I hate to say this, but SoP’s Rewards to Difficulty ratio is way too high

Crcrcrc

I love SoP so far, I think it’s been a wonderful event, and the rewards are awesome.

A bit too awesome at the moment

As of right now any cav players with mediocre skills or some unitd, even ones on 6.2, are going to receive 50% t5cc in selectors at the end. If the next 2 fights are close to the same difficulty, that will be 75% t5cc.

We are going to be having cav players working through 6.2 and beyond with a r3 6*, which are usually so difficult to obtain that it’s quickest to get abyss done. Nearly every cav player that has 6.4 done is guaranteed tb, and anyone before that is getting tb right with 6.4 completion.

Now, this sounds great for cavs, but in all reality it’s going to make late game progression even easier, which means that the next time we get hard content, there’ll be a lot more players who haven’t improved their skills enough and were carried through act 6 with a r3.

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

There’s not really a solution other than a nerf, which would be a HORRIBLE decision, so there’s not really any options left here.

I just wanted to do a quick explanation of why I think content like this needs either higher difficulty by a lot or less rewards, because it’s bad for the game as a whole.

DNA3000

Crcrcrc said:

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

It isn't really intended to be a rare title, but regardless most Cavs aren't going to become TB after SoP rewards go out because they will still need 6.4 completion, which contrary to what some people say is still a significant barrier for most players. What this will do is make the R3 hurdle extremely low for Cavs who live through SoP.

But once SoP is gone (and technically, in terms of T5CC it is already at the point where newly minted Cavs can't get high enough anymore) every player that reaches Cav afterwards will have the same hurdle as Cav players had before SoP. SoP's Cav2TB benefits are temporary.

_wasabi_

It seems to me that whatever Kabam does, its never good enough one way or the other.
Personally I think this is the best event we have had by far. Majority of the players can participate, no energy needed, one week to try the fights and practice.
Challenge is decent and what is even better, you can tweak it for yourself if you think its too easy or too hard.
Too hard? Farm some revives, use boosts and practice til you get it done, there's time.
Too easy? You have objectives. Still too easy? You can do it like MSD with 3 stars and flex.

As OP said, rewards are awesome and I for one appreciate this event a lot.
All things considered I really don't know how could they make it any better and I am not bothered by the fact that cavalier players will get some nice rewards out of it too.
Good for them.

BitterSteel

@Crcrcrc this is a really great point. I hadn’t even considered it. But when you said it I thought about my Second account that has been coasting through, barely completing objectives and now will be getting a class nexus and 2 t5cc. Now I know you’re speaking about Cavs, but for the most part, my second account has the roster depth of a Cav, and if I have the tools to do these fights on it, then so does someone else Cav, and I was only using the best counter I had, not pushing for objectives.

OGAvenger

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

It isn't really intended to be a rare title, but regardless most Cavs aren't going to become TB after SoP rewards go out because they will still need 6.4 completion, which contrary to what some people say is still a significant barrier for most players. What this will do is make the R3 hurdle extremely low for Cavs who live through SoP.

But once SoP is gone (and technically, in terms of T5CC it is already at the point where newly minted Cavs can't get high enough anymore) every player that reaches Cav afterwards will have the same hurdle as Cav players had before SoP. SoP's Cav2TB benefits are temporary.

Not sure where this particular data is coming from but up until this point getting a r3 seems to be a much more significant barrier for Cavs than Act 6 completion

ChaosMax1012

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

It isn't really intended to be a rare title, but regardless most Cavs aren't going to become TB after SoP rewards go out because they will still need 6.4 completion, which contrary to what some people say is still a significant barrier for most players. What this will do is make the R3 hurdle extremely low for Cavs who live through SoP.

But once SoP is gone (and technically, in terms of T5CC it is already at the point where newly minted Cavs can't get high enough anymore) every player that reaches Cav afterwards will have the same hurdle as Cav players had before SoP. SoP's Cav2TB benefits are temporary.

