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  • SatsuiNoHadouSatsuiNoHadou Member Posts: 753 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Haji_Saab said:

    xNig said:

    To be honest, I've played pretty much since the start and maybe I've not played in a high enough alliance or maybe I haven't had as much luck with RNG but I definitely struggled during Act 6 exploration and didn't always have good counters regardless of rank up resources, I consider myself a reasonable player too.
    For those people who do have newer accounts and are motivated to push progress I think hearing that once they get to a point they need to wait potentially for months or years until RNG gives them what they need to satisfy gates AND those champs be able to clear the content must be hugely disheartening. If the situation was flipped I'd probably have called it a day.

    Of course you'll have some variance in things depending on how much and at what level people are playing at. I also am not blaming the players for the situation at least solely. It's a combination of there being more access to higher tier rewards and just more resources in general than those of us playing act 5 at release and players feeling they need to "catch up".

    There are people complaining about act 6 that have only done one pass through Act 5 and never even attempted exploration yet. It's no real surprise they're finding it insanely difficult.

    That's why I see what they were attempting with the 6.2 gates in forcing players to stop and regroup before pushing forward. They went a bit too far to an extent though. 6.2.2 Sinister, the 6.2.5 gates, and 6.2.6 are too prohibitive in my opinion but outside of those instances I much prefer the design of 6.2 over the ultra specific nodes and insane attack and health we got in 6.3 and 6.4 personally.
    Same point, worded differently.

    If only A6 had an Elder’s Bane gate, and A7, Throne Breaker.
    If Act 6 was HEAVILY tuned down, that could be acceptable. Especially if Kabam listens and rethinks their approach to progressive story content so Act 7 isn't over-the-top obnoxious with nodes on nodes on nodes. Otherwise, it's just asking people to not bother at all with the story content anymore.
    Ok Act 6 heavily toned down. Act 7 toned down in a similar way. So, which content will be left to actually challenge your r5 and 6*r3 rosters?

    We need something, right? Should they change Variant difficulty to same as Variant 1? Because I know people will kick up a bigger storm if they made future variants difficult now.
    For most players in the game, Act 6 is already more difficult than they will likely be able to do even with a team of R3s.

    At this point, Act 6 is already here and I think directly toning it down beyond some limited changes to some fights (Sinister, Champion) would be a bridge too far. But I think there are ways to make it easier for average players to complete without removing the overall difficulty of Act 6 from the game for those that want the challenge (and commensurate rewards). For example, I suggested expanding on the idea of 6.3 buffs to offer less skilled players a way to buff themselves up in specific ways to make the content more achievable, for a lower but still reasonable set of rewards, leaving the current Act 6 here for if and when they can do it without those training wheels.

    It isn't hard, for example, to conceive of a fury proccing buff to help players past 6.2 Sinister. Or maybe a cycling indestructible for the Champion boss to give them short windows where they can more safely attempt dexes. Something that falls into the category of not completely neutering the content, but still offering a path forward for players that aren't able to get past the full difficulty version.

    Book 2 could do the reverse. The standard version could be the easier version, and then a challenge mode system could be added to give higher tier players multiple replay opportunities. You could add nodes to increase difficulty to Act 6-like levels, and even higher nodes to increase difficulty to beyond Act 6 levels for the absolute highest players. If it is designed from the start for this kind of system, we could generate a lot more endgame-like content for high tier players than we are getting now, and for much less development time.

    The key is to make sure the challenge modes are sufficiently interesting that higher tier players want to match up against them, rather than just being something to survive. They have to want to beat it, not feel compelled to beat it for the rewards. And I think that's possible, especially if you beta test the ideas among the higher tier players in the first place, or even have them contribute to it, ala Boss Rush.
    Pretty much like a FF7 new game plus mode
  • StevieManWonderStevieManWonder Member Posts: 5,019 ★★★★★
    RogerRabs said:

    Does anyone else feel like they've hit a stage in the game where a 5 star crystal isn't worth much, but you're also not getting 6 star crystals frequently enough to keep you engaged? At this point I only have like a 5-10% chance of pulling a new champ or first time dupe from a 5 star basic. The majority are just useless signature levels on champs I don't use. But I'm also not a big spender so I am not getting more than 1 six star crystal a month.

    It's left me in a weird place where I just don't feel like there's a huge reason for me to be pushing in AQ/AW.

