Knowingly attempt to exploit known bugs and you end up paying the price once said bug is fixed. What a shocker.
I'm sure you'll point me to where Kabam confirmed this was a bug.
Or I'm sure you can explain why we can assume all descriptions are correct when they get fixed monthly because there are mistakes, and because there are nodes that don't act according to their descriptions.
I'm sure.
Descriptions get fixed monthly, you say. How many months ago was moleman reworked? Wonder how that flew under the radar for so long despite having been mentioned repeatedly by players. Maybe the issue wasn't with the ability description? Just throwing out a possibility.
Champion description is what a champion is advertised as, and is what players first see, assuming they actually take the time to read abilities, and therefore is what should be assumed as correct, rather than picking and choosing whichever side happens to be most convenient to you. If an ability description is incorrect, it usually does get fixed quickly after having been discovered, and I'd imagine is also infinitely easier to fix than the alternative, so they really had no reason to hold off for that long if the issue really was ability text.
This is really just a repeat of the Doom/Wasp vs stun immunity bugfix. Now, try to remember how many rank-down tickets were handed out then, and that'll give you a good idea of how many will be given out this time around.
Right, so no pointing to where Kabam said it was a bug.
And your explanation of why we should take descriptions as accurate is “Kabam usually fix it”. Surging vengeance has been in the game for years. Night crawler’s sp3 description has been changed today after 5 years. So that explanation doesn’t hold. How come that hasn’t been fixed?
So I’ll ask again:
When did Kabam confirm it was a bug?
And why should we assume all descriptions are accurate when some get changed after 5 years, and some aren’t changed at all, while Kabam haven’t addressed Moleman’s bug ever?
Surging Vengeance and Nightcrawler are cases of improving clarity, not fixing bugs. Nothing is malfunctioning with either of those abilities, whether in text or gameplay. Moleman's description is very clear and leaves no room for confusion, so there's really no comparison there.
You’re saying that with the hindsight that Kabam confirmed it was a bug.
Before yesterday there was a possibility that Kabam would announce “Moleman’s ability description is being fixed to say “when below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive, this TA stays while in frenzy”. That goes against your reading of the situation, which is fine, but as Kabam never confirmed it either way, you cannot say that it’s clear because there’s a chance it was not right. If it was updated, then it would accurately reflect what happens in game.
Forget for a moment that Moleman’s TA was a bug. What’s the difference between surging vengeance description being fixed to accurately reflect what happens in game, and Moleman’s description being updated to reflect what happens in game?
Again, clarity vs bugfixing. Even if you were correct, Moleman would not be fixed to improve clarity, the ability description would be changed to something completely different. Moleman's description would be misrepresenting how the champion actually functions, whereas Surging Vengeance simply isn't clear enough on specifics.
But again, given that the text was never fixed, and they're now confirming that the text was in fact not the issue, we know that's not the case.
How is it clarity vs bug fixing when I've asked you to assume the Moleman TA wasn't a bug?
Surging vengeance does misrepresent how the node functions. it states "Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3." consecutive means to follow continously, so 2 follows 1, 3 follows 2, it goes 1 then 2, then 3. But the node functions by allowing the AI to go from 1 to 3. That isn't what the node says. Consecutive means it cannot go from 1 straight to 3, because then it isn't consecutive from 1 to 3.
This means you'd have to change the node to something completely different, and if that's ok to do for SV, why not for moleman.
You seem to be drawing distinctions to suit your argument.
Ok, in my hypothetical scenario:
Moleman/Surging Vengeance works correctly in game. Their ability description doesn't reflect what goes on.
Moleman's description goes from: “When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive" to: "When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive, this TA stays while in frenzy”.
Surging Vengeance goes from: "Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3." to: ""Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3. If this opponent gets to SP3 they will use it immediately".
Remember, ignore that we now know MM is bugged. This is in a hypothetical yesterday when we didn't have confirmation it was bugged. If you answer anything about it being bugged I will know you haven't read my post, because as of yesterday we didn't know it was bugged for sure.
Here's my question. Both descriptions misrepresent what happens in game, both would be fixed to accurately show what happens. What is the difference between those two situations?
