While there’s certainly a lot to unpack here, one thing I’m most certainly not a fan of is the rating system, and that’s for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it just seems like a waste of time and resources to do this when it’s something that just isn’t necessary whatsoever. Secondly, while it could certainly be used as a way to help make champs perform better, it could also be used as a metric to tune champs down, which isn’t always a good thing.
Finally, making an in-game rating system could just end up being very misleading to players, especially newer ones who don’t have a lot of knowledge about champs and how they work. They could use this system to plan rank ups, but depending how this system is utilized, it may give an impression that champs often considered lower tier may be just as good as some of the best champs we have.
We will be rating Champions on a few different aspects of their abilities and general strengths and weaknesses.
While we are still hammering down the details, we are currently looking to implement ratings for Damage Output, Survivability, Utility, and Ease of Use.
For example, Hercules is a great Champion with high damage output, but not as much utility, so he would have a 5/5 in Damage, but closer to a 2 or 2.5 for Utility.
I won't be spending on cav crystals going forward. This contradicts what was conveyed to us last time they wanted to "rebalance" champs that going forward they will focus more on testing the champ prior to release and only adjusting for buffs not nerfs.
I'm done chasing the cav crystals as I don't know what I'm buying anymore. I trusted Kabam with their last post but now it's too risky. I've spent thousands on the last couple of champs that I considered to be great additions but if they get nerfed or "rebalanced" so will my disposable income. I've played this game since the beginning and have never been this disinterested in the game. The 2 champ buffs per month was awesome and now we just took 5 steps back to Namor n Cull. No thanks.
It'll be very telling how much they actually know the game when these ratings are put out. Can't wait to see how high some of the garbage champs' ratings are.
Taking a look at the new balancing program, I don’t really know how to feel about this. This is something that was already tried a few years ago, and from what I remember the results and feedback were far from positive. Seeing it come back puts some fear in me seeing as how any new champ that comes out can have something that makes them quite good and useful tuned down 6 months later for the sake of “balance”. There is a positive aspect, as we often see new champs come out that could do with some additional tweaks to make them relevant. However, it’s hard to deny the negative potential that the return of this program brings, especially at the cost of potentially slowing down the current program, which has been a pretty good success for the most part.
We should not be testing your champs in the live server. Don’t you have a team dedicated to doing this? I dont want to get a champion, invest my time and resources into it and it gets nerfed.
Testing the champ for Playstyle and general usefullness and strategies and stuff. Not for bugs
So they don’t have a team that does testing before they release the champ? Maybe because I work in Development in a Chemical lab I see things differently. Before a product is sent out to a customer there is a series of extensive testing that produces data and we can see what needs to be fixed. Kabam wants to sell the product before testing is done.
Nobody can test a champ for every possible Playstyle in every content in game. That's just near impossible for only the dev team to do.
This example is a tad bit different from testing chemicals. I'm sure there is a very specific purpose you make chemicals for and they are to be used that way only(correct me ) but champions are only given a set of kit with a broad application. It's upto the players to use them in ways even the dev team couldn't find out considering the huge scale and variety in the game
We should not be testing your champs in the live server. Don’t you have a team dedicated to doing this? I dont want to get a champion, invest my time and resources into it and it gets nerfed.
Testing the champ for Playstyle and general usefullness and strategies and stuff. Not for bugs
So they don’t have a team that does testing before they release the champ? Maybe because I work in Development in a Chemical lab I see things differently. Before a product is sent out to a customer there is a series of extensive testing that produces data and we can see what needs to be fixed. Kabam wants to sell the product before testing is done.
Again , you can only fix bugs. There is no bug to be fixed(well there are, but that's not the point)
Sooo... Kabam needed a new CEO for this... rebalancing! Seems like history forgotten... umm... version 12. However ya do it, treat the player right and generously fair. I've worked and spent to be happy with my roster. I don't want my efforts to feel worthless. Review the pain of v12 and don't make another v12
We should not be testing your champs in the live server. Don’t you have a team dedicated to doing this? I dont want to get a champion, invest my time and resources into it and it gets nerfed.
Testing the champ for Playstyle and general usefullness and strategies and stuff. Not for bugs
So they don’t have a team that does testing before they release the champ? Maybe because I work in Development in a Chemical lab I see things differently. Before a product is sent out to a customer there is a series of extensive testing that produces data and we can see what needs to be fixed. Kabam wants to sell the product before testing is done.
