BG question to Paragons

Chatterofforums · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
Yes, but you're a person with the experience of a 4M Account, playing with an 800k. It's not the same for people who are genuinely at that point.

Dude has 4 million account stuck in gold and of course this is what you focus on. I've faced several players in GC who still have multiple 4 stars among their top champs for BG and have achieved way higher rewards than a 4 million account who is getting shafted from a ridiculous matchmaking system that lets weaker rosters get much better rewards than those with far superior rosters.

How can you continue to defend such a broken matchmaking system?

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

I'm not defending anything. I'm clarifying that there's a huge difference between what's "easy" for someone with a lower Account, and what's "easy" for someone who is a seasoned Player with an Alt. That fact seems to be omitted quite often when people more advanced pass the judgment that others are getting easy Rewards. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy to the argument when people are complaining they're not getting ahead when coming up against larger Accounts in their own Matches, and asserting people are getting ahead because their Matches aren't as hard. The whole judgment lacks perspective.

Chatterofforums · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
I'm not defending anything. I'm clarifying that there's a huge difference between what's "easy" for someone with a lower Account, and what's "easy" for someone who is a seasoned Player with an Alt. That fact seems to be omitted quite often when people more advanced pass the judgment that others are getting easy Rewards. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy to the argument when people are complaining they're not getting ahead when coming up against larger Accounts in their own Matches, and asserting people are getting ahead because their Matches aren't as hard. The whole judgment lacks perspective.

Your saying your clarifying the difference as if you have any clue what kind of matches paragons and top.players are getting.

You can NOT speak on something you haven't experienced as your lil account is no where close to getting anything close to the matchups his 4 million account is getting so why do you keep insisting to act as if you do?

Greekhit · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
I'm not defending anything. I'm clarifying that there's a huge difference between what's "easy" for someone with a lower Account, and what's "easy" for someone who is a seasoned Player with an Alt. That fact seems to be omitted quite often when people more advanced pass the judgment that others are getting easy Rewards. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy to the argument when people are complaining they're not getting ahead when coming up against larger Accounts in their own Matches, and asserting people are getting ahead because their Matches aren't as hard. The whole judgment lacks perspective.

I don’t think you have understand what Prestige matchmaking does exactly.
Small accounts by-pass competition as it is.
Whether you, or me, or anyone else, likes or not, this is what’s happening. It’s a fact. It’s not debatable.
And as an outcome of this, a high percentage of small accounts (if not all, in case of UC and Cav accounts), are placing higher than they would otherwise do.
While a high percentage of bigger Paragon and TB accounts, will stay lower.
In fact whichever big account doesn’t make it to GC, will place lower than he otherwise would.
This is the outcome of Prestige matchmaking.
We have UC 200k accounts already at GC, while nearly half Paragon accounts are still in VT.
Same was happening during AW Prestige matchmaking.
We had small allies at Platinum or even Master tiers 😂, while 2,3,5 or even 10x rated allies were at gold.
Rewards are on stakes, and in the case of BGs the most “meta” rewards.
There is no room to cater to things as “equal” matches.
As long as you want the rewards, you need to face the competition, no matter how minor or superior is account wise.
Any parameter of individual accounts, shouldn’t be a factor fo matchmaking in a shared pool of prizes.
That is pure manipulating that favours certain account types.
In case of Prestige matchmaking favours the lower Prestige accounts.
Within the same bracket, matchmaking should be totally RANDOM.

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

I'm not whipping out the size of my Account. This isn't a locker room. Also, you're literally coming back at me with the same point I made. The difference is, I'm not asserting I know how anything is at a level I'm not. I'm saying you can't use the example of someone who has the experience of a 4M Account as a testament to how it is for someone with the experience of an 800k Account.
People do it all the time. "I made an Alt, and they have it so easy."
Not the same. Not at all. People are learning at their own pace, with their own experience. They're not going back with all the knowledge and experience they have, and calling it a cake walk.
I don't claim to have experience I don't. That's just not the way I operate. I also don't presume to tell others how easy it is for them. I'm the last person that would ever say "Git gud.".
I will however, point out the irony in the argument when people complain they're not getting ahead with their own Matches, and blame others who are getting ahead with theirs.

