Maybe a good compromise would be to leave it as is and then any new "everest" content that gets released has a limit on how many revives one can use in there, that would still render the farming option pointless while maintaining difficulty. The only thing here is that those folk who want spend a fortune on revives to push through it, won't be able to... which I don't see kabam doing
I like the idea of limiting revives on future content. We’ve actually seen this with recent SQ objectives where we need to solo bosses.
And I agree this doesn’t align with what we are all assuming is the driving factor of this change - to sell more units/revives.
Perhaps future Everest content uses some special revive that is only obtainable through units? Think something like Abyss specific revives.
Yeah something like that could work. Only allowed to use *20 revives (level 1 or 2) bur you can buy quest specific revives for units and use an unlimited amount of them
I myself am a f2p player, looking at some of this more difficult content and debating reward vs effort, but this change would absolutely crush that for me. I do not have the "skills" to use only a few revives or have ten thousand units to complete something like Labyrinth of Legends (as an example) without doing exactly what you're proposing a stop to, the potion farming. The change you are implying, even with the addition of the apothecary, does not give a normal player, f2p or casual spender, a fighting chance at ever seeing the completion of some of this content. In my eyes, this is a blatant cash grab and its going to really crush a lot of spirits across the battlerealm.
You claim that some days between 300-500k revives were farmed. There is a reason for that need to farm! So many of us rely on that even for story progression. Please rethink this choice!
Well considering just through gold 3 ranking in AW runs through 4500 alliances x 30 comes out to about 135,000 active accounts(I know all those alliances aren't full byt I also stopped at Gold 3). Obviously there are alot more active accounts than this. So either everybody is farming around 3 or less a day which isn't alot or only a fraction of the player base is farming revives which makes it not a big deal. Even with some variance for those that farm nothing compared to those that farm alot when considering this the reported number isn't actually that big a deal.
I get ny numbers aren't exact but as far as aproximations go when viewed like this Kabam's freakout is questionable at best.
You also have to factor in the smaller number of Players who are actually farming them. I'd wager it's not the entire population.
They don’t care about you and the others who barely touch the content they put out. Because even if this change goes through, your player base will continue to remain stagnant or possibly call it quits.
This gets into Kafkaesque territory. The change targets farming revives. I know what content I've done and I know what I've done to complete it, and I'm not going to shift the discussion towards a defense of playstyle. If you think this change doesn't affect me, you're just wrong. If you think the change *shouldn't* affect me or attempting to lay a childish trap along those lines, I'm not biting.
I didn’t say it shouldn’t affect you. All I said was, there are players in different player bases above you that will be affected on a much bigger scale. Do read the line I said that your “target group” will continue to stagnate or quit. That’s still affecting you guys. Don’t tell me this change is suddenly going to push you to attempt Abyss or whatever; if anything it pushes you away further.
This is still in line with the assumption you made about how you are *the* targetted player, *the* player base that will be impacted the most and as well as yourself going as far as segregating whales and how the average player plays(in other posts) - hence me stating the groups, but suddenly you don’t want to acknowledge that. It’s certainly isn’t the case and I had to shoot down that dangerous misconception you put out.
There is only one group that will be affected by the change: the players who revive farm to complete content. You can dice them up any way you like to try to make the case that some of them are "affected more" but I won't. We're all in the same boat, from people struggling to complete Carinas to people struggling to beat the Collector. Maybe you see yourself as having the superior struggle, and thus the superior perspective, and the superior ownership of the problem. Maybe you think because it affects your problems but you had no issues with the problems other players face, their problems are lesser. Frankly, I don't know and I at the moment I don't care.
Members of my "target group" may or may not quit. But I've outlasted all the other people making that claim before, and I'm confident I'll do so again, with my stagnant account falling farther and farther behind all the other accounts who have vastly stronger rosters than I have and have progressed far beyond me in content.
And one more thing. There are players like me that regularly farm revives to complete content. However, I *also* belong to a different group of players, because I'm more than one thing. The group that likes challenges. Doing EoP in four revives is not a challenge when everyone else is blasting through it with twelve. If everyone else is going to blast through it, so will I, and I will spend my valuable time elsewhere. But when SoP first came out, I spend a *ton* of time trying to do it itemless. To the point of doing completely crazy things, and not always successfully. But before it was fashionable to simply smoke the content because everyone should be able to do so, I spent dozens of hours trying to get the solo, because it was fun. Because it was uncommon, because I didn't feel like I was wasting my time on a trivial exercise. I didn't feel that way with EoP, because by the time EoP rolled around, people were treating EoP like a broken ATM. It was much harder, and it would have taken tremendous effort for someone of my skill level to even attempt it. It wasn't worth it.
Maybe with revive farming gone, it will become worth it again. Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content. Maybe they will return to being designed for players who want a challenge. There are a lot of us out there, but most of us are not stupid enough to express that thought on the forums in a controversial thread. A lot of the time, it is just me.
Maybe that's what bothers you the most, and maybe that's why you have to put yourself into a privileged spot in the aggrieved hierarchy. You don't think with revive farming gone, players won't be unable to do the next Carinas. You're worried they will. You just won't be one of them.
