I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
Dr. Zola
That's a good question, there is a lot of issues and people exploiting; I just don't see it.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail
It's only never ending if you keep chasing your own tail and expect the world to eventually hand it to you.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
Dr. Zola
Perhaps you're no longer in the VT.
As of a few days ago, I am not in VT—however, I haven’t seen any meek little lambs through Platinum, Diamond and Vibranium or in GC.
My point isn’t to refute that there may be some folks who feel “picked on.” But I’m beginning to think those are exceptions, not rules. If there is a free for all Platinum and up, I haven’t seen it across any of my matches, and the leaderboards suggest whole flocks of lambs are already in GC.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
Not exactly—across 11 seasons, there have been times when it seems like you can’t get a favorable match and times when it feels like you get all (or mostly) favorable matches.
A lot of that is timing, time of day, the existence of new objectives or expiration of old objectives. “Not pushing” means “be patient”—as a veteran, I’m sure you realize how much this game taxes impatience.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
You are gonna be called Darwin, or Apoc. I know it happened to me.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
Dr. Zola
Perhaps you're no longer in the VT.
As of a few days ago, I am not in VT—however, I haven’t seen any meek little lambs through Platinum, Diamond and Vibranium or in GC.
My point isn’t to refute that there may be some folks who feel “picked on.” But I’m beginning to think those are exceptions, not rules. If there is a free for all Platinum and up, I haven’t seen it across any of my matches, and the leaderboards suggest whole flocks of lambs are already in GC.
Dr. Zola
Seeding seems to have significantly reduced the disparity in matches above Platinum 1. It hasn't completely eliminated the occasional mismatch, but they have been far rarer and the degree of mismatch has been far narrower. In fact, in this season there has only been one or two matches where I would say I had an overwhelming advantage. In every other match, when I did have an advantage it was not an insurmountable one. Nor have I matched against someone who had so high of an advantage over me that it was completely hopeless.
Exactly two players forfeited against me so far, and in both cases they had a roster that were I in their place I would not have done so. I mean, I never forfeit, but I would have still thought I had a decent chance in their place.
But the rate at which this happens is entirely dependent on how many participants there are.
When people are consistently being massively outmatched with poor matchmaking, they get discouraged and stop playing.
As long as Kabam uses some quantifiable metric to produce matches; people will be able to game the system. Those of us with “average” accounts are getting matched with both whales AND people that are purposefully only leveling up champs to be used in BG so their base hero rating remains low.
I have a 2.8m hero rating and 15.4k prestige. It took me 36 matches to get 10 wins in Gold.
11 matches were 500k hero rating above me; all had higher prestige. 10 matches were 500k hero rating below me. Sounds even, right? 8 of those 10 accounts had higher prestige than me.
Worst match was an account nearly 2m above me at 4.7m and 18.2k prestige. The “best” match was 1m below me but had 1400 more prestige than me.
Free for all Matchmaking needs to start in Silver or Gold.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'd like to know how you constitute the vast majority of the Player base. You of all people know that's not represented by the Forum. Even if it was, the OP also posted a Poll. Of the 65 people that answered, 19 of those Players felt BGs are fine the way they are. Hardly a vast majority. 46 people have other ideas. You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'd like to know how you constitute the vast majority of the Player base. You of all people know that's not represented by the Forum. Even if it was, the OP also posted a Poll. Of the 65 people that answered, 19 of those Players felt BGs are fine the way they are. Hardly a vast majority. 46 people have other ideas. You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
I didn't say i constituted the vast majority of the playerbase. I am simply not that large. Nor did I say the forums represent the majority of the playerbase. I just expect the forums to do forum things, which is complain until it gets bored and moves on.
As to addressing player concerns. I'm doing my best to explain how things are, and how to best approach the game mode given how it works. I don't actually think the way BG works is up for debate any more. The battle for the soul of the mode is essentially over, and for the most part sanity won. Anyone who wants to continue charging up that hill is welcome to do so, but I am compelled to advise that is an unwinnable fight, and their efforts would be better spent learning how the game mode works and trying to make it work for them efficiently. But if they enjoy complaining more than playing, they are certainly welcome to do that as well.
