Alright everybody, thanks for your patience. I come with news!
After a bunch of testing and conversations, we're going to be reverting the changes to Matchmaking. The goal is to have that ready for the next run of Red Goblin on Monday. This will not affect the changes to AI, which have been pretty popular.
There is a chance that the changes will not be ready for Monday, though those chances are slim.
Once again, thank you for your patience as we worked to address this.
Arena fights are now taking way too long! Way longer than before! And the match ups are much worse too! Was the goal of these changes to make it so less people do the arenas? I know that is not the stated goal, but it sure feels like it could have been, based upon the results of the changes!
What am I missing here? I love these fights and the new matchmaking. With the new AI these deathmatches are actually easier, because these high PI teams almost always come with suicide mastery. I got these matches now and they are easy kills most of the time. A few fights take some more work but most of them I literally just watch them kill themselves with recoil. Too bad it is reverting to the old way.
This is not "a major improvement for all players". At least not with regards to how it impacts the progression rate of some players.
The Arena has, and continues to be, content that favors specific player groups over others. These changes don't really change that, they only change which groups are favored.
Before this change, it favored players with wider rosters of Champions at medium or higher Rank, at specific Star ratings for each Arena, and who better understood the matchmaking system (and game system on many other levels). Combined with lots of time and/or use of Units and Boosts.
Now with this change, it changes at least the part of the above criteria from "wider rosters of Champions at medium or higher Rank" to "wider rosters of Champions at higher Rank". It gets rid of the practical usefulness of Champions at medium rank. It kills that "Infinite Streak" method.
I don't know if the players who "better the matchmaking system (and game system on many other levels)" will cease to be a factor in improving Arena performance. Often an awareness of stats and system configuration of a game will yield boosted results. And in a game like MCOC that has complicated number and variable interactions, coupled with limited formal disclosure or tools, it seems especially prone to "in the know" players continuing to get (stacked across different parameters) boosted results.
The recent change will hurt some players, and help other players. Just as the previous version hurt some players, and helped other players.
It is unfortunate that this change also punishes players who spent resources to create a roster for Arena's previous format ("Infinite Streak", etc.). That represents a massive investment of resources into a largely now worthless and useless roster configuration. This positions those players at a clear disadvantage for current content. It also reinforces the notion that you can't rely on game devs to keep any mode's format intact (Arena, Dungeons/Incursions, etc.). This "rely on" issue "complicates" longterm planning for roster development, and brand identity and brand image.
It's a game designer conundrum in how to handle older, "bad" content, that materially affects (or would materially affect if changed) players. If designers leave it in the game as is, it remains bad content. But if designers change it, then they are creating instability in their game in something players have long relied on as a standard. Usually, the longer the content has been left unchanged, and the more that content has (or would have if changed) an impact on players, it's better to just leave the content alone and not change it. Better to leave in old bad content, than overhaul it and then get a new game that plays so different that either (1) players get "screwed" by not being configured for the new game, or (2) the new game doesn't feel like the game players know and they no longer desire to play it at the same level.
In finance, they call "style drift" when you change things enough that it's really a new thing. This is something the game dev industry would be wise to keep track of as a concept as well. Know if they're drifting or potentially drifting, weigh the projected costs and benefits of that. One site I referenced sated, "the strongest voice you can give your product is a well-defined and consistently communicated brand identity." I wouldn't go that far, but brand identity can have its role.
I know this is a tough issue for game devs to juggle. Especially when in a game like MCOC, the players have ASKED for "changes" to the game. And then the devs have to wrestle with what the players think they want vs. what the players will freak out at having changed... until the weather changes... and then the players (and devs) react (or think) a different way. (I've been there)
Maybe it's regarded as an improvement simply because it removes a layer of non-intuitive awareness of stats and system configuration.
That depends on which players fit into the "new to the Arena" demographic. And how these changes end up affecting players performance and participation over time. Is that just a subset of the players doing "Featured 3-Star", "Summoner Trials", and "Quickmatch"? Is it players that have only been playing the game for a certain duration of time? Or only players that have only played less than a certain number of Arena matches?