Well considering just through gold 3 ranking in AW runs through 4500 alliances x 30 comes out to about 135,000 active accounts(I know all those alliances aren't full byt I also stopped at Gold 3). Obviously there are alot more active accounts than this. So either everybody is farming around 3 or less a day which isn't alot or only a fraction of the player base is farming revives which makes it not a big deal. Even with some variance for those that farm nothing compared to those that farm alot when considering this the reported number isn't actually that big a deal.
I get ny numbers aren't exact but as far as aproximations go when viewed like this Kabam's freakout is questionable at best.
You also have to factor in the smaller number of Players who are actually farming them. I'd wager it's not the entire population.
So smaller number of accounts = punish whole playerbase?
Its either a wide spread problem or it's not. If it's not then they are punishing everybody for the actions of a few. If it is widespread then people aren't farming that much. It can't be both.
Either way it is an overreaction on Kabam's part.
Not really. When something becomes exploitable and word spreads, it becomes a growing leak in the Resource economy.
There are so many better alternatives that could have been developed to address the issue, so that a true compromise was reached. Players want meaningful content. The apothecary is a fine idea, but a new quest to earn revives per day being a pathetic auto fight quest isn’t exciting, but could be something that players could get behind if done correctly. Cavalier, Thronebreaker, and Paragon players should have an opportunity to complete a Apothecary quest that is designed to be a LOL, AOL, EOP, Gauntlet, and High level Story quest “Training” type, daily or weekly quest that requires the player to EARN a lvl 3 revive after completing 100%, and lvl 2 revive or lvl 4 Health potion for winning the fights on the 1 energy per step short (Realm of Legends) style quest. Make the quest star or snowflake shaped, starting in the middle, allowing the player to choose one of any of the defenders to attack first, then a portal to any of the next defenders, until finishing all fights and completing the challenge. Fights should be high health, appropriate attack damage, not champion counter specific, with no more than 2 nodes. This would help players to earn the revives needed, provide a short challenge to test player readiness, and add another quest that end game players could use to test new champions!
It is WILD to me that people are honestly trying to pretend this move isnt motivated by trying to get summoner's to spend more.
If this was about stopping people being able to revive through difficult content, as they claim and as DNA and GW claim, the very obvious and clear solution to this problem would be item caps on Everest content.
Since people keep bringing this up as proof that Kabam's announcement was not made in good faith, we should address this directly. Let's refresh our memory of what was actually stated in the announcement:
This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain because Summoners simply spam revives. For us to allow what is effectively a loophole for these challenging pieces of content, we would have to dilute rewards given from that content, and that is not something we want to do.
Now, when Kabam designs end game content, there are a number of different variables that have to get balanced between themselves. First of all, what's the point even of "Everest Content?" It isn't normal progressional content. It isn't content that is intended for the average player to be necessarily able to complete. Not even the average end game player. It is intended to be a challenge that most people fail, at least the first time. It is intended to stand there as a test for end game players to attempt to conqueror when they've done everything else. It is not a stepping stone to something else: you don't climb Everest to reach the ladder that takes you to the Moon.
Although the intent is for the content to not be a stepping stone to something else, it inevitably is in an indirect sense, because you have to provide sufficient rewards to entice players to tackle it (usually, but that discussion is a separate thing entirely). What could possibly entice end game players who have done everything and also mostly have everything? It has to be a reward difficult or impossible to get anywhere else.
But if we place rewards like that in the content, it *must* be sufficiently difficult that very few players can actually complete it, at least initially. That number can slowly grow over time, but if it is too high, those rewards become economy distorting. So we increase the difficulty of the content high enough so that only the strongest players with the strongest rosters and the best strategy can complete it.
What about revives? If players use revives, they can lower the difficulty. To some degree, that's fine, but beyond a certain point unlimited use of revives lowers the difficulty too low. So just cap the number of revives and call it a day, right?
Cap them to what? If we make the cap very low, then it is possible that the vast majority of players will *never* attempt the content ever. That's problematic because there are only so many dev hours in the day. You presume that even Everest content will be done by the top 1% of 1%, but eventually that number will grow to the top 1% or maybe top 5%, because it is otherwise impossible to cost justify having a team of developers work on content only a few dozen players will ever complete.
You also have to consider monetization of the game. While you don't *want* players to just spend their way through, if players are consistently prevented from spending where *they* feel its appropriate, you will threaten the revenue base of the game. To repeat: you don't *want* them to spend, but you can't *completely block* their spending. So where you place the cap is an extremely complex question, and one that will have to be revisited with every piece of content you make.
You might say, well this is easy, just do X. Nope, that's not how this works. Kabam is not a hive mind, Kabam is a company with different developers in charge of different things with different ideas and different responsibilities. If you want to implement an item cap on Everest content, you will have to justify that specific cap. You will have to convince the content designers that that cap is appropriate for that content. You will have to convince the game economy people that it is consistent with the game economy, and the monetization people that it is not one too many straws on the monetization camel's back. There are a lot of people who have a say in how an item cap will affect all parts of the game, and they all don't have to agree with you. And you will have to do this over and over again with every piece of content you create.
Even *if* they wanted to implement an item cap, that's not straight forward or easy. And you still have the question hanging out there "why do we have an easy to autopilot infinite revive farm in the game?" It isn't just affecting Everest content, that's just the most obvious and most detrimental symptom. If you're going to tackle that symptom anyway, why not tackle it at its source, and eliminate all side effects simultaneously?
