in your car for tuning....it’s getting a bit better gas mileage than they would like it to get.

BigPoppaCBONE

Lormif said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.

They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.

Tbonne

If yall what to change a champion 3 months after it's been out then u need to give rank down gem period u changing not us

Nick_Caine_32

Lormif said:

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Indrick781 said:

If you stop responding to those that derail threads, they won't be able to derail them. I have them on ignore and threads are so much easier to get through.

Always easier to get through threads when you remove those that disagree with you under the auspice of "derailing", generally though it is people like you who start the derailing, as you just did.

You have 3025 posts and over 4.6k dislikes since that feature rolled out. You're one of the two they are referring to in this post who have spammed over 10% of the total comments. You're pretty openly argumentative and combative, often engaging negatively with those who don't invoke you first or at all. You've been called on this on other posts, usually when there's a big controversy like this one, for pushing your agenda and viewpoint to the point where a moderator needs to step in. It's pretty tiresome to read to be honest, and yet here we are again with the same issue. I see 3-4 defenders of this issue commenting, and literally the Japam guy posted the same reply, sometimes in all caps, multiple times and pages on here.

You don't agree with those upset. Got it. At this point though, what point are you trying to make that hasn't already been said?

Actually my posts were high before the feature was rolled out. Moderators tend to step in for other people in reply to me, I have only had one warning, because I dont insult or derail. My posts are generally on topic until someone else attacks me. Also dislikes are a popularity contest, it has no bearing on the content of the message, therefore I dont really care about them. Also I where do you see what percentage of posts someone has made on a thread, that would be interesting to see.

You and groundedwisdom have so made a pattern of this on these types of posts, someone on reddit counted every single comment on this thread and counted up how many you and GW made. That's the percent. It's probably still climbing.

You can tell yourself that disagrees don't matter, but isn't that a bit strange since you're so invested in writing on this forum every day? If you don't care about other's opinions (hitting a disagree button on your posts or direct comments) why post here at all? Isn't that the point, to see if others agree with you or not?

Or are you really that stubborn that you can tell yourself your opinion is correct in every instance, to the point where you needed to reply over 10% of a 1000+ commented thread - but you openly say you don't think disagree totals matter? LOL that seems strange to me.

If you're having others make video comments and reddit posts about your comments on this forum, if I were in your shoes, I would maybe take a look at what I'm doing and saying. So I'll ask again: even if you don't believe in disagreement with your posts, after admitting that's what you think a discussion means, what is the point you haven't already made here? If you continue posting the same thing, is it not by the very definition you laid out attacking other users for sharing theirs? Being purposefully combative just to prove them wrong?

Is that really your job? And who appointed you? What purpose are you serving by continuing to push it?

if disagrees mattered to me then I would post in agreement with people. I post to share knowledge, not be apart of high school like popularity contests.

My opinion is not correct in every instance, but my logic is generally, not always, pretty good. And no, it is not attacking other users for sharing their opinin, it is attacking their statements, which is how discussions are supposed to work. If you cannot reply to people without being considered attacking them then you could not have a discussion.

Opinions = knowledge. Got it.

You can reply to people as much as you want, my point is that some self reflection on your part could be a good thing. Ill let you carry on though, for all the good it's doing.

Ill make one final point on this and let others speak because I don't wanna fall in that trap myself:

I truly believe if Kabam fixed the system of champion rollouts, featured crystals/packages/arenas when they come out, or their compensation model that we would as a community be much more receptive to these changes. It's when we have no guarantee if the "case by case" basis will come down in our favor if we ranked and spent on that champ that things get toxic, like we see with this thread. If we're already starting from a TOS perspective that every player is at the whim of the company at the end of the day, and THEN we have no guarantee that things will be made right when there's a change to a character, and no guarantee that we will get back our resources we spent and don't get in huge quantities, that's when you're gonna eventually run that system into the ground. I think we're starting to see that. It's kind of amazing to me to see the 3-4 people who don't have an issue with Cull being changed ALSO have the opinion that everything is fine with the system as it is right now. That's the problem, not Cull being changed as much as I personally don't think he needs it. And personally, all this and the last few months have made me do is hold off on ranking anyone until the big announcements come out. And i'm not buying packages or crystals. That doesn't seem like something Kabam intended to cause but is probably the case with a lot of people right now, and needs to be dealt with some kind of reassurance going forward that we're not all gonna be waiting for the other shoe to drop in perpetuity.

