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My issue with Summer of Pain

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  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★

    I think SoP is fun. It is a challenge. It has good rewards. This is a game, so have fun and don’t fret so much.

    And I'm happy that you view it as such, but why is it so outrageous that people in my position don't get the challenging, fun content that we would think is fun and a challenge? Why do those concerns get brushed off as oh just do it with a 3*, or the rewards are good so why complain?
    I never said your opinion is outrageous, and I never said you have no right to ask for more hard content.

    What I said was that I liked it, and that IMO people shouldn't fret so much over a free mobile video game. If you aren't having fun, then do something else. Kabam is is no way obligated to keep players entertained 24 hours a day. And we should not expect them to.
    Oh, I’m sorry if my post implied you were saying that I meant it more as a general question. As there are reactions as though it is outrageous.

    Kabam run the game, and if enough people give feedback they aren’t enjoying some aspect then it may change. All I’m doing is presenting my view on that aspect, and hoping it changes. I love this game, I’ve played it a long time, so of course I’m invested in doing things I enjoy in the game.
  • Options
    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
  • Options
    ErcarretErcarret Posts: 2,816 ★★★★★
    This whole event seems to have been perfectly tailored for me, who became TB last month. I've found it hard-as-nails in an I-can-eventually-still-solo-these-fights kind of way. It takes hours or maybe days to find the right strategy but aside from the Mysterio fight I haven't used a bunch of resources on any opponent. I didn't particularly like Mr Sinister or Mysterio, but the other fights have been some of the most enjoyable fights I've had in the game.

    However, I'm not really an endgame player. Or, if maybe I am, then at least not a beyond-the-endgame player, which this was advertised as being for. I'm in the middle ground, between Cavalier players who find it frustratingly hard and late TBers who find it laughably easy.

    We are probably seeing a similar shift within the TB segment of the player base as we've seen in Cavalier, where there are several distinct groups of players lumped together who all have their own wants and needs despite being "at the same place" in their progression. There's a huge difference between where I am right now, as a new TB player, and where someone who became TB when it first came out last year is. If you've been fighting with mainly r3 6*s while I've been hacking away with mostly r5 5*s, of course we'll have different experiences and different expectations.

    I think one way to deal with this (if they don't exclude Cavs and make people like me the entry-level players) is to make the objectives tiered. Win the fight, get one point. Win the fight with a robot, get another. Win the fight with a 3* robot or some other crushingly hard objective, get a third. As it stands, I think everyone (me included) has been surprised at how easy the objectives have all been. I really expected much harder challenges and was very surprised to have earned every point except one so far (I still have that Shield one left this week).

    But I agree that it would be nice to have this kind of content permanent. One thing I've really liked about this SOP is that there are these individual fights. I really hate stuff like Abyss because I just can't be bothered with a ton of really difficult, really high-health pool fights in a row, but with SOP I could just clear boss after boss in my own time (within a week) and I found it immensely satisfying. I would love to see similar content get a permanent spot in the game instead of just these long and grueling endgame quests. I don't mind if you get the rewards only after you've completed all the fights - that's fair - but I just really love this system. It allows me to push myself against this kind of content without having to lock up my champions for a very long time.

    And if future single-boss content becomes permanent, there's nothing stopping Kabam from truly making them as nailbiting as people expected from this event. I wouldn't object. Maybe I wouldn't be able to handle them at the moment, but that'd be okay. They'd still be there when I could and that's all I could ask for.
  • Options
    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
  • Options
    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    I asked for a 4 star or even a 3 star objective and got disagreed to hell. Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players. They want to use the full length and breath of their 6 star roster. But, problem comes with the strength of the champions released in the last 2 years. They have a wide range of utility which makes any content only moderately difficult.

    If the challenge is gated to year specific champs, people will complain that it takes resources to rank them up just for 1 challenge, they complained about that for even a 4 star. So, at this point, Kabam cannot win either way. I am finding this content challenging and fun. Only issue I had with was sinister and only because I was too stubborn to turn off dex. Otherwise, its been very good.
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,235 ★★★★★
    pbeadle said:

    I’m old enough to remember the week everyone lost their minds when we had acid wash Mysterio and the forum was full of complaints about SoP being too hard.

