This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
Lemme turn this around, I don't think its about being impatient. Quite frankly, Arena is just boring. Nobody wants to grind arena. They turn to 3.2.6 because yes its easier and faster, but most importantly, it doesn't just drain your entire soul away doing it. It's a mobile game goddammit, people don't want to spend their time wasting away in Arena doing the same fights over and over again manually, when there's a completely different alternative available that is objectively more 'fun' (Put down your phone and just do something else instead thats enjoyable).
And I think there's a major point your missing out. Yes we did used to grind. But the game was different. We grinded arena and then grinded ROL for free potions to alleviate our unit/revive stash and make the run more reasonable. Nowadays the health pools have gotten so much bigger that these free potions are no longer cutting it, which is going to pretty much result in doubling peoples unit stash's for runs, which I can empathise with, is not a fun endeavour.
My final point is, yes people want to challenge the hard content now and get those rewards now, because if the alternative is farming units for the revives, instead of doing that content why don't I just wait for gifting at the end of the year and spend all those units on there instead and reach reasonably high in the gifting milestones instead, or purchase offers? I could play the long run and get much better rewards, infact it's always has been the efficient way of playing, ignoring everest content and just grabbing offers/banquet crystals for units.
You can't call it impatient when people want to have the fun now. It's a game goddamit. I'm not saying lets keep 3.2.6 there needs to be a middle ground reached.
While I suspect that there is nothing that will stop the nerf or the Apothecary quest launching, an acknowledgement of the general feelings on this thread would be appreciated.
There have also been many comments made on the general meta of the game, difficulty of content etc so I hope some of them get back to Kabam for consideration.
When you're talking about spending like crazy on Revs for permanent content, then people pay for impatience.
Yes, because when you do EoP for example, and you re 4-5 fights in, and then AI decides to turn its God mode on, and you have to spend let s say, 20 more revives than you needed too, that s impatience to complete your run, instead of quitting and actually lose all previous items you already spent.
When you're talking about spending like crazy on Revs for permanent content, then people pay for impatience.
Yes, because when you do EoP for example, and you re 4-5 fights in, and then AI decides to turn its God mode on, and you have to spend let s say, 20 more revives than you needed too, that s impatience to complete your run, instead of quitting and actually lose all previous items you already spent.
This point has been made before and I'm going to be quite frank. Farming Revs from Act 3 was NOT an indirect compensation for issues. That just isn't a thing.
Thank you for your feedback, we are reading every comment. Please keep your messages constructive; most of you have so far, thank you for that.
Based on the feedback in this thread, we have started internal discussions around adjusting revive/potion inventory caps. This is not a guaranteed change, but is what is most prominently being discussed.
These conversations will continue to take place behind the scenes and could grow to include other potential adjustments as well.
We will use this thread to provide updates if/when we have news to share.
Disappointing you guys taking this long to respond to the community regarding this.
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
So you accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth, then put words in mine. Well done. I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves. I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players. It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
Anyways, everyone has their own motivation to play the game. Some are ok with grinding arenas, others prefer to horde resources such as revives to complete end game content.
Just because you may have a preference on how you approach the game, does not mean it applies to everyone else. I am a recent Paragon player who has not done much of the end game content as I find the input issues very frustrating. I know I will have to use units for revives if I don’t save up revives. 3.2.6 is a convenient way to do so but even then, I don’t bother as it still takes time to preview the map before you can auto play.
At the end of the day, regardless of where you are at in the game or what patience you have, Kabam has removed a way for players to prepare for difficult end game content at the worst possible time.
Input issues are the worst I have experienced especially in BG. This is the first month that I have barely even attempted the monthly quest. I quit once last year as the game provided me less and less enjoyment. I can see myself doing so again in the near future. It’s a shame as I enjoy saving units to splurge on July 1st, Cyber weekend and the gifting event.
Ultimately it doesn’t really matter if we’re all being entitled spoiled brats for wanting to continue to revive farm. It doesn’t matter if our motivation is immediate gratification and fear of missing out. It doesn’t matter if the reason we revive farm is because content is often impossible to complete without the use of significant revives. It doesn’t matter if Kabam or anyone else thinks we should spend months actively grinding arena instead of passively grinding revives. Remember, passively auto farming revives isn’t a new phenomenon from 3.2.6. it used to be act 4 albeit probably a slightly lower revive to energy ration.