Without clarification of what defines this demographic, it just becomes a guessing game for me to figure out what it specifically references. So please excuse me if I address the wrong groups below in my guesses. I am happy to change my analysis to a more accurate demographic with further clarification.
I think the adding of a 3-Star at Tier 10 of the Milestone Rewards for the Featured 3-Star Arena "could" likely improve the game for some players. A player can grind less total points to get it, and there is no fixed limit on what % of players can achieve it. "Milestone Rewards" are not mutually exclusive and are not based on performance relative to others.
But how hard is it for a "new player" to build up points?
Any new player that didn't have the skill or roster to keep a winning streak going at 3+ will likely not see any change in their performance.
Any new player that has the skill or roster to keep a winning streak going at 3+ will likely see an increase or drop in their performance, based on their roster having more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena. So, new players with the high skill or high spend to get "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena" will increase performance. New players with the non-high skill or non-high spend to get "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena" will decrease performance (if they can no longer brute force through a handful of hard matches, to get to matches they can use weaker Champions effectively on).
In the area of "Rank Rewards", these rewards are mutually exclusive and are based on performance relative to others.
It's worth noting that longtime players will have (or can much more easily get) "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level" for the lower Star Arenas. So longtime players will be able to much more easily outscore most new players, even more than before the change. The only real limit on longtime players dominating the lower Star Arenas for "Rank Rewards", is if those players choose either to skip the content or to not pursue much higher scoring in those Arenas.
So we're looking at "Rank Rewards" likely being dominated by longtime players who don't blow off the content, and new players with stacked rosters.
I’m sorry but these recent changes are bad for the game. There is zero scenario here where these are treated as fun scenarios, and most can be deathmatches.
Why were these changes made? To annoy progressing players? To annoy veterans?
There was nothing wrong with the infinite streak in the arena.
Right, i normally dont expect much because i am free to play here, but aboit arena it feels, because i know people who invest hours and hours in arena. They have ranked up maximum champs for arena purpose. So they deserve infinity streak and some better rewards. I am playing arena since last 2 years and 90% of the time i never lose streak but in 2 days i lost streaks 4 to 5 times. May be i am noob.
Well that was quick... was able to reach streak 29 starting r1 5* and upward. Sure it was hard, but it was doable as hell because the AI throw their specials more now. Yeah lots of deathsquad, but I rather have them that way with the new arena changes if it gives a player more points to finish milestones faster then zero complaining.
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
There’s stil time to improve and deadscard for me was only because there doesn’t trow sp now there will.
I might be in the minority, but I do like that a whole team of low PI R4 5* or R1 6*’s generates a fight which is 2x stronger. It allows people to practice fights were strength is no in their favor.
It might be that the presence of accounts with 3+ r3 6*’s has altered the algorithm again. However, is the PI ratio of 2:1 off when the player does 3@ r3 5*’s (IE 15k-18k VS 30k-36k)? I haven’t tried a full tilt of r3 5*’s yet.
While the fights are harder and longer, if you are skilled to keep the streak alive, the infinite streak is not dead.
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
I don’t believe it takes that much time to kill the AI. They’re throwing their powers after powers. I find the new arena change is great for two reasons.
1: they’re throwing their powers more and I was able to start from the bottom by using r1 5* champions to the top r5 5* champions by taking the advantage of the filter button accessible to quickly start next fight.
2: lots of deathsquad for sure, but the difference is that they no longer goes defensive mode and wait for an sp3. It raise the experience to hone your skills when they’re aggressive and even if they’re having huge armor and health pool, it doesn’t have to be that difficult as they’re still throwing their powers after powers making it manageable to take the full advantage of your whole collection.