And as long as you're still around, I'm pretty sure mine is not going to be the final say.
Yeah that poll is not slanted at all when the question is about making VT easier.
It's not slanted at all. You have the option to select if you think it's fine the way it is. The other options are whether you think it needs changed, and in what way. Sorry you don't like the results.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'd like to know how you constitute the vast majority of the Player base. You of all people know that's not represented by the Forum. Even if it was, the OP also posted a Poll. Of the 65 people that answered, 19 of those Players felt BGs are fine the way they are. Hardly a vast majority. 46 people have other ideas. You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
I didn't say i constituted the vast majority of the playerbase. I am simply not that large. Nor did I say the forums represent the majority of the playerbase. I just expect the forums to do forum things, which is complain until it gets bored and moves on.
As to addressing player concerns. I'm doing my best to explain how things are, and how to best approach the game mode given how it works. I don't actually think the way BG works is up for debate any more. The battle for the soul of the mode is essentially over, and for the most part sanity won. Anyone who wants to continue charging up that hill is welcome to do so, but I am compelled to advise that is an unwinnable fight, and their efforts would be better spent learning how the game mode works and trying to make it work for them efficiently. But if they enjoy complaining more than playing, they are certainly welcome to do that as well.
And as long as you're still around, I'm pretty sure mine is not going to be the final say.
That's pretty trite to say they just enjoy complaining. They're expressing something that is affecting their game play. Whether it's up for debate or not is not determined by you or I, so as long as people keep having an issue, they're going to keep communicating it. It's not for you or I to say if that issue is valid or not. You can certainly express if you THINK it's valid or not. There seems to be enough of that going around. If you think I'm going to stay quiet while people tell them to get used to it and play accordingly because that ship has sailed, then I'm going to have a word to say. I agree that further changes need to be made. I don't agree that completely even Matches are the solution, and in fact I think it's almost where it needs to be, but it's not there yet in my opinion. So as long as people keep pointing out their issue, and I agree, I'm going to be a voice. I just happen to not take kindly to other people trying to silence me. I think I've also developed a reputation of staying mum unless something particularly motviates me to be vocal enough, so I'm not in the habit of peeing in the wind. I respect you trying to be helpful with them, no doubt. Telling them their views aren't going to make a difference, in more or less words, is not something I stand for.
Proven more harm than good, with the absence of seeding. That's what you're ignoring.
That's just incorrect. It's been proven countless times to be more good than harm. It's a system designed with the express intention of the letting the system decide what's fair. Not the developers, not the players, the system itself says that this is fair. And your argument is that it's more harm than good, but you're refusing to reference the sources I gave you. Teams of people wrote breakdowns on why the system is designed this way.
Let's break this down:
It's just undeniable that players maintaining a 50% win rate are average in their league. That means they're winning against the bottom half and losing against the top half.
So, in simplest terms, 50% = average, less than 50% = below average, greater than 50% = above average.
In a +2/-1 system, the most average player will progress to the next tier simply by maintaining a 50% win rate for 10 games or by maintaining a 100% win rate for 3, then a 0% win rate for 3, averaging at 50%.
So let's say Timmy, a player in Vib 3 with a 50% win rate and a 1.4 mil account, wins 3 in a row due to being matched with the bottom 20% of Vib 3. This progresses Timmy to Vib 2 due to the +2/-1 system with a 5 coin requirement. Now, the most average player in Vib 2 has a 50% win rate and a 2 million account. Timmy's win rate drops to 35% due to being outmatched in this new league.
Timmy then makes forum post after forum post complaining about matchmaking. He can't complete objectives because he's losing 75% of his fights and he keeps matching with 1.8 mil-2.2 million rating accounts. Now, since Timmy has an underdeveloped roster and takes up spots at the bottom 35% of Vib 2, a player with a 40% win rate can beat him in order to progress to Vib 1.
