10 Tiers of consecutive Wins isn't a reasonable system. I don't care who thinks others belong where. That's for their efforts to decide. Only, when you pigeon-hole those efforts, then you have a system that is designed with the outcome of keeping people frozen, not progressing over time. Which should be the case. As they advance their Rosters, and continue making an effort in the competition, and their skills improve, then they should have the ability to move higher. That's how growth works. The current setup is too punishing to allow, or even encourage that. If people want a competition that they Rank the same thing every month and no one moves, we have AQ for that.
Just because you can't do something doesn't mean it's unreasonable.
Who said I can't?
You have said multiple times that you've been stuck in BGs.
Nope. I was in Gold 1 for a few days. Coming up on D1 now. Regardless, I'm an adult. I know the difference between my own issues and the system as a whole. I'm going to have a hard time for a while because I'm new Paragon, and it will take time for the next phase of growing my Roster. Which is why I don't complain about my own personal situation. I'm talking about the system's expectations for people from Gold up, and it's too narrow. Not completely off, just in need of adjustment.
You're trying to act like some White Knight fighting for the little guy with no ulterior motives. I call BS on you for fighting so hard and not complaining about your own personal situation.
You can call what you like, buds. I'm not complaining about my own situation at all. Last Season I wasn't up for the new changes. This Season I was stubborn enough to try. So I started at Bronze 1, and I'm in Diamond 1 now. So I'm not doing that bad. You know, it is possible for people to have concerns that are not self-serving.
That's great, but I don't believe you're not talking about your own situation.
How so? I started from Bronze with the toughest Matches possible. I made it to D1 within less than 2 weeks, and now I'm at the point where my suggestion wouldn't even affect me because I suggested keeping Vibranium the same. Other than my own experience going through the slog, my concerns aren't self-serving. Nice try, though.
You're against 1 token wins and are currently in the 1 token win section of the VT. Seems like you'd be greatly helped if they went back to 2 token wins at your lever GW.
Wrong.
I suggested 2/1 Tokens up to Vibranium, with 5 Tokens required for Diamond. So I'm past the point that would even affect me.
Diamond is below Vibranium so you want 2/1 in your current tier.
Diamond 1 is 5 Tokens to make it to Vibranium 3. You new?
WTF does that have to do with anything? "I suggested 2/1 Tokens up to Vibranium". That's what you want. The number of tokens needed doesn't matter.
You're not following. I'm in Diamond 1. It takes 5 Tokens to get to Vibranium 3. Which, under my suggestion, wouldn't affect me. I'd still need 5 Tokens at 1 per Win where I'm at. You earn based on the Tier you're going up to. Not the one you're in.
It will still affect you next season since you will be seeded playing for 1 token per win. Kabam made it 5 tiers of 1 token wins to get to GC from Plat1 and 1 token per win for people that claim being stuck in Plat2. Its really not hard to understand their intentions.
Still speaking for Kabam?
Kabam isn't doing anything too different from the rest of the industry. I would recommend doing some real research into why these systems are designed this way.
The only major differences between BGs and most other ranked modes is that BGs doesn't base their matchmaking off of skill and they don't allow players to be demoted.
You're continually inserting conjecture on behalf of Kabam’s intentions. The argument that I'd benefit personally isn't sound regardless. No more so than anyone else who has to slog through the VT from Plat up. My motivations are not self-serving. You can argue otherwise all you like, but when the same two people keep contradicting everything I say in these Threads, it's clear that one of us is making an effort to be productive. The others are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If you tried hard instead of whinning last season, you wouldn't be whinning this season and realized its really not 10 tiers. Why would i want to be productive on something that is right? If it is not broken don't fix it. If anything you were counter productive to the system and yourself. You knew seeding was comming, you knew data and player start placement was gonna be active and you personally decided to skew that data by quitting. I started this season where I should have started in the first place, you as an experienced player started in bronze. So who is the counter productive subject?