What really matters is what are the unintended consequences of this change and are Kabam happy to still implement with these consequences in mind. Which is less palatable to Kabam, the actions of the player base now, or the actions of the player base after this change is implemented.
Will it lead for example to players stopping or reducing to play the game. Will it lead to reduced spending? Or will it lead to a lot of player outrage but then ultimately they end up playing the game as Kabam intended. I personally don’t think this is smoke from the player base. The game is many many years removed from when a first clear of Labyrinth of Legends suggested farming 6k-12k of units.
Kabam have redesigned the game to get through through act content super quickly. You can sleep walk through to act 5 these days. Kabam have created an expedited set of player expectations.
Kabam have also drastically moved from the best rewards being available from clearing content to having the best rewards available to just purchase. If your pay to win, you have all the awesome purchasable rewards straight away coupled with all the available content rewards straight away. Everyone should wait until they have grinded their life away in arena like the good ole days? They can but I don’t think they will.
I cannot see the player base behaviour going backwards, so if the change isn’t significantly altered or stopped people will give up on the content and a lot will give up on the game. If Kabam is ok with that, go ahead and do it.
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
So you accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth, then put words in mine. Well done. I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves. I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players. It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
My brother in christ. Nobody is complaining about wanting 3.2.6 unchanged. They are complaining about how neutered down the proposed Apothecary is. Only a few people have talked about 3.2.6 remaining whilst the others have raised more major concerns that the Apothecary isn't good enough for a compromise.
I don't understand why you have such a hard time understanding that.
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
So you accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth, then put words in mine. Well done. I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves. I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players. It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
But its not unlimited. It's limited by energy.
Something like 2 runs with full energy which doen't always award a revive. Then what, 5+ hours to refill your energy and do it again.
How many do you really get in a day from that?
You and Kabam are making it like you can just run it nonstop and stockpile 50+ a day.
People aren't just doing farming runs with the Energy they have. They're spending their Refills on it to stockpile. If people were just spending the 70 they have, we wouldn't even be at this point. People can minimize the issue if they like, but it's clear it was enough of a number for Kabam to change it. So it wasn't that disadvantageous.
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
So you accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth, then put words in mine. Well done. I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves. I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players. It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
My brother in christ. Nobody is complaining about wanting 3.2.6 unchanged. They are complaining about how neutered down the proposed Apothecary is. Only a few people have talked about 3.2.6 remaining whilst the others have raised more major concerns that the Apothecary isn't good enough for a compromise.
I don't understand why you have such a hard time understanding that.
That's the heart of the issue. The expectation set by wanting something comparable to a piece of content that wasn't meant to be farmed. What's considered good enough?
This take is insanely shallow. If the rewards for completing something were 1 to 1 in value with the rewards for completing it 3+ months later, sure. But as the game economy is constantly evolving, waiting a few to several months to complete/explore a piece of content will end up rendering the rewards not worth the time/effort/resources put in. Not to mention, while you're farming resources for said content, a lot of other content will pass you by that you cannot risk wasting resources on.
All in all, this will result in people saving units to purchase special offers which are oftentimes more valuable and cheaper in the long term than wasting their resources and time for outdated in-game rewards.
That's a choice. People can save their Units for Offers, or they can invest them in the Rewards that come from permanent content. That's not shallow. It's the reality. ALL spending does is save time. Whether exclusive Offers, or doing content, all it does is fast-forward time for progress. Perhaps it becomes trivial when purchasing things that are only available for money, but overall it just speeds things up. If someone is working moderately at Grinding Units, which simply involves doing some Milestones in each Arena, they can easily do 800-1000 Units a week. This isn't theory. I can do it myself. Add the Units accumulated to the Revs we get on a regular basis, one from the Apothecary (which didn't even exist for those of us who weren't farming), and the Revs from Solos, and it's not that insurmountable. It takes patience. Quite frankly, people don't want to wait. They want the Rewards now.
So let me get this straight. To you, good gaming mechanics consist of either, a) Waiting 3-6months to complete fun endgame content with watered down rewards when everybody has long since moved on, or b) Grinding an unfun game mode (arena) constantly, in order to access the fun endgame content?
How much do you think the game has changed in 3-6 months? Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me. Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones. It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals. Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more. Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner. I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
I don’t think he said “immediately” in either of the posts to which you replied—you put that word in his mouth, which is commonly called “strawmanning” and is what people do when they can’t engage on the merits.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
So you accuse me of putting words in someone's mouth, then put words in mine. Well done. I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves. I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players. It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
But its not unlimited. It's limited by energy.