Chatterofforums · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
I'm not whipping out the size of my Account. This isn't a locker room. Also, you're literally coming back at me with the same point I made. The difference is, I'm not asserting I know how anything is at a level I'm not. I'm saying you can't use the example of someone who has the experience of a 4M Account as a testament to how it is for someone with the experience of an 800k Account.
People do it all the time. "I made an Alt, and they have it so easy."
Not the same. Not at all. People are learning at their own pace, with their own experience. They're not going back with all the knowledge and experience they have, and calling it a cake walk.
I don't claim to have experience I don't. That's just not the way I operate. I also don't presume to tell others how easy it is for them. I'm the last person that would ever say "Git gud.".
I will however, point out the irony in the argument when people complain they're not getting ahead with their own Matches, and blame others who are getting ahead with theirs.

If you had the habit of "whipping it out on the locker room", I'm very glad I wasn't on any of the same teams as you. Awkward!

As to the rest of whatever you said, I stopped reading after the first sentence, which is what I should've done as soon as you entered this topic.

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

Greekhit said:

GroundedWisdom said:
I'm not defending anything. I'm clarifying that there's a huge difference between what's "easy" for someone with a lower Account, and what's "easy" for someone who is a seasoned Player with an Alt. That fact seems to be omitted quite often when people more advanced pass the judgment that others are getting easy Rewards. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy to the argument when people are complaining they're not getting ahead when coming up against larger Accounts in their own Matches, and asserting people are getting ahead because their Matches aren't as hard. The whole judgment lacks perspective.
I don’t think you have understand what Prestige matchmaking does exactly.
Small accounts by-pass competition as it is.
Whether you, or me, or anyone else, likes or not, this is what’s happening. It’s a fact. It’s not debatable.
And as an outcome of this, a high percentage of small accounts (if not all, in case of UC and Cav accounts), are placing higher than they would otherwise do.
While a high percentage of bigger Paragon and TB accounts, will stay lower.
In fact whichever big account doesn’t make it to GC, will place lower than he otherwise would.
This is the outcome of Prestige matchmaking.
We have UC 200k accounts already at GC, while nearly half Paragon accounts are still in VT.
Same was happening during AW Prestige matchmaking.
We had small allies at Platinum or even Master tiers 😂, while 2,3,5 or even 10x rated allies were at gold.
Rewards are on stakes, and in the case of BGs the most “meta” rewards.
There is no room to cater to things as “equal” matches.
As long as you want the rewards, you need to face the competition, no matter how minor or superior is account wise.
Any parameter of individual accounts, shouldn’t be a factor fo matchmaking in a shared pool of prizes.
That is pure manipulating that favours certain account types.
In case of Prestige matchmaking favours the lower Prestige accounts.
Within the same bracket, matchmaking should be totally RANDOM.

I'm quite aware of the results of Prestige Matchmaking. I suggested it originally, and I also saw the effects of it. I was never suggesting it was a long-term solution, just a way to prevent the manipulation temporarily until a better solution was found.
BGs are not the same, not in the current format. I also never suggested using Prestige. I DID point out that manipulation is something that needs to be addressed. It was true then and it's true now. There has to be something protecting people who are newer and still starting out from being pecked off by older Accounts who are just riding the system for easy Wins. I've already outlined why that's a problem. It's not just "dog-eat-dog". These Accounts are entirely limited because of how the scoring works. They can't compete "skill for skill" because they're bringing a knife to a gun fight.
The part that I'm pointing out in this discussion is, if people are arguing they're more skilled and deserve greater Rewards, then why aren't they winning their own Matches? The answer is the same argument for the other side. The difference is, the bane of one side is being justified for the boon of the other. Two wrongs don't make a right. People haven't earned the right to have easier Rewards just because they've played longer. They've earned the right to work harder for greater Rewards.
The game would be in a horrible state of affairs if the people who had the most accelerated growth were at the top. Nothing would change. I'm sure some would love that idea. No one would ever catch up to them. Only, you have to have accelerated growth earlier on, with plateaus, and slower advancement as you rise. That's what balances the entire system and allows people to make their way up the ladder. This idea that people have achieved some sort of easy win status isn't realistic. It's also dangerous. I've seen the other side of War. Many people really don't have much interest in it anymore. It's catered to the uppermost demographic, and it's not worth the effort for people under the tip. I'm also not proud to say that, because I've loved War since the first Beta, but that's the experience I've seen on the other end. There is a fine line between being competitive and disincentivizing people.