    A couple of manageable fights later and now people are complaining they’re not being challenged enough.

    Are the fights over the top challenging for endgame players? Not really. Are they creative and unique challenges that require a little planning and thought and offer a fun way to explore what some unheralded champs can do? Absolutely. I got to bust out Mojo this week who I haven’t used in months outside of AW defense. Plus the rewards are amazing.

    This community can be ridiculously entitled sometimes. These devs just can’t win.

    To be clear, this post isn’t a knock against the content so much as it is how the content was hyped. Even on the current SoP quest it claims to be hard enough to make you want to throw your phone and it just fundamentally is not that.

    That’s okay! It doesn’t need to be that because it is still a genuinely fun piece of content. I’ve loved it and am very happy with it. It’s just not what we were expecting based on the marketing around it. I was expecting content that would push my 6* r3 champions, but instead I’m getting solos with 5* r4s. Again, still extremely enjoyable just not what I was expecting.

    I don’t want this to be seen as a complaint about SoP because it really is great content and the rewards that are with it are just top notch.

    I guess the best way of describing the feeling is if you go to a fancy restaurant that you only get to go to like once a year for your favorite meal. You’re all excited for it, you’ve been looking forward to it for ages. Then you get there and it’s not on the menu anymore. What you end up getting is still incredible, but it’s not the thing you were expecting and wanting. So you’re happy, but still feel like you’re missing something. I hope that makes sense, because I’ve just made myself very hungry.
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    pbeadle said:

    I’m old enough to remember the week everyone lost their minds when we had acid wash Mysterio and the forum was full of complaints about SoP being too hard.

    A couple of manageable fights later and now people are complaining they’re not being challenged enough.

    Are the fights over the top challenging for endgame players? Not really. Are they creative and unique challenges that require a little planning and thought and offer a fun way to explore what some unheralded champs can do? Absolutely. I got to bust out Mojo this week who I haven’t used in months outside of AW defense. Plus the rewards are amazing.

    This community can be ridiculously entitled sometimes. These devs just can’t win.

    To be clear, this post isn’t a knock against the content so much as it is how the content was hyped. Even on the current SoP quest it claims to be hard enough to make you want to throw your phone and it just fundamentally is not that.

    That’s okay! It doesn’t need to be that because it is still a genuinely fun piece of content. I’ve loved it and am very happy with it. It’s just not what we were expecting based on the marketing around it. I was expecting content that would push my 6* r3 champions, but instead I’m getting solos with 5* r4s. Again, still extremely enjoyable just not what I was expecting.

    I don’t want this to be seen as a complaint about SoP because it really is great content and the rewards that are with it are just top notch.

    I guess the best way of describing the feeling is if you go to a fancy restaurant that you only get to go to like once a year for your favorite meal. You’re all excited for it, you’ve been looking forward to it for ages. Then you get there and it’s not on the menu anymore. What you end up getting is still incredible, but it’s not the thing you were expecting and wanting. So you’re happy, but still feel like you’re missing something. I hope that makes sense, because I’ve just made myself very hungry.
    Yes, this articulates my point very well, while Summer of Pain was enjoyable for me, it hasn't been challenging. All I'm asking for is some content that challenges me and the 1% of players who want hard content like it, but that it is permanent so everyone can enjoy it when their time comes. That seems miles better than having no content that challenges the 1%, and instead just aiming everything at Cavs and early-mid TB
  • Options
    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★

    Pulyaman said:

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players.
    How is giving 1% players permanent content that is too hard for others at that moment in time screwing them over?

    That's the issue with the mindset of so many players, they think if it's not possible now then it's too hard and broken. There is nothing wrong with having some content that is too difficult for a lot of players, but they can progress to complete.

    A maze level event, that is relatively as difficult today as it was back then, would be the first time that Kabam have released an event that actually challenged that top 1% since the maze. Can you imagine if no content had come out that was aimed at your level for years? So tell me how that is fair, when there is no content aimed at the 1%.
    There is an issue with the mindset of all players depending on where you are in the game. How many times have we seen a post saying act 6 is trash and they were not going to explore it? With today's champs, act 6 has become relatively cheap to explore and still people refuse to explore that. Kabam wants to avoid that scenario again.