Are you telling me they’re too annoying with their huge armor and health pool forcing you to tap the screen more than necessary because it takes too long time when clearly they’re throwing their specials after specials while giving you lots of points to faster finish the milestones??? Come on... I find this to be good idea because it will force my skills to be more honed and in a long run they’re nothing of an difficult to defeat.
Arena fights are now taking way too long! Way longer than before! And the match ups are much worse too! Was the goal of these changes to make it so less people do the arenas? I know that is not the stated goal, but it sure feels like it could have been, based upon the results of the changes!
What am I missing here? I love these fights and the new matchmaking. With the new AI these deathmatches are actually easier, because these high PI teams almost always come with suicide mastery. I got these matches now and they are easy kills most of the time. A few fights take some more work but most of them I literally just watch them kill themselves with recoil. Too bad it is reverting to the old way.
You're not wrong. What you are missing is that people that grind arena don't want to keep facing manageable death matches.
I might be in the minority, but I do like that a whole team of low PI R4 5* or R1 6*’s generates a fight which is 2x stronger. It allows people to practice fights were strength is no in their favor.
It might be that the presence of accounts with 3+ r3 6*’s has altered the algorithm again. However, is the PI ratio of 2:1 off when the player does 3@ r3 5*’s (IE 15k-18k VS 30k-36k)? I haven’t tried a full tilt of r3 5*’s yet.
While the fights are harder and longer, if you are skilled to keep the streak alive, the infinite streak is not dead.
If you do agree that the fights are harder and longer, then you should also know that's not what arenas are for. Do you know how much time consuming that becomes? For people like me who can only play for 2 hours (which while you may think is not a lot, is actually a LOT) arenas have become practically useless
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
The counter argument is that people who would leisurely play just for lower tier prizes wasn’t the intent of the change. You could still put in the point for 11-30% and in reasonable time.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
I might be in the minority, but I do like that a whole team of low PI R4 5* or R1 6*’s generates a fight which is 2x stronger. It allows people to practice fights were strength is no in their favor.
It might be that the presence of accounts with 3+ r3 6*’s has altered the algorithm again. However, is the PI ratio of 2:1 off when the player does 3@ r3 5*’s (IE 15k-18k VS 30k-36k)? I haven’t tried a full tilt of r3 5*’s yet.
While the fights are harder and longer, if you are skilled to keep the streak alive, the infinite streak is not dead.
If you do agree that the fights are harder and longer, then you should also know that's not what arenas are for. Do you know how much time consuming that becomes? For people like me who can only play for 2 hours (which while you may think is not a lot, is actually a LOT) arenas have become practically useless
1st, yes I do know... I have been a drinker in the arenas for 5 years... I have been one of the people who put in 8+ hours for a 70-90 million score. If anyone knows it is me...
I have no pity for your “2 hours”... you don’t want to put in the time, you do not deserve the awards. Plain and simple.
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
The counter argument is that people who would leisurely play just for lower tier prizes wasn’t the intent of the change. You could still put in the point for 11-30% and in reasonable time.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
So you're saying we should grind away our life, and some people not even attempt arenas now because of lack of roster or will to put in that much time. Not even to get the basic units?
You're not the only one who's been grinding for years, and while you say that the changes reduces the cutoff for the points, that doesn't make a difference in the slightest because people nevertheless will be aiming just as high for the champ.
I swear because of some people this game is starting to feel like full time work shifts rather than a time to enjoy in between breaks now.
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
The counter argument is that people who would leisurely play just for lower tier prizes wasn’t the intent of the change. You could still put in the point for 11-30% and in reasonable time.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
I actually have a robust 30 r5/r2 roster and a total of 30 6 stars. My problem is actually called 'time' which needs to be kept at a minimum due to work and family. With the previous arena, 1h per day to get my milestones and decent rank was within reason. I have 0 intention to use my entire lower tier roster. I sometimes even neglect my r4 5 stars for lack of time. So, anything above 1h a day was not worth my time. I believe i represent the majority of dedicated players. The 1% who grind through their entire teams for rank rewards do not represent the majority of players.and perhaps, they are the only ones who might enjoy the change that is about to be rolled back.