Moosetiptronic · January 2023

He purposefully tries to derail threads, again and again. His posts literally need to be left without reply.

I'm still in silver, solely matching paragons with similar 15k prestige decks.

While a bunch of 10k cavaliers are sitting in gamma 3.

Definitely nothing wrong with that.

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

That's why I still say the easiest solution is to address the Rewards rather than the Matchmaking. If the Rewards are scaled based on progression, not only are Players getting Rewards more appropriate to where they're at, but it also motivates them to reach the next Milestone for better Rewards overall. If the Rewards are the argument, then look at that.

zuffy · January 2023

I have him blocked so I never have to see his posts.

DrZola · January 2023

Here’s hoping we can put to rest nonsensical arguments for continued prestige matchmaking in BGs. Not only does abandoning prestige make sense in terms of fairness, but failure to do so also threatens to derail one of the most innovative modes in MCoC to date.

Do I want to beat up on UC accounts? If they have made it to my tier, then yes—absolutely. Happy to beat up on Proven or Conqueror if they are there as well.

Nearly half of my matches, though, are against “legends” (not always as good as the roster might indicate), and I’m usually left hoping my draft doesn’t hose me or that my connection doesn’t bonk in the middle of a match against an account sporting every useful champ for this meta, many at R4 and none below R3.

@DNA3000 has a solid set of suggestions that need more fleshing out, but at least they have the start of a workable solution. Only other thing I can think of is to have separate classes for each level of summoner—think “high school” for UC, “Junior college” for Cavs, “College” for TBs and “Pro” for Paragons—with separate, calibrated prizes and separate BG leagues for each level. But that would probably kill the mode entirely.

Dr. Zola

Graves_3 · January 2023

The easiest would be to make matchmaking completely random. To protect lower accounts, either stagger the starting point based on title or performance in previous season or just have separate leagues based on account progression with different sets of rewards. There is no reason to have prestige criteria for matchmaking.

Graves_3 · January 2023

DrZola said:

Only other thing I can think of is to have separate classes for each level of summoner—think “high school” for UC, “Junior college” for Cavs, “College” for TBs and “Pro” for Paragons—with separate, calibrated prizes and separate BG leagues for each level. But that would probably kill the mode entirely.

Dr. Zola

It can still be done if they make matchmaking random but give the individual accounts ability to pick what league they want to play in. If an uncollected player wants to play with paragons, they better be ready for the competition. Just like monthly EQ/SQ.

Chatterofforums · January 2023

@Kabam Miike @kabam Jax
@Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Porthos @Kabam Vydious

I'm going to ask again as today is Monday and maybe stuff was lost over the weekend.

Can someone from Kabam please acknowledge the concern that many of the Paragon or higher account players have.

Every time the lower players had BG concerns over past few seasons, mods were on it, which makes me confused why we can't get an acknowledgement here.

If you think that it's fair that many UC and Cav accounts are in GC getting better rewards than Paragon who can't get out of gold because extremely unfair matchmaking system that punishes ranking up champs, then I guess this will continue to go ignored as much as it shocks me that anyone can think that it is fair.