Considering all the revives we’ve been compensated, think that shouldn’t be much an issue

ChaosMax1012

last 2 weeks of SOP were UC level fights and help get players TB level rewards. Maybe kabam wants to release a new progression title?

ChaosMax1012

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

DNA3000

OGAvenger said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

It isn't really intended to be a rare title, but regardless most Cavs aren't going to become TB after SoP rewards go out because they will still need 6.4 completion, which contrary to what some people say is still a significant barrier for most players. What this will do is make the R3 hurdle extremely low for Cavs who live through SoP.

But once SoP is gone (and technically, in terms of T5CC it is already at the point where newly minted Cavs can't get high enough anymore) every player that reaches Cav afterwards will have the same hurdle as Cav players had before SoP. SoP's Cav2TB benefits are temporary.

Not sure where this particular data is coming from but up until this point getting a r3 seems to be a much more significant barrier for Cavs than Act 6 completion

Up to this point, it probably was, but even without SoP it is becoming less so. But either way, I don't think it is a big stretch to say that most Cavalier players at this moment are still working their way through Act 6, which means most of them cannot become TB after SoP even with the T5CC rewards.

It is possible there was a big pile up of Cavalier players who had completed Act 6 and were stuck without their first R3 when TB first arrived, but in all the time since TB was released the majority of such players should have gotten enough T5CC to form their first R3 by now. The vast majority of Cavalier players today cannot be a part of that group: they'd be TB by now. Most Cavalier players today would have to be either recently Cavalier and still working through Act 6, or would have to be not aggressively pushing for TB which makes it unlikely they've pushed through Act 6 quickly.

Bugmat78

ChaosMax1012 said:

last 2 weeks of SOP were UC level fights and help get players TB level rewards. Maybe kabam wants to release a new progression title?

Sadly I predict this is what will happen by the end of 7.4 - Time Conqueror or some such kang-linked jazz.

H3t3r

Add another title. Requirement 5 r3 6* or maybe more.

_wasabi_

Bugmat78 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

last 2 weeks of SOP were UC level fights and help get players TB level rewards. Maybe kabam wants to release a new progression title?

Sadly I predict this is what will happen by the end of 7.4 - Time Conqueror or some such kang-linked jazz.

I don't mind the new title at all I just hope they won't lock it behind r4 6 star, that would really tick me off!

DNA3000

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

Dontsellthem

Anyway we can get 3mil gold added to the milestones? Thanks 😊

Greekhit

_wasabi_ said:

Bugmat78 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

last 2 weeks of SOP were UC level fights and help get players TB level rewards. Maybe kabam wants to release a new progression title?

Sadly I predict this is what will happen by the end of 7.4 - Time Conqueror or some such kang-linked jazz.

I don't mind the new title at all I just hope they won't lock it behind r4 6 star, that would really tick me off!

Don’t put your hopes up too much, because that’s more likely what is going to happen.
It’s pretty sure the next progress tier will be locked behind the 6* r4 requirement.
It worked great in the near past, as a monetising tool, and it will work again, and that’s not necessarily bad for either sides, both Kabam and players.
Only thing the devs need to be careful, is for ftp to have access to all materials needed to r4 a character through content, by the time the requirement goes live.

dot_ditto

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

It isn't really intended to be a rare title, but regardless most Cavs aren't going to become TB after SoP rewards go out because they will still need 6.4 completion, which contrary to what some people say is still a significant barrier for most players. What this will do is make the R3 hurdle extremely low for Cavs who live through SoP.

But once SoP is gone (and technically, in terms of T5CC it is already at the point where newly minted Cavs can't get high enough anymore) every player that reaches Cav afterwards will have the same hurdle as Cav players had before SoP. SoP's Cav2TB benefits are temporary.

As a Cav player myself, and one that hasn't completed Act 6.. (or Abyss, or most Variants) ... I'll be the first to admit, I'm a casual player, with mediocre skills. (I've also never been 1 to complain/cry about content being "too hard" ... )

but I do tend to agree with this assessment .. I've managed to clear/solo almost every boss in SoP .. I deliberately skipped Mysterio ... tried him once or twice, and just said "Nope!".
So I'm sitting on a nice T5CC 25% selector coming up (maybe 2 if the next fight is doable - fingers crossed).