Everyone keeps saying “death squads”. These are not true death squads... a team of below r3 5*’s would pull an opponent R2-R3 6*’s.... meaning 15k and below PI was pulling a match of 45-55k... this was 3x or greater the PI and was a death squad.
This was a byproduct of the algorithm... I did a video on this back in Jan last year on YouTube. I foresaw the lift of the death squad when R3 6*s were released and foretold it back then.
These aren’t even remotely close to death squads. Kabam limited them to 2x the PI as players complained about not being able to use 4*’s and low ranking 5’s... in fixing the death squad issue, the also fixed the bug that was causing them and allowing an easy infinite streak at the higher rankings. Basically, they made 4* and low rank 5* viable again by lowering the max difficulty of the fight. However, in doing this, it broadened the ability for the algorithm to find matches within scope of the 2x maximum at a team pi of 25-28k as with the number of players with 3+ R3 6*’s means there are qualifying matches.
It is still not a “death match” as the skill to beat them is not that much greater. Just my opinion.
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
The counter argument is that people who would leisurely play just for lower tier prizes wasn’t the intent of the change. You could still put in the point for 11-30% and in reasonable time.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
So you're saying we should grind away our life, and some people not even attempt arenas now because of lack of roster or will to put in that much time. Not even to get the basic units?
You're not the only one who's been grinding for years, and while you say that the changes reduces the cutoff for the points, that doesn't make a difference in the slightest because people nevertheless will be aiming just as high for the champ.
I swear because of some people this game is starting to feel like full time work shifts rather than a time to enjoy in between breaks now.
No, you are being hyperbolic and antidotal with your position. Take the “personal” out of your argument and reread.
You are literally complaining it will take you 20-30 minutes more. If that is too much, don’t do it. Then in kind, if you don’t get the rewards, that is your choice.
You choose your quality of “life” over a game. Good for you, but a fake shouldn’t have to be made to fit in your life when there are those having to put in 8+ hours to compete.
I am sorry, but the increase in the top pool and the difficulty of matches would drop the score to where you wouldn’t need to put in 8+ hours a day to get a featured champ. It might be able to be done in 4-6...
Thus allowing others to have more of a life and increase the number of people willing to grind for a champ, expand the pool and lower the score needed for 11-30%.
Your argument is about your little corner of the game and your life... not the overall mechanics of how the game works or how the changes would impact arena over time. Sorry, just my opinion.
Alright everybody, thanks for your patience. I come with news!
After a bunch of testing and conversations, we're going to be reverting the changes to Matchmaking. The goal is to have that ready for the next run of Red Goblin on Monday. This will not affect the changes to AI, which have been pretty popular.
There is a chance that the changes will not be ready for Monday, though those chances are slim.
Once again, thank you for your patience as we worked to address this.
This week, we rolled a change to matchmaking in Arenas with the intention of making Arenas more manageable by reducing the number of deathmatches that Summoners ran into. This had the unfortunate knock-on of killing the "Infinite Streak" that players have come to rely on. This was not our intention.
We will be reverting the changes to matchmaking on Sunday, October 11th before the second run of the Red Goblin arena. The changes to AI will remain.
Thank you all for your patience as we worked to fix this issue.
MCOC Team,
Sorry the change became an issue. Thank you for your efforts in reviewing Arena mode, thinking about possible changes to improve it, communicating your thoughts, and the work you put into trying to make the improvements happen. This spirit, ideas, and effort are really great to see, and I hope you continue with this outlook for the game and the community.
I also really appreciate your process toward reacting to input from the community reaction. And your work to try to figure what solution would work for the game and community.
Even if this recent change is not going to stay, I think it's really neat to see and be able to try these changes as a player. Thank you. And maybe this change was just "too fast, too soon" for some players to really get familiar with and feel out if they prefer it or not (I know I have not fully tested it out).