Tbonne

If yall what to change a champion 3 months after it's been out then u need to give everyone a rank down gem because we bought it though crytals or grinding most have compensation

Lormif

BigPoppaCBONE said:

Lormif said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.

They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.

except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.

Lvernon15

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

Shawtey90

I Demand everything back that I've spent on Cull Obsidian!
Bought the Cull crystals offers and used a generic awakening gem on him + all my sig stones!

It is more than ridiculous at this point, this is just straight up FRAUD!
Cull was "bugged" and unusable for several weeks, then you "tuned" him only to make him way too powerful and fixed him on the second day, this is just against the playerbase and has nothing to do with tuning or tweaking or whatsoever. I'm really at a point right now where I'm too anxious to rank up any champ just because I have to be afraid that it will be nerfed to the ground in the near future and thus I would have spent resources on a falsely advertised champ!

Get your s**t together and stop robbing the playerbase for God's sake!

GroundedWisdom

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Harry_hzy

Lormif said:

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Nick_Caine_32 said:

Lormif said:

Indrick781 said:

If you stop responding to those that derail threads, they won't be able to derail them. I have them on ignore and threads are so much easier to get through.

Always easier to get through threads when you remove those that disagree with you under the auspice of "derailing", generally though it is people like you who start the derailing, as you just did.

You have 3025 posts and over 4.6k dislikes since that feature rolled out. You're one of the two they are referring to in this post who have spammed over 10% of the total comments. You're pretty openly argumentative and combative, often engaging negatively with those who don't invoke you first or at all. You've been called on this on other posts, usually when there's a big controversy like this one, for pushing your agenda and viewpoint to the point where a moderator needs to step in. It's pretty tiresome to read to be honest, and yet here we are again with the same issue. I see 3-4 defenders of this issue commenting, and literally the Japam guy posted the same reply, sometimes in all caps, multiple times and pages on here.

You don't agree with those upset. Got it. At this point though, what point are you trying to make that hasn't already been said?

Actually my posts were high before the feature was rolled out. Moderators tend to step in for other people in reply to me, I have only had one warning, because I dont insult or derail. My posts are generally on topic until someone else attacks me. Also dislikes are a popularity contest, it has no bearing on the content of the message, therefore I dont really care about them. Also I where do you see what percentage of posts someone has made on a thread, that would be interesting to see.

You and groundedwisdom have so made a pattern of this on these types of posts, someone on reddit counted every single comment on this thread and counted up how many you and GW made. That's the percent. It's probably still climbing.

You can tell yourself that disagrees don't matter, but isn't that a bit strange since you're so invested in writing on this forum every day? If you don't care about other's opinions (hitting a disagree button on your posts or direct comments) why post here at all? Isn't that the point, to see if others agree with you or not?

Or are you really that stubborn that you can tell yourself your opinion is correct in every instance, to the point where you needed to reply over 10% of a 1000+ commented thread - but you openly say you don't think disagree totals matter? LOL that seems strange to me.

If you're having others make video comments and reddit posts about your comments on this forum, if I were in your shoes, I would maybe take a look at what I'm doing and saying. So I'll ask again: even if you don't believe in disagreement with your posts, after admitting that's what you think a discussion means, what is the point you haven't already made here? If you continue posting the same thing, is it not by the very definition you laid out attacking other users for sharing theirs? Being purposefully combative just to prove them wrong?

Is that really your job? And who appointed you? What purpose are you serving by continuing to push it?

if disagrees mattered to me then I would post in agreement with people. I post to share knowledge, not be apart of high school like popularity contests.

My opinion is not correct in every instance, but my logic is generally, not always, pretty good. And no, it is not attacking other users for sharing their opinin, it is attacking their statements, which is how discussions are supposed to work. If you cannot reply to people without being considered attacking them then you could not have a discussion.

To be honest, your logic is very strange. You think game balance is everything, so for the game balance, kabam can do anything, all the player who worsted lots of money should be very happy what kabam did. I hope you are not doing your own business. The success business is make the client happy, make them happy to spend money, and let the customers come back again and again, and let clients think all the money they spent worth it. Do you know what the consequences of this change? Players don’t want to spend money anymore to get the champions. They think all the money they spent all wasted. They don’t know what are they buying for. If there is no player spend money, what is the point of game balance? There will be no game.

BigPoppaCBONE

Lormif said:

BigPoppaCBONE said:

Lormif said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.