Ironman3000 · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
I'm not defending anything. I'm clarifying that there's a huge difference between what's "easy" for someone with a lower Account, and what's "easy" for someone who is a seasoned Player with an Alt. That fact seems to be omitted quite often when people more advanced pass the judgment that others are getting easy Rewards. There's a certain amount of hypocrisy to the argument when people are complaining they're not getting ahead when coming up against larger Accounts in their own Matches, and asserting people are getting ahead because their Matches aren't as hard. The whole judgment lacks perspective.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

ThePredator1001 · January 2023

It’s not just paragon players that get matched up against accounts stronger than theirs, I’m thronebreaker and I’m constantly matched up against players that the weakest champs in their deck are just as strong if not stronger than my top champs. It sucks but I’d much rather have that and have to be the underdog than get matched up against some poor uncollected player who has no chance of winning. The match making isn’t the best but it’s definitely needed that it faces players with similar progression against each other otherwise this mode would only be fun for the top progression players and would be ruined for a huge percentage of players.

This game isn’t just for the end game players it also needs those new players coming in to replace the ones that quit.

DL864 · January 2023

I will say this as a Paragon player matches got easier once in plat as it was matching me with smaller accounts that were using 5 stars. I don't know why the match making changed but it seemed to be more based on progression in BGs vs prestige. I thought since I didn't push hard this season that all the big accounts had moved to GC. I'm in GC now and it seems to be a lot of tb accounts still.

K00shMaan · January 2023

Graves_3 said:
The easiest would be to make matchmaking completely random. To protect lower accounts, either stagger the starting point based on title or performance in previous season or just have separate leagues based on account progression with different sets of rewards. There is no reason to have prestige criteria for matchmaking.

Switching to a BG based rating like GC does and basing matchmaking around that is the best long term solution but only if they stop resetting the progress we make each season in determining where someone should be ranked. 4 Weeks is honestly not even enough time to get everyone placed where they should be. It can take many months to truly be determined. Truly random matches is swinging the needle to far to the other side imo.

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

K00shMaan said:

Graves_3 said:
The easiest would be to make matchmaking completely random. To protect lower accounts, either stagger the starting point based on title or performance in previous season or just have separate leagues based on account progression with different sets of rewards. There is no reason to have prestige criteria for matchmaking.
Switching to a BG based rating like GC does and basing matchmaking around that is the best long term solution but only if they stop resetting the progress we make each season in determining where someone should be ranked. 4 Weeks is honestly not even enough time to get everyone placed where they should be. It can take many months to truly be determined. Truly random matches is swinging the needle to far to the other side imo.

At least when you have everyone in the same pool starting out. That's mayhem.

Graves_3 · January 2023

Chatterofforums said:
Now this ridiculous matchmaking system has got these lower entitled players complaining about having to fight decent players in leagues way above where they belong.

Same thing happened last season. It's ridiculous some dude just make a big complaint post complaining to Kabam hea facing paragons in diamond when he only has 3 r3 6 stars.

Meanwhike we have lots of paragons still stuck in gold and platinum and this dude comaimong about matches in diamond tier when he belongs way lower.

Kabam really needs to reevaluate this nonsense systems
K00shMaan said:

Graves_3 said:
The easiest would be to make matchmaking completely random. To protect lower accounts, either stagger the starting point based on title or performance in previous season or just have separate leagues based on account progression with different sets of rewards. There is no reason to have prestige criteria for matchmaking.
Switching to a BG based rating like GC does and basing matchmaking around that is the best long term solution but only if they stop resetting the progress we make each season in determining where someone should be ranked. 4 Weeks is honestly not even enough time to get everyone placed where they should be. It can take many months to truly be determined. Truly random matches is swinging the needle to far to the other side imo.
Agree with you that BG rating is probably the best long term solution but the supporters of the current system would claim that people will abuse the system by losing a bunch to get easier matches.

K00shMaan · January 2023

Graves_3 said:

Chatterofforums said:
Now this ridiculous matchmaking system has got these lower entitled players complaining about having to fight decent players in leagues way above where they belong.

