Anyway relax, kabam said they are going to revert it back to "timeouts cut health down by half" and they will leave it till they decide the best way to achieve their objective without causing mass rioting(if they can avoid that somehow which i doubt).
@Kabam Miike what if you removed the fight timer and replaced it with a different timer...? A bonus timer...
Idea is this: 1. Remove the 3min timers (or any variation of it - including the 15min final guarding champs next to Doom boss on map7). 2. A fight has a set amount of bonus points to give (maybe mini boss and final boss have higher amount than a standard path fight). 3. As the fight goes on, bonus points are slowly reduced, the longer you fight, the fewer bonus points you get - at some point, bonus points would be zero'd out or the points are reduced to flat amount for being able to solo the fight 4. The first encounter can award bonus points but any subsequent attempts - no bonus points available.
This idea awards skilled players and it awards you for bringing counters that can finish the fight quickly and cleanly. It also adds some dynamic to the AQ scoring that is less predictable. Right now, if there are 2 alliances that have similar prestige, let's say Ally A has 10,600 and Ally B has 10,601 and they both run Map 7 all 5 days and do all Master Modifiers, Ally B will always win right now in the rankings. But throwing this concept into the mix allows the skilled alliances and the ones that apply strategy to quickly and cleanly clear their paths can overcome such a shortage on the RNG prestige.
Corvus under this paradigm would still be an AQ beast and desirable (just in a different way) but not the end all solution for any/every path/fight.
That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.
It might be helpful if you were to specify what that rule is, because it doesn't seem obvious to me that any such rule would exist. Timeouts are supposed to reduce health by half. No reduction by half should kill anything. And outside of Corvus, there's another champ out there that demonstrates this principle: Gwenpool. Gwenpool cannot be killed by a special attack if she is awakened, because it is impossible for a special attack to reduce her to zero. Even if she is at 1% health, a special attack still doesn't kill her. Even if she is at 1 literal point of health, I don't think a special attack can kill her.
If your statement is true that surviving a timeout "breaks a rule" of the game, then Gwenpool shouldn't work the way she works either. Gwenpool doesn't even have any special "cheat death" mechanic per se. She simply reduces all special attack damage to be less than her current health. But the fact that Gwenpool *does* work the way she does, and has always obviously done so, blatantly seems to me to tell every player out there that anything that only deals a percentage of remaining health in damage to a champ cannot kill it.
This statement above is a pretty big surprise to me, and if I can't reconcile it with my understanding of how the game works, I feel confident in saying it is highly unlikely any player out there could possibly have had any basis for thinking that this is how the game should work. I think this demands explanation.
Aside from mechanics like AAR Gwenpool does die to a special at 1 HP. There was a video posted long ago using a Thor iirc.
To me the rule is simply you cannot timeout a fight without penalty and that is what people are doing, timing out without penalty.
That would make sense if the rule was that no champ should survive a timeout at one point of health, because if the game rounds to nearest whole number then, as you say, the champ no longer takes damage and thus avoids the penalty. But that should still be formally articulated as a game rule. "Any champ with one point of health dies when they take any non-zero damage, even if that damage ordinarily rounds to zero" is a logical rule.
The "Corvus exception" doesn't require any actual change to Corvus. The damage dealt to champions on a timeout simply has to be treated as special attack damage. This means if Corvus was at 2 points of health, he'd take a calculated 1 point of damage and be alive. If he was at 1 point of health he'd take a calculated 0.5 points of damage, which then triggers the special case rule for champs at one point of health, and he'd be dead (because that damage would break his Glaive).
You couldn't then argue that Corvus is supposed to survive, because special attack damage triggers the exception to Corvus surviving otherwise lethal damage.
1) Salve (and additional other game mechanics) would make a mechanic such as 50% moot. There needs to be wiggle room or every fight needs to heal blocked.
2) Did anyone have the time to investigate if such a rule already existed? Do we have any evidence of someone taking out an AQ fight with no HP by repeatedly timing out? I’ve seen Corvus return dead from a force quit (which btw kinda the same rule) and there was nowhere near this reaction; players accepted that. I’ve also seen Corvus return dead from a timeout (Prior to this bug) after glaives have been exhausted with him at no HP.
3) The need to be formally announced is untrue. It’s nearly impossible for a live game to live up to that standard. It’s does however need to be understandable and/or intuited by most players.
@Kabam Miike what if you removed the fight timer and replaced it with a different timer...? A bonus timer...