    That’s where I’m at. I get five stars frequently and despite there still being around 55 champs in the basic that I still don’t have, I get duped around 95% of the time. Five stars are no longer exciting to get so I just pop them now when I need iso. I don’t get six stars frequently either, I get maybe one every two-three months and out the past 10 crystals, I only pulled one good champion and that was Havok yesterday.
  • SiliyoSiliyo Member Posts: 1,467 ★★★★★

    I'm the last person to think that everything released should be peak difficulty content designed for the very top level rosters, but to think that everyone else should get everything they want easier and we just get stuck off to the side to get some titles, other stuff no one cares about, or just use worse champs is laughable.

    Well Miike and others love to say “this is permanent content!” so they should apply that logic to adding Challenges - they can make them permanent but not to be done by all players on release day.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    @xNig

    so you are saying i need to have 33 r3s to deal with act 6 lol.

    with 33 r5 of course variant isn't going to be hard. Try doing it with r3s or 4*s.

    people keep saying they need it to be more challenging, how many of you guys are using the OP champs like Ghost, Corvus Quake etc. If you have these champs ofc the difficulty/challenge isn't going to be there..

    Take LoL , it used to take multiple revives and alot of skill to do it. Now just go in with Aegon/ Nick fury and you are literally steam rolling through it. I managed to get Maestro down by 80% with Sparky in one go.

    You can argue all day that Act 6 is fine as is but the numbers don't lie. People haven't been playing Act 6, people are spending less time in the game. Kabam had already acknowledged that with their 6.3 announcement and reversal of gates and have also come out to say they will look into what they can do to improve the experience of act 6 in their announcement. If Kabam are willing to do that it clearly means they missed the mark with something and it isn't a few newbie players going into act 6 after initial clear of Act 5.




    You're kinda just giving his point more ammo here. I may not have 33 R5s, I "only" have 27. When you get to 6*s though, I have 6 R3s and 10 R2s. Those are the kinds of rosters they've been making content to challenge. The question is whether or not they should have been doing it with the content they have been or not really. If the answer is no, well where things go from here and how is what needs to be figured out.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    @Worknprogress

    you also f2p ?

    No.....because your just helping to make my point which is act 6 is not friendly to the normal f2p player. Rosters are completely based on RNG. If you spend on crystals or you spend hours in arena grinding units and even going for the 5* Arena then you can circumvent the RNG to a degree as you either grind for counters/champions or you increase the chance of pulling the champs by spinning more crystals.
    There is no method in the game to work towards unlocking champions or even any crystal available which is class specific unless you buy the special class specific crystals they sell. So having very niche fights punishes players for bad luck. Also they sell crystals that contain champs that excel at a particular aspect in the game such as critical rate crystal. Again these are bought.


    If you guys thing that's how the game should be then cool. Enjoy the game. If that's the direction Kabam will continue to take after they have finished sketching out a long term plan then i'll just walk away from the game as its not for me. I'm already spending less time in the game because of this. I am not the only one who feels like this, which you can see from the fact there is 83 pages in this thread as well as many other threads on the forums etc about similar complaints.


    Not remotely f2p nor have I ever even hinted that I might be. But considering everyone has to pay for progress in this game whether it be with money, time, or a combination of the two, is it not reasonable to assume that someone that's f2p may not be able to tackle the hardest content in the game as quickly as someone who spends? Now I've already stated there were a few areas I thought were a bit too restrictive across Act 6, but the idea that someone who's f2p should be able to do all end game content itemless when it's released always is quite flawed in my opinion.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Member Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:


    No.....because your just helping to make my point which is act 6 is not friendly to the normal f2p player. Rosters are completely based on RNG. If you spend on crystals or you spend hours in arena grinding units and even going for the 5* Arena then you can circumvent the RNG to a degree as you either grind for counters/champions or you increase the chance of pulling the champs by spinning more crystals.
    There is no method in the game to work towards unlocking champions or even any crystal available which is class specific unless you buy the special class specific crystals they sell. So having very niche fights punishes players for bad luck. Also they sell crystals that contain champs that excel at a particular aspect in the game such as critical rate crystal. Again these are bought.

    Of course Kabam wants fights that can only be done with certain champions. That facilitates progression in the players. If we could just ram through content with whatever champs we wanted, there would be no use for new champs.

