I for one really appreciate that they took the time to organize and report this data as basis for their rebalancing. This is an unprecedented amount of data that they are sharing with the playerbase and I hope they continue to provide this kind of info when rebalancing characters. Thanks Kabam!
@DNA3000 may have pointed out a mistake in the graphs provided, don't wanna jump on the conspiracy train or anything but I really hope they address that.
@Kabam Miike another question regarding the data across multiple champions. This is the Act 6 data posted for Invisible Woman DPS in her thread; I've cut out the "top 10" section and highlighted where Ronin is (according to the legend he is the "diamond"):
Here's the Cull Obsidian Act 6 DPS data, and I've once again pointed out Ronin, who is supposed to be the "star" in this graph:
These two graphs purport to show the same thing, at least according to the descriptions: average DPS of various champions in Act 6, when used by the "top 10%" of players. And yet Ronin apparently shows up in two radically different places: about 6700 DPS in the Invisible Woman data and closer to 4700 DPS in the Cull Obsidian data. Is there an error in the graphs or am I somehow misinterpreting what the graphs are supposed to be showing?
Yo @Kabam Miike or anyone else, mind giving us an answer?
@DNA3000 Nice find on the graphs regarding the discrepancy. I was gonna ask where all these godlike Ronin players have been hiding all this time after seeing his DPS chart from the invisible woman post. If I had to guess that champion was probably mislabeled or the data got messed up somehow.
As for how they quantify the "top 10%" I was assuming it was just an average of only the top 10% DPS values from all recorded fights with the champion. I don't think it has anything to do with player skill or roster size or anything like that. Could be wrong of course but that's how I understood it.
Feb 5th: 25.3 Releases: Changes are live, and you’ll be able to try them out in game. Feb 10th - 24th: You’ll be able to sell your Cull Obsidian or Namor during this 2 week window. February 24th: Selling window is closed. Our team will disable the ability to sell these Champions. March 9th: Projected date to return any Namor/Cull Obsidian that was sold, along with any Duplicates received, Gold, ISO-8, Rank Up Gems, Awakening Gems, and Signature Stones.
What if I sell Namor and get it back from any crystal? Sell him again or keep him?
As for how they quantify the "top 10%" I was assuming it was just an average of only the top 10% DPS values from all recorded fights with the champion. I don't think it has anything to do with player skill or roster size or anything like that. Could be wrong of course but that's how I understood it.
That doesn't seem to be the case, as the text in the postings (at least some of them) directly mention player skill. From the Cull data post:
This chart shows a Comparison of Cull’s DPS vs other high damage dealing Champions throughout Act 6. This is also separated by Player Skill level, with our most skilled again having a much larger division from Summoners that take more damage.
I think people would be more accepting of Rebalancing if there was a set procedure for how they were handled. We've got generic rank down tickets, we've gotten character specific rank down tickets, now were selling champs and getting back whatever we naturally pulled but I remember a while back there was a nerf that required us to straight up sell the champ and we'd need to pull it again. There doesnt seem to be any consistency with these changes. If, for example, you decided that moving for this "Sell the extras keep the dupes" type system is the new way forward then keep this system and implement for EVERY "tune down" moving forward. Dont pick and choose, just make it the norm. So when Dr Doom get rebalanced in 6 months you give players an ability to sell him and maintain any pulled copies while giving back the resources used on him. Whatever you decide keep it consistent so players know what to expect and can plan accordingly when a rebalance in announced.
