**KNOWN ISSUE WITH SIDE QUEST KEYS**
We are aware of an issue impacting some Summoners, resulting in the loss of their stash of SQ entry keys.
The team will be redistributing lost keys.
Timeline is uncertain.
(Slightly) More information here.

Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

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Comments

  • Mmx1991Mmx1991 Posts: 674 ★★★★
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

    You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

    It's gambling.
    1. Read the tos, the contract you entered into when installing the game. There is zero redeemable value in in game items and all sales after final. You have in essence bought tokens at an arcade that are only redeemable for content within the game. Furthermore all content including your account is owned by Kabam.
    2. Being that you own nothing it has zero tangible value.
    3. In arguendo, if it did have value you are not at risk of losing as you do receive something in return guaranteed.

    Though it's against the TOS, accounts have resale value. Therefore it's gambling. The market determines value, not Kabam's TOS.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

    You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

    It's gambling.

    You're not playing games of chance for money. You receive no money from the game.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling
  • Mmx1991Mmx1991 Posts: 674 ★★★★
    edited December 2017
    Accounts have resale value even though it's against the TOS.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Snizzbar wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

    You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

    It's gambling.
    1. Read the tos, the contract you entered into when installing the game. There is zero redeemable value in in game items and all sales after final. You have in essence bought tokens at an arcade that are only redeemable for content within the game. Furthermore all content including your account is owned by Kabam.
    2. Being that you own nothing it has zero tangible value.
    3. In arguendo, if it did have value you are not at risk of losing as you do receive something in return guaranteed.

    The game ToS mean absolutely nothing to Apple, because Apple have all the power. Apple is the 500 pound gorilla that gets to sit wherever it wants to.
    Yup, however Apple doesn’t define what gambling is, we have legislatures and dictionaries that do that sort of thing.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    Snizzbar wrote: »
    “Apps offering ‘loot boxes’ or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”
    That's straight from the App Store guidelines. There is no mention of gambling, so why is everyone going on about it?
    By the definition of loot boxes used in the official Apple guidelines, the in game crystals are loot boxes, and therefore Kabam must follow the rules set by Apple if they want MCoC to stay in the app store.

    What comes of it is yet to be seen. Apple has no authority over in-game currency, for that matter.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    Accounts have resale value even though it's against the TOS.
    Legally no they do not.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

    I don't care what the TOS says.

    Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.
    Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

    P.s. you always wi.
  • Mmx1991Mmx1991 Posts: 674 ★★★★

    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

    I don't care what the TOS says.

    Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.
    Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

    P.s. you always wi.

    Not all contracts are legal. You can't have a contract to sell you own kid or own a slave. You guys keep throwing the TOS around like it's airtight. It's just a bunch of words that may or may not hold it court.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Snizzbar wrote: »
    “Apps offering ‘loot boxes’ or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”
    That's straight from the App Store guidelines. There is no mention of gambling, so why is everyone going on about it?
    By the definition of loot boxes used in the official Apple guidelines, the in game crystals are loot boxes, and therefore Kabam must follow the rules set by Apple if they want MCoC to stay in the app store.

    Are you sure about that? It’s related to loot boxes you can purchase. Apple’s guidlines have included a no gifting of IAPs clause for 2 years now, yet we’re gifting today.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

    I don't care what the TOS says.

    Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.
    Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

    P.s. you always wi.

    Not all contracts are legal. You can't have a contract to sell you own kid or own a slave. You guys keep throwing the TOS around like it's airtight. It's just a bunch of words that may or may not hold it court.
    Untill a court determines it as invalid it stands. You taking Kabam to court to win an forum argument?

    Btw look up the tos challenges that came from Second Life changing their TOS and how people who challenged it lost.
  • SnizzbarSnizzbar Posts: 2,136 ★★★★★
    They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.

