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Carnage nerf before release....

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    Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    R4GE wrote: »
    @Draco2199 Back to your thread. I think it was a mistake on their end they they admitted to and plan to revise him in the future. Thats what I collected of the video

    I sure hope so, such a fan favorite champ and he's almost useless
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    HoidCosmereHoidCosmere Posts: 550 ★★
    Yes, it's been mentioned that they're having more discussions on him.

    Thanks for confirming, it provides valuable insight into what has already been said.
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    UnsaferBinkie7UnsaferBinkie7 Posts: 658 ★★
    dksyh7uggfbb.jpg

    @GroundedWisdom seems he blocked me, he never wants to answer me when I call him out on his bs. Cat.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,334 ★★★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    R4GE wrote: »
    DaMunk wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    Technically, a Champ has to be playable to consider it a nerf. Otherwise it's revisions to the design before the release.

    Technically even when you're wrong you're right is what you're saying. JHC

    I'm making a distinction. When a Champ is still being finalized, according to the intended outcome, and it hasn't been released yet, that's not a nerf. It's still being designed. A nerf is a major change to a Champ that exists. If their intentions for a Champ change, that's still revising. It's an important disticntion to make because this is a window into the process of making a Champ, and not a nerf to a Champ that is already playable. While the information was shared, it was not the same as implying they nerfed him. He wasn't even released yet.

    Nerf = downgrade or make changes to in order to weaken, or whatever term you want to come up with. You're changing the meaning of nerf and that it can't even be used for something until its released.

    There is a difference because that is not the same as nerfs that are commonly referred to here. When a Champ is still being finalized, that's a part of their design process. It's not a nerf. I'm making the distinction because the term was used loosely, and inevitably Nerf Posts will follow. The reality is, many changes are made in the design phase. Which is why they rarely talk about them. Questions about their processes follow.

    Just stop, Kabam said nerf. It was nerfed. You are wrong no matter what you respond with so why keep responding on the subject. Kabam even said he was nerfed to my face therefore no matter what your opinion is it is wrong as the creators themself said nerf. So not sure why you have to prove you are right. You are 1000% wrong and that won't change.

    You're missing the point of what I'm saying. There are nerfs that we refer to. BW, SW, etc. Those are changes to Champs that were in existence. Then there is the term "nerf" that is used. In this case, it refers to toning him down. What I'm saying is the changes they make to Champs before they're released are not nerfs. They make changes to Champs before they release them. I am not arguing what was said. I'm pointing out the difference because the idea of nerfing will inevitably lead to conspiracy discussions.
    Really not trying to inhibit your Thread. I'm clarifying.
    I'm glad you made it out to the convention.
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    TheBaldAvengerTheBaldAvenger Posts: 256 ★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    R4GE wrote: »
    Watch Seatins video. Answer is in it

    Why do I need to watch a video when I was told in person????

    I’d say you already watched it seeing as you posted about it right after Seatin uploaded the video talking about it.
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    UnsaferBinkie7UnsaferBinkie7 Posts: 658 ★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    R4GE wrote: »
    DaMunk wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    Technically, a Champ has to be playable to consider it a nerf. Otherwise it's revisions to the design before the release.

    Technically even when you're wrong you're right is what you're saying. JHC

    I'm making a distinction. When a Champ is still being finalized, according to the intended outcome, and it hasn't been released yet, that's not a nerf. It's still being designed. A nerf is a major change to a Champ that exists. If their intentions for a Champ change, that's still revising. It's an important disticntion to make because this is a window into the process of making a Champ, and not a nerf to a Champ that is already playable. While the information was shared, it was not the same as implying they nerfed him. He wasn't even released yet.

    Nerf = downgrade or make changes to in order to weaken, or whatever term you want to come up with. You're changing the meaning of nerf and that it can't even be used for something until its released.

    There is a difference because that is not the same as nerfs that are commonly referred to here. When a Champ is still being finalized, that's a part of their design process. It's not a nerf. I'm making the distinction because the term was used loosely, and inevitably Nerf Posts will follow. The reality is, many changes are made in the design phase. Which is why they rarely talk about them. Questions about their processes follow.