    Think about it. If every fight was like the Grandmaster fight, then there would be no need for Kabam to roll out new champions, because the fight can be done with any champion. If niche fights didn't exist, Kabam would not need to make champions that could counter that niche fight.

    This game relies on obtaining certain champions and using those specific champions to complete specific content. Do I think that content is going to be harder for f2p players like you and me? Of course. Should it stay that way? Yes. Because if p2p players have no advantage over f2p players, they're not going to spend any money. Do I think that crystals can be revamped, such as introducing a class crystal for 15,000-20,000 shards? Yes. Do I think that p2p players should have advantages over f2p players? Yes.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,634 Guardian

    Bidzy7 said:

    @Worknprogress

    you also f2p ?

    No.....because your just helping to make my point which is act 6 is not friendly to the normal f2p player. Rosters are completely based on RNG. If you spend on crystals or you spend hours in arena grinding units and even going for the 5* Arena then you can circumvent the RNG to a degree as you either grind for counters/champions or you increase the chance of pulling the champs by spinning more crystals.
    There is no method in the game to work towards unlocking champions or even any crystal available which is class specific unless you buy the special class specific crystals they sell. So having very niche fights punishes players for bad luck. Also they sell crystals that contain champs that excel at a particular aspect in the game such as critical rate crystal. Again these are bought.


    If you guys thing that's how the game should be then cool. Enjoy the game. If that's the direction Kabam will continue to take after they have finished sketching out a long term plan then i'll just walk away from the game as its not for me. I'm already spending less time in the game because of this. I am not the only one who feels like this, which you can see from the fact there is 83 pages in this thread as well as many other threads on the forums etc about similar complaints.


    Not remotely f2p nor have I ever even hinted that I might be. But considering everyone has to pay for progress in this game whether it be with money, time, or a combination of the two, is it not reasonable to assume that someone that's f2p may not be able to tackle the hardest content in the game as quickly as someone who spends? Now I've already stated there were a few areas I thought were a bit too restrictive across Act 6, but the idea that someone who's f2p should be able to do all end game content itemless when it's released always is quite flawed in my opinion.
    My position has always been that dividing players into free to play and not free to play is mostly an artificial distinction in MCOC, because there's more overlap between spenders and F2P players than there are progressional differences. Arena grinders can outpace all but the highest spenders in the game. An F2P player that puts a lot of time into grinding can exceed the progress of a more casual player that spends a significant amount.

    F2P vs spending would only be a significant distinction in this game if spending offered specific and significant advantages that gameplay itself couldn't overcome, and with only marginal exceptions that's not true for MCOC.

    But while it isn't a useful distinction, it is a damaging one. It promotes the notion that the game prefers one over the other, and improvements for one must come at the expense of the other. *Sometimes* that's true; specifically when it comes to how to set the value of cash offers. The higher the value, the more value spenders get and the more that playtime gets relatively devalued. But in many other respects including the most important, both kinds of players face the same problems. The difficulty issues in Act 6 hit most spending players just as hard as F2P players. Heck, I suspect I have a better roster than most players who spend, and while I do spend occasionally it is almost always on rank up material offers, not crystals. I use arena grind units for that, which any F2P arena grinder could do just as easily.

    Most players who spend on the game aren't spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on unlimited champion crystals. They are spending moderate amounts of cash comparable in return to moderate amounts of arena grinding, many of them to compensate for the fact that they don't have the time to grind. For those players, who probably represent most spenders, telling them they have some special advantage that the F2P players don't have only tells them they shouldn't bother participating in any discussion to improve things for F2P players.

    I think this is a mistake.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    @Worknprogress

    you also f2p ?

    No.....because your just helping to make my point which is act 6 is not friendly to the normal f2p player. Rosters are completely based on RNG. If you spend on crystals or you spend hours in arena grinding units and even going for the 5* Arena then you can circumvent the RNG to a degree as you either grind for counters/champions or you increase the chance of pulling the champs by spinning more crystals.
    There is no method in the game to work towards unlocking champions or even any crystal available which is class specific unless you buy the special class specific crystals they sell. So having very niche fights punishes players for bad luck. Also they sell crystals that contain champs that excel at a particular aspect in the game such as critical rate crystal. Again these are bought.