Under leveled accounts would be invading the higher levels, completely throwing off win rates, giving easy wins to the players who previously would've had a 50% win rate, but now have a 65% win rate due to players like Timmy feeding them wins. Timmy's situation would be happening to hundreds, if not thousands of players.
It doesn't work.
That's literally what we have now. The lowest Players are being fed to the wolves at Plat and up, being tossed around for Tanking, and told to Git Gud because it's a competition. Meanwhile, they're not only required to overcome the wolves to advance, they need 10 Tiers of consecutive Wins to get out of the VT. 10 Tiers of going up, down, up, down, up, up, down, up, down, down, etc. How long do you think it will last before people get tired of making little to no progress and being told to suck it up? I'll give you a hint. About as long as you would endure the same thing.
Where exactly is this “fed to the wolves” happening for real? I’ve yet to find any little lambs from Plat up to Gamma—just different sized lupines.
Dr. Zola
Perhaps you're no longer in the VT.
As of a few days ago, I am not in VT—however, I haven’t seen any meek little lambs through Platinum, Diamond and Vibranium or in GC.
My point isn’t to refute that there may be some folks who feel “picked on.” But I’m beginning to think those are exceptions, not rules. If there is a free for all Platinum and up, I haven’t seen it across any of my matches, and the leaderboards suggest whole flocks of lambs are already in GC.
Dr. Zola
Seeding seems to have significantly reduced the disparity in matches above Platinum 1. It hasn't completely eliminated the occasional mismatch, but they have been far rarer and the degree of mismatch has been far narrower. In fact, in this season there has only been one or two matches where I would say I had an overwhelming advantage. In every other match, when I did have an advantage it was not an insurmountable one. Nor have I matched against someone who had so high of an advantage over me that it was completely hopeless.
Exactly two players forfeited against me so far, and in both cases they had a roster that were I in their place I would not have done so. I mean, I never forfeit, but I would have still thought I had a decent chance in their place.
And this can all be a good thing overall, if “natural selection” truly plays out at Platinum and above.
But I fear the team still doesn’t have it all fixed. As I noted above, I’ve yet to run across one of the “little lambs” that need defending in my progress to GC, even though what appear to be hundreds of them beat me out of the VT. If there is ELO in GC, it also may not be working as I would assume it would—once again, my matches there have pretty much been the same level of competition as my matches in VT.
Given the sheer number of lower rated accounts with zero points when I hit GC, I am surprised I met none of them (as well as a couple of other similar GC players I spoke with). That may have all been just randomness in ELO matching, but it surely seems odd.
Is this a problem for me? Not so much, since I tend to make it through VT whatever the system. But if seeding still uses some form of preferred matchmaking all the way up to and into GC, I think that cheapens the efforts of players who face the best of the best along the way and it doesn’t seem to fit the way Kabam Jax described the whole BG structure over a week ago.
Okay, so you disagree. We will see what changes need to be made then.
it goes both ways.
here you are saying "its the same old people saying the same old things"
yet here you are...
saying the same old thing over and over and over.
it takes atleast two to have a discussion. you are engaging with them and carrying on the conversation in a circle just as much as anyone else is.
clearly you will not change the way anyone sees it and they will not change the way you see it.
you can sit here all you want and tell people not to say the same thing over and over but unless you do the same why would they?
You're absolutely right. I'm part of these discussions as well. When there's a continual effort to shut them down, then I'm going to speak up. Otherwise people would have a normal exchange of ideas. Some might think there are no changes needed, and that's well within their rights. That doesn't mean that others can't discuss how they think BGs should improve. That's about it.
I don't understand this at all. I'm getting smoked by whales in Q3 through M3. Should I be complaining about having to fight them? The game mode is competitive. Everyone shouldn't make it to GC every time.
Yeah that poll is not slanted at all when the question is about making VT easier.
It's not slanted at all. You have the option to select if you think it's fine the way it is. The other options are whether you think it needs changed, and in what way. Sorry you don't like the results.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'd like to know how you constitute the vast majority of the Player base. You of all people know that's not represented by the Forum. Even if it was, the OP also posted a Poll. Of the 65 people that answered, 19 of those Players felt BGs are fine the way they are. Hardly a vast majority. 46 people have other ideas. You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
I didn't say i constituted the vast majority of the playerbase. I am simply not that large. Nor did I say the forums represent the majority of the playerbase. I just expect the forums to do forum things, which is complain until it gets bored and moves on.
