Variant 7 is way too easy

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Comments

  • KnightZeroKnightZero Posts: 969 ★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

    You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.

    Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
    You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
    So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
    doesn't that mean they should add more harder content so that players are forced to improve? Im not an endgame player by any means but imo, act 6 completion was harder than 7.1 exploration and my roster was very similar from 6.3-7.1.
    I never said content should be easy. You're not reading the earlier message. I said that a complete end game player who isn't buying units to complete, telling that V7 is easy even with a limited roster doesn't mean anything because he has the skill to do it with a limited roster since he has already done everything. I never said V7 was endgame nor did I compare it to Act 6. All I said was that highly skilled players can do content that others may find troubling even without broad rosters, so that doesn't mean that the content is 'easy' for normal players.
    Also, they need to figure out how to add hard content. Make it too hard and majority of your players aren't going to try it. Make it easy and you get complaints. They need to figure out a right spot. If they want, they can make it really hard. They can do so many things in game. But they need to look at the number of people doing content itself and see if it's viable for them as a company.
  • KDoggg2017KDoggg2017 Posts: 815 ★★★★
    Variants are fine for players who still get excited about 5* R5s. Players who have declared they have "moved on to 6*s ONLY" should NOT expect to be challenged by Variant difficulty.

    Hopefully Kabam has Summer of Pain level content ready to release tho. (For endgame players sake and sanity).
  • pseudosanepseudosane Posts: 1,088 ★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    The irony is that the most people that tell the endgame players to use 3 stars and 4 stars to make content more challenging are the same people saying they won't explore act 6. I want variants to be atleast as difficult as act 6 so that people can explore that and use the resources to explore act 6.

    Ive done all content. I am using 4* in v7 to create a challenge for myself.
  • pseudosanepseudosane Posts: 1,088 ★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

    You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.

    Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
    You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
    So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
    dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.

    I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind

    Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

    If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

    If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.


    there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist
    7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.
  • Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 501 ★★★

    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind

    How are people left behind? Once they develop the rosters, they can also do the most difficult content. By that logic, Kabam cannot create any content since someone will always be left behind. There needs to be a goalpost for anyone to work towards. As it is, only AW seems to be the difficult content available for people who have explored everything.
    Goalposts require "skill". Roster breadth need not qualify for that. Difficulty is also subjective, what may be difficult for someone may not be for someone else. How do you quantify that? Make it "difficult" that you hope the players will be able to gain those "skills" later on? "skills" reduce items but lets not forget, a bunch of players will not be doing act6 at all. These "hard" pieces of content are better off as limited time events with decent rewards, the main lure being "the challenge of it".
    But people also need to develop the skill to tackle the difficult content. I am not saying there should be content geared towards end game players completely. But when I see the comment that you can use 3 stars to complete content, it just makes me wonder if the R3 rank ups I make are only useful for AW and not for actual content. I am currently exploring V1, its very frustrating, but its also very interesting to do.
    Some folks will never be able to do it. Some will just skip it, is that a goal for content? @DNA3000 had a good thread about difficulty of act5 vs act6 a while back, id refer you to that. Don't get me wrong, I love tough content. I love it so much i have two accounts doing every piece of content completely differently. But in the end, if you artificially boost difficulty by adding punishing attack values/health values, that is no different than using 3*. Feeling content is too easy? stop using champs that "bypass" nodes (looking at you quake). Then lets see how many of the tryhards keep their statements.
    Wicket329 said:

    AntoGrey said:

    The point is not that Variant 7 could be easy. Point is that I am going to 100% it in a couple of hours and after that there is anything else to do in this game.

    To that id say, arena.
    Ah, yes. Arena. That place where, famously, I can use my top tier champions and flex my skill as a player. Maybe come up with a unique synergy team for this 7000 PI Iron Man? Maybe I’ll use a clever playstyle to defeat this unnoded Jane Foster. The world is my oyster!

