The Smartest Man in the Battlerealm: smarter than he's supposed to be?

Why is it so hard to stop Mr Fantastic Evading?

It seems that if you don't use True Accuracy or Slow, other methods just don't work. Certainly, ability accuracy reduction doesn't.

Mr Fantastic is supposed to accrue a mere 5% chance to Evade per debuff on the opponent.

Playing with Void, I got wrecked in AW recently because he Evaded me when he had two Agility debuffs on him (-60% Evade ability) and I had a single SP1 debuff (+5% Evade ability) That really shouldn't be possible, based on any reasonable mathematics. Should it?

Looking into this, it's clearly fairly well known that Falcon doesn't prevent Mr Fantastic from Evading. There are loads of threads on it in the Bugs and Known Issues thread (none that I can see have ever been commented on by a mod):

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/255347/mr-fantastic-evading-falcon
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/258457/aq5-mr-fantastic-evading-falcon
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1664125#Comment_1664125
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/235285/falcon-against-mr-fantastic
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/234803/falcon-not-preventing-evade
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/249371/cavallier-mr-fantastic-evading-falcon

Well, clearly Void can't stop Mr Fantastic Evading either. That's two pretty solid Evade counters out of the window.

I've done a few practice runs against Mr F since then with Awakened Black Widow and Electra; both of whom should reduce his defensive ability accuracy by 85% (at least whilst Electra kept him bleeding). Neither seemed to actually reduce his Evasion.

So I think the current way Reed's coding is written means that Mr F's 5% to Evade ability isn't simply an 'Evade': it's functioning as 'Enhanced Evade', like the node of the same name. Again, there are threads about Spidey Evading Falcon when he's placed on an 'Enhanced Evade' or 'Enhanced Abilities' node (https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1773105/#Comment_1773105). Well, for Mr Fantastic, this appears to be hardwired into him.

Uniquely, in the cast of Evasion champs, Reed's base chance to Evade is 0%, but his own abilities increase it by 5% per debuff on the opponent. It seems that the increase is applied after any AAR has happened. This means that Reed's Evade ability is functionally immune to ability accuracy reduction.

Now: I could live with that, if it was one of his abilities. He is 'The Smartest Man in the Battlerealm' after all. But it isn't (at least, not officially). And when you're using a champion with an ability that specifically targets Evasion (like Void does with his Ability debuff) you kind of expect it to work on everyone who Evades...

Could one of the mods please take this back to the team? I don't mind much how it gets resolved; but could it either be acknowledged as a bug that needs to be fixed OR recognised by adding a line of text to Mr F, stating his Evade is immune to AAR?

Thanks!

Thoughts from the community below -

Keep it as it is? (For occasional nasty surprises for people who aren't expecting it)
Keep it, but acknowledge in Reed's description that his Evade isn't affected by AAR?
Recode it so that AAR takes effect after his Evade ability is calculated?

Comments

Jaded

#JustUseElsa 😉

odishika123

#ElsaBestCounter

Unless the 1st evade gets you killed...

Fluffy_paws

AAR does work for me with AA but I'm not sure if that's probably because he prevents the sp1 debuffs and therefore no extra ability accuracy

I didn't know Falcon didn't work though... always assumed he would.

Magrailothos

@Jaded
@odishika123

I love Elsa. First and only skill R3.

And for most quests she'd definitely be the second best option (#SheHulkisAwesome)

But you've only got three slots for Alliance Wars. I wanted to deal with Evade champs and to bring someone Incinerate immune to help with the Bishop Boss. Void had seemed like a reasonable option at the time.

Anyway, moving back to the point of the thread... Should Reed actually do this, or not...?

Moosetiptronic

@Kabam Zibiit any views on this?

On a somewhat related point, as a r2 fantastic owner, I guess I need to place him more intelligently in war defence!

Paper_Tissue

Sorry, it's for debuffs on either champ, not just on the opponent. And Void's debuffs aren't damaging themselves, the damage comes from Void's own abilities, as it would with Weakness or a Stun applied by him.

