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Hood Changes - Discussion [Merged Threads]

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    firemoon712firemoon712 Posts: 546 ★★★
    Worknprogress said:

    RavenKeeper said:

    Good lord. Shows most of you watch just Seatin, not any other youtubers and can’t come to a conclusion yourself. Hood is 5x the champion he used to be.

    I don't need a YouTuber to tell me I can no longer do something with a champ that I used to be able to do
    Exactly, they changed him so much that they might as well made a "Symbiote Hood" or something along those lines.
  • Options
    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    He is not the same champ, that is the entire point of a rebalance. What I just don’t understand is how you think a minor tweak would have helped hood? You could give him 50% attack all around and he still would have been a champ that can’t trigger a single rage node.

    He needed a new damage mechanic. Simply ramping up nothing just would not work. Bleed ? Shock? That’s about all he has. You could see people doing videos with him and he was still not able to do anything.

    It’s just weird how all of a sudden, his fate seal was a game changer for so many people. They say it was so I can only assume that, but I’m curious about what the data says.

    Texas_11 said:

    I’m not trying to pick an argument. All I’m saying is, I think people have been overestimating how effective hoods fate seal has been for them, this is clearly shown when people are fighting her champion boss.

    1. No one is arguing against new damage mechanics per se. But damage is ultimately about numbers, and any damage you can add to a champ with new mechanics I can add with changes to damage numbers. That's simple math. If all you care about is damage output, you can increase attack values, you can increase critical rating or critical damage rating or critical damage rating boosts, or even the scale damage values of things like special attacks (basic attacks generally obey a formula that's the same for every champ). Hood's specials don't deal a lot of damage. A number tweak would change that. Numbers tweaks would also improve the damage of Hexes without special mechanics arbitrarily high. The new mechanics are about adding the higher damage in a unique way to the champion, not about it being impossible to add damage with numbers changes.

    2. More importantly, it isn't just some players who value fate seal highly: the devs said they *had* to remove fate seal because otherwise Hood would have been too powerful. You cannot simultaneously argue that the devs can think it is so powerful it had to be removed, but the players have to think it was too weak to be worth fighting over. Anything the devs remove for balance reasons is by definition very valuable.

    If you're correct that fate seal shouldn't be a big deal to the players, you are making the argument that the devs should have never removed it, because if fate seal is not a big deal and players shouldn't get upset over its removal, by definition the devs were wrong to remove it because they had no exigent reason to do so.
    The only thing they can do is forecast. At this point , I wouldn’t mind if they had Hood(Classic) and a Hood( Imbued) and just call it. But from Kabams standpoint it is much better to tune with caution , because once they have to nerf something it gets a lot worse than this. I think the simple solution is to give hood buff immunity on the SP2, this doesn’t nullify buffs , but just removes them.

    I do appreciate your thoughts. Personally I don’t think you can just tune a champs basic damage or specials attacks and call it a day, I don’t think it’s about damage and just increasing that number we seen how ineffective that was in act 7 and act 6 I think it’s more about creating a new damage mechanic to not only bring him up to the next tier, but also to breathe life back into that champ.

    At this point , let’s just see what they come up with should be 48 hours or less . See ya then.
  • Options
    Brutus2099Brutus2099 Posts: 52 ★
    Having not played Hood prior to the tune up i cant comment on the fate seal removal, however the regen felt amazing probably a little over the top but the fact is there are just as good or better regen champs out there so there isnt really justification for Kabam removing it at this point.

    The unitended bug actually added to Hoods kit in a way Kabam hadnt intended, but overall made the tune up more acceptable to people i'd think as it afforded a level of payoff for losing the FS on SP2.

    If they considered the regen too much, a better solution would have been to leave it functioning as it was as it did add to hood and feel great, but maybe tone it down somewhat so instead of like 500ish or whatever it was to 300-350ish per tick.

    I was considering actually investing in hood after the tune up but with the regen nerf i think ill wait and see how it plays out. I do feel like Kabam should be offering RDT to those that did invest in Hood prior to the tune up as this champ i dont think was on anyones radar for change and those that did invest prior to the tune up did so for the control FS bought, taking that away justifies the provision of RDT's.

    Again i felt like the regen as it was before they announced it was a bug was a really good pay off for the loss of fate seal but then again i never played pre tune up Hood, the fights i have done since though outside niche fights the fate seal doesnt feel like its needed (im sure people will grumble at me for saying that) but its my opinion.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    Dylanphile said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Dylanphile said:

    @GroundedWisdom what rank is your Hood?