    Less sarcastically, as a player who has completed all of the content in the game, what am I grinding arena for? I have no need for 5* champions anymore, so no point in aiming for a top spot. I have no content to clear that would need items, so a unit grind doesn’t seem terribly appealing outside of trying to build-up for big sale events like July 4th. And, I cannot stress this enough, arena is *painfully* boring. I’ve worked in literal jails that looked more fun than a weekend arena grind. I’ll pop in every now and again to complete a solo objective or something, but good god do I hate arena.
    I mean, isnt that an endless form of content?
    Is content meant to "flex" your skill as a player or give you enjoyment? What gives you enjoyment, the ability to flex, or ability to use different champions to finish a piece of content.
    As to why you would grind arena, units. I have finished all content myself. I grind arena to keep units ready for offers, and the next abyss/ the next hard piece of content.
    I am not a Kabam apologetic, but the company is giving out pieces of fun content now, which i can use multiple various options to complete. That for me, is fun.
    I’m not asking for endless content, I’m asking for enjoyable content. If you choose not to see a difference between the two, I cannot lead you to it. You mentioned in another comment that you’re doing V7 with 4* champions. It is wonderful that you enjoy playing through content with lower ranked champions, and I mean that sincerely. I hope that everybody finds the thing in this game that keeps it fresh and fun for them. But I and many other players do not find that particular means of increasing difficulty fun or interesting.

    My favorite thing in this game is the puzzle-solving. Discovering that perfect counter, figuring out a playstyle or tactic that gets you through a tricky encounter. I always point to the moment I figured out to backdraft intercept the Grandmaster during his final enrage phase, or when I managed to pull off the heal reversal takedown on Abyss Darkhawk as prime examples of times I really enjoyed the game. Figuring out how to game the mechanics in such a way to accomplish the goal gets that dopamine flowing for me. That’s what I’m looking for in new content. Fights that test my timing, or my positioning, or my game-sense, or whatever. That’s what makes this game great for me, and what I hope to see more of. And none of that can be found in the Arena.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 1,884 ★★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

    You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.

    Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
    You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
    So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
    dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.

    I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind

    Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

    If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

    If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.


    there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist
    7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.
    it was fun but it was easier than act 6 completion. 100% act 7 didnt give me anywhere close to the satisfaction of completing act 6
    I think he was talking about using ghost and quake. I actually don't use either champs. I never bothered to perfect them because I find quake too boring and while ghost can be fun, he is not the champ I like to use. So, the nodes you suggested will not affect my experience in the slightest. @pseudosane
  • Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 501 ★★★

    People are growing. Their Rosters are growing. What was hard before won't be as hard later. Also, there was a Survey regarding Variants and the feedback could have showed people wanted the emphasis on other things. It's fun. Not insanely challenging, but fun. That's not a bad thing. Is there a need for something geared higher up? I'd say so. A number of people are asking for a challenge. In terms of this Variant I think it's fine the way it is.

    Just to clarify my position, I’ve got no issue with variants being easy for a 100% completionist player. I’m very okay with these being more geared towards mid-tier players, and have no desire to take variants away from them. I just want something more to push me at this point.
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 1,905 ★★★★★
    edited April 15
    DNA3000 said:

    Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

    If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

    It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

    Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

    I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
    Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.

    If we made true end game content that would be great but the complaints would be a lot more. Players need to make up their minds. I'm open to content more similar to act 6 but when it comes to variants not sure I want that based on the rewards. I think a whole new game mode with multiple difficulties where Cavalier status is truly end game would be the best option if you ask me. Also, the rewards need to match said difficulty.
  • PalanthraxPalanthrax Posts: 874 ★★★★
    It’s easy if you don’t get hit. There must be a lot of perfect players in this thread. The attack values are so high that if you get hit, your champ is gone in about 3 hits, sometimes less. I preferred act 7, personally.
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 1,905 ★★★★★

    It’s easy if you don’t get hit. There must be a lot of perfect players in this thread. The attack values are so high that if you get hit, your champ is gone in about 3 hits, sometimes less. I preferred act 7, personally.