How many of your products have an awakened ability? Different abilities on SP1, 2 and 3? How many of them place defbuffs? How many of them are played on 100's of different devices and dozens of versions of OS's?
There are so many things on your road map you have failed to do, that people have been waiting for. Maybe instead of taking away the features we actually like (champion buffs), and adding in something nobody asked for (ratings), while also returning to a system the community is vehemently opposed to (nerfing champs after you sell them), you could actually work on adding the features you promised in the road maps of days passed.
Let's see the "totally revamped" AW (we don't even have working AW of the old system)
Let's see the "Wish crystal" (which seems like just something you flat out lied about pursuing to placate people)
Let's see this recognition that sig stones being hard to come by was a problem expanded to 6 stars 2 years out and get some more in the game so we can sig up champs we like and not just our top prestige options.
Let's see you actually release something that works for a change.
Let's continue to see the buffs you over-promised and fell woefully short on.
Once you get those basics down, you can start adding "fluff" like this that nobody gives a hoot about.
I don’t actually consider this to be ‘fluff’. This rating system is something that should have been on a huge spreadsheet on the wall at Kabam HQ when they’re designing and rebalancing champions. I’m surprised it hasn’t existed since 2016/7 when champions started getting more nuanced abilities and play styles. I’m truly baffled that in 2022, seven years into the game, this isn’t just a champion bible that the staff can casually look at: ‘Oh Herc has XYZ, so we won’t give him A as well, that’d be too much’, or ‘Ebony Maw has ABC, but could also do with D to bring him up to the right standard’. To me this is basic building block stuff, not a hey look how innovative we are we’ve come up with this fancy tool.
So from that perspective I see this as a huge positive and am just going to have to overlook how it wasn’t here from day 1.
I do however agree that there’s so many points that really do need work.
I'm hesitant to put this out there but think it should be another point to consider. At the risk of being Captain Obvious, at the end of the day, the MAIN purpose of champs in this game is to make money - it is a business after all right? When Kabam talk about "original intent" of a champ, that can and does mean all kinds of things but primarily, intent revolves around usefulness for AW defense and offense as that is where the majority of champs abilities are vetted as useful for the game - either on defense or offense and in some rare cases, both. After that, it's the champs ability to help you complete evergreen content (this includes old champ buffs too but more on that later) both old and new. Some champs hit the mark(s), others don't and need tuning to either bring them up for their intent (Ebony Maw not getting enough deaths on defense for example) and others tuned down as their crushing content too easily. I think anyone playing this game for any length of time these are obvious statements.
As for the old champ buffs... These were also ultimately designed to net new money. How you ask? By getting current casual players able to rank up these champs (offers anyone?) to finish content they've put off due to lacking rosters and to help newer players "catch up" by getting through older evergreen content easier (but still investing in the champs and items to clear the content). At some point, the data most be showing it isn't netting the outcomes Kabam were hoping it would and hence, the slow down. Again, clearly making a business decision based on value to cost ratios - nothing mysterious here. I'm sure there's more to flush out here but that's the gist of it.
Now what about those meme-tier champs throughout the history of the game like Groot, Superior Iron Man, etc., you know, the ones that sucked when they came out and still suck?? Are those INTENDED to be that way? We must assume so since they were never tuned after release right? I say yes, they were intended to suck. How else are Kabam supposed to keep us chasing the carrot if ANY champ you pull is useful? I mean, why are close to half the champs in featured crystals meme-tier?? Like, why in the heck are they even in there??? That's right, chase that carrot rabbit! hahaha. It's not diabolical folks, it's just good business. Seriously.
Now for the new rating system. It definitely has some inherent flaws, many of which have been flushed out in the comments already but I will add the following:
1) The 5 categories all have several sub-categories that influence final tally, (i.e, rankings within ranking categories) but won't be considered in the new "stunted" 5 category system. For example:
DAMAGE: How easy or not is it to access this Damage? Is the damage based on some ridiculous rotation that's almost impossible to maintain or is it just keep hitting? Is the damage able to be accessed all the time (hit counter based) or only if the defender isn't immune to something (archangel for example)? And many others.
SURVIVABILITY: Survivability against what? Regen based but only lower than 25% health like HB and others? In end game content that doesn't me jack. Immortality like iHulk but you can only access it under very specific circumstances or like Hercules where it's guaranteed? DETAILS MATTER!
UTILITY: By WHAT criteria is utility being determined? Is power control ranked higher than say, immunities? How many and what immunities count as good utility? Champ can shrug debuffs? Ok, at what %? At what sig level? So on and so forth.
