I hate to say this, but SoP’s Rewards to Difficulty ratio is way too high

ChiliDog

SwarmOfRavens said:

ChiliDog said:

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:

The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.

I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc

T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

T5CC is random*

*If you chose to ignore the 100%+ selectors we have available in content.

I said people that are at/near the same level of content can have different titles just due to rng. I am not talking about the guy that completed abyss and the guy who didn't. That's a totally different discussion.

Worknprogress

ChaosMax1012 said:

_wasabi_ said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

Isn't the "Abyss stared back" title meant to be for most skilled tiny group of players?
I thought it was. I don't think Cav or TB are meant to be something to flex with.

The flex title currently is breaker of thrones for exploring act 6 i think

There is no "flex" title since they didn't issue a title l for exploring the original iteration of Act 6 like lots of us that had done so wanted. Instead we got a handful of revives and potions to let expire after the nerfs

Rahultripathi

Honestly all the complaints I hear in this forums feels like it’s pogo channels forums with kids crying about something or the other. If the game is too easy, than move on, take a needle go to olympics and start hitting bullseyes. If the game is too hard start working on your skill you cant become expert in few days in this game and skill level varies in this game for even the top level. When you think rewards are too less than skip content, for example variant 1 but if rewards is generous stop complaining, I can say as a FTP show some gratitude because with these rewards you can always pay to get them.

DNA3000

ChiliDog said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

ChiliDog said:

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:

The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.

I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc

T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

T5CC is random*

*If you chose to ignore the 100%+ selectors we have available in content.

I said people that are at/near the same level of content can have different titles just due to rng. I am not talking about the guy that completed abyss and the guy who didn't. That's a totally different discussion.

The Abyss is not the only place where T5CC selectors exist, and now we even have T5C fragment nexus crystals that give additional agency to players to direct their fragments.

One individual fragment crystal might be random, just like one air molecule can be random. But planes still fly and people still breathe. Randomness evens out when you have enough stuff. And at this point there's enough T5CC flowing into the game that anyone who thinks they are a victim of randomness in T5CC is just not earning enough of them to even out the odds. And such people are therefore not doing enough of the kinds of things borderline Cav/TB players ought to be doing to progress to the next higher tier as quickly as they think they deserve to.

If you want to get to X, you can walk there or you can run there. But you can't demand to be carried there because you are the most skilled stepper in the world. The game sets the rules of progress and the players follow those rules to achieve progress. That's what it means to play a game. Or you can complain the rules are not to your liking while everyone else steps over you on their way to greener pastures.

ChiliDog

DNA3000 said:

ChiliDog said:

Title progression should not be locked behind character progression. It should be 100% story. The rest is rng.

Sounds nice on paper, but its a mess in practice. If story progress was the only gate to overall progress, that would place strict limits on the difficulty of story arc content. But we don't have and will likely never have tons of story arc content that would allow for multiple diverse advancement paths through the game, like say an MMO might. So the story content would arbitrarily roadblock a lot of players.

The players who tend to advocate for this tend to be higher skill lower activity players: players who think demonstrations of skill should eliminate the need to spend time advancing in the game, completely coincidentally because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. However, games that target this tend to end up being a lot more niche, because the vast majority of humans can't fit into that mold.

Roster growth might have a random component, but it also is primarily a function of time. Anyone can build a strong roster given enough time. By making progress dependent on both content progress and roster progress, and balancing all other parts of the game around the combination of both, the game becomes a lot more friendly to a wider audience, because it can now accommodate a wider range of players with differing levels of skill and time to burn.

What should the game do? It should try to balance meaningful progress with wide appeal, and I think it does a decent job at that. For the most part, I would rather play this game than most alternate reality versions of the game that would have followed most other people's ideas of what it should be instead.

Idk, I just think if you have 2 people that just beat the GM or they just beat 7.1 or 7.2 or whatever in story and 1 is TB and the other not due to a couple 10% random t5cc being favorable, it's not a good indicator of anything but luck. As I said in other posts, this isn't comparing the guy who finished abyss (or his buddy that dropped $200 to do it). This is about rng having a factor in progression. Oh well, more will be TB after te next cyber Monday anyway. $$$$>luck.

Lpoo

I am cav and this seems easier than some chapter 6 bosses. Obviously, I appreciate the rewards, and they are potentially account changing. But it does feel like a gimme

Hoitado

As a Cavalier Player Myself I feel that it should be harder because I mean 50% of a T5CC is INSANE especially when I’m just on 6.3 and I already have 25% of one and an eligible Rank 3 Champion. But hey I’m not complaining.

Deacon

Masterpuff said:

Where da pain at

LMAO

TitoBandito187

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

1) this game has no end goal. The carrot stick just keeps moving.