    Still sitting at R1. Been there a long time. Either way that's not the point I'm making.
    Then you're out of your element, Donny.
    Out of what element? You think the only people who can discuss the subject are people who Ranked Hood? Sorry, that's not how a discussion works.
    For that matter, he's been in the game for years. It's not surprising they want to work on him.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    RavenKeeper said:

    Good lord. Shows most of you watch just Seatin, not any other youtubers and can’t come to a conclusion yourself. Hood is 5x the champion he used to be.

    I've been accused of many things, but "mindless drone of @Seatin " is not usually one of those things.
    I will support that. You think for yourself, always. One of the things I appreciate about you. There are others. :)
  • Options
    Hera1d_of_Ga1actusHera1d_of_Ga1actus Posts: 2,439 ★★★★★
    Was gonna rank him up, not so sure anymore
  • Options
    Grim7787Grim7787 Posts: 73 ★
    IMO, as a long time Hood user, an easier "Buff" I would have been happy with would have been a tweak/addition to his sp3.

    Instead of "Gains X attack for for each bar of power...", it could have been reworked to be something like "Gains a Fury buff/passive for each bar of power. Each Fury buff/passive grants X attack for X seconds..."

    Something to that effect...

    Everything else could have been left as it was.
  • Options
    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    He is not the same champ, that is the entire point of a rebalance. What I just don’t understand is how you think a minor tweak would have helped hood? You could give him 50% attack all around and he still would have been a champ that can’t trigger a single rage node.

    He needed a new damage mechanic. Simply ramping up nothing just would not work. Bleed ? Shock? That’s about all he has. You could see people doing videos with him and he was still not able to do anything.

    It’s just weird how all of a sudden, his fate seal was a game changer for so many people. They say it was so I can only assume that, but I’m curious about what the data says.

    Texas_11 said:

    I’m not trying to pick an argument. All I’m saying is, I think people have been overestimating how effective hoods fate seal has been for them, this is clearly shown when people are fighting her champion boss.

    1. No one is arguing against new damage mechanics per se. But damage is ultimately about numbers, and any damage you can add to a champ with new mechanics I can add with changes to damage numbers. That's simple math. If all you care about is damage output, you can increase attack values, you can increase critical rating or critical damage rating or critical damage rating boosts, or even the scale damage values of things like special attacks (basic attacks generally obey a formula that's the same for every champ). Hood's specials don't deal a lot of damage. A number tweak would change that. Numbers tweaks would also improve the damage of Hexes without special mechanics arbitrarily high. The new mechanics are about adding the higher damage in a unique way to the champion, not about it being impossible to add damage with numbers changes.

    2. More importantly, it isn't just some players who value fate seal highly: the devs said they *had* to remove fate seal because otherwise Hood would have been too powerful. You cannot simultaneously argue that the devs can think it is so powerful it had to be removed, but the players have to think it was too weak to be worth fighting over. Anything the devs remove for balance reasons is by definition very valuable.

    If you're correct that fate seal shouldn't be a big deal to the players, you are making the argument that the devs should have never removed it, because if fate seal is not a big deal and players shouldn't get upset over its removal, by definition the devs were wrong to remove it because they had no exigent reason to do so.
    The only thing they can do is forecast. At this point , I wouldn’t mind if they had Hood(Classic) and a Hood( Imbued) and just call it. But from Kabams standpoint it is much better to tune with caution , because once they have to nerf something it gets a lot worse than this.
    That's true in general, but it is still the case they cannot have it both ways. They cannot forecast that Fate Seal is problematically too strong, and also forecast that Fate Seal is not strong enough for the players to justifiably complain about. Being cautious implies considering the worst case scenario and if the worst case scenario is that Fate Seal would have been too powerful to keep, the worst case scenario is also that the existing players would believe Fate Seal is too important to jettison, and they should have presumed the reaction they got.

    Which would be fine if it was necessary. But as I said, it wasn't necessary. If Hood is too powerful with his existing kit plus the new kit additions, then reducing the strength of *either* would be sufficient to bring him back in line. The devs didn't want to give up their cool additions, but that's not a necessary imperative.
    They cannot have it both ways, you are right about that. On paper they probably felt there was a redundancy in fate seal and stagger, which would cover his ability to deal with incoming buffs. They probably forecasted that Fate seal = Nullify+ Stagger= MD nightmare = Constantly invisible = New broken mechanic= Nerf.