Its 5 tiers of 1:1 win loss ratio for people who start in Plat1 due to seeding Its 5 tiers of 1:1 win loss ratio for people that get stuck in Plat 2 due to matchmaking system. It seems very fair, unless people expect to advance further. It can be "hard" or frustrating for 1 season. I really don't understand the problem. The seeding system always makes you start at 5 tiers below your highest peak, there really isnt an issue at all.
You don't see a problem. Others do. So let them discuss their ideas without trying to squash every discussion on the subject. Jesus, this is aggressive.
Couldn’t we have 1 thread about the issues people see with BGs and things they feel need to be changed and discuss with others who feel the same?
We can’t have another thread for the people who love BGs as is and see nothing wrong with it?
This way people can have good conversations about these topics with others who feel the same about the specific discussion. Then maybe Kabam could comment in on the discussions every once in a while.
As it is right now we have people making a bunch of different threads about issues and what they feel about the game mode and right out the gate the same people come in the thread and turn it into a huge debate.
There really isn't a problem, problem is some people didn't bother reaching their peak the previous season and now see 10 tiers ahead when they shouldn't. Why make Kabam use time and effort to accomodate people that didn't even bother in the first place? Why even bother changing something that affects a player for 1 season only? The only problem here is that people seem to feel entitled to clear all of the 10 tiers, which goes into the unending argument getting to GC 🤣
As it is right now we have people making a bunch of different threads about issues and what they feel about the game mode and right out the gate the same people come in the thread and turn it into a huge debate.
Why would discussions be limited only to those who agree? This idea would be a net negative addition, I'll discuss why it shouldn't be added all I'd like.
Blame it on the system because people started at Bronze, and nevermind the fact that they should have tried harder and start higher in the first place. On december I might be on vacation and not care much for BGs I guess if that makes me start in gold the season after its Kabam's fault that I will have to do more tiers of 1:1 coin matches. How dare you Kabam!
I'm going to call Harvard, Yale and every Ivy league school and give them this reasoning. They should let 2.0 GPA and D average students in their schools, just for the enjoyment of a higher education, of course they would have to be accepted with full scholarships cause others are P2W otherwise. And it has nothing to do with the benefits of getting a diploma from them, its just so people enjoy the ride and not get discouraged.
bruh is bringing higher education comparison to a game..... I mean, cmon. That is an awful comparison. That is just as bad as someone who uses american handegg analogies all the time./
@JustWantTheRewards Yeah you can and I know you will continue to argue in every thread because you seem to enjoy the negative attention, but hey man whatever makes you happy go for it.
Who wants to have productive conversation with other like minded people on the subject when debating is so much more enjoyable.
Example: That’s like if a person who loves classical music but can’t stand rock music instead of going to a concert with classical music he goes to the rock concert to tell them they are all wrong for liking it 😂
JustWantTheRewards Yeah you can and I know you will continue to argue in every thread because you seem to enjoy the negative attention, but hey man whatever makes you happy go for it.
Who wants to have productive conversation with other like minded people on the subject when debating is so much more enjoyable.
I've done nothing but try to have a productive conversation. If I'm bringing any sort of negativity to the conversation, show me where that is. I have no idea what you think you're talking about.
Accusing me of negativity, you better have receipts to back that up.
Well, what do you mean by the system from Plat and up isn't 50%?
I mean, the expectation to progress is more than 50%. Perhaps you're not talking about the same thing I am. Bottom line is, you're talking about a Ranked system and that doesn't even begin until the GC. This is not the same. There are fixed requirements to enter the next Tier. With an entire plethora of different Player growth points. Not all will make it to the GC, no doubt. The structure of the GC doesn't apply in terms of a 50/50 Win/Loss ratio because the VT is too large to get trapped into a no-move situation, coupled with seeding. All that does is keep people frozen Season after Season.
Well, what do you mean by the system from Plat and up isn't 50%?
I mean, the expectation to progress is more than 50%.