As to addressing player concerns. I'm doing my best to explain how things are, and how to best approach the game mode given how it works. I don't actually think the way BG works is up for debate any more. The battle for the soul of the mode is essentially over, and for the most part sanity won. Anyone who wants to continue charging up that hill is welcome to do so, but I am compelled to advise that is an unwinnable fight, and their efforts would be better spent learning how the game mode works and trying to make it work for them efficiently. But if they enjoy complaining more than playing, they are certainly welcome to do that as well.
And as long as you're still around, I'm pretty sure mine is not going to be the final say.
That's pretty trite to say they just enjoy complaining. They're expressing something that is affecting their game play. Whether it's up for debate or not is not determined by you or I, so as long as people keep having an issue, they're going to keep communicating it. It's not for you or I to say if that issue is valid or not. You can certainly express if you THINK it's valid or not. There seems to be enough of that going around. If you think I'm going to stay quiet while people tell them to get used to it and play accordingly because that ship has sailed, then I'm going to have a word to say. I agree that further changes need to be made. I don't agree that completely even Matches are the solution, and in fact I think it's almost where it needs to be, but it's not there yet in my opinion. So as long as people keep pointing out their issue, and I agree, I'm going to be a voice. I just happen to not take kindly to other people trying to silence me. I think I've also developed a reputation of staying mum unless something particularly motviates me to be vocal enough, so I'm not in the habit of peeing in the wind. I respect you trying to be helpful with them, no doubt. Telling them their views aren't going to make a difference, in more or less words, is not something I stand for.
At some point you'll have to make peace with the status quo or make a case for change with data. It makes no difference whether you agree with the current system or not, unless there is enough support for your position. Based on all the threads and the posts by Jax, there isn't, at least not according to people who can drive that change. As things stand this isn't a hill worth dying on, all you are doing is reducing your credibility. You are better off directing your efforts to help the people who post those complaints.
Yeah that poll is not slanted at all when the question is about making VT easier.
It's not slanted at all. You have the option to select if you think it's fine the way it is. The other options are whether you think it needs changed, and in what way. Sorry you don't like the results.
I'm sorry but I disagree with that. Not pushing is not a solution. That's like saying, if you don't like it, don't play it.
You can back off and not push, or you can push and lose a lot. Not pushing is a solution to losing a lot for no reason. But if you expect the game mode to "fix" this for you by ensuring that you get something when you push, good luck. That's not a bug, that's a feature.
If you don't like it, don't play it.
You can certainly "expect" the game mode to have feedback to the contrary when the system is designed in such a way that it becomes a never-ending loop of chasing your tail. You can voice your concerns about your own experience, and suggest what you think would improve it without being told to eat a **** sandwich because larger Accounts want to dictate what your push is worth.
I expect many people will continue to complain about the game mode being unfair because it isn't giving them hand picked opponents they can beat. I expect those complaints to slowly drop over time, as people discover that not only are the devs unreceptive to handing them more wins, but the vast majority of the playerbase isn't willing to join them on that march.
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
I'd like to know how you constitute the vast majority of the Player base. You of all people know that's not represented by the Forum. Even if it was, the OP also posted a Poll. Of the 65 people that answered, 19 of those Players felt BGs are fine the way they are. Hardly a vast majority. 46 people have other ideas. You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
I didn't say i constituted the vast majority of the playerbase. I am simply not that large. Nor did I say the forums represent the majority of the playerbase. I just expect the forums to do forum things, which is complain until it gets bored and moves on.
As to addressing player concerns. I'm doing my best to explain how things are, and how to best approach the game mode given how it works. I don't actually think the way BG works is up for debate any more. The battle for the soul of the mode is essentially over, and for the most part sanity won. Anyone who wants to continue charging up that hill is welcome to do so, but I am compelled to advise that is an unwinnable fight, and their efforts would be better spent learning how the game mode works and trying to make it work for them efficiently. But if they enjoy complaining more than playing, they are certainly welcome to do that as well.