Magrailothos

The first half of that comment is a fair point. And very easy to forget (which I did!). However, you're missing the point that I was talking about Void's Agility debuffs, which do this:

So:
Base chance =0%
1 debuff on me (SP1), 2 (Agility) debuffs on Reed = +15% chance to Evade.
2 Ability debuffs on Reed = -60% chance to Evade

My problem is that a sum total of 0%+15%-60% shouldn't yield a positive integer.
But it does: Reed Evades.

It's either a bug, or it's Working as Intended. I'd just like to clarify which, and will then happily live with the situation either way.

AverageDesi

It's ability accuracy of evade that is reduced . Not evade chance. So he stil has 40% of 15% chance left. Which is what...6%chance to evade.

Didn't read full thread so point out if I missed ingo

Jaded

I’m not a mathematician but wouldn’t the chance to evade be 6%?

15% chance to evade * 60% = 6% chance to evade?

Magrailothos

That's possible @Jaded

As I explained, I also tried it with one debuff and 85% reduction from Black Widow. Will you take it on faith that he Evaded more than 0.75% of the time?

And what's your explanation for Falcon's Lock-On failing? Reduces ability accuracy by 100%...

Jeal79

Is it a matter of what came first?

Like you said, his base rate of evade is 0%. Applying any AAR to 0% is still 0%.

What if Ability Accuracy is a constantly fluctuating number?... Like debuffs are applied after the AAR therefore Reed gets the 5% evade chance per debuff...

I suppose this could be tested with Falcon by applying lock-on AFTER debuffs have been applied - the theory being that Reed starts at 0%, gains 5-10% through debuffs applied, Falcon triggers lock and this should reduce back to 0%....though any new debuffs would increase this evade chance even if lock is still active.

It's something I might have a play around with and test

AverageDesi

For Falcon coathang3r gave the xplanation that Falcon reduces his base evade chance when he applies lock on. So doing it total 0%. Then MF starts increasing evade chance per debuff

Jaded

Does the evade not come before the hit? Falcon has to land a hit to reduce abilities, if they evade first then no physical contact is made hence no AAR applied. Plus what @AverageDesi mentions.

BW og still gives up plenty. 15%*15%=2.5% chance to evade with 3 debuffs.

Magrailothos

I think that's Exactly the issue. What comes first.

Your theory about constant fluctuation isn't it: I just ran a Duel (duel target hhadess) and didn't apply Lock On till after I had an SP1 debuff. He still Evaded. Nice idea, though 😉

Jeal79

Damn. It's a mystery I'm keen to solve though. I'll keep thinking

Magrailothos

No, Falcon doesn't have to land a hit to reduce AAR any more than OG BW does. He just needs a point in time at which a hit would occur; which is when both Evade and DAAR are calculated.

And Black Widow (with one debuff like I said) is 5% (one debuff) x 15% = 0.75% chance to Evade.

Try it for yourself, and see if you think it's closer to 5% or 0.75%?
Here's a Duel Target, hhadess

H3t3r

Ghost easy peasy

Jaded

I used my maxed out 5* OG BW sig 200 and practiced on my r2 duped MrF. No evades even took sp1 to the face on purpose and nothing.

Used my 5*r4 duped falcon on the same MrF and no evade occurred.

Magrailothos

I've read that as an explanation: I think it's in one or more of the Falcon Vs Fantastic threads I quoted.

I don't think he's wrong: That's rather my point - if that's how Falcon Vs Fantastic works, then Mr Fantastic's Evade is effectively immune to AAR. And that's either wrong, or it ought to be one of Reed's actual abilities.

AverageDesi

Maybe try locking in after the debuffs are placed? Then it can be solved pretty easily

Magrailothos

Well, I've seen it repeatedly.

You've tried it once and decided that not only am I wrong, but all the threads I've quoted above, about Mr Fantastic Evading Falcon are wrong, too?

Try harder.