    For the top 1%, unless the next progression comes whether in terms of star level or in terms of title, you guys are basically stuck. You have won the game. Kabam cannot release content for the top 1% because there is no way to release content separately for them. Highest title right now is TB, content aimed at TB still was not satisfactory for you. People talk of the maze as an ultimate challenge. If released now, even that will be too easy because you guys have all the counters. So, they have to go the health and attack increase way, which again faced opposition in the past. So, its like chasing the horizon at this point. I think you have built something so tough and so fantastic in your mind, that any new challenge seems too easy.

    I would love a challenge that you are proposing as a permanent content. I think carina's challenge was supposed to be that. But, temporary content cannot be that. Especially something that lasts only a week. If you have any ideas on how to design this thing, then I would love to hear that too.
  • Options
    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    Ebony_Naw said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players.
    How is giving 1% players permanent content that is too hard for others at that moment in time screwing them over?

    That's the issue with the mindset of so many players, they think if it's not possible now then it's too hard and broken. There is nothing wrong with having some content that is too difficult for a lot of players, but they can progress to complete.

    A maze level event, that is relatively as difficult today as it was back then, would be the first time that Kabam have released an event that actually challenged that top 1% since the maze. Can you imagine if no content had come out that was aimed at your level for years? So tell me how that is fair, when there is no content aimed at the 1%.
    For the top 1%, unless the next progression comes whether in terms of star level or in terms of title, you guys are basically stuck. You have won the game. Kabam cannot release content for the top 1% because there is no way to release content separately for them. Highest title right now is TB, content aimed at TB still was not satisfactory for you. People talk of the maze as an ultimate challenge. If released now, even that will be too easy because you guys have all the counters. So, they have to go the health and attack increase way, which again faced opposition in the past. So, its like chasing the horizon at this point. I think you have built something so tough and so fantastic in your mind, that any new challenge seems too easy.
    There's a lot of merit to this argument. The problem, as stated above, is in the advertising. Kabam said this was a challenge for the top 1% and it plainly isn't. Had Kabam followed through, then any disappointment would be on players not being able to manage their expectations for content that isn't geared towards them. But the issue here is that Kabam overpromised and under delivered on one key metric- difficulty.

    Like you, I am having a relative blast with this content. Weeks like this force me to think outside the box because I don't have many options ranked up for two of the objectives (shield and villain + xl). So instead, I need to work on finetuning my play to the fight. If Kabam wants to produce more content like this, I say yes please. The issue is that the advertising misguided who the ideal target of the event was going to be.

    No one is "chasing the horizon" here. To loosely borrow the metaphor, I think the more appropriate terminology is that Kabam promised the horizon. Maybe we shouldn't believe them when they promise something that literally cannot be caught, but I can't blame people for being slightly let down by it.

    And to your final point, you're right. Building something like this is a difficult task, and permanent content might be the answer. I'm not sure how they build, but maybe a new level of variant is in order.
    They need to advertise like that, that's the point of advertising though. No one sold anything by saying "this thing might change your life" or "this is not the best product in the world, but its not as bad as others". Have we not seen them saying "Get ready for amazing deals" and see mediocre ones? How is anyone surprised at this point, I have no idea. :D
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players.
    How is giving 1% players permanent content that is too hard for others at that moment in time screwing them over?

    That's the issue with the mindset of so many players, they think if it's not possible now then it's too hard and broken. There is nothing wrong with having some content that is too difficult for a lot of players, but they can progress to complete.

    A maze level event, that is relatively as difficult today as it was back then, would be the first time that Kabam have released an event that actually challenged that top 1% since the maze. Can you imagine if no content had come out that was aimed at your level for years? So tell me how that is fair, when there is no content aimed at the 1%.
    There is an issue with the mindset of all players depending on where you are in the game. How many times have we seen a post saying act 6 is trash and they were not going to explore it? With today's champs, act 6 has become relatively cheap to explore and still people refuse to explore that. Kabam wants to avoid that scenario again.

