The wording of when MM kept TA never changed from his original release to after he was buffed. All that changed in the description is the amount of mass needed to lose it. The way it worked in game changed which is why plenty of us have been saying this would be fixed for over a year now.
I get people not liking the change but you genuinely don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to being mad about it. People complain pro player bugs get fixed immediately and now are complaining they left this one in game for too long... come on.
Should the communication have been better? Absolutely. Most people know what to expect as far as communication at this point though so if they aren't taking upon themselves to actually read and understand things, well that's on them.
Personally, I knew they would fix him back eventually. But why? They accidentally made a community favorite, super effective, not broken champ. I wish that while he was bugged the community said “hey man, I really hope they keep his abilities!” Instead we all were saying “Kabam would never do something pro player like that, he’ll get fixed.” It’s just a bummer
Also sorry for making those quotes sound like Korg said them
That's why I ranked and used him because under 10 charges when activating Frenzy, he kept True Accuracy.
I waited a LONG time before ranking to ensure it wasn't a "bug" and after reading his abilities, it shouldn't be an issue keeping it the way it has worked for over a year now after his buff.
This is ridiculous if this change happens like this. It makes him useless a lot of the time and makes me not want him ranked. Better options and this change isn't needed as it doesn't make him overpowered.
Everyone said day 1 of his buff that it was a bug. Waiting for a long time doesn't change that. Also moleman is far from useless lmao. He's easily still a top 3 skill imo
@sleimon You're delusional if you think he's better than Nick Fury, Shang Chi, Falcon, KP, Black Cat, Hit Monkey, Masacre, or even Aegon. I honestly never ranked my 6* Moleman because I knew he'd get fixed eventually but calling him a top 3 skill after this nerf is just straight up crazy. He loses all of his utility in exchange for damage, now. This makes him redundant in war where you need both in order to do a majority of fights.
I don’t know if I’d still call him top 3, I agree that Shang and Fury are better than MM, but the rest I have to disagree with
The way the wording is reminds me of the Carina Challenges problems in how everyone was interpreting them (and, or, and/or, only) and this with the use of "and". It could have all been avoided (IMO) with one simple line added under the frenzy description part that states something like,
"Upon activation of frenzy Moleman loses true accuracy but regains it when frenzy expires and remains below 10 Monster mass."
Never has it been stated that activation of frenzy while below 10 monster mass would make Moleman lose true accuracy to my knowledge. Bug or not, intentional or not, the communication (lack of) was poorly executed when the community asked for clarifications. I only agree that RDTs should be provided for people that took him to r4 as those resources are very valuable and in short supply.
Love MoleGod.. and he will still be good.. but this definitely hurts him, and I don't think he was "broken", just a top champ... I've seen them decide to change the TEXT of a champ when they decided that modifying the champ to align with the text would make them too good (i.e. the bug fix would benefit the player). They could have done the same here and simply accepted he works well as he is, and changed his text to align with how he was working.
This would have been a much better solution, but we all know they don't like to do things for their players, only for their pockets.
That's why I ranked and used him because under 10 charges when activating Frenzy, he kept True Accuracy.
I waited a LONG time before ranking to ensure it wasn't a "bug" and after reading his abilities, it shouldn't be an issue keeping it the way it has worked for over a year now after his buff.
This is ridiculous if this change happens like this. It makes him useless a lot of the time and makes me not want him ranked. Better options and this change isn't needed as it doesn't make him overpowered.
Everyone said day 1 of his buff that it was a bug. Waiting for a long time doesn't change that. Also moleman is far from useless lmao. He's easily still a top 3 skill imo
@sleimon You're delusional if you think he's better than Nick Fury, Shang Chi, Falcon, KP, Black Cat, Hit Monkey, Masacre, or even Aegon. I honestly never ranked my 6* Moleman because I knew he'd get fixed eventually but calling him a top 3 skill after this nerf is just straight up crazy. He loses all of his utility in exchange for damage, now. This makes him redundant in war where you need both in order to do a majority of fights.
I don’t know if I’d still call him top 3, I agree that Shang and Fury are better than MM, but the rest I have to disagree with
King Chin is almost certainly better with this fix, especially now that his overpower buffs will stack properly.
I pulled moleman from the compensation nexus. Was planning to r3 with eop rewards. Guess I will have to wait for the update, test and see if he is still worth r3.
I just want to add another voice to the fray saying that this change sucks. The arguments are largely laid out here for why, so I’m not going to retread them. But I do hope Kabam makes the right, player-friendly decision and pulls this change from this update or reverts it in the next update. This is awful.
In my opinion it makes him more difficult to play, since you have to pay much more attention to his MM and should you accidentally block an attack when at 6 charges there goes your true accuracy. You also basically can’t use his specials. Sp2 while out of frenzy isn’t really impressive and if you use 3 or if you run recoil tree 2 sp1 you’re already at 6 MM and can’t let a block occur. I never really thought about this, since he was working the way he’s working, but after the fix they might as well remove the true accuracy as well, since I’d much rather use other champs now to counter fights I’d normally utilize his ability for.
I’ve loved this game since very shortly after they made it and this champion has been one of if not the most favorite I have, due to the broken game play this change will effect me majorly. I have him as a r5 5* and r3 6* and use them both in war, I didn’t know it was a big and no I didn’t read it I just used him and he worked the way he was and ranked him according to that. I have been leaning towards quitting for some time now due to the input problems and with my favorite champ getting fixed (nerfed) it very well may be time.