EASE OF USE: Wow. This one is loaded. What is this even based on? Ease of rotation? Ease of maintaining utility or damage or survivability? All the above??
Yes, as said in other posts, this is HUGELY subjective and therefore imho, a non-answer to a question nobody asked. Some of you may already know that every champ designed is designed with a "balance sheet" and always has been. Ya, it's internal to Kabam but it is still the system they have always used so this is no different except that they are now going to SHOW it to us... I think that's useful. That said, the ranking system HAS to have a final tally of 25 for EVERY champ - but even still, for all the reasons above, it's still not going to accomplish what Kabam think it will I think.
Here's a honest and transparent ranking system I think we can all live with (tongue most certainly in cheek!):
Kabam: We intended this champ to rack up deaths in AW defense and as a boss in some new content for 3-6 months until we release a new champ to counter that champ and get everyone to buy those champ crystals. Us: I hate this champ design, he's getting everyone in my alliance killed in AW. Kabam: Mission accomplished.
OR Kabam: We intended this champ to rake in BUTT LOADS of cash from crystals since this champ will get everyone excited as a killer AW attacker and clearing content easily. Us: We LOVE this champ, I'm crushing AW and end game content like MAD!!! Kabam: Nerf.
There are so many things on your road map you have failed to do, that people have been waiting for. Maybe instead of taking away the features we actually like (champion buffs), and adding in something nobody asked for (ratings), while also returning to a system the community is vehemently opposed to (nerfing champs after you sell them), you could actually work on adding the features you promised in the road maps of days passed.
Let's see the "totally revamped" AW (we don't even have working AW of the old system)
Let's see the "Wish crystal" (which seems like just something you flat out lied about pursuing to placate people)
Let's see this recognition that sig stones being hard to come by was a problem expanded to 6 stars 2 years out and get some more in the game so we can sig up champs we like and not just our top prestige options.
Let's see you actually release something that works for a change.
Let's continue to see the buffs you over-promised and fell woefully short on.
Once you get those basics down, you can start adding "fluff" like this that nobody gives a hoot about.
‘Oh Herc has XYZ, so we won’t give him A as well, that’d be too much’, or ‘Ebony Maw has ABC, but could also do with D to bring him up to the right standard’.
Quake has literally 2 things next to its name and she is still one of the most broken OP characters after 5 and half years. That's why Kabam won't release her as a 6*. It will be extremely difficulty to bring up a ranking system, since - as kabam keeps on agreeing with it - with 200+ champs MCOC has become a super complicated game in terms of character usage.
So you guys are going to her back to nerf champs, this will drive more and more players away (that already have), myself one of them, this is too BAD, the game is going downstairs 😞
12.0 2.0? I'm a little sad to see overpowered champions go. Or maybe not we'll have to see. But it does give me hope for content. Hopefully, they can create more fun content with a more consistent champion power level. I don't know.
I'm just glad I finished a lot of the content I wanted to before this update.
Since it’s pointless to offer criticism without solutions, here is one honest, constructive one:
1. OK. You don’t want to do buffs for older characters anymore. But people who are playing the game, grinding and buying things, want buffs to older characters.
Solution: Standardized buff package for characters created in 2014/2015/2016 who have not, repeat NOT EVER, been buffed.
None of the characters who would qualify for this standardized buff package are game changing — again, this would be for characters who have NEVER been buffed.
This standardized package wouldn’t make OG Iron Man or Agent Venom capable of clearing any of the more difficult content in the game. It adds no immunities, it adds no new abilities, it adds no new functionality.
This standardized buff package would simply make these characters, in the hands of skilled players, fun to play — at some point, that has to be the outcome everyone wants for this game
This game has been such a fail for about the last 8 months. Bugged to hell, 7.3 lazy and uninspired, everything new released just broken. Feels like Summer of Pain and the Buff Program are the only good thing to come out of the game in the past 8 months and SOP was delayed for a year.
This just adds insult to injury. I cannot fathom what decision makers at Kabam are thinking. Let’s take the parts of the game that people actually look forward too, and rip it shreds.
@Kabam Miike - There's a lot or nervousness around the potential for champion nerfing after a champ has already been released and made available in paid-for crystals / featured crystals etc.
Kabam has a ready made testing ground where experienced players can go in and beta test them for you BEFORE anyone has spent money / units.