    For the top 1%, unless the next progression comes whether in terms of star level or in terms of title, you guys are basically stuck. You have won the game. Kabam cannot release content for the top 1% because there is no way to release content separately for them. Highest title right now is TB, content aimed at TB still was not satisfactory for you. People talk of the maze as an ultimate challenge. If released now, even that will be too easy because you guys have all the counters. So, they have to go the health and attack increase way, which again faced opposition in the past. So, its like chasing the horizon at this point. I think you have built something so tough and so fantastic in your mind, that any new challenge seems too easy.

    I would love a challenge that you are proposing as a permanent content. I think carina's challenge was supposed to be that. But, temporary content cannot be that. Especially something that lasts only a week. If you have any ideas on how to design this thing, then I would love to hear that too.
    There absolutely is a way to release content for the 1%, release it, then allow players who cannot do it at that time to progress and then they can do it too.

    I'm not asking for Maze to be released as was, I'm very much aware nowadays those nodes are pretty outdated and wouldn't be too hard. It is the only frame of reference 1% players have, because it's the most recent time kabam decided to go full for it and release something tough for the community. Any time I mention the maze, it is in a relative sense, where it's not a 1-1 mapping of the nodes, but in terms of relative difficulty.

    Attack and health isn't the only way to go, as I've said before, Rogue fight was in the right direction, then it seems like Kabam tailed off with the difficulty.

    I haven't really put too much thought into exactly the structure of what this event would be, but I know permanent is something I have in mind, and that's less for me but more for other players lower down in progression than me so they can enjoy it too. If I was talking purely for myself, I don't mind permanent/temporary it makes no odds to me.
  • Options
    Jaymix79Jaymix79 Posts: 240 ★★★
    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.
  • Options
    The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 7,783 ★★★★★
    edited July 2021
    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Not really, it's only outdated for those who have done that content. The rest literally have to catch up to the top 1% and get their rewards so I don't see how it would be outdated unless Kabam are feeling humorous and keep the rewards as a 5 star crystal or something.

    Edit: I also just realised that maybe in terms of difficulty the content could become outdated by the time others caught up (due to new abilities, champions, interactions,etc) but usually something catered to the top 1% is usually optional and won't hamper anyone's progression in the future. Ex: Back in the day, Labyrinth was the end all, be all I believe but now, not many people do it and it's not hurting anyone's progression if they don't do it.
  • Options
    MrInsanityMrInsanity Posts: 1,539 ★★★★

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Not really, it's only outdated for those who have done that content. The rest literally have to catch up to the top 1% and get their rewards so I don't see how it would be outdated unless Kabam are feeling humorous and keep the rewards as a 5 star crystal or something.
    What about LOL and ROL, and the old variants?
  • Options
    The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 7,783 ★★★★★
    edited July 2021

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Not really, it's only outdated for those who have done that content. The rest literally have to catch up to the top 1% and get their rewards so I don't see how it would be outdated unless Kabam are feeling humorous and keep the rewards as a 5 star crystal or something.
    What about LOL and ROL, and the old variants?
    Read edit. I really wasn't thinking in that long terms but yea ig and I doubt anyone who was playing the game in 2015 and is playing it to this day seriously has been unable to catch up to Rol or Lol.
  • Options
    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★

    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players.
    How is giving 1% players permanent content that is too hard for others at that moment in time screwing them over?

    That's the issue with the mindset of so many players, they think if it's not possible now then it's too hard and broken. There is nothing wrong with having some content that is too difficult for a lot of players, but they can progress to complete.

    A maze level event, that is relatively as difficult today as it was back then, would be the first time that Kabam have released an event that actually challenged that top 1% since the maze. Can you imagine if no content had come out that was aimed at your level for years? So tell me how that is fair, when there is no content aimed at the 1%.
    There is an issue with the mindset of all players depending on where you are in the game. How many times have we seen a post saying act 6 is trash and they were not going to explore it? With today's champs, act 6 has become relatively cheap to explore and still people refuse to explore that. Kabam wants to avoid that scenario again.

