**UPDATE - iPAD STUCK FLICKERING SCREEN**
The 47.0.1 hotfix to address the issue of freezing & flashing lights on loading screens when trying to enter a fight, along with other smaller issues, is now ready to be downloaded through the App Store on IOS.
More information here.

Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • Incitatus666Incitatus666 Member Posts: 189 ★
    What is the point of the CCP if champs will be changed? I am very very hesitant to purchase Featured crystals, probably will never if this policy stays.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Harry_hzy said:

    Lormif said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    Lormif said:

    Nick_Caine_32 said:

    Lormif said:

    Indrick781 said:

    If you stop responding to those that derail threads, they won't be able to derail them. I have them on ignore and threads are so much easier to get through.

    Always easier to get through threads when you remove those that disagree with you under the auspice of "derailing", generally though it is people like you who start the derailing, as you just did.
    You have 3025 posts and over 4.6k dislikes since that feature rolled out. You're one of the two they are referring to in this post who have spammed over 10% of the total comments. You're pretty openly argumentative and combative, often engaging negatively with those who don't invoke you first or at all. You've been called on this on other posts, usually when there's a big controversy like this one, for pushing your agenda and viewpoint to the point where a moderator needs to step in. It's pretty tiresome to read to be honest, and yet here we are again with the same issue. I see 3-4 defenders of this issue commenting, and literally the Japam guy posted the same reply, sometimes in all caps, multiple times and pages on here.

    You don't agree with those upset. Got it. At this point though, what point are you trying to make that hasn't already been said?
    Actually my posts were high before the feature was rolled out. Moderators tend to step in for other people in reply to me, I have only had one warning, because I dont insult or derail. My posts are generally on topic until someone else attacks me. Also dislikes are a popularity contest, it has no bearing on the content of the message, therefore I dont really care about them. Also I where do you see what percentage of posts someone has made on a thread, that would be interesting to see.
    You and groundedwisdom have so made a pattern of this on these types of posts, someone on reddit counted every single comment on this thread and counted up how many you and GW made. That's the percent. It's probably still climbing.

    You can tell yourself that disagrees don't matter, but isn't that a bit strange since you're so invested in writing on this forum every day? If you don't care about other's opinions (hitting a disagree button on your posts or direct comments) why post here at all? Isn't that the point, to see if others agree with you or not?

    Or are you really that stubborn that you can tell yourself your opinion is correct in every instance, to the point where you needed to reply over 10% of a 1000+ commented thread - but you openly say you don't think disagree totals matter? LOL that seems strange to me.

    If you're having others make video comments and reddit posts about your comments on this forum, if I were in your shoes, I would maybe take a look at what I'm doing and saying. So I'll ask again: even if you don't believe in disagreement with your posts, after admitting that's what you think a discussion means, what is the point you haven't already made here? If you continue posting the same thing, is it not by the very definition you laid out attacking other users for sharing theirs? Being purposefully combative just to prove them wrong?

    Is that really your job? And who appointed you? What purpose are you serving by continuing to push it?
    if disagrees mattered to me then I would post in agreement with people. I post to share knowledge, not be apart of high school like popularity contests.