They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.

except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.

Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.

Lvernon15

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?

World Eater

Patchie93 said:

Midnite93 said:

I am getting flashbacks of 12.0 really badly

So 1 adjustment along with what 5 buffs is somehow comparable to 12.0? Considering no one currently knows the details of this adjustment that sounds like a pretty big stretch.

This community cries wolf at every change yet if all their decisions were that bad I'm pretty sure the game wouldn't still be around and popular 4+ years later

I believe it’s more that Kabam can sell something and then change what the product does, but I agree with the wait and see approach.... even if that didn’t work out well for 12.0 and the changes to strange and black widow.

GroundedWisdom

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?

So...because people spend higher Resources at the Top, they should only adjust Champs with End-Game in mind? No.

GroundedWisdom

I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

r3dy

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

And that should be analize based on the problems that are coming up, if the problem is damage of champions, then it is a lack of testing, like i said in other post, dev dont need to play the game in order to get data, they can run thousand of simulated situations, they own the code.

BigPoppaCBONE

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?

So...because people spend higher Resources at the Top, they should only adjust Champs with End-Game in mind? No.

Actually I'm nore inclined to believe that the knee-jerk reactions are viral video and human nature panic driven and the balance, for-the-good-of-the-game reactions are driven by mid-level forces like 4 star maxed out Cull's rampaging through content that doesn't have a slew of obnoxious nodes.

GroundedWisdom

BigPoppaCBONE said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?

So...because people spend higher Resources at the Top, they should only adjust Champs with End-Game in mind? No.

Actually I'm nore inclined to believe that the knee-jerk reactions are viral video and human nature panic driven and the balance, for-the-good-of-the-game reactions are driven by mid-level forces like 4 star maxed out Cull's rampaging through content that doesn't have a slew of obnoxious nodes.

I suppose a certain amount of it is hype-driven. Cull has had at least 2 previous issues, and people still went after him because of that elusive Damage. Lol.

DJSergy

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂

r3dy

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

And that should be analize based on the problems that are coming up, if the problem is damage of champions, then it is a lack of testing, like i said in other post, dev dont need to play the game in order to get data, they can run thousand of simulated situations, they own the code.

Testing isn't the same as when things go live.

if we are talking of a mathematical process, like calculating the damage, then it is the exactly the same, it do not depend on user skill, device or anythings outside the code of the game.

GroundedWisdom

DJSergy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂

They can't test it the same as we can.

Lvernon15

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Markg25 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

🙄 you play the game at a lower level ( most people are discussing cull and end game content

GroundedWisdom said:

Deadmaddy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Lvernon15 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

The issue with the data is it’s taken from everywhere including easier endgame content, it screws the numbers for the truly difficult content, and all the other balance changes have mostly been around endgame content, by using early content in the numbers it means the data doesn’t show how he performs in difficult content, which is what champs should be balanced around, I’m 100% sure that the data isn’t exclusively difficult content, and for balancing like this it should be, easier content can be done with any good champ

Champs should be balanced, and are balanced, with all areas in mind. Not End-Game alone. The game houses many different levels of progress, and doesn't revolve around one demographic. In terms of the data, the data shows what it does, and analyzing it takes into account the scale of where it's taken from. Bottom line is, if they say it's too much, it's too much. We can't argue that any more than we can argue the sky is yellow.

Show your profile to people. I don't think you understand or even play this game given how you're on 24*7 defending Kabam. People spent real world money on Cull and they have every right to demand it back even if Cull's damage is reduced by 1. Your opinion is not needed on every thread. Also you're most hated person in MCOC history.

I'm not posting my Profile. People have thrown it around enough regardless, and it has nothing to do with the topic. I've spent real world money on the game myself. Sorry, but none of us have the right to demand it back. We don't purchase for ownership. We rent permission to use their product. Everything, right down to the Champ people are arguing about, belongs to them.
Also, I've been aware of the latter fact for years. If you think it's news, it's not. I certainly haven't earned that status intentionally, or on purpose, but it also doesn't hurt my feelings either. It's a game. We're discussing a game, on a Forum, with people who are presumably adults. At least the majority. It's not my fault people choose to make it personal.

We don’t need to see whizz’s profile we all know he plays at a low level and he once bought a loot bag. 🥴

We're discussing changes to Cull. Not just the upper crust. Discussions aren't dominated by End-Game. You're also wrong about the low level and Loot Bag bit.