    For the top 1%, unless the next progression comes whether in terms of star level or in terms of title, you guys are basically stuck. You have won the game. Kabam cannot release content for the top 1% because there is no way to release content separately for them. Highest title right now is TB, content aimed at TB still was not satisfactory for you. People talk of the maze as an ultimate challenge. If released now, even that will be too easy because you guys have all the counters. So, they have to go the health and attack increase way, which again faced opposition in the past. So, its like chasing the horizon at this point. I think you have built something so tough and so fantastic in your mind, that any new challenge seems too easy.

    I would love a challenge that you are proposing as a permanent content. I think carina's challenge was supposed to be that. But, temporary content cannot be that. Especially something that lasts only a week. If you have any ideas on how to design this thing, then I would love to hear that too.
    There absolutely is a way to release content for the 1%, release it, then allow players who cannot do it at that time to progress and then they can do it too.

    I'm not asking for Maze to be released as was, I'm very much aware nowadays those nodes are pretty outdated and wouldn't be too hard. It is the only frame of reference 1% players have, because it's the most recent time kabam decided to go full for it and release something tough for the community. Any time I mention the maze, it is in a relative sense, where it's not a 1-1 mapping of the nodes, but in terms of relative difficulty.

    Attack and health isn't the only way to go, as I've said before, Rogue fight was in the right direction, then it seems like Kabam tailed off with the difficulty.

    I haven't really put too much thought into exactly the structure of what this event would be, but I know permanent is something I have in mind, and that's less for me but more for other players lower down in progression than me so they can enjoy it too. If I was talking purely for myself, I don't mind permanent/temporary it makes no odds to me.
    I mean to say, how will you gate it for the top 1%. If a content is released today only for TB which cannot be completed by anyone other than the top 1%, I can guarantee that the forums will be flooded with complains and youtube will be filled with the same. Unless they can release a title which can actually filter out the elites, there is actually no way for them to do it without the backlash which is the last thing they want now.

    Asking people to be patient, build roster and tackle content is all good. But, people don't like to be told that they cannot do content. Unfortunately, the majority are not willing or not ready for those types of content. That is why I consider class gates were far ahead of their time. If Kabam had persisted with that, we could easily design a content permanent of temporary using 6 star class gates where even I will struggle to bring 4 champs of the same class at R3. The possibilities were endless there.
  • Options
    Jaymix79Jaymix79 Posts: 240 ★★★

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Not really, it's only outdated for those who have done that content. The rest literally have to catch up to the top 1% and get their rewards so I don't see how it would be outdated unless Kabam are feeling humorous and keep the rewards as a 5 star crystal or something.
    What about LOL and ROL, and the old variants?
    Read edit.
    Correct. Your edit is what I was referring to.

  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    Wicket329 said:

    theham said:

    The pinnacle of endgame contest was The Maze and we will never see that magic ever again. Times were different then. Piloting was big, buying cheap items was a thing, and overall game knowledge was very low.

    And it was difficult too..

    Purify Killmonger
    Powergain Heimdall
    Mephisto
    Korg
    IMIW
    Iceman
    Champion

    All tough fights because no one had all the tools. Proper counters were too new and too hard to get, so we used whatever **** we had.

    Power control, incinerate immune, korg counter, imiw counter, emma counter, iceman counter, buff control counter for champion. Easy now but 5*s were hard to get, we had a few rank 5s at the most and they were probably Blade and Stark Spidey.

    These days every endgamer knows what they're doing and has a fully ranked 5-man-team of EVERY TOOL. Back then we had one yellow number champ and then Blade, and almost no utility.

    If we want content like The Maze again, Kabam has to force us to use non-optimal attackers. Start with major attacker bans and build content around that. SOP is a welcome change but we have all the tools.