Yes, the expected win rate of a player to progress in any tier is greater than 50%. Having exactly a 50% win rate means you are the average player in your tier, having a greater than 50% win rate means you're above average and having a below 50% win rate means you're below average. If the system is working properly, nobody should have a below 50% win rate. If they do, they're further along than they should be and would be demoted if BGs allowed that.
The ranked system does begin at Bronze 3. It's not the same as in the GC, but it's still a ranked system fundamentally.
There aren't fixed requirements to enter the next tier. Theoretically, the only requirement is that you need to be stronger than the bottom 50% of the people in your current tier. Having a greater than 50% win rate means you are likely in the top 50% of your current tier. Having 5 matches with the +1/-1 coin system is the best way to define that.
Winning 3 matches in a row can be defined as a few lucky matches against the bottom 20% of the people in your tier and you're still likely to lose the next 3 matches in a row while maintaining that 50% win rate.
In a fully fledged ranked environment, the coin system wouldn't even exist and the game would just not reward you as much for winning 3 in a row, so you would still remain in or be demoted back into your current tier if you fail to maintain an above 50% win rate. Since BGs doesn't have demoting and doesn't have a point system in the VT, the 5 coin, +1/-1 system is the only way to ensure that players aren't further along the track than they should be. If they were, placements would be extremely uneven. Players having a 50% consistent W/L ratio is exactly what devs are looking for when attempting to design a fair system that evens itself out. If placements became uneven, then players would be varying wildly between 23% win rates, 16% win rates, 87% win rates. We would be seeing tons more 600k accounts in the GC season by season.
With the current system, there should be no reason why players are frozen season after season unless they're just not improving. Like I've mentioned, the 50% win rate thing is not something Kabam or BGs forces onto players. It's just how the system works itself out. If, after 100 matches in their current tier, a player has a 45-55% win rate and hasn't progressed, that's the mark of an extremely well developed system. That means that they are the absolute average among every player they're being matched up against. If they grow their roster or develop their skills faster and further than the people they're being matched up against, their win rate should theoretically rise. If it's not, that would be a problem, but that's something that would need to be proven.
There are fixed requirements (Tokens). As for being frozen, they cannot improve at a rate that makes it possible to advance past a certain point. With the bulk of BG Rewards going to Players that not only clear the VT, but also gain from the GC, they're progressing at a faster rate. Sure, they can play each Season, and their Roster will grow over time. Only, they're stuck in the same cycle of meeting the same Players from the GC from Plat up. With a Win expectation that is higher than they're capable of keeping up with. That, coupled with the fact that they'll be meeting overpowered competition Season after Season, that expectation of no room for error (I.E. you lose as much as you win) means it's a back-and-forth exercise in a competition that keeps getting harder and harder each Season. Nevermind when R3s are introduced. Also, I'm not subscribed to the idea that the "best" Players will be out of the VT within a week or so. I'm still coming up against them camping out at the end of Week 2. Farming Wins no doubt. Such a system that expects 1:1 Win ratio is perfectly fine for entry into the GC. That's sufficient enough, and it's pretty much on par with the GC. Which is why I suggested the 3 Vibranium Tiers. Having it from Plat up is more of a detriment than good. Quite frankly, it's overkill. I don't care who's satiated by it. It is counterproductive.
Technically yes, but the way you earn tokens is by beating the competition, and the competition is not fixed in the slightest. Completing Act 8 is fixed, earning tokens isn't.
As for being frozen, they cannot improve at a rate that makes it possible to advance past a certain point. With the bulk of BG Rewards going to Players that not only clear the VT, but also gain from the GC, they're progressing at a faster rate
They can definitely improve at a rate that makes it possible to advance past a certain point, unless you can really prove otherwise. My account was 1.3 mil in June, now it's 1.9. Put in the work to get Act content, MEQ's, Everest content, AQ and AW all done and you will improve faster than the players with a 50% win rate spending all of their time trying to make progress without improving. Players who make it to the GC aren't the players you should be worried about beating, you should only be worried about the players in Diamond 1. That's your competition. Plus, BGs rewards aren't nearly enough to make meaningful roster developments on their own.