Something like 2 runs with full energy which doen't always award a revive. Then what, 5+ hours to refill your energy and do it again.
How many do you really get in a day from that?
You and Kabam are making it like you can just run it nonstop and stockpile 50+ a day.
People aren't just doing farming runs with the Energy they have. They're spending their Refills on it to stockpile. If people were just spending the 70 they have, we wouldn't even be at this point. People can minimize the issue if they like, but it's clear it was enough of a number for Kabam to change it. So it wasn't that disadvantageous.
So the refills are unlimited? Oh wait, no there not.
Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Some form of a trade-in store with limited supplies might also contribute to what people want. Although, I'm sure it wouldn't look like 2 Revs per Energy Refill. Lol.
Revives are not literally unlimited (nothing is) but they are effectively unbounded compared to the numbers a player would likely ever need. Without spending units, a player can accumulate between 100 and 150 revives before they start to expire. That's without the Sigil, without spending units on energy refills, and just burning natural energy recovery a few times a day, plus using any energy refills that drop from the farm itself.
Debating whether they are actually unlimited or not isn't really productive, because the farms were not nerfed because they were mathematically infinite, but rather because they were so productive they were wildly far beyond any reasonable limit. The reality of the situation is 100-150 is not just too high, but so wildly high that the devs took radical action to curtail them. That implies debating over whether they were infinite or just really high is arguing on the wrong side of the scale.
The devs say the farms are too high, and the farms are essentially 100-150. The players say the Apothecary is too low, and the Apothecary basically sets the farming limit at around 30 (that would include the inventory limit of 15, plus the maximum you could accumulate in overflow between the Apothecary and other small sources of revives).
If 30 is too low and 100 is too high, what's the correct number? And more importantly, why? Keeping in mind that whatever that number is, whether it is 30 or 50 or 75, future Everest content will be designed with the intent that that number will not be enough on its own. Even if you could convince the devs to change the number, which would be extremely difficult, you aren't going to convince the devs to stop making Everest content. Future content will factor that number in, no matter what that number is. If future content is going to be designed as *assuming* everyone will be able to use that number of revives, how high do we want that number to be? Higher isn't automatically better in that environment. Higher just means the devs figure out what will kill MSD 101 times, and then dial back a tiny bit.
The more I think about the revives, the more I'm convinced the revives are not the problem. They are just another symptom of a completely different problem.
The most interesting part about this whole debacle is that none of the farmed revives are free. Summoners are paying for them with time. So there is no ambiguity here, unless Kabam adds a weekly purchase limit, like in lots of other stores(BG, loyalty, etc), on revives.
The time to enter the Quest and click Auto-Play is not that valuable a commodity.
Who are you to tell me or anyone else how valuable time is? Your arrogance is atrocious.
If someone is talking about time and effort as a valuable commodity, I would tend to think of actual effort in the game. Playing the game myself. Looking at the screen as it fights for me is not representative of "time invested" in my opinion. That's just letting the game play itself while I press the button to start and select Paths.
Doesn’t matter what you think, playtime is still playtime, whether you use auto fight or not. You are choosing to use your device to play MCOC over the millions of other uses a personal computer has, that’s a valuable commodity.
The time to enter the Quest and click Auto-Play is not that valuable a commodity.
Who are you to tell me or anyone else how valuable time is? Your arrogance is atrocious.
If someone is talking about time and effort as a valuable commodity, I would tend to think of actual effort in the game. Playing the game myself. Looking at the screen as it fights for me is not representative of "time invested" in my opinion. That's just letting the game play itself while I press the button to start and select Paths.
Doesn’t matter what you think, playtime is still playtime, whether you use auto fight or not. You are choosing to use your device to play MCOC over the millions of other uses a personal computer has, that’s a valuable commodity.
If you're playing on a personal computer that's a whole other issue. *I know you meant device. I just don't agree with the same stance.
Realistically if a player is farming those revives in that quality the same player is also sacrificing all their time and energy on farming.
Not really, because revives expire in the overflow in 14 days. This means farming for more than 14 consecutive days is counter-productive. You can spend half the month doing EQ and BG, and the other half grinding revives, and still hit the limit of ~ 100 revives.