2) TB is just a current title, not the end title.. it's only special now because it's the most recent, but it's been out awhile now. Anyone who plays long enough will get it. Been TB since December, have 💯 7.2 and all variants but V1. But haven't explored Act 6 cause it's a drag, not cause it's too hard. I'll do it when I a team of R6* R5 though... Speed through just to get it done at that point, like some CAVs will speed to TB from this.

Oh, and don'tt forget Kabam gave away 6* for cash when they were still hard to 9btain for many. Eventually, it's not just the champs that become easier to get, but also the resources. T5CC is starting to be easier now that the new t3A and T6CC is a thing.

3) What seems like end game now, is not as flashy or unattainable in a year or two. Everyone is drooling over R3s now and chomping at a chance for the first R4. But guess what? We've seen this before. Do you even care when you R3 a 5* now?

4) DNA, everything you accomplish is progression based in this game. I guess you're referring to the titles from story mode though. Taking that aside, there are quite a few titles that only the top of the top have .. legend, mythic, Consigliere, war champion, the original legend. Lots of time was spent on titles only a small group can obtain. And if Kabam can make tons of money by creating a new one (at least one that will matter for awhile), you can bet they're going to do it again... That's what has happened with every title in story mode so far.

ChiliDog

DNA3000 said:

ChiliDog said:

SwarmOfRavens said:

ChiliDog said:

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:

The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.

I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc

T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

T5CC is random*

*If you chose to ignore the 100%+ selectors we have available in content.

I said people that are at/near the same level of content can have different titles just due to rng. I am not talking about the guy that completed abyss and the guy who didn't. That's a totally different discussion.

The Abyss is not the only place where T5CC selectors exist, and now we even have T5C fragment nexus crystals that give additional agency to players to direct their fragments.

One individual fragment crystal might be random, just like one air molecule can be random. But planes still fly and people still breathe. Randomness evens out when you have enough stuff. And at this point there's enough T5CC flowing into the game that anyone who thinks they are a victim of randomness in T5CC is just not earning enough of them to even out the odds. And such people are therefore not doing enough of the kinds of things borderline Cav/TB players ought to be doing to progress to the next higher tier as quickly as they think they deserve to.

If you want to get to X, you can walk there or you can run there. But you can't demand to be carried there because you are the most skilled stepper in the world. The game sets the rules of progress and the players follow those rules to achieve progress. That's what it means to play a game. Or you can complain the rules are not to your liking while everyone else steps over you on their way to greener pastures.

One air molecule can be random....you reaching deep. This entire thread is people complaining that it is too easy to become TB now and to nerf rewards. These rewards take randomness out of it, so trust me...I'm not complaining. They are.

Hoitado

Although this event gives good t5cc selectors, ThroneBreaker is still hard to achieve. Remember that Act 6 Requires a lot of counters to certain fights so you can’t expect one 6* Rank 3 to counter everything. And not to mention that many New Cavalier Players still can’t do this type of content so they will miss out.

naikavon

I do not claim to know the motivations of the kabam devs, but I will say, in many other progressional games the devs do this sort of thing on purpose.

The reasoning as explained to me was devs don't want new players coming into their game and thinking the climb to the top is insurmountable. Often newer players are sort of fast tracked while older players' progression remains relatively flat. In other games it is by design

There are many reasons for this, devs want newer players to stick around and a slow grindy march up the ladder is a big turn off to new players. New players mean new money.

Meanwhile, the top progression is flatter, normally waiting on content so spending is urged to "stay on top".

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this were the case here with kabam, it's pretty SOP (standard operating procedure).

But again, I don't know this to be fact just going off what has been my experience and told to me.

The_Sentry06

People need to wake up and understand that everything that other people's accounts get indirectly affects our accounts and Kabam's decisions when issuing various rewards. Not everything is about jealousy and those commens are really hilarious and miss everyone's point.

Wicket329

ChriissR said:

Can't wait to get a Emma Frost with Armor Break immunity, Mix Master/tunnel vision, oscillate, kinetic transferance, Tyranny and true Focus and watch these forums complain at how hard it is.

This is not a difficult fight. Emma isn’t a villain, and so would be power locked. Any champion with a good evade/miss counter could just go to town on her in the corner. If it’s Mix Master, Apoc would have a blast. Or Falcon could do it. Really there’s no limit.

Anyway, the concern here is not about individuals, it’s about the economy of the game. I don’t know that I agree with OP, but I don’t know that I don’t. Kabam is definitely being more generous with t5cc lately. They are also putting the materials out there for r4 6* champions. I imagine these things are related.