So just because they didn't implement an item cap, doesn't prove they have other motives than the stated one, and doesn't prove its about making money. It just proves this is a complex balancing problem, like most balancing problems, and the *obvious* solution was to tackle it at the source.
I'm going to go on the low end and say that there are 500k active players. I'm sure that fluctuates from day to day but it's an easily workable number and justifiable looking at AW numbers. Let's look at the numbers to get to 300k revives a day:
1 -100k players getting 3 a day. 2 -50k players getting 6 a day. 3 -25k players getting 12 a day. 4 -10k players getting 30 a day. 5 -5k players getting 60 a day.
Looking at that breaks down, IMO the first three are a small enough revive number to matter. Scenario 4 is enough revives to matter but it's only 2% of players. Scenario 5 isn't very feasible and it's only 1% of players.
Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content.
Which came first? Revive-fest content or people mega-farming revives? People always farmed a bit, but when the content got unreasonable and the controls got unreliable, the over-achievers stooped to the occasion and got after serious farming.
Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content.
Which came first? Revive-fest content or people mega-farming revives? People always farmed a bit, but when the content got unreasonable and the controls got unreliable, the over-achievers stooped to the occasion and got after serious farming.
It's chicken-and-egg, really. The content is designed to meet the demands and the demands are increasing because of the content. That's the problem. It doesn't bode well for future content.
I fairly think this is one of the best decissions they could make, content is done too easily by people that are not even skilled enough to do it just spamming revives, so this encourages people to try to learn how to really play the game properly, not only this but makes the challenging things challenging, when people is able to do this content the first day it goes out just spamming 60 revives that means that something must be done, If anyone thinks that 2 revives PER DAY is not enough, that only shows how bad people became. Getting revives became way easier than before, so I think is fair to nerf the amount we can get by farming them.
The main problem I see here, is that they done this in the worst moment possible, since people need more revives because everything in the game is bugged, so they should have waited a little bit more to make this changes until they fixed at least half of the bugs they have currently in game.
And to be fair with Kabam, this is not a charity, this is a company, we already get almost everything free, I dont think its that bad to have to play more Arenas to get more revives for the hard content, or spending to get them.
I think its just a bad timing, but a really good decission, I expect a lot of disagrees but sorry fams, I dont think this is about opinions, since I repeat, you dont need more than 2 revives a day, or you shouldnt need them, If you need them then that means you are not playing properly, so you should try to change it, you dont wanna try to improve your skills? Then I think it is fair to pay for the revives then, and I say this being a F2P player.
It’s not even guaranteed revives it’s a 1% and 5%
Wrong, everyday you get 1 revive exploring the hard difficulty, and another one by the daily quest, and seriously, we shouldnt need to relay on revives to do content, if we need some revives because it is hard content, okay, fair, but people try to speed up things just spamming revives, thats not the way to progress.
You act like this games difficulty isn't intentionally set up to have you spam revives. Kabam just wants us to use units on them instead of getting them free
Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content.
Which came first? Revive-fest content or people mega-farming revives? People always farmed a bit, but when the content got unreasonable and the controls got unreliable, the over-achievers stooped to the occasion and got after serious farming.
It's chicken-and-egg, really. The content is designed to meet the demands and the demands are increasing because of the content. That's the problem. It doesn't bode well for future content.
Anecdotally, it's the chicken for me. I was never into revive farming at all. I would keep trying again and again till i could solo. But that meant I used to take ages to progress some hard content. Then when i started to do the Carina 4* LOL challenges,i realised that without farming it's impossible to do those quests and I fell into that hole.
Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content.
Which came first? Revive-fest content or people mega-farming revives? People always farmed a bit, but when the content got unreasonable and the controls got unreliable, the over-achievers stooped to the occasion and got after serious farming.
I believe these happened in concert. Players farmed some, and the content rose to meet the farming some. But I think the situation changed materially when Kabam revamped the low Acts. That's when potion farming went from stacking up hundreds of heals to hundreds of revives. Once upon a time people talked about how much units content might take on average, because everyone knew you could farm potions but only up to a point, so you farmed as much as you could and then had a reserve unit stash for what was necessary beyond that. But in the last year or so, the attitude (as far as I've seen) has shifted towards simply grinding out whatever gigantic number seems reasonable and then using whatever you need from that.
But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.
The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.
After reading all the post I just came to some conclussions:
1. The theory of the changes is good, remove the revive farming on Acts 1 to 3 is the best choice they could do to keep the game alive, otherwise every content would be easier than supposed to be, BUT, there are 2 main problems with the changes:
a) The game itself is completely bugged, which means people are using more resources than they should, probably without the problems with AI and Inputs, the amount of revives and health potions used would be the half or less, so players right now need those revives more than ever, so I would wait for Kabam to make this changes.
b) They would be giving a good alternative if this was 2017-2019, since the game as evolved but the potions and revives didnt got updated, 375 HP potions are useless unless you have Sigil so you can trade 25 for the big HP potion. Champion health pools nowadays are at least at 30k, so it starts doing something after Lvl 3 Health Potions, below that is nothing, so the minimum Kabam should give for the easy run should be at least 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion, with a high chance to get another one, this in the easiest one, this said, they should also have more difficulties, instead of Easy and Hard, 4 at least with this rewards:
Easy: Playing vs 4* Champs
1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 3 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to 2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.