    My opinion is not correct in every instance, but my logic is generally, not always, pretty good. And no, it is not attacking other users for sharing their opinin, it is attacking their statements, which is how discussions are supposed to work. If you cannot reply to people without being considered attacking them then you could not have a discussion.
    To be honest, your logic is very strange. You think game balance is everything, so for the game balance, kabam can do anything, all the player who worsted lots of money should be very happy what kabam did. I hope you are not doing your own business. The success business is make the client happy, make them happy to spend money, and let the customers come back again and again, and let clients think all the money they spent worth it. Do you know what the consequences of this change? Players don’t want to spend money anymore to get the champions. They think all the money they spent all wasted. They don’t know what are they buying for. If there is no player spend money, what is the point of game balance? There will be no game.
    I never said it was everything, I said it is more important than individual purchases, because without it then their individual purchases suffer, particularly on the backend. You cannot make the client happy at the expense of long term suitability of the game. 12.0 is a perfect example of this. They should have nered willpower a long time before that, but they did not, it started to impact the game particularly on the back end, but also with the creation of new content so they had to have a massive nerf, which should have been a bunch of smaller nerfs. If you dont understand my reasoning please ask, dont assume.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Member Posts: 11,598 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
  • ATLIEN06ATLIEN06 Member Posts: 2 ★
    This isn’t fair at all!! I just ranked up my 6 star Cull Obsidian to rank 2 a week ago and I spent over $200 on his cavalier crystals
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Member Posts: 11,598 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    Not for cull, the announcement was made after all his sales and arenas and yes I know they said he was added to the basic due to the post being late, but when the most money was spent trying to get him was when nobody knew, I think you’re referring to from now to the actual nerf, which I wasn’t
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Member Posts: 2,391 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    That depends on what you're looking for. If you want live server player data, then actual players will be better than some people at the office installing the game on their personal devices. If you want to know the absolute heights of damage that a champ is capable of within the engine to make sure your threshold isn't breached, players can't do that.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    edited September 2019
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
  • ATLIEN06ATLIEN06 Member Posts: 2 ★
    no need for me playing this bloody game anymore if these changes happen to cull obsidian. I’ve used too much of my resources to take my 6* to rank 2. I would need my refund back.
  • jdyke23jdyke23 Member Posts: 215 ★
    I’ve pumped a tonne of sig stones into mine and all sorts just for his damage output and his block considering he uses a door is just stupidly poor and he’s a potion drinker because he takes that much damage against high PI champs that I vary rarely use him in end game content only monthly content and map 5. He doesn’t need a change at all
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Member Posts: 2,391 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
  • RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Member Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    DJSergy said:

    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    It’s a late notice though. They started seen YouTube videos of Cull damage the next day he was released, why wait 3 months??? To “collect data”???? Or to milk the whales from fgmc?????
    Pretty similar to my point in the thread I just made about changing the champ release schedule. Basically add a safety net. It won't catch everything but it will catch a number of the things we've seen lately (Looking at you Nick Fury).

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/159130/better-way-to-release-and-test-champs
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Lvernon15 said:

    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    DJSergy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    They can't test for every possible outcome. As much as people like to default to saying they don't test, they do. Testing won't stop problems from coming up.
    So they couldn’t test Cull DAMAGE output (the single most important stat in the game) and nerf it if it was too much before the release???? 😂
    They can't test it the same as we can.
    They can test it better than we can.
    No. Actually, they can't. Did you read Miike's comment about people running around the office not even being close to thousands of us on a server that's live with the game data?
    Maybe they can’t test as well as us but if they can’t test the damage of a very simple champion such as cull then something is wrong, it took players a few minutes to find out how hard he hits, and if they knew that at release but didn’t realise it would cause future problems (which I still don’t see) and they have to nerf him then it shouldn’t be without notice and after everyone has spent hard earned resources on him
    It isnt without notice, you have 3 months notice.
    Not for cull, the announcement was made after all his sales and arenas and yes I know they said he was added to the basic due to the post being late, but when the most money was spent trying to get him was when nobody knew, I think you’re referring to from now to the actual nerf, which I wasn’t
    Then you need to define what you mean by "notice". notice generally mans you have knowledge before the change, not before other independent factors, as they cannot always know things before sales.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
    Except no game company that I have ever heard of is successful solely with testers, so therefore if what you claimed would work it would have to be specialized knowledge of uncanny insight. I have not met a single MMO company who has not normalized all asspects of the games that goes by without changing things.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
    Why wont you answer the question. The moment that they noticed the crazy damage and that it needed to be compaired to the other champs they obviously said nothing. During this period they looking into data, they continued to sell us the crystal during this period of time knowing that what ever outcome of their findings could result in the champion being nerfed. Do you think that is ethical its a yes or no question.
    You're asking me to comment on the accusation that they willfully and knowingly sold something that was defective, in order to deceive people. I'm not commenting on fallacies.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    It's not Fraud.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
    Why wont you answer the question. The moment that they noticed the crazy damage and that it needed to be compaired to the other champs they obviously said nothing. During this period they looking into data, they continued to sell us the crystal during this period of time knowing that what ever outcome of their findings could result in the champion being nerfed. Do you think that is ethical its a yes or no question.
    You're asking me to comment on the accusation that they willfully and knowingly sold something that was defective, in order to deceive people. I'm not commenting on fallacies.
    No I am not. The champion is under a review, at some point during this review they noticed that Culls damage was insane and decided that it needed to be investigated. They started to do their due diligence knowing that the outcome of their research could lead into nerfing the champion. During that time they continued to sell and promote the champion without telling us they was a potential investigation going on that could lead to him getting nerfed. I am asking a very simple question is that an ethical business practice in your eyes.
    Except that is not entirely accurate. For one you have to understand that ALL aspects of the game are under continuous review. they dont stop reviewing some aspect of the game at some magical point in time after it has been released.