Why isn't the content creator beta being considered as a testing ground to weed out balance issues. If Kabam did that then they've effectively expanded the balance testing team by a factor of 5 minimum. I'm sure they would be willing.
If it's done it two rounds, one under embargo and then without embargo as the release date gets close, the content they create will build the hype around the champs and show them off in a state that is unlikely to need the drastic nerfs players are afraid of.
For characters from 2014/2015/2016 who have not, repeat NOT, received a buff: Take two synergies from other characters that were used to increase DPS and defensive ability — one from each category — and add to the base kit of the character.
For example: OG Iron Man has a synergy with Stark Spider-Man that increases his Special Damage. Take that synergy off Stark Spider-Man and add it to OG Iron Man’s base kit.
Done. No more buffs scheduled for OG Iron Man, ever. But at least SOMETHING was done for the base kit
If we want to go solution focused mode. The reason we don’t have Quake as a 6* is because she’s to OP.
So instead of buffing champions, Kabam should take all the champions that fall into the 3 lowest categories in Seatin’s old Tier list (or a community voted equivalent) and take them out of the 6* and 5* pools. Kabam should then reimburse all of the shards used to open these champions so we can then use them to pull champions who are actually worthy of being 5 and 6* champions.
So it works both ways, if you’re not gonna put champions into the 6* pool because they are too powerful then all the rubbish ones should be taken out so we don’t waste all our efforts pulling champs that that absolutely suck and have no hope of being buffed.
And for the record: Synergies are not an answer. They never were! Most players don’t get a sniff of newer characters with a useful synergy for an older one for months to years, if they get that them at all
I would rather Synergies be ended and those things added to older characters base kits
Comments
Finally, making an in-game rating system could just end up being very misleading to players, especially newer ones who don’t have a lot of knowledge about champs and how they work. They could use this system to plan rank ups, but depending how this system is utilized, it may give an impression that champs often considered lower tier may be just as good as some of the best champs we have.
I'm done chasing the cav crystals as I don't know what I'm buying anymore. I trusted Kabam with their last post but now it's too risky. I've spent thousands on the last couple of champs that I considered to be great additions but if they get nerfed or "rebalanced" so will my disposable income. I've played this game since the beginning and have never been this disinterested in the game. The 2 champ buffs per month was awesome and now we just took 5 steps back to Namor n Cull. No thanks.
This example is a tad bit different from testing chemicals. I'm sure there is a very specific purpose you make chemicals for and they are to be used that way only(correct me ) but champions are only given a set of kit with a broad application. It's upto the players to use them in ways even the dev team couldn't find out considering the huge scale and variety in the game
So from that perspective I see this as a huge positive and am just going to have to overlook how it wasn’t here from day 1.
I do however agree that there’s so many points that really do need work.
I think anyone playing this game for any length of time these are obvious statements.
As for the old champ buffs... These were also ultimately designed to net new money. How you ask? By getting current casual players able to rank up these champs (offers anyone?) to finish content they've put off due to lacking rosters and to help newer players "catch up" by getting through older evergreen content easier (but still investing in the champs and items to clear the content). At some point, the data most be showing it isn't netting the outcomes Kabam were hoping it would and hence, the slow down. Again, clearly making a business decision based on value to cost ratios - nothing mysterious here. I'm sure there's more to flush out here but that's the gist of it.
Now what about those meme-tier champs throughout the history of the game like Groot, Superior Iron Man, etc., you know, the ones that sucked when they came out and still suck?? Are those INTENDED to be that way? We must assume so since they were never tuned after release right? I say yes, they were intended to suck. How else are Kabam supposed to keep us chasing the carrot if ANY champ you pull is useful? I mean, why are close to half the champs in featured crystals meme-tier?? Like, why in the heck are they even in there??? That's right, chase that carrot rabbit! hahaha. It's not diabolical folks, it's just good business. Seriously.
Now for the new rating system. It definitely has some inherent flaws, many of which have been flushed out in the comments already but I will add the following:
1) The 5 categories all have several sub-categories that influence final tally, (i.e, rankings within ranking categories) but won't be considered in the new "stunted" 5 category system. For example:
DAMAGE: How easy or not is it to access this Damage? Is the damage based on some ridiculous rotation that's almost impossible to maintain or is it just keep hitting? Is the damage able to be accessed all the time (hit counter based) or only if the defender isn't immune to something (archangel for example)? And many others.
SURVIVABILITY: Survivability against what? Regen based but only lower than 25% health like HB and others? In end game content that doesn't me jack. Immortality like iHulk but you can only access it under very specific circumstances or like Hercules where it's guaranteed? DETAILS MATTER!