    When you have all content done you have so many revives in storage and health potions that if you die 2 or 3 times in a lane they still consider that easy content because its basically free items. They won't consider hard unless all their champs don't make it before the boss. Let me clarify that for those of you that think its about playing perfectly literally.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 4,375 ★★★★★

    It’s easy if you don’t get hit. There must be a lot of perfect players in this thread. The attack values are so high that if you get hit, your champ is gone in about 3 hits, sometimes less. I preferred act 7, personally.

    I had less than 50% health and accidentally pushed a yondu to an sp3, my CGR had 20% health left afterwards I believe?
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,327 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

    If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

    It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

    Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

    I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
    Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
    I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

    Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

    Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

    The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
  • pseudosanepseudosane Posts: 1,088 ★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind

    How are people left behind? Once they develop the rosters, they can also do the most difficult content. By that logic, Kabam cannot create any content since someone will always be left behind. There needs to be a goalpost for anyone to work towards. As it is, only AW seems to be the difficult content available for people who have explored everything.
    Goalposts require "skill". Roster breadth need not qualify for that. Difficulty is also subjective, what may be difficult for someone may not be for someone else. How do you quantify that? Make it "difficult" that you hope the players will be able to gain those "skills" later on? "skills" reduce items but lets not forget, a bunch of players will not be doing act6 at all. These "hard" pieces of content are better off as limited time events with decent rewards, the main lure being "the challenge of it".
    But people also need to develop the skill to tackle the difficult content. I am not saying there should be content geared towards end game players completely. But when I see the comment that you can use 3 stars to complete content, it just makes me wonder if the R3 rank ups I make are only useful for AW and not for actual content. I am currently exploring V1, its very frustrating, but its also very interesting to do.
    Some folks will never be able to do it. Some will just skip it, is that a goal for content? @DNA3000 had a good thread about difficulty of act5 vs act6 a while back, id refer you to that. Don't get me wrong, I love tough content. I love it so much i have two accounts doing every piece of content completely differently. But in the end, if you artificially boost difficulty by adding punishing attack values/health values, that is no different than using 3*. Feeling content is too easy? stop using champs that "bypass" nodes (looking at you quake). Then lets see how many of the tryhards keep their statements.
    Wicket329 said:

    AntoGrey said:

    The point is not that Variant 7 could be easy. Point is that I am going to 100% it in a couple of hours and after that there is anything else to do in this game.

    To that id say, arena.
    Ah, yes. Arena. That place where, famously, I can use my top tier champions and flex my skill as a player. Maybe come up with a unique synergy team for this 7000 PI Iron Man? Maybe I’ll use a clever playstyle to defeat this unnoded Jane Foster. The world is my oyster!

    Less sarcastically, as a player who has completed all of the content in the game, what am I grinding arena for? I have no need for 5* champions anymore, so no point in aiming for a top spot. I have no content to clear that would need items, so a unit grind doesn’t seem terribly appealing outside of trying to build-up for big sale events like July 4th. And, I cannot stress this enough, arena is *painfully* boring. I’ve worked in literal jails that looked more fun than a weekend arena grind. I’ll pop in every now and again to complete a solo objective or something, but good god do I hate arena.
    I mean, isnt that an endless form of content?
    Is content meant to "flex" your skill as a player or give you enjoyment? What gives you enjoyment, the ability to flex, or ability to use different champions to finish a piece of content.
    As to why you would grind arena, units. I have finished all content myself. I grind arena to keep units ready for offers, and the next abyss/ the next hard piece of content.
    I am not a Kabam apologetic, but the company is giving out pieces of fun content now, which i can use multiple various options to complete. That for me, is fun.
    I’m not asking for endless content, I’m asking for enjoyable content. If you choose not to see a difference between the two, I cannot lead you to it. You mentioned in another comment that you’re doing V7 with 4* champions. It is wonderful that you enjoy playing through content with lower ranked champions, and I mean that sincerely. I hope that everybody finds the thing in this game that keeps it fresh and fun for them. But I and many other players do not find that particular means of increasing difficulty fun or interesting.