    If you guys thing that's how the game should be then cool. Enjoy the game. If that's the direction Kabam will continue to take after they have finished sketching out a long term plan then i'll just walk away from the game as its not for me. I'm already spending less time in the game because of this. I am not the only one who feels like this, which you can see from the fact there is 83 pages in this thread as well as many other threads on the forums etc about similar complaints.


    Not remotely f2p nor have I ever even hinted that I might be. But considering everyone has to pay for progress in this game whether it be with money, time, or a combination of the two, is it not reasonable to assume that someone that's f2p may not be able to tackle the hardest content in the game as quickly as someone who spends? Now I've already stated there were a few areas I thought were a bit too restrictive across Act 6, but the idea that someone who's f2p should be able to do all end game content itemless when it's released always is quite flawed in my opinion.
    My position has always been that dividing players into free to play and not free to play is mostly an artificial distinction in MCOC, because there's more overlap between spenders and F2P players than there are progressional differences. Arena grinders can outpace all but the highest spenders in the game. An F2P player that puts a lot of time into grinding can exceed the progress of a more casual player that spends a significant amount.

    F2P vs spending would only be a significant distinction in this game if spending offered specific and significant advantages that gameplay itself couldn't overcome, and with only marginal exceptions that's not true for MCOC.

    But while it isn't a useful distinction, it is a damaging one. It promotes the notion that the game prefers one over the other, and improvements for one must come at the expense of the other. *Sometimes* that's true; specifically when it comes to how to set the value of cash offers. The higher the value, the more value spenders get and the more that playtime gets relatively devalued. But in many other respects including the most important, both kinds of players face the same problems. The difficulty issues in Act 6 hit most spending players just as hard as F2P players. Heck, I suspect I have a better roster than most players who spend, and while I do spend occasionally it is almost always on rank up material offers, not crystals. I use arena grind units for that, which any F2P arena grinder could do just as easily.

    Most players who spend on the game aren't spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on unlimited champion crystals. They are spending moderate amounts of cash comparable in return to moderate amounts of arena grinding, many of them to compensate for the fact that they don't have the time to grind. For those players, who probably represent most spenders, telling them they have some special advantage that the F2P players don't have only tells them they shouldn't bother participating in any discussion to improve things for F2P players.

    I think this is a mistake.
    I'm speaking of heavy spenders as that's my own personal viewpoint. I can't speak from the casual spenders viewpoint bc I'm not one personally. I probably should have made that distinction.

    I've also never considered this a p2w game as regardless of how many champs you have ranked, if you never actually play the game you won't have a clue how to use them.

    And you're absolutely right that f2p players can absolutely keep up with casual players as I've played with people that we're f2p in every alliance I've been in barring one. There are a lot of players these days that seem to think that they should be able to do all content never using units (from arena or otherwise) or even items you can farm. Those are the people I don't understand complaining about not being able to beat the hardest content for extended periods of time.
  • Bidzy7Bidzy7 Member Posts: 369 ★★★
    @Worknprogress

    I didn't say anything about doing it item less. If players want to do things item less then i would expect them to be either very skilled or very determined like BG was with his 6.2 itemless runs.

    You also seem to be missing my point which isn't f2p should be able to complete the content in the same time as spenders. Spending is always going to give players advantage and allow them to progress at a faster pace. That will always be the case and thats perfectly fine as they have paid for the privilege of that. My issue is the ability to tackle content based on RNG pulls.
    I'm f2p I have 100% 6.3. I didn't do it on release ( i did do intial run within first few days) i didn't even do it in a month. It took me several months. I chipped away at it while improving my roster in areas which i needed to in order to get past certain content. For example deciding to use my Mystic AG on Dr voodoo and taking him to r5 to help with poison and resistor paths as well as dealing with power gain. However the paths where i needed to use him or other champs i put off, waiting to pull other champs or better counters. Crystal after crystal i wasn't getting the champs i needed to tackle certain nodes like Mysterio Acid wash. How is this situation fair because i didn't pull Man thing or KG that i've got a hard wall to deal with which has no reflection on my skill but is solely down to my RNG luck ?
    after months i ended up just throwing revives at the fight and using other champs because i was over waiting for the right counter. Is that really good design to you ?

    6.2% is at about 70% . This is content that's been out for a year. A year i have waited to pull certain champs to help with the paths which wouldn't need me to throw excessive units at to get past or need me doing 400 hits just to get past 1 fight.