Idea is this: 1. Remove the 3min timers (or any variation of it - including the 15min final guarding champs next to Doom boss on map7). 2. A fight has a set amount of bonus points to give (maybe mini boss and final boss have higher amount than a standard path fight). 3. As the fight goes on, bonus points are slowly reduced, the longer you fight, the fewer bonus points you get - at some point, bonus points would be zero'd out or the points are reduced to flat amount for being able to solo the fight 4. The first encounter can award bonus points but any subsequent attempts - no bonus points available.
This idea awards skilled players and it awards you for bringing counters that can finish the fight quickly and cleanly. It also adds some dynamic to the AQ scoring that is less predictable. Right now, if there are 2 alliances that have similar prestige, let's say Ally A has 10,600 and Ally B has 10,601 and they both run Map 7 all 5 days and do all Master Modifiers, Ally B will always win right now in the rankings. But throwing this concept into the mix allows the skilled alliances and the ones that apply strategy to quickly and cleanly clear their paths can overcome such a shortage on the RNG prestige.
Corvus under this paradigm would still be an AQ beast and desirable (just in a different way) but not the end all solution for any/every path/fight.
The problem with that is the Timers are designed that way partly because it's an Alliance-based Event. We're not just being timed for our own skill. Without the Timers, Fights could extend beyond what allows other Players to complete the Map. To put it in other terms, we all have 24 hours to complete the Map and we share that time with other people.
I am having the same issue. My alliance plays Map 6 and some of these fights can be very long and result in a timeout. I’m out of resources and refuse to spend to revive when I’m laid off with no income,
There's no fight in map 6 that can't be done in 3 minutes.
Also just so you know, if the timer is removed or Corvus can’t do this anymore a lot of the endgame players (me included) will be looking for a cull/namor style thing with Corvus to recover rankup resources and awakening gems, I’m telling you now, if that doesn’t happen the map 7 community is going to be seriously pissed
As we mentioned, we don't know what our solution is right now, and compensation would be included.
Interesting, you don't know the solution before you threw out a change w/o even letting your customer be aware? What a great company.
As far as I know, you guys should have much bigger fish to fry, but why did you make this change at all when everyone is complaining something else, just for distraction? This is ridiculous and mean, do you even know how bad this change is? Just try to copy a top alliance and play map7 for a single day w/o Corvus, and spend your real f-- k -- g money, you will see why we are so angry.
He clarified that it wasn't meant to go live. It was part of an idea they were considering. That is their job, and they don't have to verify every idea before they implement it. (Not that it was meant to be implemented.)
3) The need to be formally announced is untrue. It’s nearly impossible for a live game to live up to that standard. It’s does however need to be understandable and/or intuited by most players.
Any "rule" that the devs use as the basis for a fundamental game change should be articulated to the players, and this is a trivial standard to follow. In fact, many MMOs I've played made it a point to at least try to always articulate such principles in their patch notes and bug lists.
Take a look at any online game that posts complete patch notes and bug lists. Many list the basis for a change when it isn't obvious from the problem statement. If something's attack was supposed to be 1500 and it is actually 1600, it would be pedantic to say that the guiding principle is that the numbers should be accurate. But when the devs say that a champion that is described as being able to avoid death under circumstances that would kill anything else isn't supposed to stay alive in one specific situation, then I do think disclosure is warranted. if i was in charge I would make it mandatory.
Let's say we decide it was supposed to be obvious that resetting a Corvus at low health is exploitive because his abilities are allowing him to stay alive when the game mechanics are supposed to kill him. Should I be worried if I do the same thing with Blade, use his healing to recover the half-health penalty from timing out over and over again? Because in point of fact, that's something I've done with Venom the Duck. Timeout knowing I've banked so much healing that it literally doesn't matter if I timeout.
To me it seems obvious this is something that a game operator intending to be transparent about mechanics would be compelled to clarify.
That said, Champions being able to survive a timeout at 1% Health is a bug. This breaks a rule of the structure of the game and needs to be addressed someday.
It might be helpful if you were to specify what that rule is, because it doesn't seem obvious to me that any such rule would exist. Timeouts are supposed to reduce health by half. No reduction by half should kill anything. And outside of Corvus, there's another champ out there that demonstrates this principle: Gwenpool. Gwenpool cannot be killed by a special attack if she is awakened, because it is impossible for a special attack to reduce her to zero. Even if she is at 1% health, a special attack still doesn't kill her. Even if she is at 1 literal point of health, I don't think a special attack can kill her.