Sure, they can play each Season, and their Roster will grow over time. Only, they're stuck in the same cycle of meeting the same Players from the GC from Plat up. With a Win expectation that is higher than they're capable of keeping up with. That, coupled with the fact that they'll be meeting overpowered competition Season after Season, that expectation of no room for error (I.E. you lose as much as you win) means it's a back-and-forth exercise in a competition that keeps getting harder and harder each Season. Nevermind when R3s are introduced
None of this can be proven or disproven. If you have a 50% win rate, that means you're going up against players you are capable of beating. 50% of the time. Players who get Seeded into Plat also aren't players you should be worried about. If they had an 80% win rate from Plat to the GC in season 10, then they'll also have an 80% win rate from Plat to the GC in season 11. They'll be out of your hair in a day or two. Though, I could see how changes to Seeding might be necessary in a season or two. It doesn't make too much sense to have all of the GC battling it out in Plat day one.
Also, I'm not subscribed to the idea that the "best" Players will be out of the VT within a week or so. I'm still coming up against them camping out at the end of Week 2. Farming Wins no doubt.
It's definitely not about the "best", just the strongest. Strongest meaning: what they don't have in roster size, they make up for in skill and vice versa. If you're seeing players farming wins in the later part of the VT, that's also a seperate issue that won't be fixed by changing the coin system at all.
Such a system that expects 1:1 Win ratio is perfectly fine for entry into the GC. That's sufficient enough, and it's pretty much on par with the GC. Which is why I suggested the 3 Vibranium Tiers. Having it from Plat up is more of a detriment than good. Quite frankly, it's overkill. I don't care who's satiated by it. It is counterproductive.
Again, none of this can be proven or disproven. It's just an opinion and not even an argument.
We're here to discuss opinions. It's a Forum. I made the point that the coin system needs to be revisited. I provided my reasons. I don't have to verify anything by hard-core proof. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm not arguing it ad nauseum. It's been proven by other models, and if you want to see if I'm right, then by all means wait and see. What I'm not doing is having an arbitrary argument about whose opinion is fact and whose isn't.
We're here to discuss opinions. It's a Forum. I made the point that the coin system needs to be revisited. I provided my reasons. I don't have to verify anything by hard-core proof. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm not arguing it ad nauseum. It's been proven by other models, and if you want to see if I'm right, then by all means wait and see. What I'm not doing is having an arbitrary argument about whose opinion is fact and whose isn't.
There's a difference between "I don't like this" and "here is my reasoning with cited sources as to why the system should be designed this way and not that way". It's not just about opinions, there are clear factual points as well.
If your argument is going to be that players cannot progress, there's nothing to say to that aside from "yes they can"
They can progress their Accounts. They cannot progress over time within BGs enough, in combination with progressing their Accounts, in order to advance. The setup is too tight to allow it. I'm not talking about every Joe Schmoe and their Alt. That's not representative of a Player who is learning. I'm talking about the Players who are working on their own growth. Anyone with years of experience can start an Alt and claim it's easy to grow. My concerns are not just "I don't like it.". My concerns are for Players, what they can and cannot grow into, what they will and will not continue to participating in when they're going around in circles, and for the overall health of the competition. Not just "We matter, they don't.". Very few games have a complexity like this one. I'm not new here. I'm quite aware of how things will do over time. You can cite other games if you like, but they're not the same in reality. There are other nuances to consider. All anyone is doing here is discussing opinions. Whether you consider yours factual or not is irrelevant. No one's opinion is more fact than any other's, and when a conversation devolves into that, that's just arguing for the sake of it. If you disagree with my points, that's fine. You have every right to think I'm wrong. I'm just not going in circles because the same few people are worried something might change. You can say what you want about the amount of Posts being made on the subject, but that's a clear indication there's something to look at. You can't pass off that many people as entitled whiners, without considering there is something amiss.