Normal: Playing vs 5* Champs
1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 4 HP Potion with a 25% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to 2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 1 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.
Hard: Playing vs 6* Champs
1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 15% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to. 2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 10% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.
Very Hard: Playing vs 7* Champs
1. Completion would give 1 Lvl 5 HP Potion with a 45% chance to get another one in the node that they refered to. 2. Exploration would give 1 Lvl 2 Revive with a 25% change to get another one in the node that they refered to.
I think this would make the change way better.
And additionally if the players are too greedy, make a Objective for every difficulty were if you do all the Daily Quests of the week you get an extra reward, something like:
Easy: 1 Lvl 4 HP Pot and 1 additional Lvl 1 Revive Normal: 1 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 1 Lvl 2 Revive Hard: 2 Lvl 5 HP Pot and 2 Lvl 2 Revives Very Hard: 1 Lvl 6 Pot and 1 Lvl 3 Revive
But this last part would be just if Kabam is generous enough to make it.
2. The community is too used to farming revives, people exploits too much this method and they are acting like when you start saying "No, you cant get that" to a spoiled child and they start screaming at the store, something like that, so everybody is acting like "Yeah Kabam is not being comprehensive!" but neither the players are, and its very clear a lot of you dont really understand how some things work or should work like, and when someone tries to explain it the best way they can, you all just act like you are much more wiser because you completed determinated content in game with a good bunch of revives that you farmed, when that doesnt give you any real knowledge at all about anything but on how many revives you needed to do that content and how hard that content was for you but not how hard it should be.
So I'll give some explanations here
There is something called P2F, Pay 2 Fast, where the game is perfectly doable without spending money on it, but you can do it faster if you spend money, which is the case of MCOC. The problem is that a lot of people by using this method of farming thinks that you must be able to do the content as fast as you can, where thats not the case, not because I say it but because it is like that, thats why when Abyss came out, the people that were able to do it first were awarded in some ways, because It is hard content that a lot of people has undone cause it is very hard and you need a preparation time for it.
Gauntlet or EoP are much easier Everest Content, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do it as soon as it goes out, because it is not meant that way, neither to be able to be done for everybody, but for the ones more skilled and with bigger and better rosters, so the point is, you want to do it the first day or the first week because you want the rewards and you want the prestige it gaves to you for the rest of the content like Alliance? Nice, then you want to do faster the content that is not supposed to be done fast, what that means? You fall in the group of people that would Pay 2 Fast, so you spend if you want to do something faster than the rest of the people, and thats how it works, you can like it or not, but this is not something that you can argue about, it is just how it is.
So, you dont want to spend money? Then you have to farm like every game that works this way, and that takes time, like every game that works this way, the problem here is that revive farming was a WAY FASTER way that it should be, because you could get 100 revives in two days, I got 20 revives in just some hours on auto-fight, If you think about that objectively, that is COMPLETELY insane, and Kabam usually acts like "Yeah thats not supposed to be like that" when they do changes, but THIS is not that case, you shouldnt be able to farm such a useful resource that easily and that fast, and again, THATS HOW IT IS, its not something you can argue about.
So for all the people that want to keep their accounts at the top places, they have to do the same the top places do, which is either spending on the game or using your time playing arenas to get Units to be able to buy this revives, you dont like it because it is slower or harder than doing autofights on Act 2 and 3? Well, obviously you are not going to like it but that doesnt mean it is unfair.
So with this change Kabam fixes 2 problems:
1. The tremendous exploit of farming revives on Acts that you shouldnt be repeating for that matter, getting a ton of valuable resources on a couple of hours. 2. The problem with their Everest Content, where people that is not even Paragon being able to do Carina's Challenges (which ALWAYS were meant for the people with EVERYTHING done, so they still have hard things to do) just spamming revives, when again, it is content that isnt supposed to be done the first day.
So the final conclussion after all I said is that neither the players and Kabam are being comprehensive.
And Im sorry if you are disagree, but again, this is not about opinions, this is about how the game works, and about how the game should work, I just hope that Kabam waits till they fix the bugs to make this change and when they make it, they upgrade the Daily Quest so it fits better with the actual state of the game.
Imagine returning to the same first day comments when that isn’t the case for anything mentioned. It’s been months and even years for some of the content and they still require spamming revives.