If a new player comes in, reads the description of Moleman, and also plays Moleman, why is everyone just assuming that they should know that Moleman is bugged and the description is correct? Are we suggesting that the descriptions are infallible, because we know that's not true.
Look at the updates. Even this update also includes an update to Nightcrawlers SP3 description, and Archangels description on poison during blocked hits.
V33.3 includes this - Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last
I strongly believe that it is incorrect to just assume players would know it's a bug with gameplay and not description. They may understand that the Champion does not work the way the description reads, but it's impossible to know what was intended from only what's currently in the game.
@GinjabredMonsta do you think it's ok that Kabam leave a bug unannounced for a year and 4 months, allow some to believe he is functioning in the game normally?
It's not like this was a secret, the community has asked or discussed the bug hundreds of times on the forum. Kabam had every opportunity to drop by and confirm it was a bug.
The description is mostly clear. I was pretty sure it was a bug, lots of others were too, but not everyone. If you just look at the amount of descriptions Kabam include in game that don't quite accurately represent what happens, like Surging Vengeance for example. Or like the way increased ability accuracy interacts with Apoc's shrug off counter, or Angela's debuff reduction interacts with increased debuff duration. Or hell, the update this month "Nightcrawler: Removed the mention of “Disorient” in the Special 3 description". Or here "Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last" or here "Fixed description of ”A Present For You: Villain” node to indicate 200% instead of 2%" "Doctor Doom informed Dragon Man that he cannot borrow his SP1 Description". And that's only since January...
Kabam gets descriptions wrong all the time. Kabam also have many vague descriptions in the game left to fix. How are we supposed to know which are vague and work properly, or which are bugs, when Kabam leave it for a year and 4 months without commenting on it? Why is it up to us to confirm and spread awareness that Moleman is bugged and be careful if you rank him?
"The opponent uses specials in consecutive order from 1-3, restarting after SP3" This is surging vengeance. Now, we know because we've played it, that this means if they get pushed past SP2 before using SP1 then they hold to SP3 and use it immediately. The AI won't just go to SP3 and stay there because it's out of order. But why? That isn't explained in the description. Consecutive is 1, 2, 3. If you cut out 1 and 2, they can't use 3. It is logical to assume that the AI would either 1) use their Sp2 without their SP1 or 2) not use their SP3 at all because it's not following the order. In fact, the function of this node is entirely illogical because it has it both ways. The AI won't use it's SP2 because it's out of order, but it uses it's SP3 even though it is out of order. It is a bad and vague description.
"While Frenzy is not active and Moleman is below 10 Monster mass, his heightened senses allow him to predict opponent movements granting him True Accuracy". This is the only line in his abilities pertaining to True Accuracy (TA). Taken alone, this is pretty cut and dry. If Frenzy is not active, or Moleman is above 10 MM, he won't get TA. However, take this with the above context that 1) this has never been confirmed as a bug by Kabam 2) it's been over 1 year and 4 months of business as usual and 3) Kabam have a history of vague descriptions, it is entirely logical to assume that maybe there's a mistake here.
And yeah, I feel personally that I knew it was a bug. But I'm one of the more active members here, I interact a lot with the forum, Mods and other members of the community on Line and on the forums. We are the minority and in this case not representative of the wider community. Most people don't keep a close eye on the goings on of the game. Some may dip in and dip out, see that Kabam haven't said anything about the moleman bug and carry on. Some may not visit the forum, and assume that after a year and 4 months of business as normal that implies a level of "everything is ok here". It is a bug, and it should be fixed, but that doesn't address what the right thing to do is.
Usually, I don't think bugs warrant RDTs. I don't think there's been a single issue that has needed RDTs in the last 5 years except Hood buff 1.0 off the top of my head. But with what I've explained above, with the amount of time gone where the bug is here, the lack of communication from kabam having never confirmed it was a buff and leaving us to wonder if everything is ok, and the fact that many descriptions are iffy in the game - I think it's a pretty clear case for RDTs. Had one or two of those factors been different, maybe I'd think alternatively, but they aren't.
And after all of this, just think about the scale of the impact if Kabam did decide to do a pro player move in this scenario. A bug that seems to be accepted and left alone leads people to invest valuable resources into champions, maybe a $100 awakening gem, maybe a 15k unit champion selector. Maybe their first R4 champion ever. That champion's utility is all but removed. How does it negatively harm the game if Kabam issue moleman specific RDTs? If they caveat this with the statement that "this is an incredibly rare and unique situation and do not expect RDTs for any other bugs in the future being fixed, it's only due to the circumstances we find ourselves in." What is the harm? And why would this be anything other than the right thing to do, and make players happy, enjoy the game more and be more likely to play, spend and engage. Not to mention the wonders it would do for trust in Kabam.
What do you think the downsides and the upsides are to either granting or denying RDTs here?
If a new player comes in, reads the description of Moleman, and also plays Moleman, why is everyone just assuming that they should know that Moleman is bugged and the description is correct? Are we suggesting that the descriptions are infallible, because we know that's not true.