If two weeks is not enough you can do even better than that, because you can cross month boundaries. Hypothetically you could spend three weeks in May doing EQ and BG, then spend the last week grinding revives and then cross over into the first week of June (EQ is not aligned perfectly with calendar months, but you get the idea) and end up with (over) three weeks dedicated to EQ and BG in one month, the same three weeks dedicated to those activities in the following month, and still have a consecutive two week period in the middle where you max out revives and use them on some piece of content. You could only do this every other month, but there aren't really many pieces of content that would likely require that many revives for most players. Anything you could do in say fifty revives you could do every month.
Someone doing this would be sacrificing about 23% of their quest energy grinding for revives.
Comments
And I think there's a major point your missing out. Yes we did used to grind. But the game was different. We grinded arena and then grinded ROL for free potions to alleviate our unit/revive stash and make the run more reasonable. Nowadays the health pools have gotten so much bigger that these free potions are no longer cutting it, which is going to pretty much result in doubling peoples unit stash's for runs, which I can empathise with, is not a fun endeavour.
My final point is, yes people want to challenge the hard content now and get those rewards now, because if the alternative is farming units for the revives, instead of doing that content why don't I just wait for gifting at the end of the year and spend all those units on there instead and reach reasonably high in the gifting milestones instead, or purchase offers? I could play the long run and get much better rewards, infact it's always has been the efficient way of playing, ignoring everest content and just grabbing offers/banquet crystals for units.
You can't call it impatient when people want to have the fun now. It's a game goddamit.
I'm not saying lets keep 3.2.6 there needs to be a middle ground reached.
While I suspect that there is nothing that will stop the nerf or the Apothecary quest launching, an acknowledgement of the general feelings on this thread would be appreciated.
There have also been many comments made on the general meta of the game, difficulty of content etc so I hope some of them get back to Kabam for consideration.
Farming Revs from Act 3 was NOT an indirect compensation for issues. That just isn't a thing.
Class Specific Potions
Revive fragments
Potion fragments
if champ dies in a quest and you use a revive that champ receives 10% attack reduction
Moving on from that, your argument is it must be done immediately, with farmed Revs, because it's "fun" content. Personally I don't find it much fun at all to pile through everything immediately, and then sit and wait on something else for 6 months. That's just me.
Call the Arena boring if you like, but it's the primary source of things like Gold and Units on a regular basis. Nor does it take a boring amount of focus to do a little at a time for Milestones.
It's called immediate gratification, and it usually accompanies a lack of patience. I'd go so far as to say that if end-game content is being released and a large number of Players are brute-forcing through it immediately, it hasn't met its goals.
Not everyone is meant to gather up whatever they need in a few days and pile through it. It's permanent for a reason. I'm sure there are some Players at the very top that can do it much faster than others, but they're literally the demographic in mind for content like the Challenges. Those that have done everything and are waiting on something more.
Only, people see the Rewards and want to jump to it as fast as possible. The ironic thing is the so-called "competitive" aspect is FOMO because people they will never catch up to have done it much sooner.
I'm not saying people should have a snail's motivation. Obviously people want to do it as soon as possible. What I'm saying is these things take planning and time for some. They're not meant for everyone to do all at once. They're meant for some to miss out for a time.
A major disconnect I think is understanding how things work at the top end of the game in, say, AW or BGs. Because those are very competitive modes, gaining a competitive edge is pretty important. Players in at least the top 100-200 alliances don’t wait 3-6 months to do content that will get them R4 or R5 materials because they need it to compete now.
What gets mistaken for impatience is actually immediacy that has been built into the game by the game team themselves. And that has effects further down the line—before you dismiss that as problem only for the top few thousand players, guess who winds up facing some of those players in modes like BGs on the way up? Paragon scrubs like me, who have to find ways to compete with rosters that have all the new toys ranked up.
Like it or not, that’s the system the team put into place. Player blaming and shaming misses the point that players trying to compete in those modes face a simple choice: complete content to keep up or fall behind.
To which I expect your reply may be something along the lines of “if they can’t complete the content without a basket of revives, they aren’t ready and need to get good.”
Dr. Zola
I have no idea why you keep mentioning "blaming" as if I'm talking about victim blaming or something. What I'm putting on Players is their own expectations. No one is responsible for that other than themselves.
I'm quite aware of the motivating factors. I'm not talking about Tetris here. That doesn't justify the idea that Players expect to have a constant supply from content intended to help newer Players.
It's called competitive for a reason. That competitive aspect of the game doesn't mean the game team is obligated to give Players an unlimited amount of Resources to keep up with the Jones'.
Anyways, everyone has their own motivation to play the game. Some are ok with grinding arenas, others prefer to horde resources such as revives to complete end game content.