    Just stop, Kabam said nerf. It was nerfed. You are wrong no matter what you respond with so why keep responding on the subject. Kabam even said he was nerfed to my face therefore no matter what your opinion is it is wrong as the creators themself said nerf. So not sure why you have to prove you are right. You are 1000% wrong and that won't change.

    You're missing the point of what I'm saying. There are nerfs that we refer to. BW, SW, etc. Those are changes to Champs that were in existence. Then there is the term "nerf" that is used. In this case, it refers to toning him down. What I'm saying is the changes they make to Champs before they're released are not nerfs. They make changes to Champs before they release them. I am not arguing what was said. I'm pointing out the difference because the idea of nerfing will inevitably lead to conspiracy discussions.
    Really not trying to inhibit your Thread. I'm clarifying.
    I'm glad you made it out to the convention.

    He wants to be a kabam employee so God Damn bad lol
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,334 ★★★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    R4GE wrote: »
    DaMunk wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    Technically, a Champ has to be playable to consider it a nerf. Otherwise it's revisions to the design before the release.

    Technically even when you're wrong you're right is what you're saying. JHC

    I'm making a distinction. When a Champ is still being finalized, according to the intended outcome, and it hasn't been released yet, that's not a nerf. It's still being designed. A nerf is a major change to a Champ that exists. If their intentions for a Champ change, that's still revising. It's an important disticntion to make because this is a window into the process of making a Champ, and not a nerf to a Champ that is already playable. While the information was shared, it was not the same as implying they nerfed him. He wasn't even released yet.

    Nerf = downgrade or make changes to in order to weaken, or whatever term you want to come up with. You're changing the meaning of nerf and that it can't even be used for something until its released.

    There is a difference because that is not the same as nerfs that are commonly referred to here. When a Champ is still being finalized, that's a part of their design process. It's not a nerf. I'm making the distinction because the term was used loosely, and inevitably Nerf Posts will follow. The reality is, many changes are made in the design phase. Which is why they rarely talk about them. Questions about their processes follow.

    Just stop, Kabam said nerf. It was nerfed. You are wrong no matter what you respond with so why keep responding on the subject. Kabam even said he was nerfed to my face therefore no matter what your opinion is it is wrong as the creators themself said nerf. So not sure why you have to prove you are right. You are 1000% wrong and that won't change.

    You're missing the point of what I'm saying.

    Because there isn't one. Semantics arguments are only made as a deliberate attempt to derail a conversation. We understand the distinction you are making, you are just wrong. Not in a "IMO" type of wrong, just wrong.

    Sorry you disagree. We can move on.
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    Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    R4GE wrote: »
    Watch Seatins video. Answer is in it

    Why do I need to watch a video when I was told in person????

    I’d say you already watched it seeing as you posted about it right after Seatin uploaded the video talking about it.

    I was at the event and asked the question to a developer there. I'm sure lots of people asked about carnage. I didn't even know there was a video up yet.
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    SungjSungj Posts: 2,113 ★★★★★
    @R4GE @Draco2199 Technically @GroundedWisdom is right, by definition, a nerf has to either change the game in a way that it reduces the power of a champion or reduce the power of an existing champion. Since Carnage was not an existing champion in the game nor part of the game at all when his changes were made by definition he was not nerfed he was merely changed during the design process. Yes, Kabam said nerf and that's fine they just chose a term that wasn't completely correct it's like the person who created GIFs pronouncing it with a soft g when linguistically it would be a hard g, just because a higher up said something it doesn't change the rules of accepted language
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    UnsaferBinkie7UnsaferBinkie7 Posts: 658 ★★
    When he's caught in his bs, he runs away. Typical groundedwisdom behavior.
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    Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    Sungj wrote: »
    @R4GE @Draco2199 Technically @GroundedWisdom is right, by definition, a nerf has to either change the game in a way that it reduces the power of a champion or reduce the power of an existing champion. Since Carnage was not an existing champion in the game nor part of the game at all when his changes were made by definition he was not nerfed he was merely changed during the design process. Yes, Kabam said nerf and that's fine they just chose a term that wasn't completely correct it's like the person who created GIFs pronouncing it with a soft g when linguistically it would be a hard g, just because a higher up said something it doesn't change the rules of accepted language

    Stop derailing the thread, stay on topic or it will be flagged.
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    TheBaldAvengerTheBaldAvenger Posts: 256 ★★

    Credit to Seatin for actually asking the developers these questions whilst he was there and giving us the answers
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    Dexman1349Dexman1349 Posts: 3,060 ★★★★★
    At the heart of the matter is the fact that we (as the player base) have a champ that isn't good at all. We had built up our own expectations (probably to un-realistic levels) and anything short of being some Iceman/AA/GP/SW hybrid God, Carnage was never going to live up to what we wanted.