But Surging Vengeance doesn't misrepresent anything. Using a sp3 after sp1 is still in order. 3 always comes after 1. Again, the only thing that would change with updating SV's text is eliminating confusion as to how the ability functions, because the current text simply isn't clear enough. In your hypothetical, Moleman's text literally states something that the champion does not do. There is no confusion or clarification, it simply is a different ability than stated.
The issue with SV and NC are that their text can easily be misinterpreted. There is literally no way to interpret Moleman's text in a way that his gameplay is correctly represented.
AJLMZ
Is that the alphabet in order?
J always comes after A, M always after L and Z after J. But they're not consecutive are they, because consecutive means following each other continuously. 1 then 3 is not continuous. Nor is AJLMZ.
But they are in alphabetical order. It isn't the entire alphabet, but that wasn't specified, which is precisely the issue with SV; lack of specification. Again, this comes down to interpretation. This isn't the case with Moleman. There is no way to understand "optional" in "While Frenzy is not active".
When frenzy is not active and moleman is under 10 monster mass, he gains TA. Since it doesn’t explicitly state that he loses TA when frenzy activates, I can also interpret this as ‘when frenzy is not active and moleman is under 10 MM, he gains TA. When frenzy is activated, his TA stays active regardless of how many MM he has’ I know that’s not what’s in the game but dont you think people who assumed this as true are not wrong? Since that’s how he functioned in game. It could have very well been an omission in description on the part of kabam since they never said otherwise.
This is the whole point and why there has always been a debate. Those who refuse to acknowledge this are not arguing in good faith. The onus was on Kabam to enter the argument and 100% clarify this once they saw there was confusion especially given MM's actual functionality - they had 16 months to do so and refused. They have now suddenly decided to clarify, not by way of addressing the playerbase, but indirectly by fixing the now-confirmed bug.
As I said before much smaller and bigger bugs have been acknowledged and addressed during this period - this action can only lead me to think some challenge awaits in the near future MM would have cheesed in his current state like a fight in EOP round 2.
You absolutely cannot fix this bug...SO MANY people have ranked up Mole Man cuz of the fact that he can deliver damage and be a reliable evade and auto block counter. The fact of the matter is you ignored this bug for more than a year already, and during this time many people have ranked him up. If this change goes live we deserve Rank Down Tickets.
This makes me very sad. I basically only use him to counter auto block and evade. I will find myself very seldom using him now. I agree we should get RDT. Not cause they are "nerfing" him, but because this has been a known bug for a long time and there has never been talks of correcting it. Now out of nowhere they decide to fix it?! It went on long enough that it should have been safe to assume that it was going to be left alone...
I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.
I'm gunna have to be with the people here. That's great you merged then for clarity, but this is what people talk about regarding lack of communication. At least something like "we see the concerns and are discussing it to give your a proper answer" or something would help a lot and would help to keep the convo civil still.
I know... This is just another message in this thread. And I am not going to complain or cry. However I believe we need to speak up. This is not a nerf, this is a bug fixing, I agree. But still... Mole Man is one of the best of his class, but he's not OP. The fact is that he's perfect as he is now. He has utility and he can be powerful. With this fix he will still be good, but just above the average. I hope Kabam will step back and decide to keep it as is. They always say they listen to us, will they?
Personally I think it should be reversed. This champ is not part of the rebalancing programme. If it was an issue and resolved within 3 months I would have been ok. This has been like this for ages so I think it should be left as is.
Absolutely spot on, best take yet IMO. This breaks with current standards they’ve communicated
As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.
Surely the process is: - Champion designed/tested released - Turns out a missed bug exists - Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion - X months later needs champion needs buffing - Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released. - Turns out new kit = new bug - Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
I have merged the two threads from @MilitaryJane and @Amms90 in order to keep the conversation in one place. Please remember to keep the ongoing discussion civil and constructive.
I'm gunna have to be with the people here. That's great you merged then for clarity, but this is what people talk about regarding lack of communication. At least something like "we see the concerns and are discussing it to give your a proper answer" or something would help a lot and would help to keep the convo civil still.
In contrast, when players post about most bugs, there is at least some type of response (Like 'we'll look into it, post more screenshots'). I mean, it was only a few weeks ago that I saw 3-4+ posts about King Groot's Malice not working correctly, and saw that Kabam posted some type of a response.
As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.