    Nope, but they have the ability and the legal jurisdiction to exclude apps from their own app store for not following the guidelines. How long would Kabam hold out if that actually happened to MCoC? They'd fold in about thirty seconds. Lol.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    Snizzbar wrote: »
    They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.

    Nope, but they have the ability and the legal jurisdiction to exclude apps from their own app store for not following the guidelines. How long would Kabam hold out if that actually happened to MCoC? They'd fold in about thirty seconds. Lol.

    You're missing the point of what I'm saying. They're not going to manipulate the game into complying in all its in-app content. That's a stretch, even for my own views on Apple. They can make it a requirement for purchases made in the App Store. They can't force an App to list those things in the game. They do not have the authority, and they're not about to overstep legal bounds. This applies to the App Store.
  • ViperKingVViperKingV Posts: 111
    Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

    If you’re trying to say that a digital reward is not an item of value, that is certainly untrue. Whatever you want to call it, Players pay money to buy chances at winning rare game items that help us compete in the game. Kabam shouldn’t need to be forced to provide us with the odds for the items they make available for us to purchase, they should do it on principal. If Kabam chooses not to comply with Apple’s new guidelines or changes aspects of the game to avoid posting odds, my conclusion will be, that The company & forum Mods have not been honest with us. There is no reason for them not to do it, unless the odds are not fixed percentages, and in game modifiers are being used to determine outcomes. Posting the odds will not result in lower game revenues.
    While we are awaiting Kabam’s response, I ask the Mods to clear up one thing. The 5* Premium Hero Crystals Cost 5000 shards more than a basic 5* crystal. 5,000 shards whether you buy them or earn them, they have a real $ cost/value to most players. Im not sure how this number was calculated but there seems to be a player consensus that the probability of getting the featured champ Is between 20-25%. Can we get some response if not an actual number?
    Does the additional 5,000 5* shards for a featured 5* crystal provide at least a 20% probability to pull the featured champ?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    ViperKingV wrote: »
    Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

    If you’re trying to say that a digital reward is not an item of value, that is certainly untrue. Whatever you want to call it, Players pay money to buy chances at winning rare game items that help us compete in the game. Kabam shouldn’t need to be forced to provide us with the odds for the items they make available for us to purchase, they should do it on principal. If Kabam chooses not to comply with Apple’s new guidelines or changes aspects of the game to avoid posting odds, my conclusion will be, that The company & forum Mods have not been honest with us. There is no reason for them not to do it, unless the odds are not fixed percentages, and in game modifiers are being used to determine outcomes. Posting the odds will not result in lower game revenues.
    While we are awaiting Kabam’s response, I ask the Mods to clear up one thing. The 5* Premium Hero Crystals Cost 5000 shards more than a basic 5* crystal. 5,000 shards whether you buy them or earn them, they have a real $ cost/value to most players. Im not sure how this number was calculated but there seems to be a player consensus that the probability of getting the featured champ Is between 20-25%. Can we get some response if not an actual number?
    Does the additional 5,000 5* shards for a featured 5* crystal provide at least a 20% probability to pull the featured champ?

    You're not purchasing the Items. Any purchase made belongs to Kabam. You are in essence renting permission to use it. There is no return on purchases made. You don't own the Items, the Account, or any part thereof. As for the conjecture, I do not agree that they haven't been honest with us, so I will leave it as your view.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    Mmx1991 wrote: »
    It's funny how you're against Apple "cramming down it's policies" down Kabam's throats, but you're all for Kabam cramming down whatever it wants down our's.

    My views on Apple extend much further than this game, which is why I've kept them to myself, save for a question answered. I do not purchase Apple. I do not support the company. There's a reason I play Android. However, we are on a Website provided by Kabam, who produce the game we are discussing. Lol. No one is cramming anything down anyone's throat or forcing us to do anything.
  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,515 ★★★★★
    MikeHock wrote: »
    That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

    Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

    It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.
    What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

    I'm not commenting on conspiracy.

    Omg, you're the one who first brought it up in this thread!