Look at the updates. Even this update also includes an update to Nightcrawlers SP3 description, and Archangels description on poison during blocked hits.
V33.3 includes this - Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last
I strongly believe that it is incorrect to just assume players would know it's a bug with gameplay and not description. They may understand that the Champion does not work the way the description reads, but it's impossible to know what was intended from only what's currently in the game.
@IKON we had the same thought at the same time it seems! Great minds think alike
If a new player comes in, reads the description of Moleman, and also plays Moleman, why is everyone just assuming that they should know that Moleman is bugged and the description is correct? Are we suggesting that the descriptions are infallible, because we know that's not true.
Look at the updates. Even this update also includes an update to Nightcrawlers SP3 description, and Archangels description on poison during blocked hits.
V33.3 includes this - Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last
I strongly believe that it is incorrect to just assume players would know it's a bug with gameplay and not description. They may understand that the Champion does not work the way the description reads, but it's impossible to know what was intended from only what's currently in the game.
@IKON we had the same thought at the same time it seems! Great minds think alike
Ha ha, that was wonderful, you put in quite a bit more work than I did though.
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
The Moleman Nerf is ridiculous after the amount of time that has passed. The justification for Kabam to send out rank down tickets is already justified. The state of the game is broken and I would say the time or motivation to play this game anymore is on fumes.
Reading these forums to stay informed is also ridiculous at this point. The IOUs to address the game issues to include Moleman’s kit not performing as designed well over a year says a lot.
For the R4 and R3 Moleman holders - or a beginner with a R5 - should absolutely be offered rank down tickets. It’s embarrassing in my opinion. Where was the urgency to fix this over a year ago? @Kabam Miike come on man - curious to hear if this was something done without the consideration of you and the team on the potential impact to players who opted to invest in a known problem the development team failed to address timely. 365 days is a long time. It was longer than that to see the first published fix from Kabam.
Look forward to hear back from someone at Kabam. #RANKDOWNTICKETS
I don't see a need for this nerf, it's nowhere near the Ghost, Quake and Hercules that are broken champions. I used 140 characteristic stones on it, I also had the Nick Fury dup as an option for the R4 era, but I chose the Mole Man.
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
I'm sure.
Descriptions get fixed monthly, you say. How many months ago was moleman reworked? Wonder how that flew under the radar for so long despite having been mentioned repeatedly by players. Maybe the issue wasn't with the ability description? Just throwing out a possibility.
Champion description is what a champion is advertised as, and is what players first see, assuming they actually take the time to read abilities, and therefore is what should be assumed as correct, rather than picking and choosing whichever side happens to be most convenient to you. If an ability description is incorrect, it usually does get fixed quickly after having been discovered, and I'd imagine is also infinitely easier to fix than the alternative, so they really had no reason to hold off for that long if the issue really was ability text.
This is really just a repeat of the Doom/Wasp vs stun immunity bugfix. Now, try to remember how many rank-down tickets were handed out then, and that'll give you a good idea of how many will be given out this time around.
Also, the whole "omg I ranked up a champion just for this ONE ability and it's gone now!!1!!111!!1" argument is hilariously bad. People said the same thing about Doom and Wasp, and they're still used just the same, with absolutely no difference. Either way though, this goes back to what I initially said. Having intentionally ranked up a champion for an ability that you know is bugged only means the fault falls on you when the bug gets fixed and you no longer have access to it.
I knew this was a bug. Every time I read these threads, and I've read a few over the last year, I was like, yeah it's a bug, but he's useful like this, so I'll rank him. I took my 6* to R3 and use him a fair bit. I was accepting of the potential he could get changed at some point.
But...after a while, I kinda forgot about the whole thing, especially as I play a lot less nowadays. To the point where I was openly musing to ally mates that he was a dark horse contender for my first R4. Then I saw a vid from KT mentioning this change and it all came back.
I don't need a RDT and R3 prolly doesn't in general. But I agree with other posters that a R4->R3 would be a good gesture.
@GinjabredMonsta do you think it's ok that Kabam leave a bug unannounced for a year and 4 months, allow some to believe he is functioning in the game normally?
It's not like this was a secret, the community has asked or discussed the bug hundreds of times on the forum. Kabam had every opportunity to drop by and confirm it was a bug.
The description is mostly clear. I was pretty sure it was a bug, lots of others were too, but not everyone. If you just look at the amount of descriptions Kabam include in game that don't quite accurately represent what happens, like Surging Vengeance for example. Or like the way increased ability accuracy interacts with Apoc's shrug off counter, or Angela's debuff reduction interacts with increased debuff duration. Or hell, the update this month "Nightcrawler: Removed the mention of “Disorient” in the Special 3 description". Or here "Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last" or here "Fixed description of ”A Present For You: Villain” node to indicate 200% instead of 2%" "Doctor Doom informed Dragon Man that he cannot borrow his SP1 Description". And that's only since January...
Kabam gets descriptions wrong all the time. Kabam also have many vague descriptions in the game left to fix. How are we supposed to know which are vague and work properly, or which are bugs, when Kabam leave it for a year and 4 months without commenting on it? Why is it up to us to confirm and spread awareness that Moleman is bugged and be careful if you rank him?