    This is also creates a even more frustrating experience with crystal openings, when you can't pull the champs you need to get past content.


  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,634 Guardian

    There are a lot of players these days that seem to think that they should be able to do all content never using units (from arena or otherwise) or even items you can farm. Those are the people I don't understand complaining about not being able to beat the hardest content for extended periods of time.

    Well, they're wrong. But at least the people complaining about the monthly quest being too hard twelve minutes after it goes live seem to have gone mostly extinct.

    I think the highest tier players often, if not almost always overestimate the capabilities of the average player, and I try to keep that in mind. But no one should ever think I condone laziness either. You have to play the game, and if you want to be good at it you have to practice and learn, just like everything else, including every game more complex than tic tac toe. MCOC is, and should not be, any different. I don't expect the game to hand anyone a victory, even though it might seem that way on a relative basis to some very high tier players. Free victories are pointless anyway. Players need to be challenged, or winning is worthless.

    We just need to make sure what we're asking of most players is reasonable. And that's subjective, but that just means we can't rely on calculus to tell us what reasonable is; we have to use values. We have to make a judgment.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    @Worknprogress

    I didn't say anything about doing it item less. If players want to do things item less then i would expect them to be either very skilled or very determined like BG was with his 6.2 itemless runs.

    You also seem to be missing my point which isn't f2p should be able to complete the content in the same time as spenders. Spending is always going to give players advantage and allow them to progress at a faster pace. That will always be the case and thats perfectly fine as they have paid for the privilege of that. My issue is the ability to tackle content based on RNG pulls.
    I'm f2p I have 100% 6.3. I didn't do it on release ( i did do intial run within first few days) i didn't even do it in a month. It took me several months. I chipped away at it while improving my roster in areas which i needed to in order to get past certain content. For example deciding to use my Mystic AG on Dr voodoo and taking him to r5 to help with poison and resistor paths as well as dealing with power gain. However the paths where i needed to use him or other champs i put off, waiting to pull other champs or better counters. Crystal after crystal i wasn't getting the champs i needed to tackle certain nodes like Mysterio Acid wash. How is this situation fair because i didn't pull Man thing or KG that i've got a hard wall to deal with which has no reflection on my skill but is solely down to my RNG luck ?
    after months i ended up just throwing revives at the fight and using other champs because i was over waiting for the right counter. Is that really good design to you ?

    6.2% is at about 70% . This is content that's been out for a year. A year i have waited to pull certain champs to help with the paths which wouldn't need me to throw excessive units at to get past or need me doing 400 hits just to get past 1 fight.

    This is also creates a even more frustrating experience with crystal openings, when you can't pull the champs you need to get past content.


    Yeah and I've already said I agree with you that I feel that some of it is too restrictive with as random as champion acquisition is in this game currently. While I definitely don't think they should eliminate RNG completely, I wouldn't mind seeing an option to at least increase odds at an increased cost for certain types of champs added. I don't think people should be able to get whatever champ they want from any crystal all the time but if they're going to make fights with such specific counters they should do a better job at giving people an option to get them without spending small fortunes. That we agree on.

    My comment about doing content itemless wasn't directed at you specifically so I apologize if it sounded as such. Was just saying that I have seen that sort of expectation more frequently lately.
  • xNigxNig Member Posts: 7,330 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    @xNig

    so you are saying i need to have 33 r3s to deal with act 6 lol.

    with 33 r5 of course variant isn't going to be hard. Try doing it with r3s or 4*s.

    people keep saying they need it to be more challenging, how many of you guys are using the OP champs like Ghost, Corvus Quake etc. If you have these champs ofc the difficulty/challenge isn't going to be there..

    Take LoL , it used to take multiple revives and alot of skill to do it. Now just go in with Aegon/ Nick fury and you are literally steam rolling through it. I managed to get Maestro down by 80% with Sparky in one go.

    You can argue all day that Act 6 is fine as is but the numbers don't lie. People haven't been playing Act 6, people are spending less time in the game. Kabam had already acknowledged that with their 6.3 announcement and reversal of gates and have also come out to say they will look into what they can do to improve the experience of act 6 in their announcement. If Kabam are willing to do that it clearly means they missed the mark with something and it isn't a few newbie players going into act 6 after initial clear of Act 5.




    Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

    End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

    Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

    People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
  • sest22sest22 Member Posts: 933 ★★★
    The fighting system of Book 2 (Act 7), could be a system similar to AQ. That is, the difficulty of each Chapter is based on an algorithm that configures the difficulty, according to the team and the prestige of the team that is going to take the battle.
    I think it could be more adjusted to the profiles of each applicant and each experience would be unique, just like our profile. It should be clarified that obviously there must be a minimum requirement to be able to access the missions.
    Minimum of 5 and 6 star characters, prestige and specific characters (at least old and common characters), include a lot of the mechanics of Incursions, minimum of stars to play the highest difficulties.Here the paths could experience the option of specific characters to make the content more complex and reviving a mechanic in which the characters that are necessary are useful and increasing the temptation to obtain characters.

    Adding one more idea to this madness, they could create a link crystal in which, adding 20 common characters and 3 people from the top 10 list. Opening the crystal gives you 5 character options and you can only choose 1 character. But to obtain it you must have a fight based on the quality of the character chosen from among those 5 and have a very crazy fight against, Thanos, Knag, The Master, The Collector or the Grand Master. A very crazy skin with very difficult nodes and a single opportunity without being able to use power-ups, objects, or if you prefer, with a specific object that will give you a single upgrade. if you win you get the selected character and if you lose spin a roulette and you get one of the other options, but with the penalty of the best characters. It would have to be a very crazy and difficult battle, for the reward to be worth that contest ... hahaha
  • SatsuiNoHadouSatsuiNoHadou Member Posts: 753 ★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    @Worknprogress

    I didn't say anything about doing it item less. If players want to do things item less then i would expect them to be either very skilled or very determined like BG was with his 6.2 itemless runs.

    You also seem to be missing my point which isn't f2p should be able to complete the content in the same time as spenders. Spending is always going to give players advantage and allow them to progress at a faster pace. That will always be the case and thats perfectly fine as they have paid for the privilege of that. My issue is the ability to tackle content based on RNG pulls.
    I'm f2p I have 100% 6.3. I didn't do it on release ( i did do intial run within first few days) i didn't even do it in a month. It took me several months. I chipped away at it while improving my roster in areas which i needed to in order to get past certain content. For example deciding to use my Mystic AG on Dr voodoo and taking him to r5 to help with poison and resistor paths as well as dealing with power gain. However the paths where i needed to use him or other champs i put off, waiting to pull other champs or better counters. Crystal after crystal i wasn't getting the champs i needed to tackle certain nodes like Mysterio Acid wash. How is this situation fair because i didn't pull Man thing or KG that i've got a hard wall to deal with which has no reflection on my skill but is solely down to my RNG luck ?
    after months i ended up just throwing revives at the fight and using other champs because i was over waiting for the right counter. Is that really good design to you ?

    6.2% is at about 70% . This is content that's been out for a year. A year i have waited to pull certain champs to help with the paths which wouldn't need me to throw excessive units at to get past or need me doing 400 hits just to get past 1 fight.

    This is also creates a even more frustrating experience with crystal openings, when you can't pull the champs you need to get past content.


    This is my frank assessment on how things currently stand with regards to challenging content like the 6.2 The Champion boss:

    - Did the initial clear of 6.2.6 mid-late 2019 just to open up act 6.3 so I could do my legends run for that, I had to spend close to a thousand units just fighting the “easy path” Champion.
    - However, I revisited The Champion earlier this year when 6.4 just dropped just so I could go for a 100% push for my 6.4 legends. When doing so I was able to get one shots on The Champion now with way more experience, practice and skill than I had back then. The plain vanilla champion fight with his 5 charges really isn’t that difficult at all, seeing as how I can consistently get one shots when I’m doing guides or testing the viability of new champs. It’s all about practice guys, none of us started out as mcoc pro players from the get-go. You just need to buckle down and invest the time and effort to get better. Countless others have already paid their dues against this boss, and I don’t see why the status quo shouldn’t hold true moving forward.
    - In conclusion I would like to unequivocally state that the state of the “base” Champion boss with his indestructible charges is just fine, maybe just remove the no retreat node if it helps the less experienced players in the community, but keep everything else intact. That’s what made the whole fight fun and challenging in the first place. This is what end game content should be like and why we as players derive satisfaction from overcoming these obstacles.
    - P.S. my only major complaint about 6.2 was the senseless inclusion of gates that added a needless extra layer of restriction to our rosters for that particular chapter.