    They also didn’t intend for him to be a Stagger/ Nullify beast and that probably would have catapulted him to the top over doom, with his power steal and can miss indefinitely etc. I think the easy fix is to give him a Claire Voyant buff immunity so he doesn’t have this interaction with MD. He would still be able to strip buffs , apply staggers , but wouldn’t nullify anything that the immunity stopped. I do think Fate Seal is a useful mechanic for when it’s applied. But I do think it makes him overall to powerful. If the chief complaint is just buff removal I think that works even if it’s for a second or two.

    I don’t think his new kit needs to be toned down, I think it’s good and the devs did a great job. I’m curious to see what they come up with.

  • Options
    winterthurwinterthur Posts: 7,772 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    I have to admit, I am curious myself how that decision was made.

    One like for this. Now, I am really curious how game's developer statement in this matter is going to be like.
  • Options
    The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 7,781 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    He is not the same champ, that is the entire point of a rebalance. What I just don’t understand is how you think a minor tweak would have helped hood? You could give him 50% attack all around and he still would have been a champ that can’t trigger a single rage node.

    He needed a new damage mechanic. Simply ramping up nothing just would not work. Bleed ? Shock? That’s about all he has. You could see people doing videos with him and he was still not able to do anything.

    It’s just weird how all of a sudden, his fate seal was a game changer for so many people. They say it was so I can only assume that, but I’m curious about what the data says.

    Texas_11 said:

    I’m not trying to pick an argument. All I’m saying is, I think people have been overestimating how effective hoods fate seal has been for them, this is clearly shown when people are fighting her champion boss.

    1. No one is arguing against new damage mechanics per se. But damage is ultimately about numbers, and any damage you can add to a champ with new mechanics I can add with changes to damage numbers. That's simple math. If all you care about is damage output, you can increase attack values, you can increase critical rating or critical damage rating or critical damage rating boosts, or even the scale damage values of things like special attacks (basic attacks generally obey a formula that's the same for every champ). Hood's specials don't deal a lot of damage. A number tweak would change that. Numbers tweaks would also improve the damage of Hexes without special mechanics arbitrarily high. The new mechanics are about adding the higher damage in a unique way to the champion, not about it being impossible to add damage with numbers changes.

    2. More importantly, it isn't just some players who value fate seal highly: the devs said they *had* to remove fate seal because otherwise Hood would have been too powerful. You cannot simultaneously argue that the devs can think it is so powerful it had to be removed, but the players have to think it was too weak to be worth fighting over. Anything the devs remove for balance reasons is by definition very valuable.

    If you're correct that fate seal shouldn't be a big deal to the players, you are making the argument that the devs should have never removed it, because if fate seal is not a big deal and players shouldn't get upset over its removal, by definition the devs were wrong to remove it because they had no exigent reason to do so.
    The only thing they can do is forecast. At this point , I wouldn’t mind if they had Hood(Classic) and a Hood( Imbued) and just call it. But from Kabams standpoint it is much better to tune with caution , because once they have to nerf something it gets a lot worse than this.
    That's true in general, but it is still the case they cannot have it both ways. They cannot forecast that Fate Seal is problematically too strong, and also forecast that Fate Seal is not strong enough for the players to justifiably complain about. Being cautious implies considering the worst case scenario and if the worst case scenario is that Fate Seal would have been too powerful to keep, the worst case scenario is also that the existing players would believe Fate Seal is too important to jettison, and they should have presumed the reaction they got.

    Which would be fine if it was necessary. But as I said, it wasn't necessary. If Hood is too powerful with his existing kit plus the new kit additions, then reducing the strength of *either* would be sufficient to bring him back in line. The devs didn't want to give up their cool additions, but that's not a necessary imperative.
    They cannot have it both ways, you are right about that. On paper they probably felt there was a redundancy in fate seal and stagger, which would cover his ability to deal with incoming buffs. They probably forecasted that Fate seal = Nullify+ Stagger= MD nightmare = Constantly invisible = New broken mechanic= Nerf.

    They also didn’t intend for him to be a Stagger/ Nullify beast and that probably would have catapulted him to the top over doom, with his power steal and can miss indefinitely etc. I think the easy fix is to give him a Claire Voyant buff immunity so he doesn’t have this interaction with MD. He would still be able to strip buffs , apply staggers , but wouldn’t nullify anything that the immunity stopped. I do think Fate Seal is a useful mechanic for when it’s applied. But I do think it makes him overall to powerful. If the chief complaint is just buff removal I think that works even if it’s for a second or two.