And as long as you're still around, I'm pretty sure mine is not going to be the final say.
That's pretty trite to say they just enjoy complaining. They're expressing something that is affecting their game play. Whether it's up for debate or not is not determined by you or I, so as long as people keep having an issue, they're going to keep communicating it. It's not for you or I to say if that issue is valid or not. You can certainly express if you THINK it's valid or not. There seems to be enough of that going around. If you think I'm going to stay quiet while people tell them to get used to it and play accordingly because that ship has sailed, then I'm going to have a word to say. I agree that further changes need to be made. I don't agree that completely even Matches are the solution, and in fact I think it's almost where it needs to be, but it's not there yet in my opinion. So as long as people keep pointing out their issue, and I agree, I'm going to be a voice. I just happen to not take kindly to other people trying to silence me. I think I've also developed a reputation of staying mum unless something particularly motviates me to be vocal enough, so I'm not in the habit of peeing in the wind. I respect you trying to be helpful with them, no doubt. Telling them their views aren't going to make a difference, in more or less words, is not something I stand for.
At some point you'll have to make peace with the status quo or make a case for change with data. It makes no difference whether you agree with the current system or not, unless there is enough support for your position. Based on all the threads and the posts by Jax, there isn't, at least not according to people who can drive that change. As things stand this isn't a hill worth dying on, all you are doing is reducing your credibility. You are better off directing your efforts to help the people who post those complaints.
I'm certainly not the first person here to continue being passionate about an issue. I started out simply offering my thoughts on what would improve it. As long as the issue is being discussed, I'm going to talk about it. I do appreciate the suggestion, though. I know you're coming from a helpful place. I'm just not willing to ignore the issues I think are still present. I'm also not the only one. *Also, it's worth noting that Jax responded to a Thread that was going awry, asking for even Matches throughout. We're talking about a suggestion on how to improve the monotony of the climb. Not the Matchmaking.
This are ALL suggestions to make BGs easier for lower roster or skill players, not to improve . It has been 11 seasons of changes to make it easier for other people, that is not improvement. The only QoL change that has been done over a year of the game mode release has been seeding, which in the subject of this thread makes advancing and keeping a tier EASIER.
You can disagree all you want but we were talking about the coin system, and you brought up a wolf feeder, skillful alts, and a bunch of non sense related to the issue.
Comments
If you don't like it, don't play it.
Dr. Zola
My point isn’t to refute that there may be some folks who feel “picked on.” But I’m beginning to think those are exceptions, not rules. If there is a free for all Platinum and up, I haven’t seen it across any of my matches, and the leaderboards suggest whole flocks of lambs are already in GC.
Dr. Zola
A lot of that is timing, time of day, the existence of new objectives or expiration of old objectives. “Not pushing” means “be patient”—as a veteran, I’m sure you realize how much this game taxes impatience.
Dr. Zola
In the meantime, I'm going to advise players to play intelligently, and let natural selection take over from there. The ones who listen to my advice and incorporate it into their play will tend to get better results than those who decide to ignore it or argue against it. Which is perfectly fine with me.
Exactly two players forfeited against me so far, and in both cases they had a roster that were I in their place I would not have done so. I mean, I never forfeit, but I would have still thought I had a decent chance in their place.
But the rate at which this happens is entirely dependent on how many participants there are.
When people are consistently being massively outmatched with poor matchmaking, they get discouraged and stop playing.
As long as Kabam uses some quantifiable metric to produce matches; people will be able to game the system. Those of us with “average” accounts are getting matched with both whales AND people that are purposefully only leveling up champs to be used in BG so their base hero rating remains low.
I have a 2.8m hero rating and 15.4k prestige. It took me 36 matches to get 10 wins in Gold.
11 matches were 500k hero rating above me; all had higher prestige. 10 matches were 500k hero rating below me. Sounds even, right? 8 of those 10 accounts had higher prestige than me.