Hopefully we'll see you explore more custom Arena types in the future. Maybe as alternate (additional) Arenas like the "Punishing Arena" currently is. This type of "mode variation sampling" (and testing) option can be interesting for players and devs (as long as you don't put any big rewards on them that player flip out over).
I actually preferred the changes. Yes you get harder match ups in general after a certain point, but they were still easily beatable, and now if you go any lower than R3s again.. death matches will be back.. whereas with the changes I was going all the way through my 5*s and most my 4*s..
At least AI isn't getting changed back. Roll on people crying about 4x death matches again starting next week.
I'll tell you where you're wrong. Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run. It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute. I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
The counter argument is that people who would leisurely play just for lower tier prizes wasn’t the intent of the change. You could still put in the point for 11-30% and in reasonable time.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
I actually have a robust 30 r5/r2 roster and a total of 30 6 stars. My problem is actually called 'time' which needs to be kept at a minimum due to work and family. With the previous arena, 1h per day to get my milestones and decent rank was within reason. I have 0 intention to use my entire lower tier roster. I sometimes even neglect my r4 5 stars for lack of time. So, anything above 1h a day was not worth my time. I believe i represent the majority of dedicated players. The 1% who grind through their entire teams for rank rewards do not represent the majority of players.and perhaps, they are the only ones who might enjoy the change that is about to be rolled back.
Stop bringing the antidotal when you really need are facts and an overall understanding of what the changes are intended to do and how the arena works by in large.
Your argument is “time”... but you are talking to someone who knows what it means to juggle family, a full time job and arena... I also know what it takes to put up scores to get a champ, or skate at 1-10% or 11-30%
I will put 4-5 hrs of work just get too 10% with a score of 17 million... your problem is more roster related and less time related to be honest.
Welcome to the big leagues, kid! You are talking with someone who knows all to well what it takes to rank and has been doing it for 5+ years in the game. Got most all of my 4* from the featured and basic when that was all we had. Been grinding ever since.
Arena is a grind for people who want the units, BCs and crystal shards to improve their resources stash. So to achieve their goals it means putting up a couple hundred, to a few hundred fights or so. That’s takes a fair few hours each day over 3 days for each round. We don’t need arena to be anymore of a lengthier grind than it already is. The quality of life differences these latest changes bring to the table, for the player, means our fights are taking a lot longer than before the changes we made. Yes some elements of the changes are better, the defender AI for example, but the matchmaking function has been screwed up. pitting my r4 5*s and r1 6*s against the same 12 or so r3 6*s makes for very boring and long winded fights once you’re at around 18-20+ streak. When people want to just smash out their grind as quickly as possible, this system now prevents that and making the arena more laborious. Not exactly a ‘fun game mode’ at the moment. Hopefully the proposed changes will address the matchmaking element to prevent players spending way too much time in the arena than is necessary.
So disappointed in the community. Decided to see if I could use r1 without streak formula affecting and it works wonder. Now I can fully rack in more points to finish the milestones faster and go back to my life. Because of you folks that cry because of the “death squad” is too much for you too handle because the amount of times it takes to kill it is a joke when they are throwing their powers after powers. Shame on you community for not being willing to adapt and learn. Kabam just wanted to do that would be great for us and that is testing our skills and evolve it more.
Comments
Loki / Carnage / Electro = Beyond-God Tier confirmed
You guys really love dropping the ball, smh
Thanks a lot.
The Arena has, and continues to be, content that favors specific player groups over others. These changes don't really change that, they only change which groups are favored.
Before this change, it favored players with wider rosters of Champions at medium or higher Rank, at specific Star ratings for each Arena, and who better understood the matchmaking system (and game system on many other levels). Combined with lots of time and/or use of Units and Boosts.
Now with this change, it changes at least the part of the above criteria from "wider rosters of Champions at medium or higher Rank" to "wider rosters of Champions at higher Rank". It gets rid of the practical usefulness of Champions at medium rank. It kills that "Infinite Streak" method.