At this point of the whole rebalance conversation it really is what it is. The issue concerning me is, and let’s be honest/fair, some people spent a lot of money for a chance at these specific champs. Including quite a few that just kept spending until they got them. I love cull, he’s one of my favorites but I agree he’s a little much once he’s fully ramped, so I understand a balance. But when saying “sell” cull back to us and get mats instead of rank down tickets this is kind of infuriating. I spent a lot to have him in my roster but with the changes I may not want him at that rank/level/sig. I think it’s absolutely laughable that people would even think they’re entitled to a monetary refund but I do think there are other ways ahead. The money spent to obtain him versus all the grinding to rank him are different. Completely giving up the champion is honestly insulting. Maybe I want him at 1/25 just as another fighter in the arena or maybe he’s my favorite character and I just want to see him in my roster. Whatever the case may be for each individual I do not believe that asking us to sell off our champion to accommodate the rank down issue of a champion you were unable to properly gauge before the release to be fair or in the best interest of the game. You said that the sell back would be more complicated than rank down tickets, well by all means save your team some work and just issue the tickets.
Ps sorry if there are a lot of typos. Corrected what I saw.
At this point of the whole rebalance conversation it really is what it is. The issue concerning me is, and let’s be honest/fair, some people spent a lot of money for a chance at these specific champs. Including quite a few that just kept spending until they got them. I love cull, he’s one of my favorites but I agree he’s a little much once he’s fully ramped, so I understand a balance. But when saying “sell” cull back to us and get mats instead of rank down tickets this is kind of infuriating. I spent a lot to have him in my roster but with the changes I may not want him at that rank/level/sig. I think it’s absolutely laughable that people would even think they’re entitled to a monetary refund but I do think there are other ways ahead. The money spent to obtain him versus all the grinding to rank him are different. Completely giving up the champion is honestly insulting. Maybe I want him at 1/25 just as another fighter in the arena or maybe he’s my favorite character and I just want to see him in my roster. Whatever the case may be for each individual I do not believe that asking us to sell off our champion to accommodate the rank down issue of a champion you were unable to properly gauge before the release to be fair or in the best interest of the game. You said that the sell back would be more complicated than rank down tickets, well by all means save your team some work and just issue the tickets.
Ps sorry if there are a lot of typos. Corrected what I saw.
You know they're returning the champion to you after you sell him right? If you sell a R5/65, you will get a R1 lvl 1 Cull back plus all the mats/gold/iso you used to rank him up
I used a 4-5 rank up gem on my cull. All I want to know is IF I sold him will I get back the cosmic 4-5 gem or equivalent t5b, t2a etc because there’s a big difference between the 2
This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.
If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming
Thanks for you guys putting this all together .. there's a lot of info to sift through and understand (and I don't claim to even begin to understand it LOL ) .. but the fact it's there is awesome. Thank you.
I still reserve the right to disagree (or agree) with your proposed changes but at least we have the data which we can discuss.
Community requested the data .. you guys provided ... Thank you!
Despite the few trolls still finding something to whine and complain about, i believe the majority are happy to see the data (even if they still disagree with your conclusions based on that data . .hehe )
This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.
If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming
Lol you sound like a boxing referee in a title fight! I want a good clean fight...no low blows etc 🤣
I’ve opened tons of crystals but have still never pulled 5 or 6 star versions of Cull or Namor. Will I get any compensation for my efforts? @Kabam Miike
As long as people let kabam do this over and over again they will continue doing this to us. I didn't get lucky enough to pull a 5* or 6* namor but I did spend money on those crystals trying to get it because of what he did in game, if namor wasn't as good as he was sold, I wouldn't have spent on those crystals to try to get him. They did it to us when they too perfect block, they did it to us when they changed how willpower worked and then when they nerfed champs on 12.0. I dont remember a change that actually helped the players...
Lets say I use an awakening gem on Namor and put 199 sig stones into him. Then a few weeks later I pull him 5 times from featured cav crystals (after he’s already at sig 200). What would I get back if I sold him? An AG, 199 sig stones, and a sig 100 Namor? Or just 100 sig stones and a sig 100 Namor?
The compensation package is really well done, the biggest complaint from all previous tuning changes was the loss of gems and sigs so kudos for that.
I would rather time was spent bringing up some the bad champs than tuning down the great ones.