    The bottom line is this, endgame content at the point of release is meant to present the greatest current challenge, it is meant to test your skill, resolve and preparation. I’ve seen so many complaints about roster depth not being ready for the challenges, and if that’s the case, I’m sorry to say that you’re simply not ready yet. So, just take a step back, restrategize and tackle said content at a later date once you’re ready. There’s no need to rush headlong into clearing content due to impatience.

    On the argument that getting the ideal counter champions would take an eternity; well, that’s down to this being an gatcha game at its core when pulling for champions. Some get the rub of the green early on, others not so much. That’s just how all gatcha games are designed, mcoc isn’t meant to be your typical “1 time fee” Single player console/pc game.

    I do admit one of Kabam’s current dilemmas now is how to appease to both sides of the divide; those who have reached the endgame and are looking to be pushed to their limits once again, and those who are of the more casual variety. That being said, I personally play games to derive pleasure and fulfillment knowing that I’ve used everything in my current arsenal to beat it. It’s just like fighting those final fantasy secret bosses, you can’t possibly take them down without attaining the requisite skills, weapons, levels and strategies. If you rush in impatiently you’re bound to get slaughtered, and this is what I observe to be the mentality with the majority of the community. They’re not willing to put in the time, effort and patience to get to where they want to be. Sure, you can say that this game although being F2P has a pay-2-win model. But isn’t it the same as with other F2P games out there. There will always be a divide between the haves and the have-nots based on how willing one is to spend. But that’s an entirely personal prerogative.

    Just saying one should git good is an oversimplification, it’s about being able to manage your own expectations and coming to the realization that ultimately not everyone will ever be on equal footing based on how the game is structured as a pay 2 win game. It’s not as if this is shocking news, I’m sure we all knew what kind of game mcoc is when we started. It’s an easy to pick up and play game, but as the saying goes “a minute to learn, but a lifetime to master”. If you want to be able to take on the hardest content, you’d best be aware of what you’re stepping into.

    Finally, I’m sure a driving force behind the current discontent is also the FOMO mentality. Be content with your current pace, there’s always gonna be people ahead of and behind you. The no point in rushing to try to force yourself to keep up if you don’t have the time or financial means to do so. This is a very unhealthy way of looking at things. There’s no such thing as progression being awarded without any effort, having such an entitled mindset only breeds more discontent. I know where I stand, and I’m perfectly happy with my personal status quo. The endgame players that have such beautiful rosters and resources got to where they are because they deserve to based on the financial resources and time that they’ve invested. The question is, if you wish to be on the same level, then how willing are you to also invest what they have?
  • LunaeLunae Member Posts: 371 ★★★
    I think largely the truth is that average players are bored and I don’t blame them. If they don’t want to do act 6 exploration or can’t then I could see how they’d feel like there’s nothing left in game for them seeing how they’re not too happy with aq and aw either. Kabams biggest mistake is not creating more content that’s accessible to the average player, but in fairness variant and incursions were a step in the right direction.

    While I don’t necessary agree act 6 should be toned down to the level that most of the average players would be happy with I understand their sentiment of being left out and bored. If Kabam does greatly tone down act 6, to balance that out they’d need to make more endgame content or another endgame mode for end gamers or they’ll just end up bored next.

    Between story mode and event quest, aq and aw should be where all players stave off boredom and find a fun challenge more attuned to their place in the game, but no one seems to really enjoy those currently so they need to either be reworked or Kabam needs to design another game mode to fill that current void. If there was something else to really occupy their time I don’t think anyone would even really talk about acts 6 difficulty like no one really talks about lol or aol. When act 6 feels like a necessity of course average players would demand change.
  • StevieManWonderStevieManWonder Member Posts: 5,019 ★★★★★
    @Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy
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  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,551 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    @xNig

    so you are saying i need to have 33 r3s to deal with act 6 lol.

    with 33 r5 of course variant isn't going to be hard. Try doing it with r3s or 4*s.

    people keep saying they need it to be more challenging, how many of you guys are using the OP champs like Ghost, Corvus Quake etc. If you have these champs ofc the difficulty/challenge isn't going to be there..

    Take LoL , it used to take multiple revives and alot of skill to do it. Now just go in with Aegon/ Nick fury and you are literally steam rolling through it. I managed to get Maestro down by 80% with Sparky in one go.