    My favorite thing in this game is the puzzle-solving. Discovering that perfect counter, figuring out a playstyle or tactic that gets you through a tricky encounter. I always point to the moment I figured out to backdraft intercept the Grandmaster during his final enrage phase, or when I managed to pull off the heal reversal takedown on Abyss Darkhawk as prime examples of times I really enjoyed the game. Figuring out how to game the mechanics in such a way to accomplish the goal gets that dopamine flowing for me. That’s what I’m looking for in new content. Fights that test my timing, or my positioning, or my game-sense, or whatever. That’s what makes this game great for me, and what I hope to see more of. And none of that can be found in the Arena.
    I totally understand the drive and need. But I also understand limitations to design and requirement of balance. I have also completed all pieces of content currently, and have nothing else to do myself. So i take challenge when i can, however I can. But, a majority of the player base enjoys "fun" content, and i do agree those are fun. Challenging content locks out a large portion of the players for the time being, which, while it gives them time to work on, can also be a huge hindrance to game experience. Case in point, Act6. Act6 is a huge hurdle, and even now, a lot of players just do not want to do that piece of content. That is a design failure, how much ever folks like us like that sort of content. Complaining does nothing to change that. I would thus rather have temporary content like the maze, drop from time to time. Arena is just means to an end.
    Pulyaman said:

    Haji_Saab said:

    As someone who went through all variants on a mini account with limited roster recently, i can safely say variants are just getting easier. There are no two ways about it.

    You just start with the latest and progress all the way to v1. That’s how difficulty is. Nothing to do with roster progression.

    Honestly, while I'm not saying V7 is super hard or anything, that doesn't mean much coming from you or any other higher end or even end game player. Lagacy and BG did one run to reach Cav with their mini's with basically **** rosters other than a couple high level champs. Doesn't make it easy for others.
    You're end game. Done with Abyss, Done with Act 6 before nerf, Done with all content in game. And you do T3 wars at the very least.
    So even if you have a limited roster, you have the skill to manage with it.
    dude that just means that midgame players need to get better. With how 7.1 was, people rnt getting that challenged.

    I agree that from what ive run so far it does seem easy. However for the guys that are complaining its too easy you can make it a challenge for youselves if you REALLY want to make it difficult. Run it with 4 stars or r1-2 5 stars and challenge yourselves if you feel so strongly about it. It would be nice to see more difficult content come out for endgame players as someone who has completed everything myself but lets not make the difficulty so difficult that ONLY endgame players can complete it and everybody else gets left behind

    Boy am I upset I ranked up my favourite champions as 6*. I wish someone had told me how easy variant content was going to be so I could have left them rank 1 level 1 in order to use them in challenging content.

    If kabam makes content that is hard for the people who want hard content, it is always in the game. If you can’t do it right away then you can come back to it. You satisfy the endgame by giving them a challenge, you satisfy the others by giving them something to work to and complete later.

    If kabam makes content that is too easy for the end game players, then they are disappointed and never get their challenge. What’s the point ranking champions if you can’t use them in serious content? And then coming to the forums to voice concerns and they get told to just use 4*, an artificial, useless challenge that brushes off and doesn’t address any issue.


    there weren't any new or unique nodes, and as u said chapter 3 was just long and boring with that crit resist
    7.1 was fun. Add extra nodes that prevent miss, add true strike, and redo. Youd be surprised how many folks will struggle when they "actually" play the node.
    it was fun but it was easier than act 6 completion. 100% act 7 didnt give me anywhere close to the satisfaction of completing act 6
    I think he was talking about using ghost and quake. I actually don't use either champs. I never bothered to perfect them because I find quake too boring and while ghost can be fun, he is not the champ I like to use. So, the nodes you suggested will not affect my experience in the slightest. @pseudosane
    If you have other content still remaining, you do have stuff to do. "easy" is a relative term. What would you find tough?
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 1,905 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

    If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

    It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

    Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

    I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
    Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
    I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

    Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

    Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

    The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
    I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.
  • Bugmat78Bugmat78 Posts: 707 ★★★

    Objectively, is variant one harder, easier or the same as variant 7? What about the other variants?