    The whole reason people want to know, in my opinion, is to start a Witch Hunt. I've been a gamer more years than I care to admit. If people want something, they go for it. The TL:DR of this is, "We want to know because we never trusted the drop rates".
    Precisely. Conspiracy.

    Do you have selective memory?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    MikeHock wrote: »
    MikeHock wrote: »
    That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

    Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

    It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.
    What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

    I'm not commenting on conspiracy.

    Omg, you're the one who first brought it up in this thread!

    The whole reason people want to know, in my opinion, is to start a Witch Hunt. I've been a gamer more years than I care to admit. If people want something, they go for it. The TL:DR of this is, "We want to know because we never trusted the drop rates".
    Precisely. Conspiracy.

    Do you have selective memory?

    I would suggest looking into the meaning of conspiracy because you've cited it several times and it still doesn't apply.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    edited December 2017
    I'm quite aware of my own Posts. When I express an opinion, that's not conspiracy. Especially when I explicitly state that it's my opinion. That opinion is based on countless conspiracies posted, over the span of years. If I were to say, "The Players teamed up with Apple to expose Kabam for altering the drops!", that would be conspiracy. When I say my opinion is that the root of wanting to know drop rates is to continue an already-existing Witch Hunt, that's not an assertion. That's an opinion. An opinion that's supported by the reactions in this very Thread. So concludes this mental exercise.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,072 ★★★★★
    To be more specific, that's not a generalization. I don't think all people questioning drop rates are doing so out of skepticism. I think some are generally curious, some want more information, some are indifferent, etc. It's just that I think the larger number are chomping at the bit at some sort of sign that the company hasn't been honest. Lol. Evident by the comments that assert and hypothesize that rates are altered and not as presented.
  • Dave_the_destroyerDave_the_destroyer Posts: 981 ★★
    AS explained many times before, this will make not one difference. If Kabam have to show drop rates at all, these will only be for purchases with real currency. So you buy units, the drop rate is 100% as you are just buying units. If you then use those units to purchase something else in game (called a IAP) then they dont have to show any drop rates for that at all, not covered by what Apple requested. If they sell an offer for something else for example, say an awakening gem. Then the drop rate will be 1 in 6 per class. They sell a gem for a specific class, the drop rate is 100% etc. BUT, these are only if purchased with real money, not in-game. And you can already see the drop rates for purchases with real money

    Never mind the fact that, as pointed out very well above, everything in the game is rented from Kabam, that we dont own it, means again no odds are needed

    Apple take 30% at least of every purchase in the game, many hundreds of millions of dollars, they wont want to stop that. And they want the no1 app (thats this game) in their store, so literally no chance at all that they will kick Kabam even if they wanted to, which they dont

    Equals nothing at all will change re this

    As discussed in this thread, the fact that you use units to buy crystals is not a magic loophole to trick Apple with. Then every game could get around the rule. Apple knows his and knows every game has its own currency which is purchased with real dollars. So all the amateur lawyers out there who think they have found a brilliant loop hole should stop thinking this. Real lawyers reviewed and possibly wrote the regs. They are well aware of what goes on in games. There is no way that they get around it using this false logic.

    As RUN477 stated, they are either going to revise drop rates or try to avoid disclosing. Apple will make them disclose and they will almost certainly revise drop rates. If there is any manipulation on drop rates towards **** heros, new players, spenders, etc.... that will have to revise drop rates. Either way the transparency is welcomed and anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish.

    Great, apart from the fact that Apple has looked at these type of purchases for this game a few times before, and passed them as not covered by any rules asking for drop rates. Like every time

    Apart from the fact that your completely wrong, great post
  • DarkestDestroyerDarkestDestroyer Posts: 2,867 ★★★★★
    C0atHang3r wrote: »
    I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

    Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

    Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

    How can you argue with that?

    I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

    Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

    When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

    Can you not see what apple are doing is best for the gamers?