I don't know if the players who "better the matchmaking system (and game system on many other levels)" will cease to be a factor in improving Arena performance. Often an awareness of stats and system configuration of a game will yield boosted results. And in a game like MCOC that has complicated number and variable interactions, coupled with limited formal disclosure or tools, it seems especially prone to "in the know" players continuing to get (stacked across different parameters) boosted results.
The recent change will hurt some players, and help other players. Just as the previous version hurt some players, and helped other players.
It is unfortunate that this change also punishes players who spent resources to create a roster for Arena's previous format ("Infinite Streak", etc.). That represents a massive investment of resources into a largely now worthless and useless roster configuration. This positions those players at a clear disadvantage for current content. It also reinforces the notion that you can't rely on game devs to keep any mode's format intact (Arena, Dungeons/Incursions, etc.). This "rely on" issue "complicates" longterm planning for roster development, and brand identity and brand image.
It's a game designer conundrum in how to handle older, "bad" content, that materially affects (or would materially affect if changed) players. If designers leave it in the game as is, it remains bad content. But if designers change it, then they are creating instability in their game in something players have long relied on as a standard. Usually, the longer the content has been left unchanged, and the more that content has (or would have if changed) an impact on players, it's better to just leave the content alone and not change it. Better to leave in old bad content, than overhaul it and then get a new game that plays so different that either (1) players get "screwed" by not being configured for the new game, or (2) the new game doesn't feel like the game players know and they no longer desire to play it at the same level.
In finance, they call "style drift" when you change things enough that it's really a new thing. This is something the game dev industry would be wise to keep track of as a concept as well. Know if they're drifting or potentially drifting, weigh the projected costs and benefits of that. One site I referenced sated, "the strongest voice you can give your product is a well-defined and consistently communicated brand identity." I wouldn't go that far, but brand identity can have its role.
I know this is a tough issue for game devs to juggle. Especially when in a game like MCOC, the players have ASKED for "changes" to the game. And then the devs have to wrestle with what the players think they want vs. what the players will freak out at having changed... until the weather changes... and then the players (and devs) react (or think) a different way. (I've been there)
Maybe it's regarded as an improvement simply because it removes a layer of non-intuitive awareness of stats and system configuration. That depends on which players fit into the "new to the Arena" demographic. And how these changes end up affecting players performance and participation over time. Is that just a subset of the players doing "Featured 3-Star", "Summoner Trials", and "Quickmatch"? Is it players that have only been playing the game for a certain duration of time? Or only players that have only played less than a certain number of Arena matches?
Without clarification of what defines this demographic, it just becomes a guessing game for me to figure out what it specifically references. So please excuse me if I address the wrong groups below in my guesses. I am happy to change my analysis to a more accurate demographic with further clarification.
I think the adding of a 3-Star at Tier 10 of the Milestone Rewards for the Featured 3-Star Arena "could" likely improve the game for some players. A player can grind less total points to get it, and there is no fixed limit on what % of players can achieve it. "Milestone Rewards" are not mutually exclusive and are not based on performance relative to others.
But how hard is it for a "new player" to build up points?
Any new player that didn't have the skill or roster to keep a winning streak going at 3+ will likely not see any change in their performance.
Any new player that has the skill or roster to keep a winning streak going at 3+ will likely see an increase or drop in their performance, based on their roster having more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena. So, new players with the high skill or high spend to get "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena" will increase performance. New players with the non-high skill or non-high spend to get "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level for that Arena" will decrease performance (if they can no longer brute force through a handful of hard matches, to get to matches they can use weaker Champions effectively on).
In the area of "Rank Rewards", these rewards are mutually exclusive and are based on performance relative to others.
It's worth noting that longtime players will have (or can much more easily get) "more high Rank Champions at the maximum Star level" for the lower Star Arenas. So longtime players will be able to much more easily outscore most new players, even more than before the change. The only real limit on longtime players dominating the lower Star Arenas for "Rank Rewards", is if those players choose either to skip the content or to not pursue much higher scoring in those Arenas.