    My experience has been getting easier, of course in part to my roster developing but I always thought variant 1 is objectively the hardest still, which is why people still leave it to last.

    I mean, when people say which variant should I do most people suggest reverse order, 6 down to 1, which suggest it’s been getting easier, not staying the same

    It's not just that though but the effort: rewards are much better for the latest variants than the earlier ones. Who will choose to explore v2 or 3, over variant 6 and 7 with 25% t5cc on offer?
  • SceptilemaniacSceptilemaniac Posts: 972 ★★★
    The paths are pretty easy, sure but I think where it balances out is the class restrictions. For example, I have no good mystic heroes so I'll have to wait or do it with mutants to explore. Also, I did the overclocked+arc overload path for completion with Aegon because I don't have any tech heroes above R3. So, yes completion might be easy but for someone with a roster that has completed 7.1, this still feels like fun (and a lil challenging) content. The only problem I have is that I would've liked some new wacky nodes instead of +125% attack straight up.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 4,375 ★★★★★
    Bugmat78 said:

    Objectively, is variant one harder, easier or the same as variant 7? What about the other variants?

    My experience has been getting easier, of course in part to my roster developing but I always thought variant 1 is objectively the hardest still, which is why people still leave it to last.

    I mean, when people say which variant should I do most people suggest reverse order, 6 down to 1, which suggest it’s been getting easier, not staying the same

    It's not just that though but the effort: rewards are much better for the latest variants than the earlier ones. Who will choose to explore v2 or 3, over variant 6 and 7 with 25% t5cc on offer?
    A fair point, I still wonder which people would explore first if they had the choice and equal rewards.
  • zeezee57zeezee57 Posts: 3,002 ★★★★★
    I used to hate act 6, did a first pass upon release of each chapter and left it alone for a long time. As I'm winding it down (just one lane left of 6.4 and GM is already done) I'm actually sad to see it in the rear view now. It's been the only content that I've really had to pace my way through using and restocking my inventory, waiting for the right champs etc and while it once seemed frustratingly difficult (I clearly wasn't ready to explore it at that point) it's aged really well imo. Never thought I'd be saying it but I hope there's some like it to come be it 7.2 or Summer of Pain or something else entirely.

    Fact is once I'm done idk what I'll be playing towards. I enjoy the variants and 7.1 but they're easy enough I don't have to worry about my inventory while doing them. I choose not to spend units on content and save them for the big sales or opening crystals which I enjoy. It's also my way of making content last since you can explore anything with unlimited inventory. So I space it out by rebuilding the inventory as needed and clearing more as I go. It's something to work at and strive to complete and it's the only non abyss content like that and it's been a long time now since it came out and needs a predecessor sooner than later.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,327 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

    If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

    It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

    Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

    I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
    Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
    I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

    Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

    Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

    The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
    I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.
    The arena score was just one data point, as I said. The devs have the actual usage data, which showed that the players who said he was useless and thus not being used by anyone was wrong.

    The devs aren't going to come on the forums and correct people with graphs and charts. Instead they are just going to assume that the people who are absolutely certain something is happening that the game data says is definitely not happening simply have impaired judgment and thus lack credibility.

    I'm always puzzled when people assert certainty about things they can't possibly be certain about, while being judged by invisible people who have all the answers in the back of the book. It seems to me to be highly counterproductive if you're trying to convince those invisible people to listen to your ideas.
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 1,905 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Kabam really doesn't have a choice anymore. If they make something challenging all they'll get is people complaining the rewards aren't worth the effort from people who probably aren't ready for it. This group tends to be the larger group.

    If they don't make it challenging at all then people fly through it and are bored again in a day or 2. And those same types say the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    No matter what they do, it's going to get complaints. Content a lose/lose for them.