And yes, that'll mean I'll have a 6* R3 soon, and I'm currently working on 6.4.3

I don't see it as a bit "issue" ... what's funny, is it was mentioned before the 6* R3 barrier was "dumb" .. and I agreed .. it's the main reason, I never really pushed to complete Act 6 .. why bother ? I'm not going to throw all my resources away for that .. just wasn't worth it "to me". (might be worth it to others ... but each their own!! )

I'm glad I have the chance of getting a 6* R3 first, and get that (dumb) barrier out of the way ... now I just have to focus on the story mode, and the grandmaster ... it's still gonna be hard for me ... but now it's at least got some prize at the end of it to make it worth while.

So yeah, I gotta agree with DNA here, I don't see it being that significant, really, to Cavs to get to thronebreaker as far as skill cap goes ... we gonna have it or not .. we're gonna clear things at our pace, or not .. or throw units at things ... or not.

In my honest opinion, the whole argument of "skill progression" in this game is a bit overshadowed by the fact, you can literally get through almost all content (1 or 2 exceptions for sure) by simply using something silly like Juggernaut and throwing a butt-load of units/revives at the problem .. :P (so much for your skill progression .. LOL )

_wasabi_

Greekhit said:

_wasabi_ said:

Bugmat78 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

last 2 weeks of SOP were UC level fights and help get players TB level rewards. Maybe kabam wants to release a new progression title?

Sadly I predict this is what will happen by the end of 7.4 - Time Conqueror or some such kang-linked jazz.

I don't mind the new title at all I just hope they won't lock it behind r4 6 star, that would really tick me off!

Don’t put your hopes up too much, because that’s more likely what is going to happen.
It’s pretty sure the next progress tier will be locked behind the 6* r4 requirement.
It worked great in the near past, as a monetising tool, and it will work again, and that’s not necessarily bad for either sides, both Kabam and players.
Only thing the devs need to be careful, is for ftp to have access to all materials needed to r4 a character through content, by the time the requirement goes live.

It is a possibility, sure, we can only speculate and wait and see. I do not think though personally that they would do that. I rather think next title will be in early act 8 which will be accessible with 6 star champions only and that would be enough of a requirement in my opinion. r4 mats are way too new to be hiding content behind them, but as i said, just speculating, time will tell.

Crcrcrc

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

DNA3000

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.

ChaosMax1012

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

Point being they made CAV much easier when the difficulty was fine as it were. They made getting TB significantly more easier now with SOP.

_wasabi_

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

Isn't the "Abyss stared back" title meant to be for most skilled tiny group of players?
I thought it was. I don't think Cav or TB are meant to be something to flex with.

Crcrcrc

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.

That’s actually an odd way of thinking of it because progressional games almost always have a small group in the final area, whereas finite games always have nearly everyone in the endgame.

ChaosMax1012

_wasabi_ said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

Isn't the "Abyss stared back" title meant to be for most skilled tiny group of players?
I thought it was. I don't think Cav or TB are meant to be something to flex with.

The flex title currently is breaker of thrones for exploring act 6 i think

_wasabi_

ChaosMax1012 said:

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

Point being they made CAV much easier when the difficulty was fine as it were. They made getting TB significantly more easier now with SOP.

But why does that bother you? Isn't it better when those behind catch up and the gap between players is smaller? I don't mind if cavaliers become TB tiny bit easier, they still have to complete Act 6 anyway.
All the items, catalyst, daily crystals and what have you depreciate in value over time. If you achieved TB 6 months ago, you will be way ahead of those who just gonna get the title anyway. So why care?