Surely the process is: - Champion designed/tested released - Turns out a missed bug exists - Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion - X months later needs champion needs buffing - Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released. - Turns out new kit = new bug - Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
There’s probably somebody who got their final R4 materials from side quest and EoP, rank 4d Moleman as their first rank 4 and then an hour later found out he was going to be neutered.
If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.
As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.
Surely the process is: - Champion designed/tested released - Turns out a missed bug exists - Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion - X months later needs champion needs buffing - Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released. - Turns out new kit = new bug - Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
There’s probably somebody who got their final R4 materials from side quest and EoP, rank 4d Moleman as their first rank 4 and then an hour later found out he was going to be neutered.
If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.
Agreed, it’s very poor form. I suppose we should be pathetically grateful that this announcement came before 4th July offers and not after, though I dare say that the 95% of the player base who don’t camp here are going to be blissfully unaware.
What I just cannot wrap my head around is how if this was on a ‘to-do list’ and not something that would just be left as is, is the time frame and lack of communication.
Does the forum team pass this feedback back to the game team? It wouldn’t surprise me if a member of the champion designing team just happened across a forum post, or tested a piece of content with Moleman and found out he wasn’t working properly so fixed him.
It just feels like there’s an enormous disconnect not just between the player and Kabam, but within the company itself. I think that they’re extremely lucky that they’ve got an IP as big and as vogue as Marvel to continually attract customers because they could find themselves in very deep water otherwise.
how in the world does this happen Kabam.. 16 months.. SIXTEEN, he has been ''bugged'', why now? after the whole controls input fiasco, with this last months ridiculous state that the game has been in you seem to want to keep throwing fuel into the fire.. does this stuff not get reviewed? does no one at the company have a single foot in the door when it comes to the state of the game/meta in the game? i really would pay to see what goes on when these things are being decided on cause it seems as though no one even bats an eye to second guess some of the decisions that are made.. yeah just through out updates, no tests no warning, let the loyal player base deal with it what a joke
As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.
Surely the process is: - Champion designed/tested released - Turns out a missed bug exists - Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion - X months later needs champion needs buffing - Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released. - Turns out new kit = new bug - Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
There’s probably somebody who got their final R4 materials from side quest and EoP, rank 4d Moleman as their first rank 4 and then an hour later found out he was going to be neutered.
If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.
Agreed, it’s very poor form. I suppose we should be pathetically grateful that this announcement came before 4th July offers and not after, though I dare say that the 95% of the player base who don’t camp here are going to be blissfully unaware.
What I just cannot wrap my head around is how if this was on a ‘to-do list’ and not something that would just be left as is, is the time frame and lack of communication.
Does the forum team pass this feedback back to the game team? It wouldn’t surprise me if a member of the champion designing team just happened across a forum post, or tested a piece of content with Moleman and found out he wasn’t working properly so fixed him.
It just feels like there’s an enormous disconnect not just between the player and Kabam, but within the company itself. I think that they’re extremely lucky that they’ve got an IP as big and as vogue as Marvel to continually attract customers because they could find themselves in very deep water otherwise.
Oh god I hadn’t even thought of that. This was announced less than 24 hours before there will be a 2020 champion selector available for 15,000 units. And Kabam have made a small announcement hidden in patch nodes that a champion who may be sold for $500 tomorrow is going to be neutered (assuming leaks are correct)
There could be someone tomorrow who hasn’t heard the news, they could drop that money and select him. Then next Monday when the update comes he will wonder why Moleman doesn’t get true accuracy in frenzy anymore.
This is getting more ridiculous by the second. If I were Kabam I’d be shouting this from the rooftops right now, in-game mail, forum banner, the whole works. People were 24 hours away from having the opportunity to buy the champion you’re selling for the equivalent of $500 and you add a tiny line in a patch note you absolutely know will not be seen by the vast majority of the game.
This is not an announcement that should have been made this late, and this is not an announcement that should have been made less than 24 hours before July 4th where he is in a champion selector.
They have not only thrown themselves in the deep end, but they’ve tied cinder blocks round their ankles and knocked themselves out. I’m very often on the side of giving kabam slack and not immediately jumping at their throats, but there is no defence here.