Just because you may have a preference on how you approach the game, does not mean it applies to everyone else. I am a recent Paragon player who has not done much of the end game content as I find the input issues very frustrating. I know I will have to use units for revives if I don’t save up revives. 3.2.6 is a convenient way to do so but even then, I don’t bother as it still takes time to preview the map before you can auto play.
At the end of the day, regardless of where you are at in the game or what patience you have, Kabam has removed a way for players to prepare for difficult end game content at the worst possible time.
Input issues are the worst I have experienced especially in BG. This is the first month that I have barely even attempted the monthly quest. I quit once last year as the game provided me less and less enjoyment. I can see myself doing so again in the near future. It’s a shame as I enjoy saving units to splurge on July 1st, Cyber weekend and the gifting event.
What really matters is what are the unintended consequences of this change and are Kabam happy to still implement with these consequences in mind. Which is less palatable to Kabam, the actions of the player base now, or the actions of the player base after this change is implemented.
Will it lead for example to players stopping or reducing to play the game. Will it lead to reduced spending? Or will it lead to a lot of player outrage but then ultimately they end up playing the game as Kabam intended. I personally don’t think this is smoke from the player base. The game is many many years removed from when a first clear of Labyrinth of Legends suggested farming 6k-12k of units.
Kabam have redesigned the game to get through through act content super quickly. You can sleep walk through to act 5 these days. Kabam have created an expedited set of player expectations.
Kabam have also drastically moved from the best rewards being available from clearing content to having the best rewards available to just purchase. If your pay to win, you have all the awesome purchasable rewards straight away coupled with all the available content rewards straight away. Everyone should wait until they have grinded their life away in arena like the good ole days? They can but I don’t think they will.
I cannot see the player base behaviour going backwards, so if the change isn’t significantly altered or stopped people will give up on the content and a lot will give up on the game. If Kabam is ok with that, go ahead and do it.
I don't understand why you have such a hard time understanding that.
People can minimize the issue if they like, but it's clear it was enough of a number for Kabam to change it. So it wasn't that disadvantageous.
What's considered good enough?
Although, I'm sure it wouldn't look like 2 Revs per Energy Refill. Lol.
Debating whether they are actually unlimited or not isn't really productive, because the farms were not nerfed because they were mathematically infinite, but rather because they were so productive they were wildly far beyond any reasonable limit. The reality of the situation is 100-150 is not just too high, but so wildly high that the devs took radical action to curtail them. That implies debating over whether they were infinite or just really high is arguing on the wrong side of the scale.
The devs say the farms are too high, and the farms are essentially 100-150. The players say the Apothecary is too low, and the Apothecary basically sets the farming limit at around 30 (that would include the inventory limit of 15, plus the maximum you could accumulate in overflow between the Apothecary and other small sources of revives).
If 30 is too low and 100 is too high, what's the correct number? And more importantly, why? Keeping in mind that whatever that number is, whether it is 30 or 50 or 75, future Everest content will be designed with the intent that that number will not be enough on its own. Even if you could convince the devs to change the number, which would be extremely difficult, you aren't going to convince the devs to stop making Everest content. Future content will factor that number in, no matter what that number is. If future content is going to be designed as *assuming* everyone will be able to use that number of revives, how high do we want that number to be? Higher isn't automatically better in that environment. Higher just means the devs figure out what will kill MSD 101 times, and then dial back a tiny bit.
The more I think about the revives, the more I'm convinced the revives are not the problem. They are just another symptom of a completely different problem.
Dr. Zola
Doesn’t matter what you think, playtime is still playtime, whether you use auto fight or not. You are choosing to use your device to play MCOC over the millions of other uses a personal computer has, that’s a valuable commodity.
*I know you meant device. I just don't agree with the same stance.
If two weeks is not enough you can do even better than that, because you can cross month boundaries. Hypothetically you could spend three weeks in May doing EQ and BG, then spend the last week grinding revives and then cross over into the first week of June (EQ is not aligned perfectly with calendar months, but you get the idea) and end up with (over) three weeks dedicated to EQ and BG in one month, the same three weeks dedicated to those activities in the following month, and still have a consecutive two week period in the middle where you max out revives and use them on some piece of content. You could only do this every other month, but there aren't really many pieces of content that would likely require that many revives for most players. Anything you could do in say fifty revives you could do every month.
Someone doing this would be sacrificing about 23% of their quest energy grinding for revives.