In the case of Cull and Namor, 2 champs from 120ish are found to be "too good" when most people are likely to never see either in their 5 or 6* roster at max rank/sig for a very, very long time and a smaller percentage again are skilled enough to use a champ to their full potential. The people doing that are going to wreck your content no matter what.
One thing I would really like to see is clarity around who is up for balance changes and a strict set of criteria developed to ensure all champs are being treated fairly. If DPS is it then that's fine but there are plenty of nodes and such that blunt even the heaviest hitters. I'd rather some effort was put into the matchup rather than blunting a champ in every facet of the game.
Lets say I use an awakening gem on Namor and put 199 sig stones into him. Then a few weeks later I pull him 5 times from featured cav crystals (after he’s already at sig 200). What would I get back if I sold him? An AG, 199 sig stones, and a sig 100 Namor? Or just 100 sig stones and a sig 100 Namor?
My understanding from the announcement is the former. You should be getting the sig level you would have had if you hadn't awakened or used sig stones. But that's my interpretation of the announcement, this is not spelled out literally. It makes sense though, given what they appear to be doing. They aren't tracking your sig levels directly, they seem to be datamining how many times you pulled him, but not the order in which you pulled and sig stoned him up.
Correction, I found a dev post on this subject: under this scenario I belive you will get a Namor plus your sig stones plus your AG, but Namor will not be sig 100 since you did not technically get sig levels for those max dups, just a max sig crystal which you get to keep.
@Kabam Miike question three: how is that data normalized?
To put it more colloquially, when the data charts show a champ doing, say, 2000 DPS, which version of the champ is that? If you datamined every single time someone took Cull into Realm of Legends, that would be rank 3s, 4s, and 5s. It would be 4* and 5*s. The data would be a blended mix of DPS numbers from different rank, tier, and sig levels. When you compare two champs together, how do you know that X outdamages Y, when it could be that more people rank up X higher than Y, so the distribution of X is naturally higher than Y, and that's partially why X generates more damage faster than Y. Did you somehow try to factor that distribution out of the data, or did you decide to just go with whatever people are using, which means all of the DPS data (and all the data in general) is skewed towards rank up decisions.
For example, again looking at Cull, you show a chart showing that Cull's damage increases with player skill. But isn't it possible that the higher the player skill the more likely they are to be using a higher rank and higher sig level version of the champion? Wouldn't that also contribute to higher damage?
How do you account for these kinds of skews so you're comparing apples to apples?
I used a 4-5 rank up gem on my cull. All I want to know is IF I sold him will I get back the cosmic 4-5 gem or equivalent t5b, t2a etc because there’s a big difference between the 2
At this point of the whole rebalance conversation it really is what it is. The issue concerning me is, and let’s be honest/fair, some people spent a lot of money for a chance at these specific champs. Including quite a few that just kept spending until they got them. I love cull, he’s one of my favorites but I agree he’s a little much once he’s fully ramped, so I understand a balance. But when saying “sell” cull back to us and get mats instead of rank down tickets this is kind of infuriating. I spent a lot to have him in my roster but with the changes I may not want him at that rank/level/sig. I think it’s absolutely laughable that people would even think they’re entitled to a monetary refund but I do think there are other ways ahead. The money spent to obtain him versus all the grinding to rank him are different. Completely giving up the champion is honestly insulting. Maybe I want him at 1/25 just as another fighter in the arena or maybe he’s my favorite character and I just want to see him in my roster. Whatever the case may be for each individual I do not believe that asking us to sell off our champion to accommodate the rank down issue of a champion you were unable to properly gauge before the release to be fair or in the best interest of the game. You said that the sell back would be more complicated than rank down tickets, well by all means save your team some work and just issue the tickets.
Ps sorry if there are a lot of typos. Corrected what I saw.