Rank down tickets are not enough, what about us used 2020 Champion selector on Cyber Monday 2021 to select Moleman, we could selected Ibom instead, etc.
@Kabam Zibiit and all other mods… it’s quite obvious this has struck a major nerves with the player base. I haven’t seen a topic talked about this much, so fast I’m honestly any recent memory..
Please leave moleman alone and this thread dies, it’s the most rational solution, leave the champ who has been great but not broken as is…. Done. Go back to other stuff that needs help.
Or at the very least give r4->r3 rank downs. R4 is SUPER rare still and in many case very expensive
I’d say moledemigod. He still has great damage, bleeds, purify, and the unstoppable gives an opportunity to create an opening if needed. He is still one of the better evade and autoblock counters, albeit at the cost of damage.
I feel this whole fiasco could've been avoided if at somewhere along the line kabam had informed that moleman is bugged and he is not supposed to keep the true strike like it says in his kit. Every time a thread or someone brings the topic up it's usually the players who tell it and then convos and arguments ensue.
There were threads that were moved to bugs section but that isn't enough. At all. Bugs sections is for reporting what 'might' be a bug. Not a confirmed one. I'm all for fixing moleman and i have a r3 and a r5 and i knew that this might eventually happen so i took the risk and i have nobody to 'blame' but me.
Just hoping that in the future bug threads about champions are met with more enthusiasm to inform . Ziibit does a good job but i guess it's too much to handle for one person?
I've never played with Moleman, don't have a 5 or 6* version of him, but yeah this whole situation is a mess. Like 16 months without a word that they're addressing it and then changing it out of nowhere is an unacceptable form of communication. I don't know much about game design stuff, but I feel like a bug like this isn't very difficult to fix so the fact it took over a year for them to finally release it is just nonsense. I tend not to support rank down tickets for bug fixes, such as the Magneto "nerf" one a few months back, but with that one it was addressed by the Kabam team and fixed in only a few months iirc. This is different, and the fact that the mods have only said "hey we merged threads, be nice", so far shows a complete disregard and lack of attention on a concerning topic. Hopefully they end up doing the right thing.
As Moleman isn’t in the rebalancing program didn’t Kabam say they wouldn’t be changing champions’ mechanics outside of this 3 month timeframe? Personally I don’t really like Moleman’s aesthetic and only recently pulled him so this won’t affect me but there’s a really important principle being violated here in my opinion.
Surely the process is: - Champion designed/tested released - Turns out a missed bug exists - Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion - X months later needs champion needs buffing - Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released. - Turns out new kit = new bug - Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
There’s probably somebody who got their final R4 materials from side quest and EoP, rank 4d Moleman as their first rank 4 and then an hour later found out he was going to be neutered.
If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.
Agreed, it’s very poor form. I suppose we should be pathetically grateful that this announcement came before 4th July offers and not after, though I dare say that the 95% of the player base who don’t camp here are going to be blissfully unaware.
What I just cannot wrap my head around is how if this was on a ‘to-do list’ and not something that would just be left as is, is the time frame and lack of communication.
Does the forum team pass this feedback back to the game team? It wouldn’t surprise me if a member of the champion designing team just happened across a forum post, or tested a piece of content with Moleman and found out he wasn’t working properly so fixed him.
It just feels like there’s an enormous disconnect not just between the player and Kabam, but within the company itself. I think that they’re extremely lucky that they’ve got an IP as big and as vogue as Marvel to continually attract customers because they could find themselves in very deep water otherwise.
Oh god I hadn’t even thought of that. This was announced less than 24 hours before there will be a 2020 champion selector available for 15,000 units. And Kabam have made a small announcement hidden in patch nodes that a champion who may be sold for $500 tomorrow is going to be neutered (assuming leaks are correct)
There could be someone tomorrow who hasn’t heard the news, they could drop that money and select him. Then next Monday when the update comes he will wonder why Moleman doesn’t get true accuracy in frenzy anymore.
This is getting more ridiculous by the second. If I were Kabam I’d be shouting this from the rooftops right now, in-game mail, forum banner, the whole works. People were 24 hours away from having the opportunity to buy the champion you’re selling for the equivalent of $500 and you add a tiny line in a patch note you absolutely know will not be seen by the vast majority of the game.