"The opponent uses specials in consecutive order from 1-3, restarting after SP3" This is surging vengeance. Now, we know because we've played it, that this means if they get pushed past SP2 before using SP1 then they hold to SP3 and use it immediately. The AI won't just go to SP3 and stay there because it's out of order. But why? That isn't explained in the description. Consecutive is 1, 2, 3. If you cut out 1 and 2, they can't use 3. It is logical to assume that the AI would either 1) use their Sp2 without their SP1 or 2) not use their SP3 at all because it's not following the order. In fact, the function of this node is entirely illogical because it has it both ways. The AI won't use it's SP2 because it's out of order, but it uses it's SP3 even though it is out of order. It is a bad and vague description.
"While Frenzy is not active and Moleman is below 10 Monster mass, his heightened senses allow him to predict opponent movements granting him True Accuracy". This is the only line in his abilities pertaining to True Accuracy (TA). Taken alone, this is pretty cut and dry. If Frenzy is not active, or Moleman is above 10 MM, he won't get TA. However, take this with the above context that 1) this has never been confirmed as a bug by Kabam 2) it's been over 1 year and 4 months of business as usual and 3) Kabam have a history of vague descriptions, it is entirely logical to assume that maybe there's a mistake here.
And yeah, I feel personally that I knew it was a bug. But I'm one of the more active members here, I interact a lot with the forum, Mods and other members of the community on Line and on the forums. We are the minority and in this case not representative of the wider community. Most people don't keep a close eye on the goings on of the game. Some may dip in and dip out, see that Kabam haven't said anything about the moleman bug and carry on. Some may not visit the forum, and assume that after a year and 4 months of business as normal that implies a level of "everything is ok here". It is a bug, and it should be fixed, but that doesn't address what the right thing to do is.
Usually, I don't think bugs warrant RDTs. I don't think there's been a single issue that has needed RDTs in the last 5 years except Hood buff 1.0 off the top of my head. But with what I've explained above, with the amount of time gone where the bug is here, the lack of communication from kabam having never confirmed it was a buff and leaving us to wonder if everything is ok, and the fact that many descriptions are iffy in the game - I think it's a pretty clear case for RDTs. Had one or two of those factors been different, maybe I'd think alternatively, but they aren't.
And after all of this, just think about the scale of the impact if Kabam did decide to do a pro player move in this scenario. A bug that seems to be accepted and left alone leads people to invest valuable resources into champions, maybe a $100 awakening gem, maybe a 15k unit champion selector. Maybe their first R4 champion ever. That champion's utility is all but removed. How does it negatively harm the game if Kabam issue moleman specific RDTs? If they caveat this with the statement that "this is an incredibly rare and unique situation and do not expect RDTs for any other bugs in the future being fixed, it's only due to the circumstances we find ourselves in." What is the harm? And why would this be anything other than the right thing to do, and make players happy, enjoy the game more and be more likely to play, spend and engage. Not to mention the wonders it would do for trust in Kabam.
What do you think the downsides and the upsides are to either granting or denying RDTs here?
@BitterSteel Sorry for the delay in response, wanted to read it fully and was also trying to find a post that would have been a point in both of our sides. However the post I can not find and for all I know it is a case of mandala effect or multiverse.
I'll start by saying I in no ways support kabams communication, or rather lack there of and have been pretty vocal about it including here. I'm pretty active on the forum and while I may not interact with a lot or any of the users outside of the forum, I still like to be apart of the community and voice for them as well as kabam when the situation seems fit.
I remember a post where a mod commented acknowledging it being a bug but also saying they weren't touching it for now. I can't find this but this would be a point in the direction towards communication, but also would be a point in the lack of communication and vague responses and wording.
I agree that kabam has a track record of having terrible wording or causing bugs due to wording. It's nothing new and there are plenty of nodes like the one you mentioned where they need to fix the wording and make the nodes intentions clear 100%. There are also items that people read and then try to read between the imagined lined in order to make it work for them or support how it works for them.
I never used moleman the bugged way. Not because I didn't want to but more or less I didn't go with that playstyle so for me personally, the wording was correct. His utiltybis also not being fully taken away,he still can counter evades, but the dmg aspect of his has been crippled now i will agree. This has been talked about amongst the players though for awhile and started picking up again back in February. It is fair to argue for the newer players and for the people that don't come to the forum, but this has been discusses many times amongst the player base and even in the game in global.
I will also say that until today, I had no idea that kabam never fully acknowledged it besides the post I can not find. The questions regarding it have been unanswered and even a question about it had the post of the title edited by a mod but still no confirmation. So I agree, it's crappy and it left a lot to speculation for people and left the community in the situation we are in now.
I assumed that kabam has mentioned it once more at least than the time I remember, and that to me was one of the bigger reasons that I am against RDT. I also think that RDT, while maybe appropriate in situations, has also set a bad president in general. Since I was wrong about kabam having acknowledged it before, I have no real argument that would justify not RDTs besides personal reasons. The last time they handed out RDTs they said thay it was also a one time thing and that it would only happen for specific circumstances. So players may get that specific RDT. L
TLDR: after looking for evidence, I can't support my argument anymore other than for personal reasons of disliking RDTs and you've quite frankly got me in a box.
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
I'm sure.
Descriptions get fixed monthly, you say. How many months ago was moleman reworked? Wonder how that flew under the radar for so long despite having been mentioned repeatedly by players. Maybe the issue wasn't with the ability description? Just throwing out a possibility.