    It is true that people will complain no matter what, but I think what people tend to forget is that game developers don't just listen to complaints. In fact, they tend to have the opposite problem. It is very rare that player complaints radically changes the way the game is developed on their own. Almost every time players think a complaint has changed the game, there's actually been some behind-the-scenes number crunching that has driven the process.

    Content doesn't get easier or harder just because players complain. Data drives that much more. The devs see what players play and what they don't play, how well they do and how well they don't do. None of us really knows how strong the players are overall, across the entire playerbase. But the devs do, because they see how well we do the content, and ultimately the game is made for all of those players collectively.

    I'm not saying Variant 7 has the right difficulty or the wrong difficulty. What I am saying is that what has probably affected Variant 7's difficulty the most has been our track record on the other Variants, not forum complaints about difficulty being too high or low.
    Look I read all the complaints last year on how the game can improve. We asked Kabam to make sure we don't have too much attack, we can use many alternate champions, we wanted nodes that if we play right you get rewarded. That is exactly what variant 7 is for the most part. People are mad.
    I also read them. I also wrote them. I'm telling you I have direct knowledge that such feedback matters, but only when it aligns with the devs own interpretation of how the game is being played.

    Or to put it another way, what we say is feedback. But what we *do* is also feedback, and the devs listen to that feedback even more. It just isn't visible in a public forum for us to see as well.

    Here's an example. After 12.0 did Dr. Strange suck? The overwhelming public sentiment was that yes, he did, and no one wanted to bother with him anymore. However, I was a bit skeptical because the one piece of hard data that I possessed said the players as a whole disagreed: his rerun arena cutoff scores. They were significantly above average for a rerun post 12.0, and significantly above other champs believed to be underperforming.

    The devs know the publicly expressed sentiment, but they also have even better data than I have on how much he's actually pursued and used, or was back then. Which do you think the devs felt reflected Dr. Strange's true relative value among the playerbase as a whole back then. It was more the latter than the former. I'm not guessing.
    I got to disagree. Dr. Strange was a huge champ back in the day and people who didn't have him always wanted him which is why the arena scores was probably so high. That nerf made him practically useless. Back in the day regen was all the ragewhich is why Blade ran the game for so long, also SW, also Dr. Strange. That is no longer the case but when strange's regen was nerfed people stopped using him all together for the most part. Arena scores don't reflect that. When it comes to arena you got to factor in hype, prestige, utility, difficulty etc.
    The arena score was just one data point, as I said. The devs have the actual usage data, which showed that the players who said he was useless and thus not being used by anyone was wrong.

    The devs aren't going to come on the forums and correct people with graphs and charts. Instead they are just going to assume that the people who are absolutely certain something is happening that the game data says is definitely not happening simply have impaired judgment and thus lack credibility.

    I'm always puzzled when people assert certainty about things they can't possibly be certain about, while being judged by invisible people who have all the answers in the back of the book. It seems to me to be highly counterproductive if you're trying to convince those invisible people to listen to your ideas.
    I have a long history of being right when it comes to this game and I didn't need actual verified data to be right. To name multiple occasions that I've been right and are currently documented in my past history on the forums are the following.

    1) Champion 6.2 nerf
    2) Epic mods nerfs from AQ to hulk buster and the range of difficulty in said nodes.
    3) The original act 7 being nerfed. I was in the beta and told them that it needed to get scraped if the game wanted to continue at this pace. You were also in those threads but you may not remember me.

    There are others but that is a short few that you don't need verified evidence to claim, but if you play the game and have any type of knowledge on how certain changes can hurt the business it was clear and obvious what needed to change.

    When it comes to variants I'm good with this direction. The rewards truly outweigh the work which I will never have a problem with. The next thing that Kabam needs to do is make a Throne breaker difficulty for side events that are actually end game material. We need side events like the maze that is open to everybody but humbling to most. That will give end gamers the boost in ego which they're seeking and give up and coming guys something to strive for from a skill and roster perspective. When the maze dropped I wasn't good enough to do more than the initial run without using several revives and I actually never finished. At this time there's nothing in the game that can compare outside of pre act 6.
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