This is not an announcement that should have been made this late, and this is not an announcement that should have been made less than 24 hours before July 4th where he is in a champion selector.
They have not only thrown themselves in the deep end, but they’ve tied cinder blocks round their ankles and knocked themselves out. I’m very often on the side of giving kabam slack and not immediately jumping at their throats, but there is no defence here.
That is correct - also never thought of that. Whatever the cost of that 2021 selector people are going to go for him from it who are in that (arbitrary) 85% of players who don't read the form daily or watch youtube...
@solopolo when you say "In your hypothetical, Moleman's text literally states something that the champion does not do" I really worry that you're not following what I'm saying. My hypothetical is quite literally the situation where Moleman does do that.
It's like me saying hypothetically lets say my name is bob, and you said "In your hypothetical, your name literally isn't bob".
So please, answer my question that I've been trying to get you to answer for the last 3 posts.
Ok, in my hypothetical scenario:
Moleman/Surging Vengeance works correctly in game. Their ability description doesn't reflect what goes on.
Moleman's description goes from: “When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive" to: "When below 10 MM and not in frenzy MM gains a TA passive, this TA stays while in frenzy”.
Surging Vengeance goes from: "Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3." to: ""Uses Special Attacks in consecutive order from 1 to 3, restarting from the beginning after Special 3. If this opponent gets to SP3 they will use it immediately".
just stick to the hypothetical, where MM isn't bugged, his text doesn't say something he cannot do, because in my hypothetical Moleman is supposed to keep his TA in frenzy. This is important.
What is the difference between those two situations?
The difference is that you've completely changed the way that Moleman's ability functions. You've now created a lingering effect that only checks its condition upon initial activation rather than a continuous one that is only active under the conditions of Frenzy not being active AND Moleman being below 10 Monster Mass, and as a result the line you've added at the end is completely unnecessary because the True Accuracy wouldn't fall off upon activating Frenzy regardless.
Tell me, do you know the point of hypotheticals? I'm presenting a situation to ask about your logic and views on that situation. And when I do, you're acting like you have no idea what a hypothetical is.
With the bob example, it's like I've said "hypothetically lets say my name is bob", and you said "In your hypothetical, you've changed your name to bob! That's not allowed". Yes... that's the point of a hypothetical.
In response to me saying "Imagine Moleman's abilities are like this" and you've said "No you have changed what Moleman's abilities are like". Do you not see how you are missing the point of the hypothetical?
My whole point here, is that if Moleman's ability description was changed and it wasn't a bug you would have no way to explain the difference between that and surging vengeance because there isn't one. Your only differences you've offered are "Moleman is bugged" (my hypothetical states that it's not bugged), "you've added an ability to moleman" (no, my hypothetical is that moleman has that ability) and surging vengeance description accurately portrays what happens in game (no it doesn't, because in the same way you can't answer 1, 5, 76, 77 and 98 as the answer to "name 5 consecutive numbers between 1-100", a champion going from sp1 to sp3 is *not* consecutive)
Either, you don't understand what a hypothetical is, in which case let me know and I can explain it in more detail. Or you do understand, but you're deliberately playing as though you don't in order to disingenuously answer my questions by ignoring the hypothetical because you know that it proves my point.
So I'll give it one last try to attempt for you to actually take part in this debate honestly.
Just for one second, please try and imagine a world where the way that Moleman functions as of yesterday is quite literally the way he is supposed to work with the "lingering effect that only checks its condition upon initial activation rather than a continuous one that is only active under the conditions of Frenzy not being active AND Moleman being below 10 Monster Mass" as you describe. Imagine that is all part of his abilities, but not his description.
So, if Moleman isn't bugged, and if no abilities have been added to him by me or anyone else, and if his description was changed to represent what happens in the game. Why is that not the exact same situation as SV being updated to represent what it does in the game?
Please, try not to answer anything along the lines of "his abilities are changed", "he's bugged" or anything else that clearly betrays your lack of knowledge about hypotheticals or consecutive. Either you're being performatively unaware in order to avoid admitting my point, or you genuinely don't know what these words mean.
All you've managed to accomplish with thes posts is prove that you're in no position to nitpick kabam's wording, and you don't even realize it.
Allow me to break this down for you.