If your statement is true that surviving a timeout "breaks a rule" of the game, then Gwenpool shouldn't work the way she works either. Gwenpool doesn't even have any special "cheat death" mechanic per se. She simply reduces all special attack damage to be less than her current health. But the fact that Gwenpool *does* work the way she does, and has always obviously done so, blatantly seems to me to tell every player out there that anything that only deals a percentage of remaining health in damage to a champ cannot kill it.
This statement above is a pretty big surprise to me, and if I can't reconcile it with my understanding of how the game works, I feel confident in saying it is highly unlikely any player out there could possibly have had any basis for thinking that this is how the game should work. I think this demands explanation.
Aside from mechanics like AAR Gwenpool does die to a special at 1 HP. There was a video posted long ago using a Thor iirc.
To me the rule is simply you cannot timeout a fight without penalty and that is what people are doing, timing out without penalty.
That would make sense if the rule was that no champ should survive a timeout at one point of health, because if the game rounds to nearest whole number then, as you say, the champ no longer takes damage and thus avoids the penalty. But that should still be formally articulated as a game rule. "Any champ with one point of health dies when they take any non-zero damage, even if that damage ordinarily rounds to zero" is a logical rule.
The "Corvus exception" doesn't require any actual change to Corvus. The damage dealt to champions on a timeout simply has to be treated as special attack damage. This means if Corvus was at 2 points of health, he'd take a calculated 1 point of damage and be alive. If he was at 1 point of health he'd take a calculated 0.5 points of damage, which then triggers the special case rule for champs at one point of health, and he'd be dead (because that damage would break his Glaive).
You couldn't then argue that Corvus is supposed to survive, because special attack damage triggers the exception to Corvus surviving otherwise lethal damage.
It doesn't work that way. Sometimes people run willpower and run corvus on a bleed node. You'll still heal and take block damage or whatever. You might finish the fight with timeout at 200 health. Still, k.o. now
I'm aware it doesn't work that way now. The point of discussion was whether it was reasonable to say that someone who times out at 1% health completely avoids any penalty. But they obviously don't, because they can still go lower in health. The only point of health where someone completely avoids the penalty is at one point of health. If the rule is "you shouldn't be able to avoid the penalty" then KOing a champ at 1% health is killing a champ that can still be penalized: he could still go lower in health.
If Kabam believes that below a certain point the penalty "doesn't matter" then I'd like to know where that line is and why. 1% health seems extremely arbitrary.
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
The only thing I wonder about is how do you fix this and stop people from using this tactic of pausing the game to save them self and actual timeouts while playing? If your actually playing and timeout and he doesn’t die with his charges up then that’s his ability and he shouldn’t die.
The only thing I wonder about is how do you fix this and stop people from using this tactic of pausing the game to save them self and actual timeouts while playing? If your actually playing and timeout and he doesn’t die with his charges up then that’s his ability and he shouldn’t die.
You could limit the number of Time Outs that are allowed.
It was kabam themselves who promoted the timeout strategy a while back when they changed it so the AI couldn’t get in the last hit or throw the L3 when just as the timer expired.
Maybe they should just revert it back to that way if they don’t want players timing out. I don’t agree with the tactic, it seems like an exploit, but I disagree with the way they made the changff Ed and their reasoning more. Math is math, you can never reach zero from number when that number is reduced by half, and even .001% has value. Just look at their published crystal drop rates.
Instead of taking away the cheese strategies players have resorted to, fix the reasons why they became strategies in the first place. If you’re going to move the goal posts, fine, but also change the method of reaching them proportionally too.
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
Soooo 1% of my r5 Doom’s HP is about 300 hp you telling me that there is no 50% of 300? Of 100? Of 10? Mathematically speaking your understanding makes no sense. The rule is your champ is knocked out at zero health points not 150 health points not even 1 hp. That’s just plain old logic
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
Health isn't based on %. If I go from one fight to the next with 250 health. That might be 1% but half that is 125 which is what I should start the next fight with
Health may not be, but the way the Time Out resetter works might be. I just explained my understanding of what's been said here.
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
Health isn't based on %. If I go from one fight to the next with 250 health. That might be 1% but half that is 125 which is what I should start the next fight with
Health may not be, but the way the Time Out resetter works might be. I just explained my understanding of what's been said here.
The timeout reset works on the principle that a champ will lose half of its health points at the time of the timeout. So it should not matter if I have 10k health or 10 health my penalty is half that number. I agree that if a champ is a 1 hp at the time of the timeout that champ should be k.o.’d as health has only ever been measured in whole numbers but this 1% ish is a load of carp.