That one cyclops challenge with a 3* REQUIRES you to spam revives since he sucks and you also get screwed on the collector even if you play perfectly (even the best players did this with many many revives). 4* LoL challenges require a ton of revives no matter how well you play
It’s amazing how you just keep reiterating the same tone deaf points with no care. Hard content and content that forces you to spend revives regardless of how good you play are not equivalent
EOP challenges could be out for another year and they would still be just as difficult to do unless you have every objective champ at rank 4/5 (even so, it would take a lot since they’re very inoptimal for the fights). Unless what you’re suggesting is that everyone waits until the content is outdated and able to be completed itemless
People that have been here for years know perfectly that they can do that content without this revive farming system, not without revives, players always received enough revives to do the content that requires revive to be done, and thats a fact, I've done all the content that was hard back then without farming revives, I remember act 6 worse fights done without revives because I didnt have time to farm revives or units and I was a non spender so I couldnt rely on spending money, so I waited till I had enough revives and units to do so, a lot of people did Abyss without that revive farming, what required a lot of revives, more than the Carina's Challenges, so the point that says "We need revive farming to have enough revives to do content" is just untrue, you get enough revives through other ways, not only revives but units, so you can go through the content without this exploit, and dude, thats not arguable, there are content that REQUIRES to use revives, but that doesnt mean you wont have enough revives/units to do so, yeah you need revives for some of the 3* and 4* champ Carina Challenges, but as I said, you are not going to do that challenges unless thats the only content you have left, because thats the objective of Kabam dropping that challenges, for the people that have nothing else besides de AQ,AW, Arenas and BG to do, and after the drop of BG, some of those Carina Challenges are not worth the effort and the resources anymore, so I dont really understand why everyone bargains with that excuse when I dont think any of you is going to try those challenges unless thats what you have left, and If you were about to do it, again, you wont ESTRICTLY NEED revive farming, it helps? Yeah, of course it does, but you get revives from the new daily quest, that I hope they restructure somehow like I stated before, you get revives from Daily 22h Quests/Missions, you still get revives on EQ and you still can get revives on Acts 1-4 but with much lower %, you get revives from 4h Crystals, you still have the Halls of Healing (is this the right name? I dont really remember) and you have the deals they put on store sometimes where you get a ton of revives, heals and energy refills with 300 units, which you can get pretty easily.
And I didnt even consider the units yet, so I dont think anybody is going to go low on revives, but you will have to obtain them from other ways instead of just auto farming Act 2 and 3, and you will have to prepare yourself more for each impossible fight so you are more efficient than ever, and I was preparing myself to do the Carina Challenges 3 and some of the Carina Challenges 2, I am affected by this change but the fact that Im not able to farm revives, what Im going to do? Just farm them from other areas and wait a little more to do that content.
And the point that people make about "Yeah but top players need to do it as soon as possible", dude, Kabam waited a ton to drop this Everest Content, you think you wont have time to farm units and 4h Crystals and Revives for the next Everest Content? You will have time enough, Im pretty sure, and If you are at the top players, then you dont need really revives because you have most of the content done, and the one they release usually is not that hard to need more than 10 revives maybe? And thats already a ton of revives.
I think people is looking at this change like they are not getting any revives besides the ones they buy, when that is not going to be the case.
And I was watching ContestChampion and BG himself talked about this, he said that he did all the content this years without the revive farming, so he thinks that we will be fine, and he is a F2P player, Im not gonna talk about this anymore because I think if you really think about this, you will notice that its not really that big of a deal, makes things slower but not that much
Kabam filled that post with trigger words, vague statements with biggish numbers and no scale or frame of reference, and business practice phrases from a workplace dystopia cartoon like they had to hit a quota.
"This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain because Summoners simply spam revives."
What constitutes frenzied? If it was trivialized, what was your reasonable expectation that the farmers failed to meet? What makes for spamming revives? Would you consider me immediately reviving twice in the span of a minute at the first fight after going in and getting killed by their initial combo twice in a row while my champ stands there unresponsive, spamming? What if the same thing happened on almost every fight?
"Without these changes, we risk having to cancel development on upcoming high difficulty content currently in the works."
Go for it. Won't miss what I didn't know about and I likely wouldn't be able to complete it anyway without having enough revives to feel comfortable even starting it.
"You may see an increase in your internet service bill. Some of our highest usage internet service customers are utilizing upwards of 30GB! Per month! Such frenzied and reckless internet usage may force us to re-evaluate connection speeds and uptime for all customers in the future if we don't include an additional fee. Boo and hiss at those people! It's their fault we have to treat you like this!"
That's what it read like to me.
Maybe a 2nd effort that tries a little harder (at all) to evoke a positive reaction and provides some clarification would be good.
But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.
The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.
A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)." The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)." The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
I constantly feel mediocre because I watch those youtube guides and read forum posts, try and do the exact same thing, and invariably have <10% level of success. I did one EOP left path run with "CGR makes Warlock and the other fights easy" and had to use up so many revives. When everything lines up perfectly, then yes, he can take off a huge chunk of Warlock's health off. But things rarely line up perfectly, especially not as perfectly as those youtube videos show it to be.
I don't begrudge these players who find the game easy, but it is worth pointing out that their experiences are not likely the same as the majority of players.
Even if a minority agree with Kabam’s decision, it’s quite evident the majority on the forums (and others on Reddit, Twitter, YouTube who aren’t on here) disagree with the change and would like it reversed (or changes to the revive and potion cap/quest to make up for it).
When is it coming? And are drop rates already down? A.k.a how many days exactly do i have to farm for abyss last 2 paths? P.s How is the world would i be able to do abyss with like 30 revives if i cant farm more? I am really worried i may never be able to explore abyss now. I will not put 5000 units into abyss when there will be like 2 generic awakenings and a CHOOSE THE CHAMP YOU WANT crystal for 5000 in july or october.
Before I knew about revive farming, I attempted the 6.2 champion boss (pre-nerf) with Claire. No matter how hard I tried, I could not bring him down. I spent around 1500 units before giving up. I remember feeling horrible for days because of all that arena grinding was down the drain. I kept at it because the Youtubers made it look so simple. After the nerf and getting Doom,
I was able to get him down. Now with revive farming, I can complete content and feel good and have fun playing the game. If I have to go back to the days of using units to revive, instead of buying offers, then I don’t know if I want to keep playing.