Surging Vengeance's issue is not about nitpicking definitions of any specific word, it's simply that the node doesn't mention what happens once the defender reaches 3 bars of power before using their sp2. It is missing information which results in confusion as to how the ability functions. The only change that needs to happen here is to add said missing information to the node description.
In order to fix Moleman there are 2 potential scenarios.
EITHER they change how the ability functions in order to fit the description, meaning the ability itself was not functioning as intended, and the description is accurate.
OR they alter the wording in order to match how the champion functions in game, meaning the issue was actually with the champion's text.
You've done neither. Instead you threw out both abilities and created an entirely new ability that's even better than both because you don't understand how to properly word an ability.
Regardless, your hypothetical has no place here. You're trying to create an entirely new scenario in which your point still fails to hold any ground and requires you to twist facts even further. Bottom line is, Moleman's issue has nothing to do with clarity like the other abilities you've mentioned so far, and can't be compared to any of them.
Whether Surging Vengeance's issue is an issue of incorrect wording by definition, or simply an oversight by Kabam, it is not at all an issue with the functionality of the node.
EITHER they change how the ability functions in order to fit the description, meaning the ability itself was not functioning as intended, and the description is accurate.
OR they alter the wording in order to match how the champion functions in game, meaning the issue was actually with the champion's text.
So you are admitting that the "bug" could have been with the functionality or that the issue coulda actually been w the champion's text, meaning the functionality coulda been correct.
All this says to me is that it really couldnt be clear to anyone if the champ was working as intended or bugged.
Which is exactly my point, thank you! Felt like I was going mad.
If the description can be changed to what is in game, then it's the same as Surging vengeance. Both are long term issues that haven't been fixed and need more clarity with their description to match what happens in game, and therefore nobody could possibly know if it's a bug or not, whether the description should be changed to fit the game, or the game should be fixed to fit the description.
That means, nobody could possibly know it's a definite bug when they ranked moleman and when you add that to the fact Kabam never told us it was a bug, Moleman's rank ups were all within reason that he was working correctly.
Except for the fact the wording was the same originally when he released as it is now. What changed was how he actually worked. While they may not have said it was a bug, they definitely didn't say that the change in how he worked was intended either. You're basically saying that everyone assumed he was bugged on initial release and that he was fixed when he was buffed. I'm sorry but that just doesn't hold water for me. You're saying it's not unreasonable to assume he's been working correctly bc that's how he's been working ever since his buff. At the same time that would mean people should have assumed he was working correctly originally and since no description was changed but how he worked did, it should have been glaringly obvious he was bugged.
No one has argued the communication wasn't handled horribly. There isn't any legitimate argument for people not realizing he's been bugged this whole time though.
The power to decide whether something is a bug or a feature lies with the developer, not the player. So the player can only make a best bet, but never conclusively declare something as a bug because the dev has freedom to simply say it is not so.
Which they did and are correcting with the next update. What's your point?
Players may not be able to declare something a bug, but they can sure notice them. Plenty of people did immediately. Plenty of other people did and then still chose to invest in him anyway (I have a R3 mole, I couldn't care less if RDT are issued) bc "Kabam would have to give RDT if they fix him anyway". I've had plenty of these conversations over the last year.
People keep saying Kabam didn't communicate this well so they're partially responsible (which is true), but players are also partially responsible for ranking him regardless of how many people tell them he's bugged and not bothering to realize that on their own.
I personally couldn't care less whether they give RDT or not. I definitely don't agree that they're owed to anyone though. People definitely need to get over the fact he's being fixed regardless and the whole "just leave him like he is bc I like him" nonsense is ridiculous. If someone is that bothered by the change, take your RDT if it comes and rank him down. If they don't come, oh well maybe read champ abilities a bit better next time and don't rely on a YouTuber to tell you who to rank.
I know it’s kinda your shtick to be anti-people making mistakes, and be dismissing of people. But not everyone plays this game as seriously as us, focussing on the community and the forums and YouTube as much as we do. You’re really extrapolating from your own experiences and making it fit everyone else.
Just take a step back and realise that there are over 200 champions in the game, descriptions are fixed all the time, and just because something is the same way that it is now as it was years ago doesn’t mean it’s not broken. There are plenty of slightly oddly written descriptions and it is within reason that some players may not know Moleman is bugged. Just look at some of these posts saying “I had no idea Moleman was bugged when I ranked him!” I can find examples if you like. Someone may never have even picked up Moleman before his buff, how are they supposed to know that’s not how he worked?