Champion description is what a champion is advertised as, and is what players first see, assuming they actually take the time to read abilities, and therefore is what should be assumed as correct, rather than picking and choosing whichever side happens to be most convenient to you. If an ability description is incorrect, it usually does get fixed quickly after having been discovered, and I'd imagine is also infinitely easier to fix than the alternative, so they really had no reason to hold off for that long if the issue really was ability text.
This is really just a repeat of the Doom/Wasp vs stun immunity bugfix. Now, try to remember how many rank-down tickets were handed out then, and that'll give you a good idea of how many will be given out this time around.
Right, so no pointing to where Kabam said it was a bug.
And your explanation of why we should take descriptions as accurate is “Kabam usually fix it”. Surging vengeance has been in the game for years. Night crawler’s sp3 description has been changed today after 5 years. So that explanation doesn’t hold. How come that hasn’t been fixed?
So I’ll ask again:
When did Kabam confirm it was a bug?
And why should we assume all descriptions are accurate when some get changed after 5 years, and some aren’t changed at all, while Kabam haven’t addressed Moleman’s bug ever?
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.
Yeah, right here:
Champion ability description is what a champion is advertised as, and should be assumed as correct, especially when it's remained unchanged for well over a year. You don't just pick and choose what you want to be correct based on what's most convenient for you.
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
I'm sure.
They get fixed monthly, you say? How many months ago was moleman's description last updated? Wonder how that went under the radar for so long.
Also, the whole "omg I ranked up a champion for this ONE ability and it's gone now!!11!!1!!!!!11!!11" argument is hilariously bad. People cried the same about Doom and Wasp and yet they're still used just as much and are just as good as they've always been. Either way though, this goes back to what I initially said. If you're intentionally ranking up a champion solely for the purpose of abusing what you clearly know is a bug, the fault only falls on you when that ends up getting fixed.
EDIT: first post broke or something. Anyways, yeah.
@GinjabredMonsta do you think it's ok that Kabam leave a bug unannounced for a year and 4 months, allow some to believe he is functioning in the game normally?
It's not like this was a secret, the community has asked or discussed the bug hundreds of times on the forum. Kabam had every opportunity to drop by and confirm it was a bug.
The description is mostly clear. I was pretty sure it was a bug, lots of others were too, but not everyone. If you just look at the amount of descriptions Kabam include in game that don't quite accurately represent what happens, like Surging Vengeance for example. Or like the way increased ability accuracy interacts with Apoc's shrug off counter, or Angela's debuff reduction interacts with increased debuff duration. Or hell, the update this month "Nightcrawler: Removed the mention of “Disorient” in the Special 3 description". Or here "Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last" or here "Fixed description of ”A Present For You: Villain” node to indicate 200% instead of 2%" "Doctor Doom informed Dragon Man that he cannot borrow his SP1 Description". And that's only since January...
Kabam gets descriptions wrong all the time. Kabam also have many vague descriptions in the game left to fix. How are we supposed to know which are vague and work properly, or which are bugs, when Kabam leave it for a year and 4 months without commenting on it? Why is it up to us to confirm and spread awareness that Moleman is bugged and be careful if you rank him?
"The opponent uses specials in consecutive order from 1-3, restarting after SP3" This is surging vengeance. Now, we know because we've played it, that this means if they get pushed past SP2 before using SP1 then they hold to SP3 and use it immediately. The AI won't just go to SP3 and stay there because it's out of order. But why? That isn't explained in the description. Consecutive is 1, 2, 3. If you cut out 1 and 2, they can't use 3. It is logical to assume that the AI would either 1) use their Sp2 without their SP1 or 2) not use their SP3 at all because it's not following the order. In fact, the function of this node is entirely illogical because it has it both ways. The AI won't use it's SP2 because it's out of order, but it uses it's SP3 even though it is out of order. It is a bad and vague description.
"While Frenzy is not active and Moleman is below 10 Monster mass, his heightened senses allow him to predict opponent movements granting him True Accuracy". This is the only line in his abilities pertaining to True Accuracy (TA). Taken alone, this is pretty cut and dry. If Frenzy is not active, or Moleman is above 10 MM, he won't get TA. However, take this with the above context that 1) this has never been confirmed as a bug by Kabam 2) it's been over 1 year and 4 months of business as usual and 3) Kabam have a history of vague descriptions, it is entirely logical to assume that maybe there's a mistake here.
And yeah, I feel personally that I knew it was a bug. But I'm one of the more active members here, I interact a lot with the forum, Mods and other members of the community on Line and on the forums. We are the minority and in this case not representative of the wider community. Most people don't keep a close eye on the goings on of the game. Some may dip in and dip out, see that Kabam haven't said anything about the moleman bug and carry on. Some may not visit the forum, and assume that after a year and 4 months of business as normal that implies a level of "everything is ok here". It is a bug, and it should be fixed, but that doesn't address what the right thing to do is.
Usually, I don't think bugs warrant RDTs. I don't think there's been a single issue that has needed RDTs in the last 5 years except Hood buff 1.0 off the top of my head. But with what I've explained above, with the amount of time gone where the bug is here, the lack of communication from kabam having never confirmed it was a buff and leaving us to wonder if everything is ok, and the fact that many descriptions are iffy in the game - I think it's a pretty clear case for RDTs. Had one or two of those factors been different, maybe I'd think alternatively, but they aren't.