    This exactly. I totally disagree with the OP currently. The main problem is WE HAVE TOO MANY TOOLS.
    A lot of different answers to various problems. Lots of node interaction, a load of synergies, and ranked up options to nearly every issue.
    previously, we did not have that. Kabam are probably doing the best they can, to make it restrictive, but possible for both cavs and tbs. You have one week to find/rank up your counter or farm items to solve the challenge. Chances are, if you are an endgamer, you have the answer ranked up, or close to ranked up.
    everyone compares this to the maze and labyrinth, but nobody sees the new answers we have ranked now.
    difficulty is relative, and the absolute main issue is that we have too much intricacy in the game right now, and the only way to truly raise difficulty is to get attack to 50k and watch as folks complain.
    To this point, I’m curious if Kabam could gate champion entry into a quest by time of champion’s release? For example, a quest that is only available to or gives bonus rewards via objectives to 2018 champions. I suppose an easy way to do this would just to be to add a new tag to every champ in the game denoting their release year.

    I agree, the endgame players to box today is looking more like a full hardware store. We’ve got something for anything. This would be an interesting new way of grouping champions and limiting pools for content while still having a lot of variety. What do y’all think?
    This would work honestly. This is something i can get behind, especially with all the variant gems we get. And the buffs we are getting. Gate it by year and that increases the difficulty for sure. Great idea.
    Kabam cannot give these 1% top tier players difficult content without screwing up the other TB and cav players.
    How is giving 1% players permanent content that is too hard for others at that moment in time screwing them over?

    That's the issue with the mindset of so many players, they think if it's not possible now then it's too hard and broken. There is nothing wrong with having some content that is too difficult for a lot of players, but they can progress to complete.

    A maze level event, that is relatively as difficult today as it was back then, would be the first time that Kabam have released an event that actually challenged that top 1% since the maze. Can you imagine if no content had come out that was aimed at your level for years? So tell me how that is fair, when there is no content aimed at the 1%.
    There is an issue with the mindset of all players depending on where you are in the game. How many times have we seen a post saying act 6 is trash and they were not going to explore it? With today's champs, act 6 has become relatively cheap to explore and still people refuse to explore that. Kabam wants to avoid that scenario again.

    For the top 1%, unless the next progression comes whether in terms of star level or in terms of title, you guys are basically stuck. You have won the game. Kabam cannot release content for the top 1% because there is no way to release content separately for them. Highest title right now is TB, content aimed at TB still was not satisfactory for you. People talk of the maze as an ultimate challenge. If released now, even that will be too easy because you guys have all the counters. So, they have to go the health and attack increase way, which again faced opposition in the past. So, its like chasing the horizon at this point. I think you have built something so tough and so fantastic in your mind, that any new challenge seems too easy.

    I would love a challenge that you are proposing as a permanent content. I think carina's challenge was supposed to be that. But, temporary content cannot be that. Especially something that lasts only a week. If you have any ideas on how to design this thing, then I would love to hear that too.
    There absolutely is a way to release content for the 1%, release it, then allow players who cannot do it at that time to progress and then they can do it too.

    I'm not asking for Maze to be released as was, I'm very much aware nowadays those nodes are pretty outdated and wouldn't be too hard. It is the only frame of reference 1% players have, because it's the most recent time kabam decided to go full for it and release something tough for the community. Any time I mention the maze, it is in a relative sense, where it's not a 1-1 mapping of the nodes, but in terms of relative difficulty.

    Attack and health isn't the only way to go, as I've said before, Rogue fight was in the right direction, then it seems like Kabam tailed off with the difficulty.

    I haven't really put too much thought into exactly the structure of what this event would be, but I know permanent is something I have in mind, and that's less for me but more for other players lower down in progression than me so they can enjoy it too. If I was talking purely for myself, I don't mind permanent/temporary it makes no odds to me.
    I mean to say, how will you gate it for the top 1%. If a content is released today only for TB which cannot be completed by anyone other than the top 1%, I can guarantee that the forums will be flooded with complains and youtube will be filled with the same. Unless they can release a title which can actually filter out the elites, there is actually no way for them to do it without the backlash which is the last thing they want now.