Same thing happened last season. It's ridiculous some dude just make a big complaint post complaining to Kabam hea facing paragons in diamond when he only has 3 r3 6 stars.

Meanwhike we have lots of paragons still stuck in gold and platinum and this dude comaimong about matches in diamond tier when he belongs way lower.

Kabam really needs to reevaluate this nonsense systems
K00shMaan said:

Graves_3 said:
The easiest would be to make matchmaking completely random. To protect lower accounts, either stagger the starting point based on title or performance in previous season or just have separate leagues based on account progression with different sets of rewards. There is no reason to have prestige criteria for matchmaking.
Switching to a BG based rating like GC does and basing matchmaking around that is the best long term solution but only if they stop resetting the progress we make each season in determining where someone should be ranked. 4 Weeks is honestly not even enough time to get everyone placed where they should be. It can take many months to truly be determined. Truly random matches is swinging the needle to far to the other side imo.
Agree with you that BG rating is probably the best long term solution but the supporters of the current system would claim that people will abuse the system by losing a bunch to get easier matches.
And that's why you make sure that the rewards system doesn't make that a beneficial option to them. Yeah maybe they can do it to make the 48 hour objectives easier but just make sure that they can't really make any progress on the other rewards doing it that way. Their needs to be a better balance between the value of a win and a loss. Current system has all these situations where there is little downside to losing and also situations where wins can become meaningless.

Chatterofforums · January 2023

ThePredator1001 said:
It’s not just paragon players that get matched up against accounts stronger than theirs, I’m thronebreaker and I’m constantly matched up against players that the weakest champs in their deck are just as strong if not stronger than my top champs. It sucks but I’d much rather have that and have to be the underdog than get matched up against some poor uncollected player who has no chance of winning. The match making isn’t the best but it’s definitely needed that it faces players with similar progression against each other otherwise this mode would only be fun for the top progression players and would be ruined for a huge percentage of players.

This game isn’t just for the end game players it also needs those new players coming in to replace the ones that quit.

You are completely missing the point. And fyi, everyone competes against everyone in AW and UC can face Paragon with r5 6 stars. The big difference is that AW matchmaking doesn't reset everyone to zero every season so alliances end up in their appropriate tier after time but can fall or rise based on progression or pack there of of those in the alliance.

AW matchmaking makes it to where most people have a fairish chance in AW while letting all players compete for same rewards without allowing a weak or undeveloped rosters get better rewards than those they have no chance of beating.

A couple years ago AW tried a matchmaking system very similar to the current BG matchmaking system and it failed miserable and was abandoned when alliance still using 4 star champs were finishing higher and getting better rewards than alliances literally ten times stronger than them, all because the weak were able to bypass the stronget.

Greekhit · January 2023

Chatterofforums said:

A couple years ago AW tried a matchmaking system very similar to the current BG matchmaking system and it failed miserable and was abandoned when alliance still using 4 star champs were finishing higher and getting better rewards than alliances literally ten times stronger than them, all because the weak were able to bypass the stronget.

This what’s exactly happening at BGs now.
The sad part of it is, that Kabam didn’t learned their lessons from AW and the Prestige matchmaking consequences.
Yet they chose this as a solution to “sandbagging”, which was a problem, but way minor than letting small or tiny accounts overachieving in BGs, in disadvantage of bigger accounts.
And the most sad part of it is, that none of the moderators has jumped in the conversation yet, to at least acknowledge that the company is aware of the situation.
Because this, can’t be intentional.
A responsible answer is required to this.
@Kabam Miike @Kabam Zibiit

rockykoston · January 2023

I have to agree that matchmaking isn't perfect and it definitely discourages ranking up champs unless they fit the meta.
And even then, if you r4 one champ it sends you into the next level of competition, where it gets increasingly tough to win.

My PI was 12800 a week ago. Just for testing I added a few relics and ranked up my Nimrod. My PI is 13900 right now with those changes and ppl might think, whoa, but really my roster hasn't changed much.