And after all of this, just think about the scale of the impact if Kabam did decide to do a pro player move in this scenario. A bug that seems to be accepted and left alone leads people to invest valuable resources into champions, maybe a $100 awakening gem, maybe a 15k unit champion selector. Maybe their first R4 champion ever. That champion's utility is all but removed. How does it negatively harm the game if Kabam issue moleman specific RDTs? If they caveat this with the statement that "this is an incredibly rare and unique situation and do not expect RDTs for any other bugs in the future being fixed, it's only due to the circumstances we find ourselves in." What is the harm? And why would this be anything other than the right thing to do, and make players happy, enjoy the game more and be more likely to play, spend and engage. Not to mention the wonders it would do for trust in Kabam.
What do you think the downsides and the upsides are to either granting or denying RDTs here?
@BitterSteel Sorry for the delay in response, wanted to read it fully and was also trying to find a post that would have been a point in both of our sides. However the post I can not find and for all I know it is a case of mandala effect or multiverse.
I'll start by saying I in no ways support kabams communication, or rather lack there of and have been pretty vocal about it including here. I'm pretty active on the forum and while I may not interact with a lot or any of the users outside of the forum, I still like to be apart of the community and voice for them as well as kabam when the situation seems fit.
I remember a post where a mod commented acknowledging it being a bug but also saying they weren't touching it for now. I can't find this but this would be a point in the direction towards communication, but also would be a point in the lack of communication and vague responses and wording.
I agree that kabam has a track record of having terrible wording or causing bugs due to wording. It's nothing new and there are plenty of nodes like the one you mentioned where they need to fix the wording and make the nodes intentions clear 100%. There are also items that people read and then try to read between the imagined lined in order to make it work for them or support how it works for them.
I never used moleman the bugged way. Not because I didn't want to but more or less I didn't go with that playstyle so for me personally, the wording was correct. His utiltybis also not being fully taken away,he still can counter evades, but the dmg aspect of his has been crippled now i will agree. This has been talked about amongst the players though for awhile and started picking up again back in February. It is fair to argue for the newer players and for the people that don't come to the forum, but this has been discusses many times amongst the player base and even in the game in global.
I will also say that until today, I had no idea that kabam never fully acknowledged it besides the post I can not find. The questions regarding it have been unanswered and even a question about it had the post of the title edited by a mod but still no confirmation. So I agree, it's crappy and it left a lot to speculation for people and left the community in the situation we are in now.
I assumed that kabam has mentioned it once more at least than the time I remember, and that to me was one of the bigger reasons that I am against RDT. I also think that RDT, while maybe appropriate in situations, has also set a bad president in general. Since I was wrong about kabam having acknowledged it before, I have no real argument that would justify not RDTs besides personal reasons. The last time they handed out RDTs they said thay it was also a one time thing and that it would only happen for specific circumstances. So players may get that specific RDT. L
TLDR: after looking for evidence, I can't support my argument anymore other than for personal reasons of disliking RDTs and you've quite frankly got me in a box.
This isn’t how forum debates are supposed to go! We aren’t supposed to graciously discuss it and… change our minds!
More seriously though, thanks for taking on board what was said and really thinking it through I appreciate that a lot!
I’m pretty close to where you are to be honest, I hate the idea of RDTs, it’s why I haven’t asked for them once aside from Hood I think. I just feel Kabam have put themselves in a box for where RDTs are necessary.
If it hadn’t gone unanswered, I wouldn’t be saying RDTs is the right call. And if anyone can prove me wrong there feel free! I’m always happy to change my mind.
The Moleman Nerf is ridiculous after the amount of time that has passed. The justification for Kabam to send out rank down tickets is already justified. The state of the game is broken and I would say the time or motivation to play this game anymore is on fumes.
Reading these forums to stay informed is also ridiculous at this point. The IOUs to address the game issues to include Moleman’s kit not performing as designed well over a year says a lot.
For the R4 and R3 Moleman holders - or a beginner with a R5 - should absolutely be offered rank down tickets. It’s embarrassing in my opinion. Where was the urgency to fix this over a year ago? @Kabam Miike come on man - curious to hear if this was something done without the consideration of you and the team on the potential impact to players who opted to invest in a known problem the development team failed to address timely. 365 days is a long time. It was longer than that to see the first published fix from Kabam.
Look forward to hear back from someone at Kabam. #RANKDOWNTICKETS
Comments
Also sorry for making those quotes sound like Korg said them
The way the wording is reminds me of the Carina Challenges problems in how everyone was interpreting them (and, or, and/or, only) and this with the use of "and". It could have all been avoided (IMO) with one simple line added under the frenzy description part that states something like,
"Upon activation of frenzy Moleman loses true accuracy but regains it when frenzy expires and remains below 10 Monster mass."
Never has it been stated that activation of frenzy while below 10 monster mass would make Moleman lose true accuracy to my knowledge.
Bug or not, intentional or not, the communication (lack of) was poorly executed when the community asked for clarifications. I only agree that RDTs should be provided for people that took him to r4 as those resources are very valuable and in short supply.