    I don’t think his new kit needs to be toned down, I think it’s good and the devs did a great job. I’m curious to see what they come up with.

    But even befor that he could sp2 spam with MD. Plus it can only be done twice in a row because they fate seal will prevent future buffs anyways for a short while and it's not like they buffed the sp2 damage or anything. If Kabam wanted to tune him down, they should have done so with the new abilities, not his old. Give him a cap on power gain or something. Actually implement invisibility properly with cooldown. What loosing fate seal is to Hood is loosing the debuff shrug-off for Elsa.
  • Options
    Grim7787Grim7787 Posts: 73 ★
    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    He is not the same champ, that is the entire point of a rebalance. What I just don’t understand is how you think a minor tweak would have helped hood? You could give him 50% attack all around and he still would have been a champ that can’t trigger a single rage node.

    He needed a new damage mechanic. Simply ramping up nothing just would not work. Bleed ? Shock? That’s about all he has. You could see people doing videos with him and he was still not able to do anything.

    It’s just weird how all of a sudden, his fate seal was a game changer for so many people. They say it was so I can only assume that, but I’m curious about what the data says.

    Texas_11 said:

    I’m not trying to pick an argument. All I’m saying is, I think people have been overestimating how effective hoods fate seal has been for them, this is clearly shown when people are fighting her champion boss.

    1. No one is arguing against new damage mechanics per se. But damage is ultimately about numbers, and any damage you can add to a champ with new mechanics I can add with changes to damage numbers. That's simple math. If all you care about is damage output, you can increase attack values, you can increase critical rating or critical damage rating or critical damage rating boosts, or even the scale damage values of things like special attacks (basic attacks generally obey a formula that's the same for every champ). Hood's specials don't deal a lot of damage. A number tweak would change that. Numbers tweaks would also improve the damage of Hexes without special mechanics arbitrarily high. The new mechanics are about adding the higher damage in a unique way to the champion, not about it being impossible to add damage with numbers changes.

    2. More importantly, it isn't just some players who value fate seal highly: the devs said they *had* to remove fate seal because otherwise Hood would have been too powerful. You cannot simultaneously argue that the devs can think it is so powerful it had to be removed, but the players have to think it was too weak to be worth fighting over. Anything the devs remove for balance reasons is by definition very valuable.

    If you're correct that fate seal shouldn't be a big deal to the players, you are making the argument that the devs should have never removed it, because if fate seal is not a big deal and players shouldn't get upset over its removal, by definition the devs were wrong to remove it because they had no exigent reason to do so.
    The only thing they can do is forecast. At this point , I wouldn’t mind if they had Hood(Classic) and a Hood( Imbued) and just call it. But from Kabams standpoint it is much better to tune with caution , because once they have to nerf something it gets a lot worse than this.
    That's true in general, but it is still the case they cannot have it both ways. They cannot forecast that Fate Seal is problematically too strong, and also forecast that Fate Seal is not strong enough for the players to justifiably complain about. Being cautious implies considering the worst case scenario and if the worst case scenario is that Fate Seal would have been too powerful to keep, the worst case scenario is also that the existing players would believe Fate Seal is too important to jettison, and they should have presumed the reaction they got.

    Which would be fine if it was necessary. But as I said, it wasn't necessary. If Hood is too powerful with his existing kit plus the new kit additions, then reducing the strength of *either* would be sufficient to bring him back in line. The devs didn't want to give up their cool additions, but that's not a necessary imperative.
    They cannot have it both ways, you are right about that. On paper they probably felt there was a redundancy in fate seal and stagger, which would cover his ability to deal with incoming buffs. They probably forecasted that Fate seal = Nullify+ Stagger= MD nightmare = Constantly invisible = New broken mechanic= Nerf.

    They also didn’t intend for him to be a Stagger/ Nullify beast and that probably would have catapulted him to the top over doom, with his power steal and can miss indefinitely etc. I think the easy fix is to give him a Claire Voyant buff immunity so he doesn’t have this interaction with MD. He would still be able to strip buffs , apply staggers , but wouldn’t nullify anything that the immunity stopped. I do think Fate Seal is a useful mechanic for when it’s applied. But I do think it makes him overall to powerful. If the chief complaint is just buff removal I think that works even if it’s for a second or two.