My concerns are not just "I don't like it.". My concerns are for Players,
But you can't speak for Players in general. You can only speak for your own experience, which you've said a few times now isn't what you're doing. If every player speaks for their own experience, then it would be a discussion of opinions. But that's not what's happening. I'm looking at it from the perspective of myself and the entire industry of Ranked games. My experience matches 1:1 with the research I've done and the intended experience with the intended results and it sounds like yours does too.
If you think the experience should be designed a different way, that's alright, but I'm arguing that the +2/-1 coin idea has major flaws. If you don't acknowledge those flaws and understand why the system is designed the way it currently is, then you're arguing something else entirely.
Yes there are issues with BGs, I agree. But the +2/-1 coin idea has been proven to be more harm than good. Having a 50% win rate has been proven to be the major sign of a well designed, fair system. The argument that BGs is flawed and tiring will not disprove either of those things.
The moment someone is polite and makes a lot of sense comes the "its my opinion" part and i don't have to prove anything 🤣. DNA and you got a lot of patience and i gotta respect that @JustWantTheRewards
Comments
https://win.gg/news/valve-dev-debunks-dota-2-players-forced-50-win-rate-theory/
https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/news/arenas-ranked#:~:text=The Ranked Climb&text=The amount of bonus AP,everyone else playing that season.
https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/dev/ask-valorant-rank-rating-edition/
The only major differences between BGs and most other ranked modes is that BGs doesn't base their matchmaking off of skill and they don't allow players to be demoted.
Why would i want to be productive on something that is right? If it is not broken don't fix it. If anything you were counter productive to the system and yourself.
You knew seeding was comming, you knew data and player start placement was gonna be active and you personally decided to skew that data by quitting. I started this season where I should have started in the first place, you as an experienced player started in bronze. So who is the counter productive subject?
Its 5 tiers of 1:1 win loss ratio for people that get stuck in Plat 2 due to matchmaking system.
It seems very fair, unless people expect to advance further.
It can be "hard" or frustrating for 1 season. I really don't understand the problem.
The seeding system always makes you start at 5 tiers below your highest peak, there really isnt an issue at all.
We can’t have another thread for the people who love BGs as is and see nothing wrong with it?
This way people can have good conversations about these topics with others who feel the same about the specific discussion. Then maybe Kabam could comment in on the discussions every once in a while.
As it is right now we have people making a bunch of different threads about issues and what they feel about the game mode and right out the gate the same people come in the thread and turn it into a huge debate.
The only problem here is that people seem to feel entitled to clear all of the 10 tiers, which goes into the unending argument getting to GC 🤣
On december I might be on vacation and not care much for BGs I guess if that makes me start in gold the season after its Kabam's fault that I will have to do more tiers of 1:1 coin matches. How dare you Kabam!
I mean, cmon. That is an awful comparison. That is just as bad as someone who uses american handegg analogies all the time./
Who wants to have productive conversation with other like minded people on the subject when debating is so much more enjoyable.
Accusing me of negativity, you better have receipts to back that up.
Bottom line is, you're talking about a Ranked system and that doesn't even begin until the GC. This is not the same. There are fixed requirements to enter the next Tier. With an entire plethora of different Player growth points.
Not all will make it to the GC, no doubt. The structure of the GC doesn't apply in terms of a 50/50 Win/Loss ratio because the VT is too large to get trapped into a no-move situation, coupled with seeding. All that does is keep people frozen Season after Season.
The ranked system does begin at Bronze 3. It's not the same as in the GC, but it's still a ranked system fundamentally.
There aren't fixed requirements to enter the next tier. Theoretically, the only requirement is that you need to be stronger than the bottom 50% of the people in your current tier. Having a greater than 50% win rate means you are likely in the top 50% of your current tier. Having 5 matches with the +1/-1 coin system is the best way to define that.
Winning 3 matches in a row can be defined as a few lucky matches against the bottom 20% of the people in your tier and you're still likely to lose the next 3 matches in a row while maintaining that 50% win rate.