This would have been a much better solution, but we all know they don't like to do things for their players, only for their pockets.
Look at the updates. Even this update also includes an update to Nightcrawlers SP3 description, and Archangels description on poison during blocked hits.
V33.3 includes this - Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last
I strongly believe that it is incorrect to just assume players would know it's a bug with gameplay and not description. They may understand that the Champion does not work the way the description reads, but it's impossible to know what was intended from only what's currently in the game.
It's not like this was a secret, the community has asked or discussed the bug hundreds of times on the forum. Kabam had every opportunity to drop by and confirm it was a bug.
The description is mostly clear. I was pretty sure it was a bug, lots of others were too, but not everyone. If you just look at the amount of descriptions Kabam include in game that don't quite accurately represent what happens, like Surging Vengeance for example. Or like the way increased ability accuracy interacts with Apoc's shrug off counter, or Angela's debuff reduction interacts with increased debuff duration. Or hell, the update this month "Nightcrawler: Removed the mention of “Disorient” in the Special 3 description". Or here "Fixed error in Joe Fixit’s description where it stated he gained a Card on the first hit of a combo instead of the last" or here "Fixed description of ”A Present For You: Villain” node to indicate 200% instead of 2%" "Doctor Doom informed Dragon Man that he cannot borrow his SP1 Description". And that's only since January...
Kabam gets descriptions wrong all the time. Kabam also have many vague descriptions in the game left to fix. How are we supposed to know which are vague and work properly, or which are bugs, when Kabam leave it for a year and 4 months without commenting on it? Why is it up to us to confirm and spread awareness that Moleman is bugged and be careful if you rank him?
"The opponent uses specials in consecutive order from 1-3, restarting after SP3" This is surging vengeance.
Now, we know because we've played it, that this means if they get pushed past SP2 before using SP1 then they hold to SP3 and use it immediately. The AI won't just go to SP3 and stay there because it's out of order. But why? That isn't explained in the description. Consecutive is 1, 2, 3. If you cut out 1 and 2, they can't use 3. It is logical to assume that the AI would either 1) use their Sp2 without their SP1 or 2) not use their SP3 at all because it's not following the order. In fact, the function of this node is entirely illogical because it has it both ways. The AI won't use it's SP2 because it's out of order, but it uses it's SP3 even though it is out of order. It is a bad and vague description.
"While Frenzy is not active and Moleman is below 10 Monster mass, his heightened senses allow him to predict opponent movements granting him True Accuracy".
This is the only line in his abilities pertaining to True Accuracy (TA). Taken alone, this is pretty cut and dry. If Frenzy is not active, or Moleman is above 10 MM, he won't get TA. However, take this with the above context that 1) this has never been confirmed as a bug by Kabam 2) it's been over 1 year and 4 months of business as usual and 3) Kabam have a history of vague descriptions, it is entirely logical to assume that maybe there's a mistake here.
And yeah, I feel personally that I knew it was a bug. But I'm one of the more active members here, I interact a lot with the forum, Mods and other members of the community on Line and on the forums. We are the minority and in this case not representative of the wider community. Most people don't keep a close eye on the goings on of the game. Some may dip in and dip out, see that Kabam haven't said anything about the moleman bug and carry on. Some may not visit the forum, and assume that after a year and 4 months of business as normal that implies a level of "everything is ok here". It is a bug, and it should be fixed, but that doesn't address what the right thing to do is.
Usually, I don't think bugs warrant RDTs. I don't think there's been a single issue that has needed RDTs in the last 5 years except Hood buff 1.0 off the top of my head. But with what I've explained above, with the amount of time gone where the bug is here, the lack of communication from kabam having never confirmed it was a buff and leaving us to wonder if everything is ok, and the fact that many descriptions are iffy in the game - I think it's a pretty clear case for RDTs. Had one or two of those factors been different, maybe I'd think alternatively, but they aren't.
And after all of this, just think about the scale of the impact if Kabam did decide to do a pro player move in this scenario. A bug that seems to be accepted and left alone leads people to invest valuable resources into champions, maybe a $100 awakening gem, maybe a 15k unit champion selector. Maybe their first R4 champion ever. That champion's utility is all but removed. How does it negatively harm the game if Kabam issue moleman specific RDTs? If they caveat this with the statement that "this is an incredibly rare and unique situation and do not expect RDTs for any other bugs in the future being fixed, it's only due to the circumstances we find ourselves in." What is the harm? And why would this be anything other than the right thing to do, and make players happy, enjoy the game more and be more likely to play, spend and engage. Not to mention the wonders it would do for trust in Kabam.
What do you think the downsides and the upsides are to either granting or denying RDTs here?
Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
I'm sure.
Reading these forums to stay informed is also ridiculous at this point. The IOUs to address the game issues to include Moleman’s kit not performing as designed well over a year says a lot.
For the R4 and R3 Moleman holders - or a beginner with a R5 - should absolutely be offered rank down tickets. It’s embarrassing in my opinion. Where was the urgency to fix this over a year ago? @Kabam Miike come on man - curious to hear if this was something done without the consideration of you and the team on the potential impact to players who opted to invest in a known problem the development team failed to address timely. 365 days is a long time. It was longer than that to see the first published fix from Kabam.