I spend about $500 a year on the game. I guess that is not enough to keep the lights on. Just tell us you are hurting for money instead coming up a long winded story and “compromise” that only benefits you.
They mentioned they're discussing the Inventory caps, but I think it's worth noting these things aren't exactly a democracy. People express their feelings on it and what I've seen over the years is Kabam does the best they can to accommodate those concerns, as much as their own objectives and goals will allow. From time to time, something is not wanted but necessary. It's not always about what's popularly accepted.
Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content.
Which came first? Revive-fest content or people mega-farming revives? People always farmed a bit, but when the content got unreasonable and the controls got unreliable, the over-achievers stooped to the occasion and got after serious farming.
I believe these happened in concert. Players farmed some, and the content rose to meet the farming some. But I think the situation changed materially when Kabam revamped the low Acts. That's when potion farming went from stacking up hundreds of heals to hundreds of revives. Once upon a time people talked about how much units content might take on average, because everyone knew you could farm potions but only up to a point, so you farmed as much as you could and then had a reserve unit stash for what was necessary beyond that. But in the last year or so, the attitude (as far as I've seen) has shifted towards simply grinding out whatever gigantic number seems reasonable and then using whatever you need from that.
How can it happen in concert when you've just said "Once upon a time people talked about how much units content might take on average". Revive-fest content clearly came first since people had to use units supplement non-mega farmed revives to get through the content before mega-farming became a thing.
They mentioned they're discussing the Inventory caps, but I think it's worth noting these things aren't exactly a democracy. People express their feelings on it and what I've seen over the years is Kabam does the best they can to accommodate those concerns, as much as their own objectives and goals will allow. From time to time, something is not wanted but necessary. It's not always about what's popularly accepted.
I would call it a “dollar democracy”. It’s the consumer that keeps MCOC running, if this decision causes players to allocate their money elsewhere, it’s quite obviously not the correct decision on Kabam’s part.
I agree that they don’t have to submit to all our demands (we do make some absurd requests at times), but if they release the revive nerf and apothecary quest without any improvements it would suggest deafness towards the communities opinion. We aren’t asking for 5 lvl 3 revives per day, but 1 lvl 1 revive a day and some level 1 potions is honestly useless for most players.
I've been thinking and what about introducing a new questing area in game, let's call it "Mythic Quests" for the purpose of the thought, Any new everest content that gets released going forward is labelled a Mythic Quest, Kabam also introduce Mythic revives and potions, the player is only able to revive or heal in these Quests with these revives/potions, these items are only useable in Mythic Quests and nowhere else. Then change the rewards for this new Apocethary to award Mythic potions and revives to the players (also, of course sell these items for units too).
This way you stop the "spamming" of everest content going forward while still keeping the effort made in this new apocethary relevant.
As it stands the players who haven't done the eop gauntlet etc etc will be at a bit of a disadvantage when they do go to do the content as theyve not being able to farm them revives like those who have already done it that way. If something like I suggested was to happen the current existing content that many have "spammed their way through" would still be an option for them to do the same way.
Using your words against you.. it’s a loophole that we can spam revives.. but buying UNLIMITED revives isn’t a loophole? Maybe set a limit to how many people can buy?
How are we supposed to clear content that takes 50 revives when the stash limit is 15? And the 4 crystals drop 1 revive every 200 crystals.. maybe make this much larger so we can save over months to clear content?
What if you actually look at the health potions, take some basic math classes and realize they are worthless with R4 6* or higher. An entire stash of potions to heal 1 champ.
So many on the verge of quitting. Please stop making this decision easier for us.
But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.
The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.
A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)." The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
This observation is not the problem. Whether people complain about something is in and of itself not something I think is automatically actionable. Usually the opposite. Rather, this was a symptom of the larger problem: that farming revives created an atmosphere where this was both a problem unto itself and acting as the prevalent point of discussion, to the point of influencing more people who didn't know the full story.
We are, all of us who discuss the game publicly, a tiny, practically inconsequential minority of the full playerbase. Until we start to tilt the playing field in a direction. Nobody cares if twelve people on the forums thinks Star Lord is the best champ in the game. Until a few dozen people blindly follow them, and cause a few hundred friends and alliance mates to start chasing him, causing even more players to assume that where they go the herd should follow.
We only see the forums, the Reddit, the tiny tiny speck of tweets that float by. The devs see what all the thousands of players of the game are collectively doing. They also don't care what a few dozen people do, but they do care when they start to see the herd move.
It is also very hard to overstate the power of Hercules in this context. He is not the totality of the problem. However, for a lot of content the totality of the problem is that unlimited revives makes the impossible just expensive, and Hercules makes the expensive cheap. Unlimited revives is allowing people to take their math final home with them. Hercules is handing them a calculator with the test before they leave.
Comments
I like where this thought process is going.
A real compromise. Good stuff.
You claim that some days between 300-500k revives were farmed. There is a reason for that need to farm! So many of us rely on that even for story progression. Please rethink this choice!
Members of my "target group" may or may not quit. But I've outlasted all the other people making that claim before, and I'm confident I'll do so again, with my stagnant account falling farther and farther behind all the other accounts who have vastly stronger rosters than I have and have progressed far beyond me in content.