    Yes, Kabam has admitted that he was originally designed to be stronger but then decided to reduce those abilities. Call it whatever you want, at the end of the day the champ we got wasn't what we hoped he would be. I am encouraged that the developers have indicated they are working to improve him, but as we've seen with other "fixes" in the game, any change will likely take some time and probably cause more problems than it solves.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,930 Guardian
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    After attending NYCC event I learned that Carnage was super overpowered before his release. He was then nerfed the week before.....why was he nerfed soo badly though? Could've gotten a little tweak but instead he's nearly worthless in my opinion....so Why such an extreme nerf from OP to Not useful?

    This happens all the time, unfortunately, because of a number of factors. Short answer: time pressure plus mathematical illiteracy, combined with the overwhelming fear not to over shoot a champion.

    When the MMO City of Heroes was in pre-release beta test, one of the damage mitgation powersets was playtested to be incredibly strong relative to the others, specifically the defensive (i.e. don't get hit) Super Reflexes powerset. Literally one week before release and with no real testing the devs cut the numbers for that set in half.

    For very mathy reasons that would have been obvious to mathy people, but apparently not to the devs, cutting the numbers in half actually made the set literally worthless on release. I don't mean like it went from really strong to really weak and now players didn't want it. I mean its actual effective damage mitigation capability was reduced to almost zero.

    Sticking with the superhero theme, when Champions Online was in final beta many defensive abilities were playtested to be much stronger than the devs apparently intended. Again, literally just before release they globally changed all of them in different ways to "fix" the problem. In the process, they broke almost all of them.

    In both cases, literally years of development time and months of testing got obliterated by a last minute panic change. And game developers are *notorious* for not being good with snap changes that are relatively untested. But why always aim so low? Because one of the MMO development commandments is: thou shalt aim low, because thou wilst not get slammed for buffing later, but woe be he that aims high, because the nerf bat brings down all who dare wield it.

    People who like math do not tend to jump into careers in game development. Which is ironic because while much of game implementation is very artsy - graphics, sound design, visual effects, character modeling skeletal animations, etc - the fundamental systems design and entity and abilities design is essentially all math. When you make a building, the architects design the look of the building and the structural engineers make sure it doesn't fall down. Game design has a lot of architects being tasked to be structural engineers.

    But I will cut the game developers one bit of slack. Most players that think they are way better than the game devs. Most aren't. True in every game. This looks way easier than it is. You have to actually do it, and have your work judged by thousands of other people none of whom will necessarily agree with any of your ideas, without a safety net and nowhere to hide if you screw up, before you will know if you are actually any good at it.
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    ReinaReina Posts: 280
    Kabam is going to work on Carnage, the developers really want Carnage to be a good useful character. They are going to tweak him and make him a lot better than he is now. Also he took out ROL Winter Soldier in 80 hits, that’s super OP
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    ReinaReina Posts: 280
    Also how do you do the thing where it says R4GE wrote then what they wrote then you can write on top of that
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    R4GER4GE Posts: 1,530 ★★★★
    edited October 2017
    Romyjart wrote: »
    Also how do you do the thing where it says R4GE wrote then what they wrote then you can write on top of that
    Select "Quote" under my comment
    EDIT: Or whoever you are wanting to quote
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    Viper1987Viper1987 Posts: 728 ★★★
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    When you talked to them, did they explain how he was OP? I mean did he have different abilities? Same abilities just more attack power? What made him OP?
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,930 Guardian
    Viper1987 wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    When you talked to them, did they explain how he was OP? I mean did he have different abilities? Same abilities just more attack power? What made him OP?

    More than one player seems to be relating the same story: the designer said among other things that during testing Carnage was able to defeat RoL Winter Soldier in about 80 hits. That suggested far too much offensive output.