You know they're returning the champion to you after you sell him right? If you sell a R5/65, you will get a R1 lvl 1 Cull back plus all the mats/gold/iso you used to rank him up
I did not know this. I misunderstood or missed this In the initial post. Perfect example of a “slow down and read it 3 times” situation
At this point of the whole rebalance conversation it really is what it is. The issue concerning me is, and let’s be honest/fair, some people spent a lot of money for a chance at these specific champs. Including quite a few that just kept spending until they got them. I love cull, he’s one of my favorites but I agree he’s a little much once he’s fully ramped, so I understand a balance. But when saying “sell” cull back to us and get mats instead of rank down tickets this is kind of infuriating. I spent a lot to have him in my roster but with the changes I may not want him at that rank/level/sig. I think it’s absolutely laughable that people would even think they’re entitled to a monetary refund but I do think there are other ways ahead. The money spent to obtain him versus all the grinding to rank him are different. Completely giving up the champion is honestly insulting. Maybe I want him at 1/25 just as another fighter in the arena or maybe he’s my favorite character and I just want to see him in my roster. Whatever the case may be for each individual I do not believe that asking us to sell off our champion to accommodate the rank down issue of a champion you were unable to properly gauge before the release to be fair or in the best interest of the game. You said that the sell back would be more complicated than rank down tickets, well by all means save your team some work and just issue the tickets.
Ps sorry if there are a lot of typos. Corrected what I saw.
You know they're returning the champion to you after you sell him right? If you sell a R5/65, you will get a R1 lvl 1 Cull back plus all the mats/gold/iso you used to rank him up
I did not know this. I misunderstood or missed this In the initial post. Perfect example of a “slow down and read it 3 times” situation
This can be it. Just remember to keep things on topic, because I would welcome a healthy conversation on how you guys feel we should handle rebalances going forward.
If the answer is "don't do it", I'm cancelling every Buff coming
As stated in the annihilus post, all are fine except him buff wise... The problem isn't maintaining his sp2 furies... Its building them up... I have a 5/65 sig 200 annihilus, and in higher content I haven't been able to get him above 5 or 6 stifles even when using the sp1, due to having to bait specials! Meaning you can't build alot of fury to use with the sp2... At 12 furies his damage is really nice... But getting there is nigh impossible if the opponent has an sp3 available! If I were to give different options to truly improve him
Either... 1. Increased the amount of time the stifles last in general before they expire 2. Substantially increase the amount of time the stifles are paused after an sp1 3. Make each stifle debuff decrease the opponents defensive powergain, so the more you build, the easier it is to play aggressive and build more up before an sp2 without having to bait specials constantly
The compensation will never make sense, because there are people that have spent real money on odin packs to either acquire the rebalanced champs through crystals or through refreshing champs on arenas. Putting a disclaimer saying that all of the champs you rank up may be rebalanced doesn't justify anything.
Can you imagine if you're playing FIFA, you spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to pack a 99 rated Messi / Van Dijk / Mbappe and in a few months EA decides to nerf him because he's "too good". Imagine doing that over and over again. It's only here.
Lets say I use an awakening gem on Namor and put 199 sig stones into him. Then a few weeks later I pull him 5 times from featured cav crystals (after he’s already at sig 200). What would I get back if I sold him? An AG, 199 sig stones, and a sig 100 Namor? Or just 100 sig stones and a sig 100 Namor?
Any dupes after max sig you won’t get back. In the example you provided you’ll get the AG back and 199 stones but no dupes on Namor.
For your champ to be duped when they return it you would’ve had to dupe him before max sig
Comments
As for how they quantify the "top 10%" I was assuming it was just an average of only the top 10% DPS values from all recorded fights with the champion. I don't think it has anything to do with player skill or roster size or anything like that. Could be wrong of course but that's how I understood it.
Feb 5th: 25.3 Releases: Changes are live, and you’ll be able to try them out in game.
Feb 10th - 24th: You’ll be able to sell your Cull Obsidian or Namor during this 2 week window.
February 24th: Selling window is closed. Our team will disable the ability to sell these Champions.