And one more thing. There are players like me that regularly farm revives to complete content. However, I *also* belong to a different group of players, because I'm more than one thing. The group that likes challenges. Doing EoP in four revives is not a challenge when everyone else is blasting through it with twelve. If everyone else is going to blast through it, so will I, and I will spend my valuable time elsewhere. But when SoP first came out, I spend a *ton* of time trying to do it itemless. To the point of doing completely crazy things, and not always successfully. But before it was fashionable to simply smoke the content because everyone should be able to do so, I spent dozens of hours trying to get the solo, because it was fun. Because it was uncommon, because I didn't feel like I was wasting my time on a trivial exercise. I didn't feel that way with EoP, because by the time EoP rolled around, people were treating EoP like a broken ATM. It was much harder, and it would have taken tremendous effort for someone of my skill level to even attempt it. It wasn't worth it.
Maybe with revive farming gone, it will become worth it again. Maybe challenge content will no longer be designed to be revive-fests when most people can't simply throw unlimited revives at the content. Maybe they will return to being designed for players who want a challenge. There are a lot of us out there, but most of us are not stupid enough to express that thought on the forums in a controversial thread. A lot of the time, it is just me.
Maybe that's what bothers you the most, and maybe that's why you have to put yourself into a privileged spot in the aggrieved hierarchy. You don't think with revive farming gone, players won't be unable to do the next Carinas. You're worried they will. You just won't be one of them.
We'll see. If you're still around then.
Now, when Kabam designs end game content, there are a number of different variables that have to get balanced between themselves. First of all, what's the point even of "Everest Content?" It isn't normal progressional content. It isn't content that is intended for the average player to be necessarily able to complete. Not even the average end game player. It is intended to be a challenge that most people fail, at least the first time. It is intended to stand there as a test for end game players to attempt to conqueror when they've done everything else. It is not a stepping stone to something else: you don't climb Everest to reach the ladder that takes you to the Moon.
Although the intent is for the content to not be a stepping stone to something else, it inevitably is in an indirect sense, because you have to provide sufficient rewards to entice players to tackle it (usually, but that discussion is a separate thing entirely). What could possibly entice end game players who have done everything and also mostly have everything? It has to be a reward difficult or impossible to get anywhere else.
But if we place rewards like that in the content, it *must* be sufficiently difficult that very few players can actually complete it, at least initially. That number can slowly grow over time, but if it is too high, those rewards become economy distorting. So we increase the difficulty of the content high enough so that only the strongest players with the strongest rosters and the best strategy can complete it.
What about revives? If players use revives, they can lower the difficulty. To some degree, that's fine, but beyond a certain point unlimited use of revives lowers the difficulty too low. So just cap the number of revives and call it a day, right?
Cap them to what? If we make the cap very low, then it is possible that the vast majority of players will *never* attempt the content ever. That's problematic because there are only so many dev hours in the day. You presume that even Everest content will be done by the top 1% of 1%, but eventually that number will grow to the top 1% or maybe top 5%, because it is otherwise impossible to cost justify having a team of developers work on content only a few dozen players will ever complete.
You also have to consider monetization of the game. While you don't *want* players to just spend their way through, if players are consistently prevented from spending where *they* feel its appropriate, you will threaten the revenue base of the game. To repeat: you don't *want* them to spend, but you can't *completely block* their spending. So where you place the cap is an extremely complex question, and one that will have to be revisited with every piece of content you make.
You might say, well this is easy, just do X. Nope, that's not how this works. Kabam is not a hive mind, Kabam is a company with different developers in charge of different things with different ideas and different responsibilities. If you want to implement an item cap on Everest content, you will have to justify that specific cap. You will have to convince the content designers that that cap is appropriate for that content. You will have to convince the game economy people that it is consistent with the game economy, and the monetization people that it is not one too many straws on the monetization camel's back. There are a lot of people who have a say in how an item cap will affect all parts of the game, and they all don't have to agree with you. And you will have to do this over and over again with every piece of content you create.
Even *if* they wanted to implement an item cap, that's not straight forward or easy. And you still have the question hanging out there "why do we have an easy to autopilot infinite revive farm in the game?" It isn't just affecting Everest content, that's just the most obvious and most detrimental symptom. If you're going to tackle that symptom anyway, why not tackle it at its source, and eliminate all side effects simultaneously?
So just because they didn't implement an item cap, doesn't prove they have other motives than the stated one, and doesn't prove its about making money. It just proves this is a complex balancing problem, like most balancing problems, and the *obvious* solution was to tackle it at the source.
1 -100k players getting 3 a day.
2 -50k players getting 6 a day.
3 -25k players getting 12 a day.
4 -10k players getting 30 a day.
5 -5k players getting 60 a day.
Looking at that breaks down, IMO the first three are a small enough revive number to matter. Scenario 4 is enough revives to matter but it's only 2% of players. Scenario 5 isn't very feasible and it's only 1% of players.
Is this really that big of an issue?
But the real noticeable thing was how "easy" EoP was described as being compared to SoP. In real terms, EoP was much more difficult than SoP. But the attitude was almost completely reversed in the interval between the two. SoP was treated as something if you couldn't do, you just weren't good enough. EoP was often described as something everyone should be able to do (within the target audience of course), unless they were unwilling to put in the time to get it done.
The potion arms race has been going on for a very long time: that's not new. What I think is new is that farming finally won outright.