    In addition to this they have stated that all new champions would be under review.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Member Posts: 2,391 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
    Except no game company that I have ever heard of is successful solely with testers, so therefore if what you claimed would work it would have to be specialized knowledge of uncanny insight. I have not met a single MMO company who has not normalized all asspects of the games that goes by without changing things.
    I never said that with only internal testing a company would solve every problem that will or could ever come up. That's nonsense.
    I also never said that a company should never have to or want to change anything in their product. That's nonsense too.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
    Why wont you answer the question. The moment that they noticed the crazy damage and that it needed to be compaired to the other champs they obviously said nothing. During this period they looking into data, they continued to sell us the crystal during this period of time knowing that what ever outcome of their findings could result in the champion being nerfed. Do you think that is ethical its a yes or no question.
    You're asking me to comment on the accusation that they willfully and knowingly sold something that was defective, in order to deceive people. I'm not commenting on fallacies.
    No I am not. The champion is under a review, at some point during this review they noticed that Culls damage was insane and decided that it needed to be investigated. They started to do their due diligence knowing that the outcome of their research could lead into nerfing the champion. During that time they continued to sell and promote the champion without telling us they was a potential investigation going on that could lead to him getting nerfed. I am asking a very simple question is that an ethical business practice in your eyes.
    Bug 1 happened and they notified us. Bug 2 happened, and they notified us. Now they're letting us know 3 months in advance about this. How much notice would you like?
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    BigPoppaCBONE said:

    Lormif said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    r3dy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
    They should have more than an idea or they're doing it wrong. For instance, they should know exactly how many heavies Cull can get off in a 3 minute period. Any more than that and something is wrong with the engine. Based on that, they can calculate the maximum number of armor breaks he can apply without enhancement over that period. Using that information and the relevant inputs, they would be able to transform and evaluate that damage calculation under a wide variety of conditions automatically and have them flagged when above or below certain values.

    Statistical relevancy and randomized sampling plans aren't necessary. Why would they be? If the calculations have been through the validation and verification process it would be a wasted effort to repeat testing pointlessly. After that any unexpected outcome would be a bug.
    except what you just described is base interactions with the game engine, not interactions with the nodes or how the players are using them.
    Many Node interactions would just be additional inputs. Not a big deal. If they were the kind that absolutely needed in-hand testing, then you would do that before going live. Another reason why playtesting is important before going live. If your playtesters aren't good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what players are capable of, you need better ones. Like playing Quake-style, even if your testers aren't good enough to do it, they should be smart enough to realize that it can be done and articulate that.
    Many but not all. here is the thing though, if you are so sure of this why dont you get intot he game buisness, the MMO game buisness is plague with balance nerfs and upgrades. If you have insight and knowledge that no one else in the buis has then you can make a killing.
    I haven't said anything requiring specialized knowledge or uncanny insight. Sad if a working company putting out an active game needed me to break them off this basic scheme.
    Except no game company that I have ever heard of is successful solely with testers, so therefore if what you claimed would work it would have to be specialized knowledge of uncanny insight. I have not met a single MMO company who has not normalized all asspects of the games that goes by without changing things.
    I never said that with only internal testing a company would solve every problem that will or could ever come up. That's nonsense.
    I also never said that a company should never have to or want to change anything in their product. That's nonsense too.
    You said the playtest team should be good enough or inventive enough to closely replicate or articulate to the team what the players are capable of. If that was true then they would not release champs that come out as needing a nerf based on the communities play.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    Do you know when they made the decision? Do you know how long they've been sitting on the data? No. The only evidence we have is a comment a week ago about an incoming Announcement on Maw, and the conjecture that they sold it knowing it was changing. Memories of Strange conjecture.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    Lormif said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    cdubby_22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I mean, the argument is moot because if a Champ is doing too much or too little, they're most likely seeing it in the upper crust regardless. They're already looking there. I'm just saying looking at all data means looking at all data. Fundamentally I don't agree they should isolate it to one demographic unless it's on something at that demographic alone. Champs are at every level.