Jaded

Whoa, you went pretty defensive for zero reason other then you wanted to. I didn’t say I tried once, nor did I say you’re wrong I’ve been commenting trying to make sense of the problem you have presented. Take the attitude to someone else.

Do better.

Colonaut123

Stryfe works to, but anyway.

It is an interesting theory. I use Elsa, so maybe I didn't notice it, but I will try it with Falcon.

Magrailothos

Tried it. This evening, about ten comments above.

Magrailothos

LOL

Yes, yes I did. It's a failing of mine sometimes; and I've got a bad cold right now. I apologise.

Also, as it turns out, it's surprisingly easy to be sucked into saying something stupid in this kind of exchange.

I mean I (normally) know AAR is multiplicative, so a 60% reduction isn't 'taken away from' a 5% chance, for example. And yet, I stated as much in an earlier comment!...

Party of that defensiveness was probably because you'd engaged with the issue; and I didn't want you to then just move on as you hadn't seen it with a bit of testing - obviously it won't happen every time; but (with Falcon's supposed -100% AAR) it only needs to happen once to be a problem. So what I should have said was: do please test again. A few attempts and you should see it happen.

It's not just me (as a single crazy person) saying it: this has been reported in a lot of threads. Search back in Bugs and Known Issues, and there are a large number of reports of this issue with Mr Fantastic, as well as it being observed with Enhanced Abilities-type nodes. That's why I think Reed's ability as functioning as an inherent 'Enhanced Evade'.

With 100%AAR, Falcon is by far the best example; but I mentioned Void and the Skill champs as I think the same issue is observable (even if it isn't always observed 😉) with them. And that suggests the issue is with AAR generally, rather than Lock On, specifically.

Anyway, whether you test again or don't: thank you for engaging constructively; and I apologise for being a grumpy ****.

Magrailothos

Well, after a brief segue into being defensive and irritable, I've done some more testing:

As mentioned above, I've used Falcon and fired off SP1s to self-inflict SP1 debuffs prior to using Lock On. Lock On still failed to prevent him Evading; so it's not just that the rise in Evade ability happens after Lock On is applied.

I've also had a couple of long slow Void fights against Reed using an unranked 3* (I do recommend lower-ranked champs for this, since you get longer fights to watch for Evades in).
I got to a point where I had one SP1 Careful Study Passive (counts as three debuffs for Reed) on me, plus two Agility debuffs and Fear of the Void on Mr Fantastic.

That should cause a 25% chance for him to Evade, with -120% Evade Ability Accuracy from (effectively) four Ability debuffs.

Mr Fantastic still Evaded, a lot. Was it the full 25%? Who can say? Once I started trying to hit him again instead of just dodging everything, he clobbered me pretty quickly.

Now how it is that Kabamathematics applies a 120% Ability Accuracy Reduction to an ability isn't fully known. I'm not sure many people even at Kabam could explain that, if they haven't taken the advanced Kabamathematics course. But I'd really, really like to know if this is intentional or not.

And even if that doesn't happen, hopefully I've been able to fairly conclusively demonstrate: don't use AAR to stop Mr Fantastic from Evading!

Jeal79

Yeah, I ran a few more test runs but couldn't figure out what was happening that he was still evading.

Definitely got me curious to know what the heck is going on here though it's not likely to impact me in game as I rarely rely on AAR to shut down evades. Plenty of other options in my roster that make sure Mr Brains here isn't going to dodge a thing.

KingInBlack

I've wondered on more than a few occasions how exactly his evade is coded compared with other champs since I generally take Falcon for evade and he doesn't stop Mr Fantastic from evading. I'm trying to recall if Shang Chi using slow was able to stop by but can't remember for sure. Since slow technically reduces the ability accuracy 100% it would be interesting to see if it works exactly like Falcon and he still evades or if it stops it.

Chikel

I use AA against him and once I have 3 neuros up, he's shut down. Maybe because he usually dies fast that I haven't noticed him evading against AA.
I definitely noticed the AAR problem with Falcon especially in Cav eq. Now I use Moleman and only bring Falcon for Electro