    You can argue all day that Act 6 is fine as is but the numbers don't lie. People haven't been playing Act 6, people are spending less time in the game. Kabam had already acknowledged that with their 6.3 announcement and reversal of gates and have also come out to say they will look into what they can do to improve the experience of act 6 in their announcement. If Kabam are willing to do that it clearly means they missed the mark with something and it isn't a few newbie players going into act 6 after initial clear of Act 5.




    Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

    End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

    Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

    People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
    That's the point I made much earlier on. It's meant to grow into. Not to automatically have everything needed and hammer it out upon release. Certainly not for everyone. Although I can't ignore all of the feedback in saying it's too restrictive. I'd be too glib to do that. I see some validity in the number of people saying the same thing. However, I do agree on the point of powerful Champs. I made that point in reference to how easy it is for newer Players to get through to Uncollected and on. Players do what Players do, and YouTubers give many examples on how to get through content the easiest. The problem is with the number of people doing it now and how easy it is. You end up with a surplus of the population in Act 5 or finished, and they aren't all as advanced as they need to be for Act 6. The expectation is there that they should be, and as for the YouTubers, some of them are upset because that cuts into their content. No easy ways to post for people to watch. It's really a layered situation.
  • SatsuiNoHadouSatsuiNoHadou Member Posts: 753 ★★★

    @Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy

    And to add on to that, @StevieManWonder found using SS appropriate, and that’s not the only viable counter. For those who have been complaining that they “don’t possess suitable counters” when taking on 6.2 Champion I find that to be a bit of an over exaggeration. You just have to clear him once to gain access to 6.3 where you can progress further. And to clear him just once all you need is to use one out of counters like Dr Doom (my go to), She-hulk, Symbiote Supreme, Stealth Spidey, Capiw, Spider-Gwen, BWCV, Thing, Morningstar and Magik... These champs are relatively old as of now and you should already have access to at least one option by the time you reach The Champion.

    All one has to do is practice with these champs, rank up the ones you’re Most proficient with and have a go. It is this kind of defeatist attitude that’s proving a stumbling block to players who say they can’t do it without actually trying.
  • StevieManWonderStevieManWonder Member Posts: 5,019 ★★★★★
    Akumaccb said:

    @Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy

    And to add on to that, @StevieManWonder found using SS appropriate, and that’s not the only viable counter. For those who have been complaining that they “don’t possess suitable counters” when taking on 6.2 Champion I find that to be a bit of an over exaggeration. You just have to clear him once to gain access to 6.3 where you can progress further. And to clear him just once all you need is to use one out of counters like Dr Doom (my go to), She-hulk, Symbiote Supreme, Stealth Spidey, Capiw, Spider-Gwen, BWCV, Thing, Morningstar and Magik... These champs are relatively old as of now and you should already have access to at least one option by the time you reach The Champion.

    All one has to do is practice with these champs, rank up the ones you’re Most proficient with and have a go. It is this kind of defeatist attitude that’s proving a stumbling block to players who say they can’t do it without actually trying.
    I found Doom with Mister Fantastic’s Careful Study Passive to be the best answer to the No Retreat node but overall, SS is the best. Hood is also a fantastic counter to the Champion and he’s a fairly common pull.
  • SatsuiNoHadouSatsuiNoHadou Member Posts: 753 ★★★

    Akumaccb said:

    @Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy

    And to add on to that, @StevieManWonder found using SS appropriate, and that’s not the only viable counter. For those who have been complaining that they “don’t possess suitable counters” when taking on 6.2 Champion I find that to be a bit of an over exaggeration. You just have to clear him once to gain access to 6.3 where you can progress further. And to clear him just once all you need is to use one out of counters like Dr Doom (my go to), She-hulk, Symbiote Supreme, Stealth Spidey, Capiw, Spider-Gwen, BWCV, Thing, Morningstar and Magik... These champs are relatively old as of now and you should already have access to at least one option by the time you reach The Champion.

    All one has to do is practice with these champs, rank up the ones you’re Most proficient with and have a go. It is this kind of defeatist attitude that’s proving a stumbling block to players who say they can’t do it without actually trying.
    I found Doom with Mister Fantastic’s Careful Study Passive to be the best answer to the No Retreat node but overall, SS is the best. Hood is also a fantastic counter to the Champion and he’s a fairly common pull.
    Exactly, these champs are not in short supply any longer.
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