A real solution would be to remove the ability to pause during timed Fights altogether. The Timer continues anyway. Never got the point of it myself. If you can't finish it in the allotted time, take the L.
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
Health isn't based on %. If I go from one fight to the next with 250 health. That might be 1% but half that is 125 which is what I should start the next fight with
Health may not be, but the way the Time Out resetter works might be. I just explained my understanding of what's been said here.
I honestly could care less how the time out resetter works. That's not my problem and literally has nothing to do with this and you sticking up for them like usual
Did you even read the words I typed? Someone asked to understand the logic so I tried to look at the logic from what I can see. If you're that bothered by my comments, why did you quote me and debate what I said?
We don’t think that this timeout play pattern is fun or healthy
These are fine objectives. I therefore look forward to AQ and AW energy caps being raised to 8, demonstrating official support of proper sleep habits.
This makes sense. Instead of having players log in 5+ times a day (out of 18 hours because sleep), it can be 3+ times if the player chooses without letting down his bg. The players that play 2+ hours a day 5 days a week can still do so, so only a net positive on the player's health.
Wait, @DNA3000 . I guess you support this constant garbage shoved at you? Stop being a puppet dude
It seems the people who think this change is absurd aren't willing to consider the idea that at a higher level such a change might be necessary for the game, while the people who think this change is entirely reasonable think this is just how game development is supposed to happen. I'm not sure who you think I'm being a puppet of exactly, but this is clearly one of those issues where I am unlikely to be anything more than target practice in no-man's land.
Wait, @DNA3000 . I guess you support this constant garbage shoved at you? Stop being a puppet dude
It seems the people who think this change is absurd aren't willing to consider the idea that at a higher level such a change might be necessary for the game, while the people who think this change is entirely reasonable think this is just how game development is supposed to happen. I'm not sure who you think I'm being a puppet of exactly, but this is clearly one of those issues where I am unlikely to be anything more than target practice in no-man's land.
I've been around a while and I understand that this mechanic probably shouldn't of been here from the start but it has been for 2 years and now out of nowhere it's getting fixed because it's a "bug". The only reason this is getting "fixed" is because of 💲. There is honestly no other explanation. Each time corvus denies a death in AQ it's money out of kabam's pockets. That's just the way it is
I don't know why this has to keep being said but I'll say it again. The goal is to fix the "bug" with a proper solution so players don't have to rely on it to do map 7. So idea they are doing this for money seems to be completely false. It will be put back to what it was before the accidental update, allowing people to continue to use the "bug" until a proper solution is found. That doesn't sound like it's just for money now does it?
Mike already said they won't fix it so it's fine for now, beside we gonna have another compensation.Why people not relax a bit, and stop using "cash grab" term everytime to reason against bug or anything, because i don't see any sense in it
A real solution would be to remove the ability to pause during timed Fights altogether. The Timer continues anyway. Never got the point of it myself. If you can't finish it in the allotted time, take the L.
I still can’t wrap my head around the Kabam logic that no champ should survive a time out at 1% health. Is the rule not that champs are knocked out when their hp reaches zero? Are they proposing changing the rule to champs are now knocked out if they have less than 1% but more than zero if it’s a timeout? Somebody make it make sense please. I’m so confused right
Time Out is meant to remove 50% of their Health. 50% of 1% isn't a thing that's supposed to happen. At least that's the understanding I have.
Health isn't based on %. If I go from one fight to the next with 250 health. That might be 1% but half that is 125 which is what I should start the next fight with
Health may not be, but the way the Time Out resetter works might be. I just explained my understanding of what's been said here.
I honestly could care less how the time out resetter works. That's not my problem and literally has nothing to do with this and you sticking up for them like usual
Did you even read the words I typed? Someone asked to understand the logic so I tried to look at the logic from what I can see. If you're that bothered by my comments, why did you quote me and debate what I said?
You say you looked at the logic and came to an understanding even though kabam’s explanation contradicts the rules they put in place. The half health penalty has been in the game longer than our ability to see health as a percentage. The penalty was even introduced as half of the champs health not 50% of the champs health. Logically speaking health has always, since the inception of AQ and AW, been measured as a whole number not a percentage in AQ and AW. Notice how health pots and revives in alliance mode are based on whole numbers not percentages. Again I say this 1% ish is a load of carp. If the results of the existing half health penalty is still a whole number above zero a champion should not be knocked out. I don’t know how that doesn’t make sense to you
So I've read a lot of what's been written here but not all so apologies if what I say has already been written.