I'm winning matches using my r2/3 champs and a lot of 5* r5 because that's what I have for this "meta".

If I r4 another champ, I'm sure it'll put a hard stop on me winning matches.

Greekhit · January 2023

rockykoston said:
I have to agree that matchmaking isn't perfect and it definitely discourages ranking up champs unless they fit the meta.
And even then, if you r4 one champ it sends you into the next level of competition, where it gets increasingly tough to win.

My PI was 12800 a week ago. Just for testing I added a few relics and ranked up my Nimrod. My PI is 13900 right now with those changes and ppl might think, whoa, but really my roster hasn't changed much.

I'm winning matches using my r2/3 champs and a lot of 5* r5 because that's what I have for this "meta".

If I r4 another champ, I'm sure it'll put a hard stop on me winning matches.

13.9k prestige is quite low to lure the big accounts.
When you reach the 15k mark you will start facing stacked accounts with r4s/r3s decks.
I’m at 15.6k prestige and I match up to full r4 decks.
And the most annoying part is, these full r4 deck accounts are still at Gold2, while UC accounts are at GC 😠
No matter how you try to justify this, it doesn’t seems right 🤔

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

That's something that happens as you progress either way. You go from being a big fish in a little pond to being a little fish in a big pond. As we advance, we're not going to be on top right away.

GroundedWisdom · January 2023

The larger issue is starting out with no rhyme or reason, and that makes the first two weeks of the entire process unreasonable. To the point where it makes no sense in playing at all until the dust settles.

Greekhit · January 2023

GroundedWisdom said:
The larger issue is starting out with no rhyme or reason, and that makes the first two weeks of the entire process unreasonable. To the point where it makes no sense in playing at all until the dust settles.

That’s an issue too.
Accounts should “kick start” at VT tiers based on the previous season final placement.
That would allow a totally random matchmaking (within the same bracket), and protect the lower accounts from facing higher accounts from the start of the procedure.
Then no one could complain, because everyone will be getting what their combination of account and skill can achieve.

rockykoston · January 2023

Greekhit said:

rockykoston said:
I have to agree that matchmaking isn't perfect and it definitely discourages ranking up champs unless they fit the meta.
And even then, if you r4 one champ it sends you into the next level of competition, where it gets increasingly tough to win.

My PI was 12800 a week ago. Just for testing I added a few relics and ranked up my Nimrod. My PI is 13900 right now with those changes and ppl might think, whoa, but really my roster hasn't changed much.

I'm winning matches using my r2/3 champs and a lot of 5* r5 because that's what I have for this "meta".

If I r4 another champ, I'm sure it'll put a hard stop on me winning matches.
13.9k prestige is quite low to lure the big accounts.
When you reach the 15k mark you will start facing stacked accounts with r4s/r3s decks.
I’m at 15.6k prestige and I match up to full r4 decks.
And the most annoying part is, these full r4 deck accounts are still at Gold2, while UC accounts are at GC 😠
No matter how you try to justify this, it doesn’t seems right 🤔

That's what I said. Ranking up champs has never been so bad.

I want to, but really I don't want to.

Not sure what you mean by "try to justify".

I'd like to add, I have faced accounts with several r4 champs. I think there was a time I faced a few ppl with more than 8 r4 champs.

Their pi was over 15k

rockykoston · January 2023

Greekhit said:

GroundedWisdom said:
The larger issue is starting out with no rhyme or reason, and that makes the first two weeks of the entire process unreasonable. To the point where it makes no sense in playing at all until the dust settles.
That’s an issue too.
Accounts should “kick start” at VT tiers based on the previous season final placement.
That would allow a totally random matchmaking (within the same bracket), and protect the lower accounts from facing higher accounts from the start of the procedure.
Then no one could complain, because everyone will be getting what their combination of account and skill can achieve.

I like the idea but

how do you propose we get the rewards that are given as we progress through the ranked tiers?

BG question to Paragons

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