Look forward to hear back from someone at Kabam. #RANKDOWNTICKETS
I don't see a need for this nerf, it's nowhere near the Ghost, Quake and Hercules that are broken champions.
I used 140 characteristic stones on it, I also had the Nick Fury dup as an option for the R4 era, but I chose the Mole Man.
My 6* R4, Apocalypse went up yesterday to R4.
Champion description is what a champion is advertised as, and is what players first see, assuming they actually take the time to read abilities, and therefore is what should be assumed as correct, rather than picking and choosing whichever side happens to be most convenient to you. If an ability description is incorrect, it usually does get fixed quickly after having been discovered, and I'd imagine is also infinitely easier to fix than the alternative, so they really had no reason to hold off for that long if the issue really was ability text.
This is really just a repeat of the Doom/Wasp vs stun immunity bugfix. Now, try to remember how many rank-down tickets were handed out then, and that'll give you a good idea of how many will be given out this time around.
Also, the whole "omg I ranked up a champion just for this ONE ability and it's gone now!!1!!111!!1" argument is hilariously bad. People said the same thing about Doom and Wasp, and they're still used just the same, with absolutely no difference. Either way though, this goes back to what I initially said. Having intentionally ranked up a champion for an ability that you know is bugged only means the fault falls on you when the bug gets fixed and you no longer have access to it.
But...after a while, I kinda forgot about the whole thing, especially as I play a lot less nowadays. To the point where I was openly musing to ally mates that he was a dark horse contender for my first R4. Then I saw a vid from KT mentioning this change and it all came back.
I don't need a RDT and R3 prolly doesn't in general. But I agree with other posters that a R4->R3 would be a good gesture.
I'll start by saying I in no ways support kabams communication, or rather lack there of and have been pretty vocal about it including here. I'm pretty active on the forum and while I may not interact with a lot or any of the users outside of the forum, I still like to be apart of the community and voice for them as well as kabam when the situation seems fit.
I remember a post where a mod commented acknowledging it being a bug but also saying they weren't touching it for now. I can't find this but this would be a point in the direction towards communication, but also would be a point in the lack of communication and vague responses and wording.
I agree that kabam has a track record of having terrible wording or causing bugs due to wording. It's nothing new and there are plenty of nodes like the one you mentioned where they need to fix the wording and make the nodes intentions clear 100%. There are also items that people read and then try to read between the imagined lined in order to make it work for them or support how it works for them.
I never used moleman the bugged way. Not because I didn't want to but more or less I didn't go with that playstyle so for me personally, the wording was correct. His utiltybis also not being fully taken away,he still can counter evades, but the dmg aspect of his has been crippled now i will agree. This has been talked about amongst the players though for awhile and started picking up again back in February. It is fair to argue for the newer players and for the people that don't come to the forum, but this has been discusses many times amongst the player base and even in the game in global.
I will also say that until today, I had no idea that kabam never fully acknowledged it besides the post I can not find. The questions regarding it have been unanswered and even a question about it had the post of the title edited by a mod but still no confirmation. So I agree, it's crappy and it left a lot to speculation for people and left the community in the situation we are in now.
I assumed that kabam has mentioned it once more at least than the time I remember, and that to me was one of the bigger reasons that I am against RDT. I also think that RDT, while maybe appropriate in situations, has also set a bad president in general. Since I was wrong about kabam having acknowledged it before, I have no real argument that would justify not RDTs besides personal reasons. The last time they handed out RDTs they said thay it was also a one time thing and that it would only happen for specific circumstances. So players may get that specific RDT. L
TLDR: after looking for evidence, I can't support my argument anymore other than for personal reasons of disliking RDTs and you've quite frankly got me in a box.
And your explanation of why we should take descriptions as accurate is “Kabam usually fix it”. Surging vengeance has been in the game for years. Night crawler’s sp3 description has been changed today after 5 years. So that explanation doesn’t hold. How come that hasn’t been fixed?
So I’ll ask again:
When did Kabam confirm it was a bug?
And why should we assume all descriptions are accurate when some get changed after 5 years, and some aren’t changed at all, while Kabam haven’t addressed Moleman’s bug ever?
Champion ability description is what a champion is advertised as, and should be assumed as correct, especially when it's remained unchanged for well over a year. You don't just pick and choose what you want to be correct based on what's most convenient for you.
. They get fixed monthly, you say? How many months ago was moleman's description last updated? Wonder how that went under the radar for so long.
Also, the whole "omg I ranked up a champion for this ONE ability and it's gone now!!11!!1!!!!!11!!11" argument is hilariously bad. People cried the same about Doom and Wasp and yet they're still used just as much and are just as good as they've always been. Either way though, this goes back to what I initially said. If you're intentionally ranking up a champion solely for the purpose of abusing what you clearly know is a bug, the fault only falls on you when that ends up getting fixed.
EDIT: first post broke or something. Anyways, yeah.
More seriously though, thanks for taking on board what was said and really thinking it through I appreciate that a lot!
I’m pretty close to where you are to be honest, I hate the idea of RDTs, it’s why I haven’t asked for them once aside from Hood I think. I just feel Kabam have put themselves in a box for where RDTs are necessary.
If it hadn’t gone unanswered, I wouldn’t be saying RDTs is the right call. And if anyone can prove me wrong there feel free! I’m always happy to change my mind.
Thanks again!