OP’s concerns are perfectly valid, but I think we’ll just have to wait and see what comes next to determine if this is good or bad for the longevity of the game.

hungryhungrybbq

I don't think it's a problem. That's what content is for. To allow players a chance to earn rewards and progress. Yeah?

And as to the "sail through act 6 with an r3" part. I think they'll find that there won't be any sailing when it comes to exploration. Act 6 was (at least pre-nerf) about roster diversity. One r3 won't cover all the bases. And won't help at all in the 5 star class gated paths. Aside from the nerfs, those paths will always maintain their intended difficulty because of the 5 star gates. Which I like actually. The notion of "ehn.. I'll wait til have OP 6 star champs to explore act 6.." doesn't actually work in these cases.

xNig

Crcrcrc said:

I love SoP so far, I think it’s been a wonderful event, and the rewards are awesome.

A bit too awesome at the moment

As of right now any cav players with mediocre skills or some unitd, even ones on 6.2, are going to receive 50% t5cc in selectors at the end. If the next 2 fights are close to the same difficulty, that will be 75% t5cc.

We are going to be having cav players working through 6.2 and beyond with a r3 6*, which are usually so difficult to obtain that it’s quickest to get abyss done. Nearly every cav player that has 6.4 done is guaranteed tb, and anyone before that is getting tb right with 6.4 completion.

Now, this sounds great for cavs, but in all reality it’s going to make late game progression even easier, which means that the next time we get hard content, there’ll be a lot more players who haven’t improved their skills enough and were carried through act 6 with a r3.

Tb is also going to no longer be a very rare title, because most cavs are going to be getting it after SoP.

There’s not really a solution other than a nerf, which would be a HORRIBLE decision, so there’s not really any options left here.

I just wanted to do a quick explanation of why I think content like this needs either higher difficulty by a lot or less rewards, because it’s bad for the game as a whole.

4-5 year veterans have been feeling that way since 3 years ago…

Wu_Bangerz23

100% agree....I'm cav....I'm on 6.3.1 (I also have 50% of multiple t5 cats) but I have no worthy champs I would consider r3....not just to be TB. The content has been extremely easy....but....who cares? Is what they give out in any way, shape or form going to change your life or how you play the game?

GroundedWisdom

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:

TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.

Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.

All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.

There is no end goal with this game. Thronebreaker isn't that new anymore, and it's only a matter of time before T5CCs become more available. You also have to do the content (although there's no accounting for content rushers) as well as make your Roster choices. Eventually TB will be the new Cav and something else will be the goal. There is no actual "End Game" with MCOC. If there were, that would be the end of the game.

Wu_Bangerz23

And kabam is a business.....more players that are TB means more money....I'd be pushing my player base towards that sweet spot too

Ercarret

I don't really see too much of an issue here. These fights aren't an easier source of t5cc fragments than other content available to Cavs, save for stuff like Abyss. It is amount-wise, but not skill-wise. If you can consistently beat the bosses, you can clear the variants, meaning you still have the skills to earn t5cc the "normal way" anyway. I guess I could agree that maybe the fourth milestone would have been a better cut-off point for cavs, but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. If cav players can beat all of these bosses and the Grandmaster, I have absolutely no problem with them becoming TB.

With that being said, I think it could be a good thing to not be able to r3 6* champions until after they've beaten the Grandmaster. I have absolutely no problems with cavs having increased avenues of earning t5cc but actually r3'ing champs should be an Act 6 Completion privilege, I feel.

doctorb

_wasabi_ said:

It seems to me that whatever Kabam does, its never good enough one way or the other.
Personally I think this is the best event we have had by far. Majority of the players can participate, no energy needed, one week to try the fights and practice.
Challenge is decent and what is even better, you can tweak it for yourself if you think its too easy or too hard.
Too hard? Farm some revives, use boosts and practice til you get it done, there's time.
Too easy? You have objectives. Still too easy? You can do it like MSD with 3 stars and flex.

As OP said, rewards are awesome and I for one appreciate this event a lot.
All things considered I really don't know how could they make it any better and I am not bothered by the fact that cavalier players will get some nice rewards out of it too.
Good for them.

I just hope going forward that kabam makes all side events energy free so players can practice hard contents and get better.

KDoggg2017

I've been TB for ages. It doesn't feel exclusive to me at all these days.
I love the SOP event. Love the rewards.
And I'm happy for any Cav player that it helps.

Bring on more content like this bcuz I love the 1 week format! 👍

xNig

The ironic part about this thread is, not too long ago, we’ve had people complaining that A6 is too hard and needed a nerf.

Kabam rethought their design direction and now we have people complaining that content is too easy and are asking for harder ones.

🤷🏻‍♂️