Should we be expected to research every champion before we play them to learn their entire history and make sure nothing has changed? Or should we be able to expect a standard from Kabam where they confirm bugs, and the lack of a confirmation of a bug for a year and 4 months is something that breeds misinformation and those chickens have come home to roost.
So, unless you’re saying those people are lying, which would be quite the accusation to fit your own narrative without proof, we have to admit that it’s quite a common thing that people did not know that Moleman was bugged.
Take a step back, and realise that the vast majority people don’t spend their time on the forum, they may not be in serious line chats where people bring this up. You say people shouldn’t rely on a YouTuber, there are 310k people subbed to Seatin. As of 2015, the game had more than 40 million downloads. I don’t think most people watch YouTube.
It is absolutely up to Kabam to communicate here. You are in a vacuum where on this forum it is common knowledge or spoke about often that Moleman is bugged. A search proves that. But if YouTube represents a tiny proportion of the player base, the forum represents even less. And if members of the forum can say they never knew Moleman was bugged, what chance does the average player have?
It’s very easy to say “just read it” but many descriptions are wrong and do not match what happens in game. That’s why so many gets fixed. Many descriptions are vague and it is within the realms of possibility that Moleman was missing a line to explain what was happening. It is not on the player to realise that. It is on Kabam to make what happens in their game clear. I know it’s usually your viewpoint to blame players instead with situations like this, but sometimes it’s actually Kabam who have to make it right.
I’m fine if Kabam want to fix the bug after all this time, in fact I think they should, bugs should not stick around just because they’re pro player, I just think their communication sucks and it’s not reasonable for the entire community to figure it out instead when Kabam had literally hundreds of opportunities to confirm it either way and they stayed silent. That silence gives an impression it’s alright, they never said it was a bug, it could easily have been a description error.
I’m not saying, nor have I ever said players are completely blameless. But most of the onus is on kabam to communicate issues and bugs which may affects your rank ups. It is not the players duty to do research, they are playing a game.
And at the end of it all, you come to a situation that we have now and you as a kabam employee have the decision. You have a large proportion of players not knowing he is bugged because they don’t partake in the discussions we do on YouTube forum or Reddit or line, you have silence from your end when it would have taken 5 minutes to write a post one time over the last year and 4 months. Are you really telling me that you wouldn’t do anything to make it right? Even just from a “good relations” point of view, to make people who are (and I don’t know why I have to emphasise this) playing a game happier.
Some players will have ranked him while bugged and thinking it, sure, they would get RDTs as well, there’s no harm in that except your own emotional reaction to it. You don’t want players to get their way here, we know, but it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t. The players who ranked Moleman without knowing he was bugged in good faith, they deserve rank down tickets for assuming things were working correctly in the game.
Basically, step outside your bubble for a second and consider the world outside of forums and YouTube. Step outside and realise that it’s Kabams job to present a working game and communicate the bugs. When they fail, and that leads to people taking Moleman up as their first R4 champion and finding out he’s going to be neutered the next day, they have a responsibility to do something about it.
I actually read through all of this. 😃 I can second your thoughts about the lack of information. Like you point out. Champion descriptions can be somewhat unclear (trade for units later fx) i don’t claim to be endgame or whatever, but i’ve been on daily for 5 years. When i r3’d Ultron i knew there was something about him that was off. I caught that here on the forums. When i pulled Moleman a few months ago i ranked him because i was lacking in the skill class, and i knew he was good after his buff. I never knew there was something about him that wasn’t intended. Despite being active on the forums. Guess that’s on me. 🤷♂️ In my personal opinion i hope they listen to the community, like they did with the Domino/Guardian situation. Moleman isn’t broken by any means, so why not just change the description?
Comments
It's obviously not a game-breaking interaction otherwise it wouldn't have been left bugged for 18 months.
As I said before much smaller and bigger bugs have been acknowledged and addressed during this period - this action can only lead me to think some challenge awaits in the near future MM would have cheesed in his current state like a fight in EOP round 2.