March 9th: Projected date to return any Namor/Cull Obsidian that was sold, along with any Duplicates received, Gold, ISO-8, Rank Up Gems, Awakening Gems, and Signature Stones.
What if I sell Namor and get it back from any crystal? Sell him again or keep him?
If, for example, you decided that moving for this "Sell the extras keep the dupes" type system is the new way forward then keep this system and implement for EVERY "tune down" moving forward. Dont pick and choose, just make it the norm. So when Dr Doom get rebalanced in 6 months you give players an ability to sell him and maintain any pulled copies while giving back the resources used on him.
Whatever you decide keep it consistent so players know what to expect and can plan accordingly when a rebalance in announced.
Ps sorry if there are a lot of typos. Corrected what I saw.
Thank you.
I still reserve the right to disagree (or agree) with your proposed changes
Community requested the data .. you guys provided ... Thank you!
Despite the few trolls still finding something to whine and complain about, i believe the majority are happy to see the data (even if they still disagree with your conclusions based on that data . .hehe )
I didn't get lucky enough to pull a 5* or 6* namor but I did spend money on those crystals trying to get it because of what he did in game, if namor wasn't as good as he was sold, I wouldn't have spent on those crystals to try to get him.
They did it to us when they too perfect block, they did it to us when they changed how willpower worked and then when they nerfed champs on 12.0.
I dont remember a change that actually helped the players...
I would rather time was spent bringing up some the bad champs than tuning down the great ones.
In the case of Cull and Namor, 2 champs from 120ish are found to be "too good" when most people are likely to never see either in their 5 or 6* roster at max rank/sig for a very, very long time and a smaller percentage again are skilled enough to use a champ to their full potential. The people doing that are going to wreck your content no matter what.
One thing I would really like to see is clarity around who is up for balance changes and a strict set of criteria developed to ensure all champs are being treated fairly. If DPS is it then that's fine but there are plenty of nodes and such that blunt even the heaviest hitters. I'd rather some effort was put into the matchup rather than blunting a champ in every facet of the game.
Correction, I found a dev post on this subject: under this scenario I belive you will get a Namor plus your sig stones plus your AG, but Namor will not be sig 100 since you did not technically get sig levels for those max dups, just a max sig crystal which you get to keep.
See: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/1109107/#Comment_1109107
To put it more colloquially, when the data charts show a champ doing, say, 2000 DPS, which version of the champ is that? If you datamined every single time someone took Cull into Realm of Legends, that would be rank 3s, 4s, and 5s. It would be 4* and 5*s. The data would be a blended mix of DPS numbers from different rank, tier, and sig levels. When you compare two champs together, how do you know that X outdamages Y, when it could be that more people rank up X higher than Y, so the distribution of X is naturally higher than Y, and that's partially why X generates more damage faster than Y. Did you somehow try to factor that distribution out of the data, or did you decide to just go with whatever people are using, which means all of the DPS data (and all the data in general) is skewed towards rank up decisions.
For example, again looking at Cull, you show a chart showing that Cull's damage increases with player skill. But isn't it possible that the higher the player skill the more likely they are to be using a higher rank and higher sig level version of the champion? Wouldn't that also contribute to higher damage?
How do you account for these kinds of skews so you're comparing apples to apples?
Buddy just sent me this photo. Maybe it’ll help another individual who didn’t get it
Either...
1. Increased the amount of time the stifles last in general before they expire
2. Substantially increase the amount of time the stifles are paused after an sp1
3. Make each stifle debuff decrease the opponents defensive powergain, so the more you build, the easier it is to play aggressive and build more up before an sp2 without having to bait specials constantly
Can you imagine if you're playing FIFA, you spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to pack a 99 rated Messi / Van Dijk / Mbappe and in a few months EA decides to nerf him because he's "too good". Imagine doing that over and over again. It's only here.
In the example you provided you’ll get the AG back and 199 stones but no dupes on Namor.
For your champ to be duped when they return it you would’ve had to dupe him before max sig