In a fully fledged ranked environment, the coin system wouldn't even exist and the game would just not reward you as much for winning 3 in a row, so you would still remain in or be demoted back into your current tier if you fail to maintain an above 50% win rate. Since BGs doesn't have demoting and doesn't have a point system in the VT, the 5 coin, +1/-1 system is the only way to ensure that players aren't further along the track than they should be. If they were, placements would be extremely uneven. Players having a 50% consistent W/L ratio is exactly what devs are looking for when attempting to design a fair system that evens itself out. If placements became uneven, then players would be varying wildly between 23% win rates, 16% win rates, 87% win rates. We would be seeing tons more 600k accounts in the GC season by season.
With the current system, there should be no reason why players are frozen season after season unless they're just not improving. Like I've mentioned, the 50% win rate thing is not something Kabam or BGs forces onto players. It's just how the system works itself out. If, after 100 matches in their current tier, a player has a 45-55% win rate and hasn't progressed, that's the mark of an extremely well developed system. That means that they are the absolute average among every player they're being matched up against. If they grow their roster or develop their skills faster and further than the people they're being matched up against, their win rate should theoretically rise. If it's not, that would be a problem, but that's something that would need to be proven.
Sure, they can play each Season, and their Roster will grow over time. Only, they're stuck in the same cycle of meeting the same Players from the GC from Plat up. With a Win expectation that is higher than they're capable of keeping up with. That, coupled with the fact that they'll be meeting overpowered competition Season after Season, that expectation of no room for error (I.E. you lose as much as you win) means it's a back-and-forth exercise in a competition that keeps getting harder and harder each Season. Nevermind when R3s are introduced.
Also, I'm not subscribed to the idea that the "best" Players will be out of the VT within a week or so. I'm still coming up against them camping out at the end of Week 2. Farming Wins no doubt.
Such a system that expects 1:1 Win ratio is perfectly fine for entry into the GC. That's sufficient enough, and it's pretty much on par with the GC. Which is why I suggested the 3 Vibranium Tiers.
Having it from Plat up is more of a detriment than good. Quite frankly, it's overkill. I don't care who's satiated by it. It is counterproductive.
I made the point that the coin system needs to be revisited. I provided my reasons. I don't have to verify anything by hard-core proof.
If you disagree, that's fine. I'm not arguing it ad nauseum.
It's been proven by other models, and if you want to see if I'm right, then by all means wait and see.
What I'm not doing is having an arbitrary argument about whose opinion is fact and whose isn't.
If your argument is going to be that players cannot progress, there's nothing to say to that aside from "yes they can"
I'm not talking about every Joe Schmoe and their Alt. That's not representative of a Player who is learning. I'm talking about the Players who are working on their own growth. Anyone with years of experience can start an Alt and claim it's easy to grow.
My concerns are not just "I don't like it.". My concerns are for Players, what they can and cannot grow into, what they will and will not continue to participating in when they're going around in circles, and for the overall health of the competition. Not just "We matter, they don't.".
Very few games have a complexity like this one. I'm not new here. I'm quite aware of how things will do over time. You can cite other games if you like, but they're not the same in reality. There are other nuances to consider.
All anyone is doing here is discussing opinions. Whether you consider yours factual or not is irrelevant. No one's opinion is more fact than any other's, and when a conversation devolves into that, that's just arguing for the sake of it.
If you disagree with my points, that's fine. You have every right to think I'm wrong. I'm just not going in circles because the same few people are worried something might change.
You can say what you want about the amount of Posts being made on the subject, but that's a clear indication there's something to look at. You can't pass off that many people as entitled whiners, without considering there is something amiss.
If you think the experience should be designed a different way, that's alright, but I'm arguing that the +2/-1 coin idea has major flaws. If you don't acknowledge those flaws and understand why the system is designed the way it currently is, then you're arguing something else entirely.
Yes there are issues with BGs, I agree. But the +2/-1 coin idea has been proven to be more harm than good. Having a 50% win rate has been proven to be the major sign of a well designed, fair system. The argument that BGs is flawed and tiring will not disprove either of those things.
DNA and you got a lot of patience and i gotta respect that @JustWantTheRewards