This is not a nerf, this is a bug fixing, I agree. But still... Mole Man is one of the best of his class, but he's not OP. The fact is that he's perfect as he is now. He has utility and he can be powerful. With this fix he will still be good, but just above the average. I hope Kabam will step back and decide to keep it as is. They always say they listen to us, will they?
Surely the process is:
- Champion designed/tested released
- Turns out a missed bug exists
- Bug is fixed ASAP so you can close the chapter on this champion
- X months later needs champion needs buffing
- Champion is buffed, descriptions updated, released.
- Turns out new kit = new bug
- Fix bug ASAP so you can close chapter on this champion.
This is also the sort of thing that should be done before players spend money targeting said champion, before they clear content such as EoP, targeting said champion, or pick them out of a 202X selector. Doing all of this means there’s no recriminations, or at worst oh this buff is a bit underwhelming but at least I didn’t spend 72 hours grinding the arena or sell my eldest son on eBay for Cav crystals to pull the champion.
If you can really tell me that person doesn’t deserve to be able to reinvest their resources after how badly Kabam have dropped the ball on this, you’re being performatively uncaring. This is a game we play and love, and the negative impact of leaving that player with a dud as their only rank 4 after a year of grinding for materials far outweighs the negative of letting them rank down that champion.
What I just cannot wrap my head around is how if this was on a ‘to-do list’ and not something that would just be left as is, is the time frame and lack of communication.
Does the forum team pass this feedback back to the game team? It wouldn’t surprise me if a member of the champion designing team just happened across a forum post, or tested a piece of content with Moleman and found out he wasn’t working properly so fixed him.
It just feels like there’s an enormous disconnect not just between the player and Kabam, but within the company itself. I think that they’re extremely lucky that they’ve got an IP as big and as vogue as Marvel to continually attract customers because they could find themselves in very deep water otherwise.
does this stuff not get reviewed? does no one at the company have a single foot in the door when it comes to the state of the game/meta in the game? i really would pay to see what goes on when these things are being decided on cause it seems as though no one even bats an eye to second guess some of the decisions that are made.. yeah just through out updates, no tests no warning, let the loyal player base deal with it
what a joke
There could be someone tomorrow who hasn’t heard the news, they could drop that money and select him. Then next Monday when the update comes he will wonder why Moleman doesn’t get true accuracy in frenzy anymore.
This is getting more ridiculous by the second. If I were Kabam I’d be shouting this from the rooftops right now, in-game mail, forum banner, the whole works. People were 24 hours away from having the opportunity to buy the champion you’re selling for the equivalent of $500 and you add a tiny line in a patch note you absolutely know will not be seen by the vast majority of the game.
This is not an announcement that should have been made this late, and this is not an announcement that should have been made less than 24 hours before July 4th where he is in a champion selector.
They have not only thrown themselves in the deep end, but they’ve tied cinder blocks round their ankles and knocked themselves out. I’m very often on the side of giving kabam slack and not immediately jumping at their throats, but there is no defence here.
Please leave moleman alone and this thread dies, it’s the most rational solution, leave the champ who has been great but not broken as is…. Done. Go back to other stuff that needs help.
Or at the very least give r4->r3 rank downs. R4 is SUPER rare still and in many case very expensive
There were threads that were moved to bugs section but that isn't enough. At all. Bugs sections is for reporting what 'might' be a bug. Not a confirmed one. I'm all for fixing moleman and i have a r3 and a r5 and i knew that this might eventually happen so i took the risk and i have nobody to 'blame' but me.
Just hoping that in the future bug threads about champions are met with more enthusiasm to inform . Ziibit does a good job but i guess it's too much to handle for one person?
I can second your thoughts about the lack of information. Like you point out. Champion descriptions can be somewhat unclear (trade for units later fx) i don’t claim to be endgame or whatever, but i’ve been on daily for 5 years. When i r3’d Ultron i knew there was something about him that was off. I caught that here on the forums. When i pulled Moleman a few months ago i ranked him because i was lacking in the skill class, and i knew he was good after his buff. I never knew there was something about him that wasn’t intended. Despite being active on the forums.
Guess that’s on me. 🤷♂️
In my personal opinion i hope they listen to the community, like they did with the Domino/Guardian situation. Moleman isn’t broken by any means, so why not just change the description?