CG dupe ability should absolutely function as written. It shouldn't be considered a bug for his ability to work as it currently does.
That said, pausing the game and allowing the timer to expire seems to me to be a clear exploit.
Solution seems very obvious to me. Don't change the current way timing out works. If someone can dance around the length of a fight and survive...more power to them. They earned it.
Simply change how the timer works. Pause the game, pause the timer. Quit the fight, ko.
That leaves all the champs with cheat death intact and eliminates the exploit.
Comments
Idea is this:
1. Remove the 3min timers (or any variation of it - including the 15min final guarding champs next to Doom boss on map7).
2. A fight has a set amount of bonus points to give (maybe mini boss and final boss have higher amount than a standard path fight).
3. As the fight goes on, bonus points are slowly reduced, the longer you fight, the fewer bonus points you get - at some point, bonus points would be zero'd out or the points are reduced to flat amount for being able to solo the fight
4. The first encounter can award bonus points but any subsequent attempts - no bonus points available.
This idea awards skilled players and it awards you for bringing counters that can finish the fight quickly and cleanly. It also adds some dynamic to the AQ scoring that is less predictable. Right now, if there are 2 alliances that have similar prestige, let's say Ally A has 10,600 and Ally B has 10,601 and they both run Map 7 all 5 days and do all Master Modifiers, Ally B will always win right now in the rankings. But throwing this concept into the mix allows the skilled alliances and the ones that apply strategy to quickly and cleanly clear their paths can overcome such a shortage on the RNG prestige.
Corvus under this paradigm would still be an AQ beast and desirable (just in a different way) but not the end all solution for any/every path/fight.
1) Salve (and additional other game mechanics) would make a mechanic such as 50% moot. There needs to be wiggle room or every fight needs to heal blocked.
2) Did anyone have the time to investigate if such a rule already existed? Do we have any evidence of someone taking out an AQ fight with no HP by repeatedly timing out? I’ve seen Corvus return dead from a force quit (which btw kinda the same rule) and there was nowhere near this reaction; players accepted that. I’ve also seen Corvus return dead from a timeout (Prior to this bug) after glaives have been exhausted with him at no HP.
3) The need to be formally announced is untrue. It’s nearly impossible for a live game to live up to that standard. It’s does however need to be understandable and/or intuited by most players.
(Not that it was meant to be implemented.)
Take a look at any online game that posts complete patch notes and bug lists. Many list the basis for a change when it isn't obvious from the problem statement. If something's attack was supposed to be 1500 and it is actually 1600, it would be pedantic to say that the guiding principle is that the numbers should be accurate. But when the devs say that a champion that is described as being able to avoid death under circumstances that would kill anything else isn't supposed to stay alive in one specific situation, then I do think disclosure is warranted. if i was in charge I would make it mandatory.
Let's say we decide it was supposed to be obvious that resetting a Corvus at low health is exploitive because his abilities are allowing him to stay alive when the game mechanics are supposed to kill him. Should I be worried if I do the same thing with Blade, use his healing to recover the half-health penalty from timing out over and over again? Because in point of fact, that's something I've done with Venom the Duck. Timeout knowing I've banked so much healing that it literally doesn't matter if I timeout.
To me it seems obvious this is something that a game operator intending to be transparent about mechanics would be compelled to clarify.
If Kabam believes that below a certain point the penalty "doesn't matter" then I'd like to know where that line is and why. 1% health seems extremely arbitrary.
Maybe they should just revert it back to that way if they don’t want players timing out. I don’t agree with the tactic, it seems like an exploit, but I disagree with the way they made the changff Ed and their reasoning more. Math is math, you can never reach zero from number when that number is reduced by half, and even .001% has value. Just look at their published crystal drop rates.
Instead of taking away the cheese strategies players have resorted to, fix the reasons why they became strategies in the first place. If you’re going to move the goal posts, fine, but also change the method of reaching them proportionally too.
CG dupe ability should absolutely function as written. It shouldn't be considered a bug for his ability to work as it currently does.
That said, pausing the game and allowing the timer to expire seems to me to be a clear exploit.
Solution seems very obvious to me. Don't change the current way timing out works. If someone can dance around the length of a fight and survive...more power to them. They earned it.
Simply change how the timer works. Pause the game, pause the timer. Quit the fight, ko.
That leaves all the champs with cheat death intact and eliminates the exploit.
Y'all should hire me lol.