So we're looking at "Rank Rewards" likely being dominated by longtime players who don't blow off the content, and new players with stacked rosters.
It might be that the presence of accounts with 3+ r3 6*’s has altered the algorithm again. However, is the PI ratio of 2:1 off when the player does 3@ r3 5*’s (IE 15k-18k VS 30k-36k)? I haven’t tried a full tilt of r3 5*’s yet.
While the fights are harder and longer, if you are skilled to keep the streak alive, the infinite streak is not dead.
Going through my 6 stars and r4 or above 5 stars is 24 runs. Gets me 3 mil points per run.
It used to be an hour of effortless grind in front of the television or at a queue or a commute.
I really do not wish or aspire to use my 130 4 stars or my other 60 5 stars. It's tedious and time consuming. I want my milestones, 11-30% rank rewards, and that's it.
With the changes that are now being reverted (thank you @Kabam Miike ) i had to actually pay attention and attempt perfect gameplay to finish my milestones and it took twice as much time. Also, using my top champs or just r3 and above - i never encountered x4 death matches before. So why would i complain about it when they roll back?
1: they’re throwing their powers more and I was able to start from the bottom by using r1 5* champions to the top r5 5* champions by taking the advantage of the filter button accessible to quickly start next fight.
2: lots of deathsquad for sure, but the difference is that they no longer goes defensive mode and wait for an sp3. It raise the experience to hone your skills when they’re aggressive and even if they’re having huge armor and health pool, it doesn’t have to be that difficult as they’re still throwing their powers after powers making it manageable to take the full advantage of your whole collection.
Are you telling me they’re too annoying with their huge armor and health pool forcing you to tap the screen more than necessary because it takes too long time when clearly they’re throwing their specials after specials while giving you lots of points to faster finish the milestones??? Come on... I find this to be good idea because it will force my skills to be more honed and in a long run they’re nothing of an difficult to defeat.
Your issue is more a personal one called lack of roster. I am an arena grinder that would put up 70-80 million and spend 8+ hours a day grinding all my 6*s and 5*s. Very few people put in that type of grinding.
The change, along with the expansion of the top 300, would lower the cutoff for the top champ dramatically. You might have even seen a drop in the score needed to retain top 10%.
Kabam was also trying to restore viability of the 4*-below r3 5* in the grind by reducing the max PI to just 2x the players team’s. I actually see what they were trying to do from a true arena grinder perspective.
Trust me, I have 5 yrs experience grinding the arena back when the 4* basic was all the rage. The ones I see mainly upset (and with some justification) is those that were arena casuals that targeted a lower tier for awards.
What you are not looking at is that everyone has the same issue you were... many players wouldn’t put in the time or the extra run to get the points needed. So, there may not have been a change to the score needed, as the tier’s points might drop naturally. You are speaking only based on the current time needed.
11-30% should be obtainable on a score of 13-14 million. Trust me, I know... 16-17million is the cutoff for 10%. I would put in that every week there was a 5* champ I didn’t need or want.
As for the time it takes? That is a personal choice. You either do or don’t put in the time for the rewards. However, sticking to a “score” on a limited roster, you would eventually have to increase your time as other players’ rosters improved and scores naturally increase over time. Just saying that from a true arena grinders perspective... don’t blame the game for your lack of commitment to the rewards you aspire to achieve.
I have no pity for your “2 hours”... you don’t want to put in the time, you do not deserve the awards. Plain and simple.
You're not the only one who's been grinding for years, and while you say that the changes reduces the cutoff for the points, that doesn't make a difference in the slightest because people nevertheless will be aiming just as high for the champ.
I swear because of some people this game is starting to feel like full time work shifts rather than a time to enjoy in between breaks now.
My problem is actually called 'time' which needs to be kept at a minimum due to work and family.