    Asking people to be patient, build roster and tackle content is all good. But, people don't like to be told that they cannot do content. Unfortunately, the majority are not willing or not ready for those types of content. That is why I consider class gates were far ahead of their time. If Kabam had persisted with that, we could easily design a content permanent of temporary using 6 star class gates where even I will struggle to bring 4 champs of the same class at R3. The possibilities were endless there.
    I think that’s up to kabam, I don’t see anything wrong with gating for TB, it worked for gauntlet. And honestly I imagine it more gated behind skill rather than any title. I wouldn’t care if it was open to everyone and just tell everyone this will be hard, most actually won’t be able to do it. And generally, when the complaints come (as they inevitably will) most people point out how hard it’s supposed to be.

    As you said in the other thread, kabam just need to stick to their guns.
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Perhaps, but Abyss is still being done today for its rewards. I imagine something like that would work again
  • Options
    Jaymix79Jaymix79 Posts: 240 ★★★

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Perhaps, but Abyss is still being done today for its rewards. I imagine something like that would work again
    Honesty I feel like their business model has changed since Abyss was introduced. This game is more about the ‘now’ instead of the long play. Look at the events we have had recently. SOP, Gauntlet, etc.
    Kabam knows what they are doing to maximize their financial gains. These types of events are the future way.

  • Options
    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    Jaymix79 said:

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Perhaps, but Abyss is still being done today for its rewards. I imagine something like that would work again
    Honesty I feel like their business model has changed since Abyss was introduced. This game is more about the ‘now’ instead of the long play. Look at the events we have had recently. SOP, Gauntlet, etc.
    Kabam knows what they are doing to maximize their financial gains. These types of events are the future way.

    Because they are responding to the masses. No one wants to play the long game of building up and tackling content anymore. They want to become TB today even if they started the game last week. How many people actually explore story content before act 7?
  • Options
    The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 7,783 ★★★★★
    I think it's clear that Kabam will need to do class and rarity based restrictions to introduce content at the difficulty of what the top 1% want. It seems that Kabam are unable to create really hard content as is with all the new abilities, champions, interactions,etc. without it being borderline BS.

    Take some of the carinas challenges for example. From what I've seen, people seem to take the champion restrictions fairly well as long as they were fairly rewarded for it. So, I'm guessing Kabam would have to do something similar but notch up the difficulty to a higher level to give the top 1% their content. Or introduce Dyb Emma Frost with armor break immunity and 9 mill. hp
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Jaymix79 said:

    Jaymix79 said:

    Content created for the top 1% is usually outdated by the time everyone else catches up.

    Perhaps, but Abyss is still being done today for its rewards. I imagine something like that would work again
    Honesty I feel like their business model has changed since Abyss was introduced. This game is more about the ‘now’ instead of the long play. Look at the events we have had recently. SOP, Gauntlet, etc.
    Kabam knows what they are doing to maximize their financial gains. These types of events are the future way.

    But then you look at carina challenges and that’s permanent and long term. You might be right, and I definitely get how from a business point of view forcing someone through gauntlet over 10 days is gonna get you more unit purchases than if you allow them to take their time. I just hope we get something truly challenging at some point
  • Options
    grfvb said:

    just wait for last week challenge. kabam will probs put all 9 bosses back, give them GM-like abilities where u have to complete missions, add some ridic nodes, and fury-like second life and put time limit on the fight - that hopefully will satisfy the endgame players - fingers crossed tho 😖

    I hope not, that doesnt sound fun at all. The current SOP is perfect for what i'm looking for. It is engaging, allows multiple different creative ideas, and is free to keep trying and building skillsets.
  • Options
    TrashyPandaTrashyPanda Posts: 1,574 ★★★★★
    I feel the 'pain' should've come from the Objectives. The only way to make these fights more than a roster check is to force a playstyle that challenges certain skillsets.

    Well, not the only way, but you run the risk of making them 'unit-grab' fights if you do it more conventionally.

    The players were allowed to outgrow peak content, leaving only (the limited) variable content as a challenge. It was a big Whoops by Kabam. Only thing we can do is wait for the gap to shrink. Or for more variable content. Content that hopefully (personally speaking) isn't team-based.

    It sucks, yeah, but a company has to think profit first. They screwed up, but you can see that they're trying to remedy the situation. Hell, the SoP being Cav-capable might be part of the solution, as the rewards will probably create a lot of new TB -- just in time to save up for Black Friday.
This discussion has been closed.