UTILITY: By WHAT criteria is utility being determined? Is power control ranked higher than say, immunities? How many and what immunities count as good utility? Champ can shrug debuffs? Ok, at what %? At what sig level? So on and so forth.
EASE OF USE: Wow. This one is loaded. What is this even based on? Ease of rotation? Ease of maintaining utility or damage or survivability? All the above??
Yes, as said in other posts, this is HUGELY subjective and therefore imho, a non-answer to a question nobody asked. Some of you may already know that every champ designed is designed with a "balance sheet" and always has been.
Ya, it's internal to Kabam but it is still the system they have always used so this is no different except that they are now going to SHOW it to us... I think that's useful. That said, the ranking system HAS to have a final tally of 25 for EVERY champ - but even still, for all the reasons above, it's still not going to accomplish what Kabam think it will I think.
Here's a honest and transparent ranking system I think we can all live with (tongue most certainly in cheek!):
Kabam: We intended this champ to rack up deaths in AW defense and as a boss in some new content for 3-6 months until we release a new champ to counter that champ and get everyone to buy those champ crystals.
Us: I hate this champ design, he's getting everyone in my alliance killed in AW.
Kabam: Mission accomplished.
OR
Kabam: We intended this champ to rake in BUTT LOADS of cash from crystals since this champ will get everyone excited as a killer AW attacker and clearing content easily.
Us: We LOVE this champ, I'm crushing AW and end game content like MAD!!!
Kabam: Nerf.
Thoughts??? lololol
It will be extremely difficulty to bring up a ranking system, since - as kabam keeps on agreeing with it - with 200+ champs MCOC has become a super complicated game in terms of character usage.
I'm just glad I finished a lot of the content I wanted to before this update.
1. OK. You don’t want to do buffs for older characters anymore. But people who are playing the game, grinding and buying things, want buffs to older characters.
Solution: Standardized buff package for characters created in 2014/2015/2016 who have not, repeat NOT EVER, been buffed.
The standardized buff package: 17.5 percent basic/heavy attack boost, 17.5 percent Special attack boost, 6 percent Critical Rating boost, 3.5 percent critical damage boost, +5 percent Energy Resistance, +5 percent Physical Resistance, + 2.5 percent Armor Rating, 25 percent debuff/buff duration.
None of the characters who would qualify for this standardized buff package are game changing — again, this would be for characters who have NEVER been buffed.
This standardized package wouldn’t make OG Iron Man or Agent Venom capable of clearing any of the more difficult content in the game. It adds no immunities, it adds no new abilities, it adds no new functionality.
This standardized buff package would simply make these characters, in the hands of skilled players, fun to play — at some point, that has to be the outcome everyone wants for this game
This just adds insult to injury. I cannot fathom what decision makers at Kabam are thinking. Let’s take the parts of the game that people actually look forward too, and rip it shreds.
Kabam has a ready made testing ground where experienced players can go in and beta test them for you BEFORE anyone has spent money / units.
Why isn't the content creator beta being considered as a testing ground to weed out balance issues. If Kabam did that then they've effectively expanded the balance testing team by a factor of 5 minimum. I'm sure they would be willing.
If it's done it two rounds, one under embargo and then without embargo as the release date gets close, the content they create will build the hype around the champs and show them off in a state that is unlikely to need the drastic nerfs players are afraid of.
For characters from 2014/2015/2016 who have not, repeat NOT, received a buff: Take two synergies from other characters that were used to increase DPS and defensive ability — one from each category — and add to the base kit of the character.
For example: OG Iron Man has a synergy with Stark Spider-Man that increases his Special Damage. Take that synergy off Stark Spider-Man and add it to OG Iron Man’s base kit.
Done. No more buffs scheduled for OG Iron Man, ever. But at least SOMETHING was done for the base kit
So instead of buffing champions, Kabam should take all the champions that fall into the 3 lowest categories in Seatin’s old Tier list (or a community voted equivalent) and take them out of the 6* and 5* pools. Kabam should then reimburse all of the shards used to open these champions so we can then use them to pull champions who are actually worthy of being 5 and 6* champions.
So it works both ways, if you’re not gonna put champions into the 6* pool because they are too powerful then all the rubbish ones should be taken out so we don’t waste all our efforts pulling champs that that absolutely suck and have no hope of being buffed.
I would rather Synergies be ended and those things added to older characters base kits