    I don’t think his new kit needs to be toned down, I think it’s good and the devs did a great job. I’m curious to see what they come up with.


    It is indeed quite a good kit. I won't argue that...

    The point is, Hood didn't need it!

    They could have created some other gun toting new champ and thrown that kit on him and he'd be pretty sick, lol.
  • Options
    Grim7787Grim7787 Posts: 73 ★
    winterthur said:

    Grim7787 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    He is not the same champ, that is the entire point of a rebalance. What I just don’t understand is how you think a minor tweak would have helped hood? You could give him 50% attack all around and he still would have been a champ that can’t trigger a single rage node.

    He needed a new damage mechanic. Simply ramping up nothing just would not work. Bleed ? Shock? That’s about all he has. You could see people doing videos with him and he was still not able to do anything.

    It’s just weird how all of a sudden, his fate seal was a game changer for so many people. They say it was so I can only assume that, but I’m curious about what the data says.

    Texas_11 said:

    I’m not trying to pick an argument. All I’m saying is, I think people have been overestimating how effective hoods fate seal has been for them, this is clearly shown when people are fighting her champion boss.

    1. No one is arguing against new damage mechanics per se. But damage is ultimately about numbers, and any damage you can add to a champ with new mechanics I can add with changes to damage numbers. That's simple math. If all you care about is damage output, you can increase attack values, you can increase critical rating or critical damage rating or critical damage rating boosts, or even the scale damage values of things like special attacks (basic attacks generally obey a formula that's the same for every champ). Hood's specials don't deal a lot of damage. A number tweak would change that. Numbers tweaks would also improve the damage of Hexes without special mechanics arbitrarily high. The new mechanics are about adding the higher damage in a unique way to the champion, not about it being impossible to add damage with numbers changes.

    2. More importantly, it isn't just some players who value fate seal highly: the devs said they *had* to remove fate seal because otherwise Hood would have been too powerful. You cannot simultaneously argue that the devs can think it is so powerful it had to be removed, but the players have to think it was too weak to be worth fighting over. Anything the devs remove for balance reasons is by definition very valuable.

    If you're correct that fate seal shouldn't be a big deal to the players, you are making the argument that the devs should have never removed it, because if fate seal is not a big deal and players shouldn't get upset over its removal, by definition the devs were wrong to remove it because they had no exigent reason to do so.
    The only thing they can do is forecast. At this point , I wouldn’t mind if they had Hood(Classic) and a Hood( Imbued) and just call it. But from Kabams standpoint it is much better to tune with caution , because once they have to nerf something it gets a lot worse than this.
    That's true in general, but it is still the case they cannot have it both ways. They cannot forecast that Fate Seal is problematically too strong, and also forecast that Fate Seal is not strong enough for the players to justifiably complain about. Being cautious implies considering the worst case scenario and if the worst case scenario is that Fate Seal would have been too powerful to keep, the worst case scenario is also that the existing players would believe Fate Seal is too important to jettison, and they should have presumed the reaction they got.

    Which would be fine if it was necessary. But as I said, it wasn't necessary. If Hood is too powerful with his existing kit plus the new kit additions, then reducing the strength of *either* would be sufficient to bring him back in line. The devs didn't want to give up their cool additions, but that's not a necessary imperative.
    They cannot have it both ways, you are right about that. On paper they probably felt there was a redundancy in fate seal and stagger, which would cover his ability to deal with incoming buffs. They probably forecasted that Fate seal = Nullify+ Stagger= MD nightmare = Constantly invisible = New broken mechanic= Nerf.

    They also didn’t intend for him to be a Stagger/ Nullify beast and that probably would have catapulted him to the top over doom, with his power steal and can miss indefinitely etc. I think the easy fix is to give him a Claire Voyant buff immunity so he doesn’t have this interaction with MD. He would still be able to strip buffs , apply staggers , but wouldn’t nullify anything that the immunity stopped. I do think Fate Seal is a useful mechanic for when it’s applied. But I do think it makes him overall to powerful. If the chief complaint is just buff removal I think that works even if it’s for a second or two.

    I don’t think his new kit needs to be toned down, I think it’s good and the devs did a great job. I’m curious to see what they come up with.

    They could have created some other gun toting new champ and thrown that kit on him and he'd be pretty sick, lol.
    This?


    :D:D:D
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