    This is a win for gamers, like an unbelievable one at that.

    Apple should be praised to the high heavens for implementing this for developers to follow.

    How you don't agree with it, well I have no idea.

    I don't agree with it. Not at all. It's not about the information. It's about what Apple is doing, how they're doing it, and the implications of it. The whole thing is shady tactics on their part. I'm sorry, I don't support it. I've already said I don't care if the rates are released because it doesn't change my habits. It's about the principle for me. I won't be praising Apple anytime soon, for many reasons. As for the rates, we will have to see what comes out of this.

    But how is it shady from Apple? They are helping gamers, by us being able to see the chances before spending £300.

    Next your gonna say you suppose EA charging £80 for a game to play on console, and then have in game transactions for loot boxes which can just speed up your progression.
  • phillgreenphillgreen Posts: 3,573 ★★★★★
    If the drop rates are equal for all players and not manipulated based on factors not disclosed then publishing drop rates has no effect whatsoever.

    There is no conspiracy unless its by app publishers.
  • Cujo999 wrote: »
    The_One wrote: »
    I haven't read all 7 pages of comments but I have a question.
    If Kabam refused to disclose the information I assume that would that mean Apple could pull the game from the app store?
    Does that mean it would disappear from Apple devices that already have it installed or you just wouldn't be able to download or update in the future?

    I imagine that the app would no longer function. They can't refuse because they need to be in the app store.

    Really, only Kabam's bean counters know if they can refuse or not. Last year, Apple had 25 million app downloads compared to 90 million for Google. So, Kabam would be looking at potentially losing 21% of their player base. A significant % of those people that spend money on the game will probably move over to another device.

    This is a very misleading percentage. Many of the MCOC players move to apple devices to have faster game play for arena/legends. Also, they wouldn't lose 100% of apple players if they had to close the apple app, many of those players would migrate.

    The biggest hit will come from attaining new customers which they will need to do if they still plan to last to 2025.
    C0atHang3r wrote: »
    I mean how can you even argue @GroundedWisdom .

    Apple have come up with a rule, and your telling apple they are wrong...

    Why? Just why? They will have people working there who know what they're talking about.

    How can you argue with that?

    I'm not intimidated by any major corporation, and I can have an opinion on any action taken by a company. I do not approve. There are many things Apple does that I do not approve of.

    Say What? This is the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. What does any of this have to do with you being intimidated by Apple? If they make a rule you follow end of story.

    When it comes to expressing my opinion, it has everything to do with it. I was asked how I can argue with their decision. Simple. I don't agree with it, and I'm not obligated to accept it or intimidated by the idea that Apple can do what they want.

    Sorry bro, you do have to accept it cus it happened.
  • CoatHang3r wrote: »
    @UnsaferBinkie7 I am asking you to show me what definition of gambling you are using. It’s not that difficult. I have already stated that I have never seen a definition for gambling that would include crystals in Mcoc. I require the definition you are using because quite simply what you are claiming does not jibe with any definition especially any legal definition I have come across. You obviously have internet access so let’s see it.

    See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

    Wrong.
  • C0atHang3rC0atHang3r Posts: 78
    edited December 2017
    Snizzbar wrote: »
    “Apps offering ‘loot boxes’ or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”
    That's straight from the App Store guidelines. There is no mention of gambling, so why is everyone going on about it?
    By the definition of loot boxes used in the official Apple guidelines, the in game crystals are loot boxes, and therefore Kabam must follow the rules set by Apple if they want MCoC to stay in the app store.

    What comes of it is yet to be seen. Apple has no authority over in-game currency, for that matter.

    They have authority over the entire app. Good stuff tho...
  • MrMojoMrMojo Posts: 97
    MikeHock wrote: »
    I'm citing and quoting your words, GW. I would suggest you be able to follow the conversation and be aware of your own posts.

    Hey bud! It’s almost as if he gets paid per stupid post. Better things to do with your time.
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