Agent_X_zzz

Agreed, these rewards are easily better then act 6 exploration which is id say quite a bit harder. Agreed that the rewards to difficulty ratio is questionable

Crcrcrc

Swen said:

Do not compare summer of pain to abyss. Summer of pain is much easier than abyss. Maybe you can compare it to labyrinth

I never did. I said tb was originally only obtainable through incredibly hard content such as Act 6 exploration or Abyss, and SoP is making it incredibly easy to get the r3 needed

ChaosMax1012

_wasabi_ said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

SlumpGod said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

I did cav pre nerf, it was never difficult.

Point being they made CAV much easier when the difficulty was fine as it were. They made getting TB significantly more easier now with SOP.

But why does that bother you? Isn't it better when those behind catch up and the gap between players is smaller? I don't mind if cavaliers become TB tiny bit easier, they still have to complete Act 6 anyway.
All the items, catalyst, daily crystals and what have you depreciate in value over time. If you achieved TB 6 months ago, you will be way ahead of those who just gonna get the title anyway. So why care?

Most players who became TB had to earn the title. SOP takes away from that feat. I’m grabbing the easiest 2 t5cc selectors for fights i dont find a challenge. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Had to explore v5, complete 6.4, 7.1, 7.2, explore CAV EQ, and grab the t5cc frags from the odin event to form 1 t5cc. Now all i have to do to grab 2 of my choice is beat UC level content? Seems odd to me. Mysterio was a pretty good challenge, same with rogue, but i found the rest pretty easy (excluding this week, haven’t done it yet).

DNA3000

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.

That’s actually an odd way of thinking of it because progressional games almost always have a small group in the final area, whereas finite games always have nearly everyone in the endgame.

That's completely orthogonal. The number of players in whatever happens to be the highest progressional tier tends to be relatively small at the time that tier opens but the specific reason for making new progressional tiers is when the number of players in that tier becomes large enough to support a bifurcation.

I don't think you mean the same thing I mean when I talk about "finite games." Everyone isn't in the end game in a finite game. Everyone *leaves* when they reach the end of a finite game, because at that point the game is over. If you want players to stick around, there has to be something to do. If they are not progressing upwards, because there's no more progress, they have to be doing something else productive. The most common thing people do in games where progress stops is shift to PvP, where competition replaces content-driven progress. That is not a finite game. That is a game that replaces content-driven progress with competition ladders.

If you have a game that has a fixed finite number of progressional tiers, and you declare the top one to be the "elite tier" that you don't expect most players to ever achieve, then for the vast majority of your players this tier doesn't really exist. The game becomes a game with N-1 progressional tiers. And if the end game only exists at the top tier, then everyone else runs out of things to do eventually and quits. The alternative is to make two different end games, one for the elite players and a separate one for everyone else. That's possible, but in my opinion unless you're dealing with a dev team full of creative savants, it is also completely dumb.

I can say one thing with absolute certainty: this game is not that kind of game. The progressional tiers that the progress titles demarcate are all true progressional tiers. They are intended for the playerbase to progress through. None of them are, or ever were intended to be "elite titles" that represented the final goal of the game. If you think this game is supposed to have such a thing, I'm afraid you're never going to see such a thing in the game. Except maybe when the game finally dies.

dot_ditto

Swen said:

Do not compare summer of pain to abyss. Summer of pain is much easier than abyss. Maybe you can compare it to labyrinth

As a Cavalier .. who has completed: Realm of Legends, 1 or 2 Variants ..
but hasn't completed labyrinth (I have done a few test runs ... ) ...

no, you can't even compare SoP to Labyrinth .. *maybe* compare it to Realm of Legends ...

I was not expecting to be able to handle many fights in SoP .. and so far, the only fight I skipped was Mysterio ... I've solo'd the rest .. which is fightfully surprising!! O.o

Even I'll say, it shouldn't be this easy .. LOL

(but same time, I'll take it! That 25% t5cc selector is .. sweeeet )

Genotelli

Honestly just shut the hell up and play who cares if the end content is easier for the newer players! Just focus on yourself and if u think the rewards are too much don’t play it…

ChaosMax1012

walkerdog said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Lol 6.1 was barely touched. Cav was never hard aside from having 2-3 counters.

That crossbones got robbed.