With the previous arena, 1h per day to get my milestones and decent rank was within reason. I have 0 intention to use my entire lower tier roster. I sometimes even neglect my r4 5 stars for lack of time. So, anything above 1h a day was not worth my time.
I believe i represent the majority of dedicated players. The 1% who grind through their entire teams for rank rewards do not represent the majority of players.and perhaps, they are the only ones who might enjoy the change that is about to be rolled back.
This was a byproduct of the algorithm... I did a video on this back in Jan last year on YouTube. I foresaw the lift of the death squad when R3 6*s were released and foretold it back then.
These aren’t even remotely close to death squads. Kabam limited them to 2x the PI as players complained about not being able to use 4*’s and low ranking 5’s... in fixing the death squad issue, the also fixed the bug that was causing them and allowing an easy infinite streak at the higher rankings. Basically, they made 4* and low rank 5* viable again by lowering the max difficulty of the fight. However, in doing this, it broadened the ability for the algorithm to find matches within scope of the 2x maximum at a team pi of 25-28k as with the number of players with 3+ R3 6*’s means there are qualifying matches.
It is still not a “death match” as the skill to beat them is not that much greater. Just my opinion.
You are literally complaining it will take you 20-30 minutes more. If that is too much, don’t do it. Then in kind, if you don’t get the rewards, that is your choice.
You choose your quality of “life” over a game. Good for you, but a fake shouldn’t have to be made to fit in your life when there are those having to put in 8+ hours to compete.
I am sorry, but the increase in the top pool and the difficulty of matches would drop the score to where you wouldn’t need to put in 8+ hours a day to get a featured champ. It might be able to be done in 4-6...
Thus allowing others to have more of a life and increase the number of people willing to grind for a champ, expand the pool and lower the score needed for 11-30%.
Your argument is about your little corner of the game and your life... not the overall mechanics of how the game works or how the changes would impact arena over time. Sorry, just my opinion.
Sorry the change became an issue. Thank you for your efforts in reviewing Arena mode, thinking about possible changes to improve it, communicating your thoughts, and the work you put into trying to make the improvements happen. This spirit, ideas, and effort are really great to see, and I hope you continue with this outlook for the game and the community.
I also really appreciate your process toward reacting to input from the community reaction. And your work to try to figure what solution would work for the game and community.
Even if this recent change is not going to stay, I think it's really neat to see and be able to try these changes as a player. Thank you. And maybe this change was just "too fast, too soon" for some players to really get familiar with and feel out if they prefer it or not (I know I have not fully tested it out).
Hopefully we'll see you explore more custom Arena types in the future. Maybe as alternate (additional) Arenas like the "Punishing Arena" currently is. This type of "mode variation sampling" (and testing) option can be interesting for players and devs (as long as you don't put any big rewards on them that player flip out over).
Your argument is “time”... but you are talking to someone who knows what it means to juggle family, a full time job and arena... I also know what it takes to put up scores to get a champ, or skate at 1-10% or 11-30%
I will put 4-5 hrs of work just get too 10% with a score of 17 million... your problem is more roster related and less time related to be honest.
Welcome to the big leagues, kid! You are talking with someone who knows all to well what it takes to rank and has been doing it for 5+ years in the game. Got most all of my 4* from the featured and basic when that was all we had. Been grinding ever since.
Hopefully the proposed changes will address the matchmaking element to prevent players spending way too much time in the arena than is necessary.
It’s the right decision from a QOL pointer of view. You’ll never please everyone, but this will keep the majority happy.
So disappointed in the community. Decided to see if I could use r1 without streak formula affecting and it works wonder. Now I can fully rack in more points to finish the milestones faster and go back to my life. Because of you folks that cry because of the “death squad” is too much for you too handle because the amount of times it takes to kill it is a joke when they are throwing their powers after powers. Shame on you community for not being willing to adapt and learn. Kabam just wanted to do that would be great for us and that is testing our skills and evolve it more.