    Do you believe that it is ethical that once they identify a potential issue and start to review it that they continue to sell that champions featured crystal without letting the community know they are investigating a potential issue that could get the champion nerfed?
    The Champs are released into circulation. That's how the game works. They can't just take them back or put them in quarantine.
    I didnt say is it ethical to sell it, I asked you if its ethical to sell us something without telling us its under investigation? you didnt answer the question.
    Is it ethical? It's their product. They're not selling anything for ownership.
    Thus far, they've been upfront about the issues. There was one bug that was fixed. That led to another bug that made his Damage insane, and they responded to that quite quickly. This is the result of periodical rebalances and they already said they were coming. Supposedly with HT and Ann., but people couldn't let Maw go, so here we are. Not that I blame people. If it needs to be rebalanced, it needs to be done.
    Why wont you answer the question. The moment that they noticed the crazy damage and that it needed to be compaired to the other champs they obviously said nothing. During this period they looking into data, they continued to sell us the crystal during this period of time knowing that what ever outcome of their findings could result in the champion being nerfed. Do you think that is ethical its a yes or no question.
    You're asking me to comment on the accusation that they willfully and knowingly sold something that was defective, in order to deceive people. I'm not commenting on fallacies.
    No I am not. The champion is under a review, at some point during this review they noticed that Culls damage was insane and decided that it needed to be investigated. They started to do their due diligence knowing that the outcome of their research could lead into nerfing the champion. During that time they continued to sell and promote the champion without telling us they was a potential investigation going on that could lead to him getting nerfed. I am asking a very simple question is that an ethical business practice in your eyes.
    Except that is not entirely accurate. For one you have to understand that ALL aspects of the game are under continuous review. they dont stop reviewing some aspect of the game at some magical point in time after it has been released.

    In addition to this they have stated that all new champions would be under review.
    You are dodging the question as well. At some point during the review they started to question is that to much damage, by their own words his damage was way higher than other high dealing damage champs across multiple modes of the game. In order to make that statement they would have had to test and compare, something you have pointed out takes a very long time, during this period of time when they knew there was a potential problem a specific issue that they had narrowed down and decided to investigate on, they continued to sell and promote the crystal without letting us know. You both are avoiding a simple question is that ethical?
    I cannot answer a question that is based on a faulty premise. If your premise is untrue then your question of if said premise is ethical or not cannot be answered. In order to answer the ethical nature of said event I would need to know exactly when and who knew what, and how. Is the crystal offers automatic? did the game team know before hand? did they come to the conclusion the day they made the announcement or not. without knowledge of these and other questions you cannot answer your question, and we do not have those answers. You may be willing to place the cart before the horse, I am not.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    cdubby_22 said:

    By the way the answer is no, you cannot answer a simple question because if you say it is, it would make you as shameful as they are. Its a horrible, unethical business model that we allow to continue as a paying customer. Until we say no more it will continue to happen. I cant do this any more today, its exhausting, they have killed my love for this game. Hope you two have a great day. (Mike drop....you cant answer the question because you know everyone else in this chat is right)

    Your question was not simple. You ask us to evaluate data that we do not have to come to a conclusion based on said data.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    No. The answer is it IS ethical. It's their product, their property, and their responsibility to keep it alive and well. So if something needs to be resolved, that takes priority. However, pointing that out will just lead to more argument because there's an accusation and an assumption there, so I decided to overlook the question.
  • LormifLormif Member Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    No. The answer is it IS ethical. It's their product, their property, and their responsibility to keep it alive and well. So if something needs to be resolved, that takes priority. However, pointing that out will just lead to more argument because there's an accusation and an assumption there, so I decided to overlook the question.

    That answer is just as faulty as his. If the game team did what he claims they did then it would be unethical, it would be a dictionary bait and switch which is illegal under most laws despite a ToS. The problem is he cannot prove his claim, but the same can be said for you.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,520 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    No. The answer is it IS ethical. It's their product, their property, and their responsibility to keep it alive and well. So if something needs to be resolved, that takes priority. However, pointing that out will just lead to more argument because there's an accusation and an assumption there, so I decided to overlook the question.

    That answer is just as faulty as his. If the game team did what he claims they did then it would be unethical, it would be a dictionary bait and switch which is illegal under most laws despite a ToS. The problem is he cannot prove his claim, but the same can be said for you.
    I meant the situation we have now is ethical. Not what he's implying. There's a reason I pointed out I don't respond to fallacies. ;)
This discussion has been closed.