    Given how Carnage appears to be designed to stack up buffs, that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Stark Spidey has a similar albeit possibly more difficult scaling offense: stack up enough charges and he starts to generate huge offensive output. My guess is that not only was Carnage generating too much damage, but he was doing so too easily relative to the extremely long combo meter required for SL or the consistent evasion required from Spark.
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    Viper1987Viper1987 Posts: 728 ★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Viper1987 wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    When you talked to them, did they explain how he was OP? I mean did he have different abilities? Same abilities just more attack power? What made him OP?

    More than one player seems to be relating the same story: the designer said among other things that during testing Carnage was able to defeat RoL Winter Soldier in about 80 hits. That suggested far too much offensive output.

    Given how Carnage appears to be designed to stack up buffs, that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Stark Spidey has a similar albeit possibly more difficult scaling offense: stack up enough charges and he starts to generate huge offensive output. My guess is that not only was Carnage generating too much damage, but he was doing so too easily relative to the extremely long combo meter required for SL or the consistent evasion required from Spark.

    So then it sounds like he was pretty much the same package, only the numbers were most likely tuned a lot higher.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,930 Guardian
    Viper1987 wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Viper1987 wrote: »
    Draco2199 wrote: »
    Changes to a Champ before its release are not nerfs.

    The person I talked to (Kabam developer) specifically said he was nerfed before his launch, and was nerfed too much.

    SO I'M PRETTY SURE NERF is the correct term lol.

    But hey you were there so you know better than me........

    When you talked to them, did they explain how he was OP? I mean did he have different abilities? Same abilities just more attack power? What made him OP?

    More than one player seems to be relating the same story: the designer said among other things that during testing Carnage was able to defeat RoL Winter Soldier in about 80 hits. That suggested far too much offensive output.

    Given how Carnage appears to be designed to stack up buffs, that's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Stark Spidey has a similar albeit possibly more difficult scaling offense: stack up enough charges and he starts to generate huge offensive output. My guess is that not only was Carnage generating too much damage, but he was doing so too easily relative to the extremely long combo meter required for SL or the consistent evasion required from Spark.

    So then it sounds like he was pretty much the same package, only the numbers were most likely tuned a lot higher.

    It wouldn't take much. Suppose we increase the buff cap from five to eight, and suppose the mutation timer didn't exist and activating a special caused the current buff to become permanent on activation. Now spamming heavies and mediums along with special attacks could ramp up your damage to Stark Spidey levels very fast and you could also be doing a lot of bleed with deep wounds.

    Now working backwards, it is plausible that the devs saw that and decided to lower the cap on buffs and add a cooldown timer so you could not build them up that quickly, aka the mutation timer. I'm not saying that happened exactly, but something like that is possible. Relatively small changes on the surface can have a dramatic impact on the performance of a champion. My guess is the mutation timer is the prime suspect in toning down Carnage, and the buff cap number feels like it could have been lowered also.
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    GreenstrokeGreenstroke Posts: 291
    So Carnage could take RoL WS in 80 hits and that is considered OP, but 4* maxed AA does almost the same (100ish hits give or take) thats not OP?
    If carnages power was pre "nerf" from bleeds and heavy attack bleeds i really cant consider hin OP, some cased yes but using like solely heavys to get a bleed going is really qlunky mechanics imo.
    But i have 4* carnage and cosmic awaken so hoping the buff to be good and happening soon :smiley:
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    DeathBringer77DeathBringer77 Posts: 159
    edited October 2017
    Lol. You guys waste this whole thread arguing about nerfed vs changed. Let's concentrate on the real purpose which is carnage used to be awesome (pre-release) and now he sucks donkey balls. Having a 5* r3 duped 68, I hope they do what they've been hinting about doing which is make him useful and not garbage.
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    DaMunkDaMunk Posts: 1,883 ★★★★
    I hope the buff iron patriot first..lol...keep getting that $#!+
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    Darkstar4387Darkstar4387 Posts: 2,145 ★★★
    Well that's disappointing to know that he could have been awesome and was nerfed way to much before released. I don't understand that why they would need him into the ground considering how highly requested he was.

    It also makes me really curious as to how strong he was before than , and really saddened because I actually just pulled him earlier today on my alt and now that I know he could have been great instead of being carbage.
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