The discussion about the nerf should be around the endgame though, since that’s what’s affected the most, they said something along the lines of this nerf is for future content, future content is generally harder than current content, content like act 5 besides a few fights only really needs a hard hitter, but act 6 and beyond will require specific counters, and this nerf is apparently so future content doesn’t have to be designed to stop a couple champs, so yes not everyone here is on 6.2, but you can’t say your progress in the game has nothing to do with it since if you aren’t at the endgame level content you wouldn’t know how full is in said content

No. Conversations about End-Game revolve around End-Game. Conversations about changes to Champs revolve around the Champs. One Player demographic does not represent the entire game.

But they do represent where Kabam focused most balance changes, and where they are saying the problem with cull is, and also where many more people have cull, yes people from all around the game can be affected by changes to chanps, but in endgame a fairly small change, using a past example of aa, can cause huge changes in their viability compared to earlier game content, and the resources endgame players use are much rarer, now a player who has taken cull to 5-50 as one of their first and a player who has take. Him to 5-65 are in a similar boat currently where they’ve used rare resources on him, but people who haven’t spent t2a and t5b don’t realise how rare they are even at the endgame, and while something like t4cc may seem rare to them now in a few weeks or months the t4cc used will be insignificant, but t5b and other endgame resources don’t come in higher quantities and you can’t simply take other champs higher in the near future

I know there's this collective misconception that the game revolves around the Top and that section rules everything, but there's an entire game outside of that level. Changes to Champs affect Champs at any level, and looking at overall data isn't just focused on the Top.

Did you not read the part about resources and champ balance sensitivity?

So...because people spend higher Resources at the Top, they should only adjust Champs with End-Game in mind? No.

Not just higher resources, rarer resources, often real money and huge amounts of time, no they shouldn’t only be balanced around endgame but that should be a bigger part of it, and in this post they even said it was for future content

GroundedWisdom

cdubby_22 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?

The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.

RO53TT1

So I didn't read previous posts, I'm sure some of this has been said, but I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyway because the way you guys at kabam or kascam as alot of people have started calling u, but the way u treat us, YOUR CUSTOMERS, is just wrong, it borders on fraud. So to get the story strait, your company doesn't want to pay people to TEST out new champs to find out if they are to powerful or strait trash, so instead you release the champ, let YOUR CUSTOMERS test them for you, wait a few months, start watching youtube videos and decide weather the champ is good or not then if they are good you decide, MONTHS LATER I might add, that ur gonna weaken the champ because he's to good and people are getting thru the harder content to easily and since you've already gotten there money and/or units for the champion, but now your not getting enough money/units out of the harder content you somehow feel justified in doing this and yet you guys act offended when people ask for rank down tickets, alot of those people also uses awakening gems and we all know how hard those are to come by, 5* AG especially. Ok I will admit people ask for rank down tickets way to often, but do you blame them, these type of fraudstuff you guys are committing are becoming more common so for once in your lives pretend ur us, THE CUSTOMER, see how you would feel. Also if this is where we are going then can i rank up a champ and if that champ isn't as good as I was expecting can i get my resources back, yeah didn't think so. To paraphrase someone from your company just recently "summoners should be more selective on the champions they rank up and use resources on" well news flash WE DO, we wait for the youtubes or what u call quality control, to let us know if a champ is good or not and then IN GOOD FAITH we act accordingly, we rank up a champ expecting the champ will be as good as it was on the youtube video, AGAIN IN GOD FAITH, then you guys decide to make the champ weaker, well u can't have it both ways, either do ur own testing, full testing not betas summoners do for you, and fix the problem before it gets to us or deal with what you and your company release, u either get the money when the champ is released or you get the money from harder content, you can't have both and call yourself Profesional, ethical and transparent and be honest it boils down to the dollars of it all, that's fine your a for profit company but you guys need to start to remember who pays that money, who your customers are and how you treat them. It's time to do some restructuring at kabam or you may not be around because your gonna alienate ur own customers to the point they walk away, saddest part is WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU CARE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

BigPoppaCBONE

GroundedWisdom said:

DJSergy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂

They can't test it the same as we can.

They can test it better than we can.

GroundedWisdom

BigPoppaCBONE said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DJSergy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Beyond00_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.

I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.

Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing

It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.

quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design

They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.

So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂

They can't test it the same as we can.

They can test it better than we can.

No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?