Worst match was an account nearly 2m above me at 4.7m and 18.2k prestige. The “best” match was 1m below me but had 1400 more prestige than me.
Free for all Matchmaking needs to start in Silver or Gold.
You can certainly suggest that people save themselves some frustration, but that's not going to address their concerns. They're still going to keep voicing that they think it needs to change. Just because you have the ear of the Devs doesn't mean you're the final say, and it doesn't mean you're always right. Tell enough people to let nature take its course, and you have a dying game mode.
As to addressing player concerns. I'm doing my best to explain how things are, and how to best approach the game mode given how it works. I don't actually think the way BG works is up for debate any more. The battle for the soul of the mode is essentially over, and for the most part sanity won. Anyone who wants to continue charging up that hill is welcome to do so, but I am compelled to advise that is an unwinnable fight, and their efforts would be better spent learning how the game mode works and trying to make it work for them efficiently. But if they enjoy complaining more than playing, they are certainly welcome to do that as well.
And as long as you're still around, I'm pretty sure mine is not going to be the final say.
Sorry you don't like the results. That's pretty trite to say they just enjoy complaining. They're expressing something that is affecting their game play.
Whether it's up for debate or not is not determined by you or I, so as long as people keep having an issue, they're going to keep communicating it. It's not for you or I to say if that issue is valid or not. You can certainly express if you THINK it's valid or not. There seems to be enough of that going around. If you think I'm going to stay quiet while people tell them to get used to it and play accordingly because that ship has sailed, then I'm going to have a word to say. I agree that further changes need to be made. I don't agree that completely even Matches are the solution, and in fact I think it's almost where it needs to be, but it's not there yet in my opinion.
So as long as people keep pointing out their issue, and I agree, I'm going to be a voice. I just happen to not take kindly to other people trying to silence me. I think I've also developed a reputation of staying mum unless something particularly motviates me to be vocal enough, so I'm not in the habit of peeing in the wind.
I respect you trying to be helpful with them, no doubt. Telling them their views aren't going to make a difference, in more or less words, is not something I stand for.
But I fear the team still doesn’t have it all fixed. As I noted above, I’ve yet to run across one of the “little lambs” that need defending in my progress to GC, even though what appear to be hundreds of them beat me out of the VT. If there is ELO in GC, it also may not be working as I would assume it would—once again, my matches there have pretty much been the same level of competition as my matches in VT.
Given the sheer number of lower rated accounts with zero points when I hit GC, I am surprised I met none of them (as well as a couple of other similar GC players I spoke with). That may have all been just randomness in ELO matching, but it surely seems odd.
Is this a problem for me? Not so much, since I tend to make it through VT whatever the system. But if seeding still uses some form of preferred matchmaking all the way up to and into GC, I think that cheapens the efforts of players who face the best of the best along the way and it doesn’t seem to fit the way Kabam Jax described the whole BG structure over a week ago.
Dr. Zola
The matchmaking works exactly as intended and it is also intended that you won’t beat a crazy 7* max Sig whale with your 5*
Add an Unranked Mode where players can fight equal Roasters/Profiles just for fun & training and it’s all good.
here you are saying "its the same old people saying the same old things"
yet here you are...
saying the same old thing over and over and over.
it takes atleast two to have a discussion.
you are engaging with them and carrying on the conversation in a circle just as much as anyone else is.
clearly you will not change the way anyone sees it and they will not change the way you see it.
you can sit here all you want and tell people not to say the same thing over and over but unless you do the same why would they?
then continued reading and yep...
same same same back and forward, back and forward....
anyone in your alliance, anyone on your friends list, add randoms from global chat, whatever....
I do appreciate the suggestion, though. I know you're coming from a helpful place. I'm just not willing to ignore the issues I think are still present. I'm also not the only one.
*Also, it's worth noting that Jax responded to a Thread that was going awry, asking for even Matches throughout. We're talking about a suggestion on how to improve the monotony of the climb. Not the Matchmaking.
The only QoL change that has been done over a year of the game mode release has been seeding, which in the subject of this thread makes advancing and keeping a tier EASIER.