And I didnt even consider the units yet, so I dont think anybody is going to go low on revives, but you will have to obtain them from other ways instead of just auto farming Act 2 and 3, and you will have to prepare yourself more for each impossible fight so you are more efficient than ever, and I was preparing myself to do the Carina Challenges 3 and some of the Carina Challenges 2, I am affected by this change but the fact that Im not able to farm revives, what Im going to do? Just farm them from other areas and wait a little more to do that content.
And the point that people make about "Yeah but top players need to do it as soon as possible", dude, Kabam waited a ton to drop this Everest Content, you think you wont have time to farm units and 4h Crystals and Revives for the next Everest Content? You will have time enough, Im pretty sure, and If you are at the top players, then you dont need really revives because you have most of the content done, and the one they release usually is not that hard to need more than 10 revives maybe? And thats already a ton of revives.
I think people is looking at this change like they are not getting any revives besides the ones they buy, when that is not going to be the case.
And I was watching ContestChampion and BG himself talked about this, he said that he did all the content this years without the revive farming, so he thinks that we will be fine, and he is a F2P player, Im not gonna talk about this anymore because I think if you really think about this, you will notice that its not really that big of a deal, makes things slower but not that much
What constitutes frenzied? If it was trivialized, what was your reasonable expectation that the farmers failed to meet? What makes for spamming revives? Would you consider me immediately reviving twice in the span of a minute at the first fight after going in and getting killed by their initial combo twice in a row while my champ stands there unresponsive, spamming? What if the same thing happened on almost every fight?
Go for it. Won't miss what I didn't know about and I likely wouldn't be able to complete it anyway without having enough revives to feel comfortable even starting it.
That's what it read like to me.
Maybe a 2nd effort that tries a little harder (at all) to evoke a positive reaction and provides some clarification would be good.
A couple factors at play there. The vocal minority on YouTube, Twitter, and here misrepresent the difficulty of content. "It was pretty easy. It only took like 3000 units and I was able to get my 34th rank 4 with the rewards" or "It wasn't so bad, I just farmed a couple hundred revives in the middle of the work day (so I could record a perfect run for my channel or plow through it for maximum Day 1 views)."
The overstatement of the power of Hercules. "Just use Hercules. What? You died? With Hercules? You're hopeless, I guess." Hercules is the next "Just Quake it" "Just Ghost it" "Just Corvus it" "Just Aegon it" "Just Scarlet Witch it"
I don't begrudge these players who find the game easy, but it is worth pointing out that their experiences are not likely the same as the majority of players.
A.k.a how many days exactly do i have to farm for abyss last 2 paths?
P.s How is the world would i be able to do abyss with like 30 revives if i cant farm more? I am really worried i may never be able to explore abyss now. I will not put 5000 units into abyss when there will be like 2 generic awakenings and a CHOOSE THE CHAMP YOU WANT crystal for 5000 in july or october.
I was able to get him down.
Now with revive farming, I can complete content and feel good and have fun playing the game. If I have to go back to the days of using units to revive, instead of buying offers, then I don’t know if I want to keep playing.
I spend about $500 a year on the game. I guess that is not enough to keep the lights on. Just tell us you are hurting for money instead coming up a long winded story and “compromise” that only benefits you.
I would call it a “dollar democracy”. It’s the consumer that keeps MCOC running, if this decision causes players to allocate their money elsewhere, it’s quite obviously not the correct decision on Kabam’s part.
I agree that they don’t have to submit to all our demands (we do make some absurd requests at times), but if they release the revive nerf and apothecary quest without any improvements it would suggest deafness towards the communities opinion. We aren’t asking for 5 lvl 3 revives per day, but 1 lvl 1 revive a day and some level 1 potions is honestly useless for most players.
This way you stop the "spamming" of everest content going forward while still keeping the effort made in this new apocethary relevant.
As it stands the players who haven't done the eop gauntlet etc etc will be at a bit of a disadvantage when they do go to do the content as theyve not being able to farm them revives like those who have already done it that way. If something like I suggested was to happen the current existing content that many have "spammed their way through" would still be an option for them to do the same way.
Everyone wins 🤷♂️
How are we supposed to clear content that takes 50 revives when the stash limit is 15? And the 4 crystals drop 1 revive every 200 crystals.. maybe make this much larger so we can save over months to clear content?
What if you actually look at the health potions, take some basic math classes and realize they are worthless with R4 6* or higher. An entire stash of potions to heal 1 champ.
So many on the verge of quitting. Please stop making this decision easier for us.
We are, all of us who discuss the game publicly, a tiny, practically inconsequential minority of the full playerbase. Until we start to tilt the playing field in a direction. Nobody cares if twelve people on the forums thinks Star Lord is the best champ in the game. Until a few dozen people blindly follow them, and cause a few hundred friends and alliance mates to start chasing him, causing even more players to assume that where they go the herd should follow.
We only see the forums, the Reddit, the tiny tiny speck of tweets that float by. The devs see what all the thousands of players of the game are collectively doing. They also don't care what a few dozen people do, but they do care when they start to see the herd move.
It is also very hard to overstate the power of Hercules in this context. He is not the totality of the problem. However, for a lot of content the totality of the problem is that unlimited revives makes the impossible just expensive, and Hercules makes the expensive cheap. Unlimited revives is allowing people to take their math final home with them. Hercules is handing them a calculator with the test before they leave.